Goal: To make Monkey Grip desireable

[Helgraf]

Okay, mechanically, Monkey Grip is terrible - it is inferior to Power Attack in almost every way, and creating circumstances where it shines beyond 3rd level is painful at best.

So the question becomes - how to address the problem. How do we make it viable as a feat selection, and not suboptimal. At the same time, we don't want to make it too powerful; if everyone wants to take it, it's probably too good, but currently almost nobody wants to take it.

I'll admit, I'm not sure what would be the best method, so I'm interested in scouring your brains and sort of group-brainstorming. I'll toss out an initial proprosal; feel free to expand, compare, dissect, critique, et al..

Monkey Grip
Through extensive training, you have learned how to more efficently wield weapons meant for larger creatures than yourself.

Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +1

Benefit: You may use weapons designed for creatures one size category larger than yourself in the same number of hands as a creature of that size would need to wield it with only a -1 to the attack roll. Alternately, you may use a melee weapon for a creature of your size that normally requires two hands in your primary hand with a -2 to the attack roll, leaving your other hand free. You may not use this feat to dual wield two two-handed weapons or two weapons that are both a size category larger than your own. Powerful Build and the Balanced weapon quality do not stack with the benefits of this feat.

Normal: Using weapons designed for creatures one size category larger than yourself inflicts a -2 penalty to the attack roll and the effort required to use them increases by one step - light weapons acting as one handed weapons, one handed weapons requiring two hands, and two handed weapons being unuseable.

Orangutaun Grip
Continued training has made the use of oversized weapons almost effortless for you.

Prerequisite: Strength 13+, Monkey Grip, Base Attack Bonus +3
Benefit: Your penalties for using the Monkey Grip feat are reduced by 1, so that using a two-handed weapon one handed only imposes a -1 penalty, and using a weapon one size category larger than yourself with the same number of hands no longer imposes a penalty.

Dire Ape Style
You have learned how to meld strength and training to supreme effect in handling a big weapon in each hand.

Prerequisite: Strength 15+, Monkey Grip, Two-Weapon Fighting, Base Attack Bonus +5

Benefit: You may now use not use this feat to dual wield two two-handed weapons of your size at a -2 penalty (above and beyond the two-weapon fighting penalties) to each weapon, or two weapons that are both a size category larger than your own and require no more than one hand (e.g. 1 handed and light weapons) each at an additional -1 penalty (above and beyond the two-weapon fighting penalties). Powerful Build and the Balanced weapon quality do not stack with the benefits of this feat.

Special: If you possess both Orangutan Grip and Dire Ape Style, the penalties for using Dire Ape Style are reduced by 1

Chart for Clarity
+------------------------------------------+
|Style . . . . . . . . . . . . . Modifiers |
+------------------------------------------+
|Dire Ape Style (assuming Size Md. User) . |
|2 Large weapons (1 1h, 1 Li) . . -3, -3 . |
|2 Large weapons (1 1h, 1 1h) . . -5, -5 . |
|2 2H Md weapons. . . . . . . . . -6, -6 . |
+------------------------------------------+
|Dire Ape Style plus Orangutang Grip...... |
|2 Large weapons (1 1h, 1 Li) . . -2, -2 . |
|2 Large weapons (1 1h, 1 1h) . . -4, -4 . |
|2 2H Md weapons. . . . . . . . . -5, -5 . |
+------------------------------------------+
.

[Icewalker]

don't forget to include in Dire Ape style that the two weapons larger than your size you can duel wield cannot be two-handed.

I don't know, with orangutaun grip you can wield a greatsword in one hand at...-1, and you could use some big shield with it. Theres another question I have, about dual-wielding greatswords with Dire Ape Style. The dual wielding chart lists the minuses for wielding combonations of one-handed and light weapons. when using this to dual wield greatswords, do they count as one-handed weapons? If this is true, then the feat is probably pretty even, as the minuses from dual-wielding with two one-handed weps is very large.

lastly I would also just like to note that Orangutang Grip sounds silly.

[Demented]

Hot Sweaty Monkey Grip!
<_<

It's somewhat odd that you have the feats trying to do two different things, namely the oversized weapons, and the two-handed weapons, without implementing them similarly. It just seems unnecessarily complicated, splitting the feats downt he middle.

Also, you don't state that Monkey Grip doesn't allow you to use an oversized longsword in one hand and a normal greatsword in the other, so therefore it must be possible! So nyah!

[levi]

The problem with Monkey Grip (even though I love it) is that it's generally inferior to Power Attack. When you figure the average damage for Monkey Gripping vs Power Attacking, only a few weapons work out such that Monkey Grip is a better use of your -2 to attack roles.

