Rogues and other Thief type classes

[zeifly]

Okay, so I have a player who plays a rogue/thief pretty much as all his characters. He gets kind of annoying because he constantly wants to steal EVERYTHING!!! I mean, he even tries to steal from his party members. I've found ways to keep him from stealing from party members (even if it's just the age old "Because I said so" which I really don't like using). Any suggestions of how to kind of corral his thievery? I don't want to detract from his roleplaying, but it is getting kind of tedious when he enters a town and instantly asks to go and steal from everyone in town.

[Vhaidara]

Have him steal from someone. He stole a cursed item that can only trade hands if stolen. If given or sold, it will reappear in the previous owner's possession (now him) the next day at dawn. It also gives him a big stinking penalty on everything relevant to his job (sleight of hand, hide, move silently). All of these are luck penalties.

[Hazrond]

Have him steal from someone. He stole a cursed item that can only trade hands if stolen. If given or sold, it will reappear in the previous owner's possession (now him) the next day at dawn. It also gives him a big stinking penalty on everything relevant to his job (sleight of hand, hide, move silently). All of these are luck penalties.

That seems a bit vindictive, maybe instead have someone notice him stealing and he gets caught, proceed to entire deal where the party has to do something for the local ruler to win his freedom (while he travels belkar-style undercover with the party)

[Vhaidara]

That seems a bit vindictive, maybe instead have someone notice him stealing and he gets caught, proceed to entire deal where the party has to do something for the local ruler to win his freedom (while he travels belkar-style undercover with the party)

Well, there would obviously be a quest arc to get rid of it. I was reminded of the Bad Luck Charm in Dragon Age: Origins, but, looking that up, it didn't actually do anything.

But, the basic summary of my point: this is where you use that fun section of the DMG called cursed items.

[Curmudgeon]

The issue is the player wanting the character to take actions which aren't viable. If the PC wanted to kill other party members that wouldn't be acceptable, and stealing from the people you rely on to help you out of bad situations is also unacceptable (willfully stupid is the way I'd characterize it).

Let the situation unfold, and don't get in the way of the troublesome PC getting killed for cause. Actions should have consequences. It's your job to run the world, and if you're protecting a PC from the consequences of bad choices you're just reinforcing such behavior.

[atomicwaffle]

as a dm, my rule for theft is if you're caught, you lose a hand. Get caught again, lose the other one. You want to act like an idiot, fine. I will treat you like an idiot.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're a player, make a Warforged Psion (Shaper) who uses Psionic Minor Creation to cover all his possessions in Black Lotus Extract. Otherwise as soon as you have in-character knowledge of his thievery just kill the character in his sleep and take your stuff back.

As a DM, explain to the player that there's a big difference between a character who's good at acquiring other people's possessions and a character who cannot restrain himself from grabbing every shiny thing he sees. A professional thief will never act in a way that would indicate to anyone else that this is his chosen profession, because getting away with it is just as important as doing it in the first place. Furthermore, he's not going to steal just anything, only something that he already has a buyer for, or something he knows will further their cause. Think of the movie National Treasure, for example, they needed to steal that to further their cause, not because they just wanted to have it. The alternative to this is a low-life robber who steals to avoid working or to support an addiction or in extreme cases to give to the needy.

Explain to this player that stealing for selfish reasons, which always includes stealing from party members or stealing party loot before it can be split up, is an evil act and will make the character instantly converted to an NPC, because you won't allow that in your game. He can make a sneaky character who's good at acquiring things through illegitimate means, or he can approach the game with a childish video game mentality in which he grabs everything in sight that he may be able to get a few coins for, provided nobody is looking right now, as though there will be no consequences for such actions because he didn't get caught in the act. One player stealing all the loot and especially stealing from party members ruins the game for the other players, and someone who intentionally ruins the fun for everyone else is not welcome to return to this game.

[Troacctid]

If you're a player, make a Warforged Psion (Shaper) who uses Psionic Minor Creation to cover all his possessions in Black Lotus Extract.

Doesn't that have a Craft (Poisonmaking) DC of, like, 35?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Doesn't that have a Craft (Poisonmaking) DC of, like, 35?

"You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item."

If you're going to make a wooden crossbow or catapult you need to make a craft check. Black Lotus Extract is refined vegetable matter, and is not complex according to the definition of that word (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complex?s=t).

