Alternate Form versus Favored Enemy

[St Fan]

Here is a rule question that's bugging me, but that I guess is too complex for the Simple Q&A thread.

A creature under the "Alternate Form" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) special ability (which also covers most of the rules for Wild Shape) retains the type of its original form. So far, so good, it means for example a human druid wild-shaped as an animal will still be affected by Charm Person or Hold Person, since the mind is still human.

But how does that work for other special features that are based on the type (and subtype) of the target, like Favored Enemy, or the Knowledge Devotion?

For example, a Ranger with "Animal" as favored enemy would, I guess, not get the bonus against a druid wild-shaped as a bear. Now, would the Ranger be aware of this fact, and thus clued in that there's something unusual with this particular bear?

Likewise, would a Ranger with Humanoid (Human) as favored enemy would have the bonus against the same wild-shaped druid? Would he need to know first that it's a wild-shaped druid and not a bear?

Similarly, with the Knowledge Devotion, faced with a vampire turned into a wolf, a character making a Knowledge (Nature) check will get no bonus, right? Even if understanding what's going on during the fight, would he be allowed a Knowledge (Religion) check to get the bonus against Undead? And can this bonus apply while the vampire is still in wolf form?

[FidgetySquirrel]

This one is strictly rule 0 territory, I would think. If you go by the RAW, however, it's right there in the description. If a silver dragon Alternates Form into a goblin, it's still a silver dragon, and FE bonuses apply as such. It's like ranger magic! There's no rule about keying the player in, but even if you don't, they'd probably figure it out.

[eggynack]

This one is strictly rule 0 territory, I would think. If you go by the RAW, however, it's right there in the description. If a silver dragon Alternates Form into a goblin, it's still a silver dragon, and FE bonuses apply as such. It's like ranger magic! There's no rule about keying the player in, but even if you don't, they'd probably figure it out.
Pretty much, though I would likely give the knowledge devotion guy a higher chance of identifying the thing that he's actually fighting. The ranger, per the rules, can apparently just fight away at a favored enemy without knowing it, and get the extra damage. The knowledge devotion guy, because his ability is essentially based on monster identification, would probably have to know what he's fighting. The ranger would still have a shot at figuring out, and it might be as easy as, "You're hitting this fellow with surprising levels of effectiveness," or even, "Roll more dice than you ordinarily would," but it wouldn't happen as directly.

[sideswipe]

i would say that the druid is both human and an animal whilst changed. so if he is good at fighting both he gets both favoured enemies and it stacks. it has a human mind, he understands those. it has animal movements and tenancies, it knows those. he is extra good against it.

since it is a shape changing druid he needs all the help he can get, and its thematically correct.

[eggynack]

i would say that the druid is both human and an animal whilst changed. so if he is good at fighting both he gets both favoured enemies and it stacks. it has a human mind, he understands those. it has animal movements and tenancies, it knows those. he is extra good against it.

since it is a shape changing druid he needs all the help he can get, and its thematically correct.
It can fit thematically plenty (though it's not really the rule I would use if I were changing things), but it's definitely not the RAW of the situation. These abilities are based on type, and that's just the way of it. It doesn't help that you're also hitting stuff like wild shape rangers with this rule.

[FidgetySquirrel]

Pretty much, though I would likely give the knowledge devotion guy a higher chance of identifying the thing that he's actually fighting. The ranger, per the rules, can apparently just fight away at a favored enemy without knowing it, and get the extra damage. The knowledge devotion guy, because his ability is essentially based on monster identification, would probably have to know what he's fighting. The ranger would still have a shot at figuring out, and it might be as easy as, "You're hitting this fellow with surprising levels of effectiveness," or even, "Roll more dice than you ordinarily would," but it wouldn't happen as directly.True enough. I just decided to cover the FE part because my knowledge of knowledge devotion is comparatively lacking. Personally, my approach would be to suggest to the ranger's player that they seem to be fighting more effectively based on intuition, or something like that.

[St Fan]

As I thought, there's no real RAW interpretation for this situation, nor even any RAI.

My fluff on the Ranger favored enemy feature is that it is based on a mix of familiarity with the specific type of enemy, and of hatred/rage toward this type, hence the bonus. (It can also be entirely familiarity with no hatred at all; after all, a Ranger can pick his own subtype as favored enemy .)

So, I would homebrew that a Ranger need at least to know he's fighting a favored enemy for the bonus to work at all. And it might be not possible to exploit at all if the shapechanged opponent is too far away from the usual body type of the favored enemy.

[Socksy]

[A] human polymorphed into a cat is no longer susceptible to the charm person spell (despite its augmented humanoid subtype), but it becomes susceptible to a ranger's favored enemy ability (if the ranger has chosen animals as a favored enemy).
That's from a WotC article, hope it helps (and hope I'm not breaking any rules quoting it...)!

[IAmTehDave]

That's from a WotC article, hope it helps (and hope I'm not breaking any rules quoting it...)!

Polymorph =/= Alternate Form. They follow very different rules, even though they do thematically similar things.


The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.

This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. (It then does not say anything about types)

So RAW:
Ranger has FE:Humanoid(elf) +4, and FE:Animal +2
Ranger v Elf wizard polymorphed into a bear: Ranger gets +2 from FE
Ranger v Elf druid wildshaped into a bear: Ranger gets +4 from FE
Ranger v Bear: Ranger gets +2 from FE
Ranger v Bear polymorphed into an Elf: Ranger gets +4 from FE
Ranger v Awakened™ Bear Dragonfire Adept using Humanoid Form invocation to be an Elf: Ranger gets +0 from FE (The bear is now a Magical Beast thanks to Awaken)

Edit: Also, from what I recall from the PHB (Nowhere near my books right now) the Favored Enemy bonus is stated as being from study and practice, so there's no real reason to rule it differently than Knowledge Devotion.