DM approval of a Gish build

[keeper2161]

So I have been researching a Dread Necromancer gish build for the last few weeks. I have posted a couple different threads of this forum to polish it and you have all done a fantastic job of polishing it. This is the end result of my research. My question to everyone is would you approve this in one of your adventures?

Now I have ground rules simply so that Your responses are orderly and so that I can make sense of them.

1: The first word should simply be a yes or a no. Yes if you would agrees to everything out right and I mean everything, as in change nothing.

2: If yes you don't need to say more but you can i don't mind it.

3: If no first state why. Then state what it would take for you to approve it.

I am looking for veteran DMs. People who have a lot under there belt. This build is highly dependent on DM interpretation.

So this is the build.

Race: Naenhoon Illumian

Class: Dread Necromancer 8/ Abjurant Champion 4/ Tainted Scholar 1/ Incantatrix 7

At 1st level take two flaws: pathetic (-2 to an attribute, con), meager fortitude (-3 fort)

1st: Extend spell, Magical Training, Versatile Spellcasting

2nd: Take another flaw Vulnerable (-1 AC) for feat Combat Casting

3rd: Smiting Spell

6th: Persistent Spell

9th: Quicken Spell

12th: Rapid Metamagic

15th:?

18th:?

Illumians have the subtype human. That allows for the feat Magical training.

At level three become a necropolitan. Have the ritual done by a Dread necromancer that is at least 8th level. Have the Dread Necromancer have the feat Fell Energy. Have the Dread Necromancer cast Consecrate With Fell Energy on a evil altar. At the end of the ritual my character would have a 1d12+6 HP/HD plus a +4 to strength and dexterity because of the Dread Necromancer's class feature Undead Mastery. The Corpse Crafting feat line wouldn't work because this is a ritual not a spell.

Before I became a necropolitan say at level 1,2 or even before that, I would ask to partake in the Faerie Mysteries Initiate ritual. It say that its in the region of elves but it doesn't actually say you have to be a elf to take part in it. Just that you have to meet an elf of the region or be in the region. I would change it so that instead of gaining a bonus to health from Con it would be Int.

Because of Magical Training and Versatile Spellcasting I have access to any Wizard spell. At the same time every day I would persist Wrathstrike. Allowing my melee attacks to be melee touch attacks. If I get a item that increase the number of turning/rebuking attempts I can also persist haste. I would also research mage armor and turn it into a Abjurant spell instead of a conjuration spell. The spells Shield and Mage Armor stack. One is a Shield and one is armor. Abjurant Champion allows me to add my Abjurant Champion level to each. Combined they add a 16 AC bonus to my character. Both are level 1 spells that because of Versatile Spellcasting I would cast as level 2 spells at the cost of four level 1 spell slots.

I would ask you to wave the feat requirement for Incantatrix Iron Will because at level 13 I already would have a very high will. If not then I ask to take a flaw at level 13 so that I can get Iron Will.

This characters would be Lawful neutral. He would be Lawful Good if not for his methods. He will use any method to protect those who can't protect themselves even if it mean giving up his body, mind, and soul. He is honorable and kind hearted but believes that if sacrifices must be made let him be the one who makes them. In his mind what is his soul compared to the tens of thousands of other. While not following Wee Jas he pays his respects to her as in his mind she is the only god that is willing to use whatever means to finish the job and not let morals get in the way. In his mind morals get in the way of protecting those that can not protect themselves. He not hesitant to raise the village's dead if it means stopping the bandits from wiping out the village even it means he will be hated and hunted. He believes in justice and laws but sometimes you must break some laws to defend the weak but only in dire emergencies. He would wield a great sword and he would wear light armor until level 9. Beginning at level 3 he would wear a hate of disguise so as not to cause trouble with his appearance. If the other party members did not like undead he had have to constantly be disguised. Although I would think he could convince a paladin to not kill him and keep his secret because of his motive. As this character is not evil only using evil means to do good. He wouldn't tell anyone his secret until he was sure that they wouldn't mind or that he was sure he could convince them.