[jaydubs]

As has been mentioned, stealing from other players or trying to steal loot that would otherwise fall into party hands, is a problem that should be handled out of character. Just tell him - "You can't steal from the party. It may be fun for you, but it's not fun for the other players. If you want to use your thieving skills, there are plenty of NPCs to go after."

If he wants to spend too much game time on stealing from NPCs, distill it into a series of skill checks and some narrative. For example:

DM: You walk the town streets looking for a wealthy mark. Roll perception.
Player: 23!
DM: You see two opportunities. There's a market in town that caters to nobles throughout the day, ripe for pickpocketing. There's also an estate at the edge of town with poor sight lines you could probably sneak into.
Player: I want to pickpocket the market during the day, and then hit the estate at night.
DM: Okay. You get to the market. Roll sleight of hand.
Player: 29!
DM: You slip through the crowds unnoticed, and your honed thieving skills allow you to relieve many a noble of his money pouch. You pick up 34 gold, a gold ring, and an onyx gem. Add those to your character sheet, and we'll flash forward to the estate. Roll stealth to sneak inside.
Player: *natural 1* Crap.
DM: While trying to sneak inside, you fall smack dab into a group of maids. They spot you, and raise the alarm. While you get away, you know they probably gave your description to the town guards. We're done with thieving for this town. You can try some more next town.

You can get through with that in about 2 minutes. So thief player gets to steal things, and the party doesn't have to wait around for it.

[Curmudgeon]

Explain to this player that stealing for selfish reasons, which always includes stealing from party members or stealing party loot before it can be split up, is an evil act and will make the character instantly converted to an NPC, because you won't allow that in your game.

As has been mentioned, stealing from other players or trying to steal loot that would otherwise fall into party hands, is a problem that should be handled out of character.

I have a standing rule at my table that all characters work together and treat each other (and their cloud of cohorts, hirelings, and assorted hangers-on) as trusted allies.
I'm surprised how many people seem to feel the need for a house rule here rather than just using what's built into the game. Having the PC killed for their actions, and not resurrected because nobody liked them, is plenty adequate to deal with antisocial character behavior. Having different rules for PC and NPC conduct spoils immersion in the game world, because players are going to treat NPCs with suspicion simply because they know that PCs are forbidden certain actions.

Please don't spoil my D&D. You can deal with this problem in the game.

[Vogonjeltz]

Doesn't that have a Craft (Poisonmaking) DC of, like, 35?

And it requires you to have some already.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

And it requires you to have some already.

Psionic powers never have material components.

[sideswipe]

That seems a bit vindictive,

emphasis mine,
well he is being one, be one back. he will learn or he will be forever a useless one.

[Kaeso]

First of all, this sounds like a player problem and not a character problem. It's probably something you should solve outside of the gaming table, under four eyes or maybe with the group entirely. Just make him know that this isn't funny and that everyone else simply wants to enjoy the game. Maybe he has no bad intentions, maybe he just thinks this joke is funnier than it really is. No harm done, right?

But if you really want to solve this in character, IMHO the best way would be to assert that actions have characters. If he steals something from another PC, said PC has an excuse to bash his head in. If he steals something in a city, the guard catches him and he's thrown into a dungeon (perhaps giving the other PCs a chance to break him out or something, or sending the entire party on a quest to pay his due). Just let him know that he can't do whatever he wants and expect no consequences for his actions.

[Segev]

Yeah, you need to discuss with him why this behavior is a problem for the other PLAYERS, OOC. I don't know if you've done this yet or not, but if not, you need to. OOC problems should be handled OOC, and the choice to consistently play a jerk who steals from the rest of the party is disruptive. Especially if he has expectations that his PC will be protected from retaliation because "he's a party member." Even worse if he just doesn't care because he'll make a new PC that repeats that pattern of behavior.

He needs to be made to understand that this isn't fun for anybody else, and that he's only welcome at the game if he is willing to work with the other players so everybody can have fun.

If you HAVE had an OOC conversation with him about why this character choice is disruptive, what has been his response?

[Urpriest]

Remind him that his actions aren't in character. Don't phrase it has "I'm the DM, I say you wouldn't do that" but as "I know you're kind of bad at roleplaying, one thing I always find helpful is to think through what a real person would do". Be patronizing enough that the player gets that they're being childish.

