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Julius
2007-03-01, 11:13 PM
I'd like to throw a Dragon at my 20th level party that has 1000 or more hit points. I've decided I can spend gold on him however I like, so long as it is within reason (no epic items). He's also got 12 feats.

Starting with an Old Red Dragon (con score 25), I can get it up to 770 hit points: +5 Inherit bonus from a Manual of Bodily Health, +6 Amulet of Health, Improved Toughness, Willing Deformity (BoVD), and Deformity: Obese (BoVD), cast Rage on himself.

Any ideas how I can get the remaining 230 hp? Or at least close the gap a little more? I want this guy to simply not die.

Cybren
2007-03-01, 11:14 PM
That plan won't work to well when he fails a save and dies despite his HP...

Macrovore
2007-03-01, 11:14 PM
i think you can take improved toughness more than once.

ajkkjjk52
2007-03-01, 11:17 PM
That plan won't work to well when he fails a save and dies despite his HP...

Yeah, if they're powerful enough to be facing this guy at all, isn't there someone who can cast slay living or the like?

Cybren
2007-03-01, 11:18 PM
Anyway: it's a monster. Just say "it has 1000 hp".
I think i solved the thread?

That Lanky Bugger
2007-03-01, 11:20 PM
Psychofeedback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychofeedback.htm) might help, but it's really a temporary solution.

oriong
2007-03-01, 11:20 PM
Well, with Constitution that high I don't think there's any threat of that. It has 28 HD, good fortitude save and a constituion of 36 (total bonus of +29) and SR 29, before any save boosting bits of magic.

Give it several Improved Toughness feats (each is an extra +HD of of hit points).

Also, a simple solution might be to just roll it's attributes, or use point buy. Remember that 25 con is it's base attributes, if you give it 17 then thats a boost of 116 right there.

marjan
2007-03-01, 11:30 PM
Improved Toughness won't work. It can't be taken more then once.

Ashdate
2007-03-01, 11:32 PM
An Old Dragon is can user Sorcerer spells as caster level 11th (up to 5th level spells), use some magic to get him some more. False Life (1d10+11 HP), Bear's Endurance (+4 Con)

- Eddie

Fax Celestis
2007-03-01, 11:33 PM
Chasing Perfection (+6 to all stats).

Jack Mann
2007-03-01, 11:36 PM
Give it a rod of chaining. Give it reach spell as a feat Have it cast reach vampiric touch on, say, a commoner, and use the rod of chaining to modify it further. That's good for around 17.5 to the first and half that to eleven of his friends, for an average of 113.75. Just costs a level five spell slot.

EDIT: Chasing Perfection and Bear's Endurance doesn't stack with the amulet of health. They're all enhancement bonuses.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-01, 11:38 PM
Oh. Damn.

Wellllllllll...Craft an Ioun stone that provides a +8 luck bonus to constitution?

oriong
2007-03-01, 11:39 PM
Hm, right you are it seems. Probably the best way is just to go to Very Old (only +1 to CR, and if you're comfortable with your party fighting through 1,000 hit points then you're probably confident in their ability) that's 19 hp from HD, +3 from improved toughness, +31 from new con boost, and +39 from con due to higher HD. So that's a total of 92 extra right there. If you do the point buy thing I suggested and you've got 124 extra for 216. Toss on a False Life spell and you'd be set.

Ditto
2007-03-01, 11:44 PM
Toad familiar for +3hp. :smallsmile:

I'm really liking the idea of an obese dragon raging.

oriong
2007-03-01, 11:55 PM
Oh, a scroll of Giant Size and a UMD skill check could get the dragon a big Con boost pretty easily. The disadvantage is that he'll actually shrink, unless the caster level of the scroll is 16 or higher, but the bonuses occur no matter what the creature's original size.

A 13th level scroll will give the dragon Huge size (lowering reach, and natural weapon damage) but it will boost strength by +16 and Con by +4 (+56 to hp).

a 16th level scroll keeps the dragon the same size but gives +24 to strength, and +8 to con (+112 to hp).

at 19th level the dragon gets +32 to strength and +12 to con (168 hp). At this point you are an evil person. Oh, and the dragon's size goes to collosal.

Ted_Stryker
2007-03-01, 11:55 PM
If you're willing to give the dragon epic feats, Epic Toughness is worth +30 hp a pop, and you can give it that feat multiple times. +90 hp for a 28 HD dragon, +120 hp for a 30-31 HD dragon.