I believe that is everything. If I have forgotten anything I will add it.

EDIT: I plan to throw out tainted scholar

[sideswipe]

no. because regardless of everything else, you have three flaws, you can only take flaws at first level, they are representative of your natural flaws. not something you suddenly feel after killing a gnoll. on top of that you are purposely limited to two. and i support this due to how broken taking more can be.

i would approve this if i felt that character development in just the few fights that level 1-2 is was inclusive of a highly extensive realisations of you not being as good at defending yourself as you think and a huge loss in confidence. the sort of confidence loss you could imagine from a super hero losing all their powers and feeling useless (in magnitude as an example, not something i would expect to happen in game). but you would have about 10 fights for that development at the most so it is not likely i would award a level 2 flaw.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, for multiple reasons:

You have more than two flaws. I understand that your particular DM may be making an exception for this.

You're planning on being undead with Tainted Scholar, which is game-breakingly powerful since that removes the drawbacks of taint and there's no upper limit to how much taint you could accumulate.

You've included Incantatrix, which is a game-breaking class that most groups don't want to deal with.

Furthermore, you cannot count on only taking a single level of Tainted Scholar. Once you have a single level of it, every time you gain a new level you have to roll a Will save (DC 10 + Depravity score) to not take another level of Tainted Scholar. Considering being undead means there's no drawbacks for high taint and you have no upper limit to your depravity score, plus you use your depravity score to determine bonus spells and it may increase every time you cast a spell, this is very likely to be a save that's impossible for you to make. You could find yourself forced to take nothing but Tainted Scholar levels for the rest of your career.

[keeper2161]

The rules say you can take more flaws beyond first level if the dm approves it.

[sideswipe]

The rules say you can take more flaws beyond first level if the dm approves it.

true, but it would have to be a huge amount of character development, or a noob dm who does not know that feats =/= flaws in loss of power gain in power.

[Pluto!]

You can get +100 to all attributes if the DM approves it, but I wouldn't make a build expecting a DM to approve it.

On your build, No, due to use of the inherently broken Taint variant rules, and the merely inherently unbalanced flaw variant. The two something-for-nothing flaw choices further strengthen that no. Abusive treatment of the Versatile Spellcaster feat's wording would also be a no-go. Losing those three details would be the starting point for me to consider it, but I suspect they would rip the heart from this build.

EDIT: Waiving Iron Will in order to give free Incantatrixes access is funny, though RAW have the Otyugh Hole which isn't much better.

[keeper2161]

Also I never understood why Incantatrix was game breaking. I don't mind giving up tainted scholar that was just a bonus if I could.

[keeper2161]

The heart of this build is magical training and versatile spellcasting and smiting spell

[keeper2161]

So the issues are Tainted scholar, Incantatrix, and the flaws.

[Aegis013]

No.

You have more than two flaws, plus the thing Biffoniacus_Furiou said regarding to Tainted Scholar holds true. The combo of undead Tainted Scholar + Incantatrix is too insane to see real play at my table, even though Incantatrix alone wouldn't be, and Tainted Scholar might not be depending on circumstance.

Lastly, it's hugely unlikely you'll find a friendly 8th level Dread Necro with all of the necessary things you said who would happily perform the ritual for you to make you stronger and then let you go on your merry way.

I absolutely would not waive the requirement for Incanatrix. That is an extremely powerful prestige class and having a feat tax is sensible. You could potentially get around it via an adventure in an Otyugh Hole to pick it up by other means.

In order to allow this at my table, you'd have to lose Tainted Scholar, and there's no guarantee you won't be subjected to the Dread Necro's nefarious plans to turn you into his/her powerful minion. Which is exactly what somebody willing to perform the explicitly evil Necropolitan ritual would do. You wouldn't gain anything for the third flaw, and you would have to have the prerequisite feats for Incantatrix.