[Kantolin]

Having the PC killed for their actions, and not resurrected because nobody liked them, is plenty adequate to deal with antisocial character behavior.

Unless you then remove the player from the game, the player will simply make a new character and repeat the process, disrupting the game further. Likely with extra defenses against whatever killed them last time. This is especially true for most players that would go 'Lol, I steal the party fighter's pants/wallet/whatever!'.

The realistic response is that the PCs would stop accepting new people into their group to deal with the surge of thieves running around, which /is/ removing the player from the game in most cases (Or worse, then requiring them to eat table time for what has now become a second game with only one player in it).

In addition, if it's the PCs who initiate the killing, this tends to lead to further bad blood at the table (down to infamous 'Hey look this character shows up whos entire goal in life is to kill the person who killed his brother!) Which if they're not subtle about it, disrupts the game further. If they are subtle about it, they then could be effective at their goal, disrupting the game further. This also could spiral quickly into an arms race of sorts - and with the internet present, it doesn't take long for that to get out of control. If they suck at arms racing, then it at least results in an additional annoyance whenever they've finished up their next character.

So I don't agree with that opinion. I mean it /may/ solve the problem in an extremely immediate sense, but then you're 3d6-reroll-1s away from repeating the issue, unless you kick him out. And if you're gonna kick him out in the first place, may as well talk to him about it first before doing so.

...I suppose there is the chance that he responds 'Oh dear, my character died because of my thievery! Welp, that means I'm never gonna make another thief again!', but I find that unlikely.

Now, that /said/ - apparently he 'always does this' and has been spoken to already. If it's 'from the PCs', I'd curb that quick, but in general I'd go with jaydubs suggestion. In new towns and the like, make a very quick flowchart for the attempted thievery and move on.

[VoxRationis]

Furthermore, I would add that in-character, bashing a comrade's head in because he stole a minor bauble from you is sociopathic (take a look at Smeagol for comparison). And while many people would say that is par for the course with D&D characters, I would have to disagree (barring evil campaigns). What people often forget is that the monsters and cultists and bandits that PCs slaughter by the truckload are clear and present dangers, not just to the PCs themselves, but to the communities they hail from and serve. Violence against the camp of hobgoblin raiders who have been pillaging the halfling villages nearby is wholly justified; that does not excuse killing teammates for minor crimes.

[Hazrond]

Furthermore, I would add that in-character, bashing a comrade's head in because he stole a minor bauble from you is sociopathic (take a look at Smeagol for comparison). And while many people would say that is par for the course with D&D characters, I would have to disagree (barring evil campaigns). What people often forget is that the monsters and cultists and bandits that PCs slaughter by the truckload are clear and present dangers, not just to the PCs themselves, but to the communities they hail from and serve. Violence against the camp of hobgoblin raiders who have been pillaging the halfling villages nearby is wholly justified; that does not excuse killing teammates for minor crimes.

i KNEW i wasnt the only one on the forums who saw the insanity of that :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Haart]

Furthermore, I would add that in-character, bashing a comrade's head in because he stole a minor bauble from you is sociopathic (take a look at Smeagol for comparison). And while many people would say that is par for the course with D&D characters, I would have to disagree (barring evil campaigns).

Nah, as a person who's mostly into D&D for the roleplay (including a thorough roleplay of ususual and non-human psychologies, even some quite nonhumanoid ones) i've long since accepted that nearly all playable beings in nearly all the ways to run 3.5 (4e remedies the problem a tiny little bit, but not by much) i've seen in practice are and are supposed to be radically different from Earth humans in that they don't have any inherent regard for others' lives and are inherently predisposed towards violence (more so letal one) as the often easiest way to deal with their problems (it helps that i perceive D&D game worlds as only superficially resembling ours — if a chain of skeletons can pass an item arbitrarily far in fixed time, it's because the physics of the world are fundamentally different, not because the rules fail to model the world). In short, D&D humans in my interpretation are a species that looks a lot like ours (until you cut them open and hit dice come rolling on the ground) but, when robbed on a street, finds it substantially harder to restrain or knock out their attacker than to simply kill him and be on their way (unless they've got special training at doing nonletal damage or are strong, big and/or well-trained enough to grapple the thief — and the later could be an easy way to get a dagger to the stomach, so lethaly attacking is safer and therefore more preferable anyway). Which means, among other things, that some party dynamics common in fiction aren't easily modelled by 3.5.