Jack Mann
2007-03-01, 11:55 PM
If you go up to Very Old, you've got a caster level of 13, which means that the chained reach vampiric touch gives you fourteen total targets, for a total average of 157.5 damage, assuming you can find some targets with enough hit points. So, hit a lizardfolk village, since the average members can give you a max of 21 hp (the average for your initial target).

Collin152
2007-03-01, 11:57 PM
Toad familiar for +3hp. :smallsmile:

I'm really liking the idea of an obese dragon raging.
I'm thinking an improved toad familiar here. Like say... Frogzilla!
Groouuuubiiiiiightttt!

Skyserpent
2007-03-02, 12:13 AM
... Yeah, why not just throw a 1000hp Dragon AT THEM? I mean, just sic a Wyrm or Great Wyrm on em, Challenge Rating gets pretty fuzzy at higher levels anyway...

Ditto
2007-03-02, 01:07 AM
The better question is, why not THROW a 1000hp dragon at them? If you give the toad enough buffs and some class levels in Hulking Hurler, I bet he could pull it off. :smallbiggrin:

Wippit Guud
2007-03-02, 01:12 AM
1000 hp won't stop a dragon from dying.
Playing the dragon right will.

I once tried to play a dragon vs 6 PCs, without knowin what the PCs had, and with someone else as the DM - so, I'm playing a dragon blind to what's coming against me. And I think I'd win. Sadly, it never happened.

oriong
2007-03-02, 01:23 AM
The better question is, why not THROW a 1000hp dragon at them? If you give the toad enough buffs and some class levels in Hulking Hurler, I bet he could pull it off. :smallbiggrin:

Use the Giant Size spell and the toad grows with you. You know have a Gargantuan toad.

Hario
2007-03-02, 01:29 AM
1000 hp won't stop a dragon from dying.
Playing the dragon right will.

I once tried to play a dragon vs 6 PCs, without knowin what the PCs had, and with someone else as the DM - so, I'm playing a dragon blind to what's coming against me. And I think I'd win. Sadly, it never happened.

Pfft I was one of the PC's and unless you had Wind wall or killed me (+64 I think to hide from dragons ) you would have been dead in 3 turns, I had a few tricks up my sleeve, I had dragon poisoned arrows (200 of them) with a DC 23 fort save or die and a build that would automatically go through most of your AC and a build that allowed me to make 5-7 attacks a round, yes I know dragon's have good Fort saves but you would roll a 1 somewhere in there, not to mention TLN as a cheezed out druid, you would have been lucky to last 5 rounds Too bad TLN got banned

now back to topic, a Dragon with 600 HP is the same as 1000 HP at that lvl, most PC's go around normal damage by lvl 15

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-03-02, 01:30 AM
I'd just say the dragon has 1000 HP. It's not like everything in the MM's are set in stone and can't be changed/tinkered with. But I'm sure there are better ways to make it not die. The Draconomicon has tips on how to run a good dragon encounter if you're so inclined to read that section (if you have the book).

Thomas
2007-03-02, 01:42 AM
Are we talking about maximum or average hit points?

Why are you using an old dragon? CR 20 against a 20th-level party isn't supposed to be a real challenge.

Great Wyrm Red Dragon, base 40d12+400 hp (av. 660), Con 31. Add +5 inherent bonus (wishes or tomes) and +6 enhancement bonus (item) for Con 42, adding 240 hit points (900). Give it slightly above-average hit point (9 per die), and it's got 1,000 hit points.

Wow, that was easy...

Or give it Improved Toughness twice, for +80 hit points (average now 980), and 7 hit points per hit die (0.5 per die above average).


PS. It will still die. One use of the right spell backed with, say, assay resistance - dead.

oriong
2007-03-02, 01:50 AM
PS. It will still die. One use of the right spell backed with, say, assay resistance - dead.

That depends a lot on whether or not the PCs know what's coming, there are a few 'dragon-killer' like shivering touch, but it's not like basic 'save or die' spells are going to do the job. If they know what they're going up against and the party has the right classes/feats then yeah there's big gaps in it's defenses. but if the party is in any way unprepared then it's a different story.

Leush
2007-03-02, 03:00 AM
Wait, wat wait, give a toad familiar to a 1000 hp dragon? You have a toad with 500hp on your hands??? That just rocks, even if it is completely useless and dies almost immediately, it's still fun. Even more fun if you have a lot of random toads hopping around in the cave, so they don't know which one to target....