[keeper2161]

The Necropolitan ritual isn't evil it just hurts a lot. I could get it done at my Illumian's cabal. Look up Gravewisper cabal

[Aegis013]

Also I never understood why Incantatrix was game breaking. I don't mind giving up tainted scholar that was just a bonus if I could.

The reason is because it's easy to boost Spellcraft to a high enough level where Incantatrix 3 gives you nearly unlimited Persistent Spell (only limited by your spell slots, effectively) on buffs and various other effects. It has a lot of other good abilities as well.

[keeper2161]

I picked it because it was a full spellcasting and because it gave bonus metamagic feats. I wouldn't use it to break the game, breaking games isn't fun.

[Aegis013]

The Necropolitan ritual isn't evil it just hurts a lot. I could get it done at my Illumian's cabal. Look up Gravewisper cabal

Libris Mortis pg. 115
Under "Ritual of Crucimigration"
"...Upon hearing the petitioner's last breath, the ritual leader calls forth the names of evil powers and gods to forge a link with the Negative Energy Plane, and then impales the petitioner."

Emphasis Mine.

[keeper2161]

But they aren't your powers. A neutral person can do the ritual.

[nedz]

No and No.
It depends upon the house rules.

In one group I play with we have very light houserules, in this group you would fail by having any flaws. This group tends to create characters of about the same tier. This group are unlikely to admit undead characters or Dread Necromancers. This group are unlikely to use Tainted Scholar or Incantatrix, I even had one guy think twice about Abjurant Champion — because it looked too good, his view may change on this because we have someone playing a Druid in the current game (only at level 2 so far). We have two DMs who alternate, of which I am one.

The other group contains a mix of optimisers and non-optimisers (pathologically so) so I have to reign some things in.
For this group the following will be banned in the next campaign I will DM

Tainted Scholar
Incantatrix
Flaws
Versatile Spellcasting
Quicken (Casters don't need the extra help especially since this comes online just when they start to dominate anyway)
Wee-Jas (wrong pantheon - so a flavour point really)

T1s will also be banned FWIW.

YMMV with these, but ignoring the Iron Will pre-req for Incantatrix is also a non-starter as are having three flaws — in any game I can envisage running.

[keeper2161]

Also I don't plan to break the game, I just thought all this was a interesting way to use the rules to make a gish build that most people wouldn't of thought.

[Aegis013]

I picked it because it was a full spellcasting and because it gave bonus metamagic feats. I wouldn't use it to break the game, breaking games isn't fun.

Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarians break some games. There are other PrCs that give bonus metamagic feats. Why not find a different one?


But they aren't your powers. A neutral person can do the ritual.

They are evil powers, and neutral people can commit evil deeds. A guy going to that length is going to gain something. In the case of a Dread Necromancer, the most likely gain is a powerful minion of your own creation.


Also I don't plan to break the game, I just thought all this was a interesting way to use the rules to make a gish build that most people wouldn't of thought.

These cheese-tastic tactics are well known, but frequently not used due to being unwelcome in how powerful they are.

[keeper2161]

You don't control Necropolitan the necropolitan ritual is a business deal you hand them money they make you undead. Both parties walk away. Plus my gravewisper cabal circumvents this.

[Aegis013]

You don't control Necropolitan the necropolitan ritual is a business deal you hand them money they make you undead. Both parties walk away. Plus my gravewisper cabal circumvents this.

If I were playing a neutral DN, I would consider why this person wants so bad to be undead that they will actually go through torture. I would then proceed to think "Maybe it's best if I keep them on a short leash."

It's not necessarily a business deal, and even if it is, double-crosses do happen in business.

[keeper2161]

Also for Incantatrix in my mind it is logical to get rid of the Iron Will because of my characters already very high will. It still wouldn't be free it still requires Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks which is a cross class skill for dread necromancer.

[AMFV]

I'd probably approve it, but then again my stance is generally to approve things and the ban when there is a problem at the table, since then it gets easier to have that discussion with players since they can see the unbalancing effects and because that way I don't wind up banning things that don't need to be banned.

[keeper2161]

But me being a Illumian and being in a cabal that specializes in necromancy it wouldn't be hard to find a fellow Dread Necro to preform the ritual and they would be happy to do it and wouldn't try to control me.

[keeper2161]

I like you AMFV thats the way I DM when I do DM.

[keeper2161]

And to why I chose incantatrix simply because I found it and it was what I needed. Why continue looking for something that works for you. I still don't see incantatrix as broken. I see it as a perfect class for this build. Minus Tainted scholar which I will remove. I didn't like that class all that much but was told to check it out and that it would boost my spellcasting.

[Aegis013]

But me being a Illumian and being in a cabal that specializes in necromancy it wouldn't be hard to find a fellow Dread Necro to preform the ritual and they would be happy to do it and wouldn't try to control me.

I don't see what being an Illumian has to do with it.

Just because you're part of a necromancer group doesn't mean your safe from selfishness. It depends on the setting/DM. But in this build, you're assuming that these things are available to you, risk free. I'm trying to say that they might not be.

[Pluto!]

Also for Incantatrix in my mind it is logical to get rid of the Iron Will because of my characters already very high will. It still wouldn't be free it still requires Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks which is a cross class skill for dread necromancer.
You're asking for a handout for access to the most powerful class in the game in a build with feat selection clearly designed to abuse that class's broken features.

If you're trying to appeal to RAW to get this build in, it's not going to happen, because the rules don't give free feats.

If you're appealing to the DM's judgment to tweak the rules in your favor because of an intuitive feel for how the game should work, good luck with the undead+tainted scholar, undead+pathetic/meager fortitude or versatile spellcaster+magical aptitude combinations.

But FYI, the Otyugh Hole that's been mentioned in this thread is a location in Complete Scoundrel where you can pay 3000 gp to buy the Iron Will feat. So at least the RAW based argument for your build could hold water.

[keeper2161]

Also it was Biffoniacus_Furiou that suggested Tainted scholar to me.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361875-Finishing-off-this-gish-build

So strange that you would reject it.

[AMFV]

You're asking for a handout for access to the most powerful class in the game in a build with feat selection clearly designed to abuse that class's broken features.

If you're trying to appeal to RAW to get this build in, it's not going to happen, because the rules don't give free feats.

If you're appealing to the DM's judgment to tweak the rules in your favor because of an intuitive feel for how the game should work, good luck with the undead+tainted scholar, undead+pathetic/meager fortitude or versatile spellcaster+magical aptitude combinations.

But FYI, the Otyugh Hole that's been mentioned in this thread is a location in Complete Scoundrel where you can pay 3000 gp to buy the Iron Will feat. So at least the RAW based argument for your build could hold water.

But also worth noting is that he asking for access to it with a poor choice of chassis, and adding a ton of vulnerabilities (being undead is no picnic). As a DM I'd approve it, but there'd be a number of issues he'd have to deal with, undead have a lot of vulnerabilities, social stigmas and the like, which would be negative for him. Being a DN is already a pretty nasty bad mark, since he doesn't have access to as many of the insane spells as a wizard does.

If he were really trying to exploit the PrC, he'd have gotten Arcane Disciple at least once, but he hasn't so now he can cast better, but still off a bad list.

Edit: Which is a big part of why I don't ban things out of hand, it's not easy to say if a DN fueled Incantatrix will destabilize a game. I mean a Mailman Sorcerer generally doesn't and Incantatrix is essential for that build. So it'd have to see play for us to really be able to get a good idea.

[Aegis013]

But also worth noting is that he asking for access to it with a poor choice of chassis, and adding a ton of vulnerabilities (being undead is no picnic). As a DM I'd approve it, but there'd be a number of issues he'd have to deal with, undead have a lot of vulnerabilities, social stigmas and the like, which would be negative for him. Being a DN is already a pretty nasty bad mark, since he doesn't have access to as many of the insane spells as a wizard does.

If he were really trying to exploit the PrC, he'd have gotten Arcane Disciple at least once, but he hasn't so now he can cast better, but still off a bad list.