Wippit Guud
2007-03-02, 03:40 AM
Pfft I was one of the PC's and unless you had Wind wall or killed me (+64 I think to hide from dragons ) you would have been dead in 3 turns, I had a few tricks up my sleeve, I had dragon poisoned arrows (200 of them) with a DC 23 fort save or die and a build that would automatically go through most of your AC and a build that allowed me to make 5-7 attacks a round, yes I know dragon's have good Fort saves but you would roll a 1 somewhere in there, not to mention TLN as a cheezed out druid, you would have been lucky to last 5 rounds Too bad TLN got banned

Heh.

I don't think so :)


PS. It will still die. One use of the right spell backed with, say, assay resistance - dead.

Again, if the dragon is played right, the circumstances should not present itself. Otherwise... well, there'd be a whole lot less dragons.

I mean... these are supposed to be the signature creatures of the game. They have so much potential, but 99.9% of DMs just throw them around like more XP-fodder...

Roderick_BR
2007-03-02, 06:33 AM
Masters of the Wild have some better Thougness variations, like Dwarven's thoughness and Dragon's thoughness: +5 HP, and +7 HP respectively, I think)
Get something that grants damage reduction also. And rise all his saving throws so he won't be killed by Save-or-Die spells.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-02, 07:55 AM
Why take a red dragon? For the same CR a black dragon has 34 HD.

Thomas
2007-03-02, 08:00 AM
But CR 20 is still too low. A single dragon as an opponent to a 20th-level party? CR 24 is the minimum. CR 26 (great wyrm) is very good indeed.

Telonius
2007-03-02, 11:25 AM
A very long time ago, a Gnome Barbarian was polymorphed into a dragon. A wizard did it, of course. That is now your dragon; rage away.

BlueWizard
2007-03-03, 07:20 AM
Make something up. There are rules for it in the DMG!

okpokalypse
2007-03-03, 02:31 PM
Since you didn't specify Dragon-Alignment ;).

Half-Celestial Great Wyrm Gold Dragon

Stats: 51 Str, 12 Dex, 37 Con, 34 Int, 37 Wis, 36 Cha.

+5 Inherent Con Bonus
+6 Con (Enhancement) via Amulet
+5 Saves (Enhancement) via Ring
+6 Con (Sacred), +5 Saves (Sacred) via Sacred Relic (Ring)

= 54 Con ; +22 Modifier. @ 41 HD, That's 272 Base HP and +902 HP from Con. 1174 HP.

And his saves are more respectable at +54 F, +33 R, +45 W after the +Save items and +Stat Boosts.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-03, 05:10 PM
Heh.

I don't think so :)

Again, if the dragon is played right, the circumstances should not present itself. Otherwise... well, there'd be a whole lot less dragons.

I'm trying to think of what you could have *done*, and I'm not seeing it. They could dispel any spell turnings (their CL is higher than yours), wear an AMF down with several Disjoinings, and the druid could (a) be two force dragons, and (b) hit your reflex save with a very high DC save-or-lose, repeatedly.

At one action to their six (at least; the casters could Shapechange into chokers) I'm just not seeing what you could've done.

Ikkitosen
2007-03-03, 05:17 PM
Yep. Surely half a dozen slightly smaller dragons would be more of a challenge. I bet you their HP would sum to well over 1000 too :smallamused:

Wippit Guud
2007-03-06, 12:55 AM
I'm trying to think of what you could have *done*, and I'm not seeing it. They could dispel any spell turnings (their CL is higher than yours), wear an AMF down with several Disjoinings, and the druid could (a) be two force dragons, and (b) hit your reflex save with a very high DC save-or-lose, repeatedly.

At one action to their six (at least; the casters could Shapechange into chokers) I'm just not seeing what you could've done.

Well, we'll never know...
... unless someone wants to try running it again.

Collin152
2007-03-06, 10:24 PM
Shapechange into chokers? Can you cast spells from that form?

Wippit Guud
2007-03-06, 10:30 PM
Shapechange into chokers? Can you cast spells from that form?

Chokers have hands and mouths.
The Wizards "monster mayhem" has a choker sorceror for one of their monsters. So, yes.

Collin152
2007-03-06, 10:34 PM
Well, give them the class levels, you can assume they can use them, as that's how they learned to do the gestures. But human/oids taking the form of this... Wiry looking octupus-man? I doubt it. But it's just a "cute little house rule" and holds no water here, I suppose.

Kaerou
2007-03-06, 10:46 PM
Give him one of those Brooches what eat up death spells and gives SR.. i forget the name. Increa eits cost some amd make it slot'less.

Theres some more feats in one of the 3.0 books, dragons toughness.

Maybe craft an item like a ring or bracers that casts maximised/empowered false life.