His intention is to have access to the entire Wiz/Sor list via Magical Training (gets a spellbook and a few cantrips) plus Versatile Spellcaster. It's a lot more insanely powerful than Arcane Disciple.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Also it was Biffoniacus_Furiou that suggested Tainted scholar to me.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361875-Finishing-off-this-gish-build

So strange that you would reject it.

That I would recommend it does not mean I would permit it in a game I run.


You don't control Necropolitan the necropolitan ritual is a business deal you hand them money they make you undead. Both parties walk away. Plus my gravewisper cabal circumvents this.

Rebuke Undead means he could indeed take control over you if he wanted to.

[AMFV]

His intention is to have access to the entire Wiz/Sor list via Magical Training (gets a spellbook and a few cantrips) plus Versatile Spellcaster. It's a lot more insanely powerful than Arcane Disciple.

If it worked... but it doesn't. It changes the way you "Prepare" spells, not the way you "Know" spells, which while that could work theoretically for a Wizard (since their known spells are all the spells in their spellbook), it doesn't work for a Dread Necromancer since they "Know All the Spells on Their List" and that doesn't add anything to their list.

[keeper2161]

It seems you guys are making it seem like I created this build to specifically break the game. I didn't I choose all these class because I like the dread necromancer and they go well with the image of the character I had in my mind minus the Tainted Scholar. None of the things in this build are against the rules or even variant rules. This is the first time I have ever done research on a class because none of the other gish builds fit my characters personality. I don't want to break the game, I keep saying that and yet people are ignoring that, just because other people have broken the game using these classes and feats doesn't mean I will. I like all the feed back and thank you for it but it seems like you guys have some venom when you speak about these things. And the Illumian's are about sharing knowledge with other Illumians even the necromancy cabal wouldn't try to control another Illumian

[keeper2161]

The magical training and verastile spellcasting is a debated topic.

[jaydubs]

I'm mostly a PF player, so I don't have much input as to balance or builds. But maybe if you post your character concept, they could recommend something that both fits your concept and would be allowed at most tables?

[AMFV]

The magical training and verastile spellcasting is a debated topic.

There's nothing in the wording of any of those spells that changes the way you "know spells" and Versatile Spellcaster requires that you know them, so it's not really that complex a topic, now there are lots of snazzy tricks that are based on odd wording, but this one is a lot more dubious.

[keeper2161]

Magical Training gives you a spell book with three level 0 spells in it. In theory you could scribe fireball into it. You would know how to cast it and it would technically be on your spells less you just don't have any prepared spells slots to cast it. Versatile spellcaster you gain the access to give up lower level spell slots to cast a one level high spell you know

[keeper2161]

The personality of the character is near the bottom of the first post.

[Aegis013]

It seems you guys are making it seem like I created this build to specifically break the game. I didn't I choose all these class because I like the dread necromancer and they go well with the image of the character I had in my mind minus the Tainted Scholar. None of the things in this build are against the rules or even variant rules. This is the first time I have ever done research on a class because none of the other gish builds fit my characters personality. I don't want to break the game, I keep saying that and yet people are ignoring that, just because other people have broken the game using these classes and feats doesn't mean I will. I like all the feed back and thank you for it but it seems like you guys have some venom when you speak about these things. And the Illumian's are about sharing knowledge with other Illumians even the necromancy cabal wouldn't try to control another Illumian

This build is filled with very game-breaking abilities, used normally for breaking games. Suspicion goes with the territory of knowledge and experience.

Nobody has made explicit claims that you intend to break the game, but we look at this character and are concerned it will happen anyway. Persisted Wraithstrike is extremely potent, and at a lot of tables I've seen, would frustrate the DM (every DM I've ever gamed with who wasn't me), overshadow party members, and generally unbalance the game, for example.

A lot of optimizers on this board are also fans of "re-fluffing" if you can find less controversial classes that still support your idea and concept, you'll be a lot more likely to get approval on your build. After all, you asked us if we would approve it. We're trying to give honest feedback on our own opinions.

We're not trying to be mean or have venom, but you did ask for our opinions and explanations. I apologize if anything I've said came across that way, and if it did, please point out specifics that I might be able to improve my own communication techniques and to avoid unintended venom in the future.

On the Illumian topic, just because you're Illumian doesn't necessarily mean the whole cabal would be, and it's even less likely you'll find the aforementioned DN who is also Illumian. It's just additional specifications means fewer people can fit the criteria.

[keeper2161]

Also the reason for Magical training and Versatile spellcaster is to get the spells Shield and Mage armor and other touch spells to help out my build. To be able to get spells in my spell book I would have to find scrolls or pay a wizard so i can look at his spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's nothing in the wording of any of those spells that changes the way you "know spells" and Versatile Spellcaster requires that you know them, so it's not really that complex a topic, now there are lots of snazzy tricks that are based on odd wording, but this one is a lot more dubious.

The methods for putting spells into a spellbook includes learning (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/learn?s=t) (i.e. acquiring knowledge of) those spells. You do indeed know any spell you put into your spellbook, though casting them via Versatile Spellcaster may require you to open your spellbook and read that spell from it as you cast it.

[torrasque666]

See, problem is, a Dread Necro doesn't use a spellbook, and while Magical Training does give you one if you go with Wizard style casting, it still says nothing about being able to scribe into it, as only wizards(or chameleons emulating a wizard, or some other class that I'm not aware of that uses a spellbook) can scribe into a wizard's spellbook. That and it does have racial and regional prereqs, neither of which an illumian fulfills. Unless when it lists a race it means the subtype instead. In which case it would.

Magical Training says nothing about being able to LEARN spells like a Wizard or a Sorcerer, just that you KNOW those spells like they do.

[keeper2161]

Illumian is a subtype human so it can take the feat. My group tends to play in custom worlds so we tend to wave the regional things.

[keeper2161]

Versatile spellcaster says you cast a spell you know using two one level lower spells slots.

[keeper2161]

With taking the feat magical training you know how to scribe in a spell book.

EDIT: With the Illumian cabal there are numerous gravewisper cabals, gravewisper is a type of cabal not one single cabal. I could ask other cabal by say sending multiple ravens asking the other gravewisper cabals.

[torrasque666]

1: Use the edit button.
2: it says
You have a spellbook with three 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/ wizard list. You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does. it says nothing about knowing them like a wizard does. Or being able to scribe them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

See, problem is, a Dread Necro doesn't use a spellbook, and while Magical Training does give you one if you go with Wizard style casting, it still says nothing about being able to scribe into it, as only wizards(or chameleons emulating a wizard, or some other class that I'm not aware of that uses a spellbook) can scribe into a wizard's spellbook. That and it does have racial and regional prereqs, neither of which an illumian fulfills. Unless when it lists a race it means the subtype instead. In which case it would.

Magical Training says nothing about being able to LEARN spells like a Wizard or a Sorcerer, just that you KNOW those spells like they do.

Magical Training gives you a spellbook which you've already put a few 0-level spells into, and a few 0-level spell slots to prepare those spells in. The Rules Compendium repeats the entire section on putting spells into a spellbook from Chapter Ten: Magic in the PHB, except it replaces every instance of Wizard with any character who prepares spells from a spellbook. Thus the rules on how wizards prepare spells have been updated to be extended any character who prepares spells from a spellbook, including anyone with the spellbook version of Magical Training.

Thus Magical Training gives him a spellbook and the capability of preparing spells from it, and by extension per the Rules Compendium the capability of learning (defined by gaining knowledge of) and scribing additional spells into it.

[torrasque666]

Fair enough. Guess I'm wrong, but then again I had that feeling anyway.

[AMFV]

Magical Training gives you a spellbook which you've already put a few 0-level spells into, and a few 0-level spell slots to prepare those spells in. The Rules Compendium repeats the entire section on putting spells into a spellbook from Chapter Ten: Magic in the PHB, except it replaces every instance of Wizard with any character who prepares spells from a spellbook. Thus the rules on how wizards prepare spells have been updated to be extended any character who prepares spells from a spellbook, including anyone with the spellbook version of Magical Training.

So this is another crappy Rules Compendium thing... ah... that makes sense. That's definitely arguable although I would be very very not likely to accept that particular reasoning at my table since there is no productive value to it.

[keeper2161]

With the Illumian. There are no non Illumian living in Illumian cabals.

[Chambers]

[DM mode]

Tainted Scholar would be banned because of the horrible abuse of Undead + Taint Spellcasting. The Pathetic flaw for this character wouldn't be allowed as there's literally zero drawback once you become undead. I'd allow the character to have the Flaw until they became Undead, then they could either lose the Flaw and the Bonus Feat or change the Flaw. There'd be a maximum of 2 Flaws.

Necropolitan: I'd charge the character extra gold and time spent to find the specific Dread Necromancer you want to perform the ritual, as well as have the NPC charge the character for any additional spellcasting related to the ritual. The cost for the specific Dread Necro would follow the Planar Binding cost formula as a guideline.

The Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat would carry serious RP consequences for your partner after you become an undead as they would be engaging in necrophilia. This is of course dependent on the campaign; some places might not have a problem with it.


Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods.

Magical Training gives you a spellbook but you are not a wizard therefore you cannot add spells to your spellbook in order to cast them via Versatile Spellcaster. This also nixes the ability to cast an Abjuration version of Mage Armor (though I would allow a wizard to independently research it).

Iron Will would not be waived, though there's a magical location that gives it.

Edit: Apparently I'm late to the Magical Training party. Need to find my copy of Rules Compendium...

[Gabrosin]

No.

I appreciate your desire to craft a super-powerful gish, but as others have mentioned already, the reason it sounds like you're going to break the game is that this is the sort of build that breaks the game, unless your other party members and your DM are preparing characters exactly like this one.

You have three flaws where you can only have two.

You're missing Iron Will for Incantatrix.

The change to Mage Armor would probably be okay, though I'd recommend being good aligned and just using Greater Luminous Armor.

Tainted Scholar, of course, would be way out.

Finally, I don't allow persisting of Wraithstrike in my games, and I don't recommend attempting it as a player. You're taking away one of the DM's levers for setting encounter difficulty, which is AC. The DM would have to use only enemies with abnormally high touch ACs or solid miss chances or both.

I'm actually okay with the two-feat access to general Wizard spells, unlike some others in this thread. But your power level is way beyond what I'm used to seeing.

Why, exactly, do you want to gish as a DN? Don't you have, you know, undead to melee for you?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat would carry serious RP consequences for your partner after you become an undead as they would be engaging in necrophilia. This is of course dependent on the campaign; some places might not have a problem with it.

You perform your Faerie Mysteries Initiate ritual one time when you take the feat, and never have to do it ever again unless you want to change the effect of the feat.

[keeper2161]

Well the DN for two reasons

1. I just like it
2. And for the turning/rebukeing with Illumian

I don't plan to raise an army of undead but I like having the option. If you wouldn't let wrathstrike (which is no different from someone making a ring of wrathstike which wouldn't cost much being a level 2 spell or a wand of wraithstrike) I would probably go persist magic weapon or something similar. Also is this the Incantatrix class everyone has a problem with cause I think there might be two editions and I think the link is a different one.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803

EDIT: There is one Incantatrix in player's guide to faerun and one in the magic of faerun and to be honest the one in the player's guide seems really weak unless you can roll 40 plus spellcraft.

EDIT: though I guess by the time people take the class they already have a high spellcraft and items to boost it.

[Chambers]

You perform your Faerie Mysteries Initiate ritual one time when you take the feat, and never have to do it ever again unless you want to change the effect of the feat.

Ah, much less of a problem then. "That's my former Significant Other. Wasn't always undead, you know."