{table=head]Weapon|Med Dmg|Av Dmg|Lrg Dmg|Av Dmg|1H PA|2H PA
Dagger|1d4|2.5|1d6|3.5|4.5|n/a
Short Sword|1d6|3.5|1d8 |4.5|5.5|n/a
Long Sword|1d8|4.5|2d6|7.0|6.5|8.5
Bastard Sword|1d10|5.5|2d8|9.0|7.5|9.5
Great Sword|2d6|7.0|3d6|10.5|n/a|11.0
Full Blade|2d8|9.0|3d8|13.5|n/a|13.0
[/table]

As the above (somewhat mangled) chart shows, only the Bastard Sword and Full Blade come out ahead. (Both of which are Exotic Weapons.) The Bastard Sword by 1.5 points and the Full Blade by 0.5 points. In exchange, you give up the option to not power attack against high ACs, have a harder time finding weapons (especially magical ones), and still have to take Power Attack also if you wish to have the option of taking a higher penalty for more damage. All in all, it's not worth it. (At least from a min/maxing perspective.)

The way I see it, there are two things weilding bigger than normal weapons could be good for. The first one (which Monkey Grip was apparently designed for) is to hold a really big weapon in both hands and dish out lots of damage. Unfortunatly, Power Attacking for 2 (while weilding two handedly) will net you 4 damage. That's the better option in most cases.

The other thing I see it being good for is optimizing a Two Weapon Fighter. As my little brother once explained to me, the optimal build for low level TWF is to dual wield Short Swords. (He plays mostly PBP, so levels are low.) "Why?" you ask. (I know I did.) Well, you see, it allows you to get the most out of weapon specific feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc. So, to avoid feat duplication and the heavy penalties for not using a Light weapon in your off hand, you end up using Short Swords.

So what does this have to do with oversized weapons. Well, two things really. One is that you could weild an oversized Short Sword in your primary hand to increase it's damage dealing potential. The other is that, if it was allowed for off hand use, and made One Handed weapons Light, you could dual weild something bigger, like Long Swords.

The problem with both of these options is that you're already taking penalties to hit and Power Attack is still a better option. The problem with the second option is that it's not even allowed by the RAW.

I may be way out to lunch, but I don't think it'd be broken to just drop the -2 penalty entirely. It's not like spending a feat to gain an average of at most a few damage per hit is really broken. Heck, you can take any given weapon, increase it's damage die and make it exotic and it's generally considered balanced, so this isn't that far out of line. (Of course, Monkey Grip does apply to all weapons and not just one like an Exotic Weapon Profiency.)

Furthermore, I see no reason Weild Oversized Off-Hand Weapon should be Epic or have the insane requirements it does. It's silly because by the time you're epic, the minor difference it makes in damage is dwarfed by stuff like your strength and the weapon's magic. Woo hoo, my Epic Ranger can weild a Long Sword in his off hand for 1 extra damage per hit. Big deal, better make it a Bastard Sword for 2 instead. Still not Epic.

I propose two feats: Monkey Grip (with no penalty) and Off Hand Monkey Grip (requires MG and TWF, also with no penalty) and leave it at that. I contend it's not broken and, most likely, not even on the high end of the feat power scale.

Share and Enjoy!

[Orzel]

Since tripping, grappling, disarming, etc is based on character size and not weapon size, weild a larger weapon offers nothing but a fixed Power Attack for 2 with a large weapon. If Monkey Grip made you act as a size larger...


Monkey Grip
You are able to use a larger weapon than other people your size.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it rakes you to use the weapon does not change. You are also treated as one size larger when making a bullrush, trip, disarm, overrun, or sunder attampt when wielding a larger weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off-hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon.
Normal: You can use a melee weapon one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, and the amount of effort it takes to use the weapon increases. A larger light weapon is considered a one-handed weapon, a larger one-handed weapon is considered a two-handed weapon, and you cannot use a larger two-handed weapon at all.

Now Monkey Grip has a point. Your special attacks are treated as once size larger.

[paddyfool]

Alternatively, you could have large two-handed weapons automatically counting as Reach weapons . Mechanically, most of them work out as long enough...

[Marcotic]

Hey, is there any sense using a monkey grip with a gnome? the -2 is balanced somwhat by the size bonus, maybe thats' what this one was made for?

[KoDT69]

Monkey grip could be made desirable. Do it like banks and vacation travel agents.. give away a free gift with the purchase. Take Monkey Grip and get a free toaster! :smallbiggrin:

[Marcotic]

Haha that my friend is funny

[levi]

Well now that I know how to do tables, I fixed the chart in my above post. While I was at it, I decided to write out the full text of the two feats I proposed as a fix for Monkey Grip. As Monkey Grip isn't OGL and not in the SRD, I rewrote these feats from scratch. Thus, the results should be legal to use in OGL content. I changed the names for the same reason. (While they may have less flavor, that's how the cookie crumbles.)

Dire Weapon [General, Fighter]
You wield a larger weapon than others your size.
Prerequisites: Str 13
Benefit: You may wield a weapon intended for a creature one size category larger than yourself without the -2 penalty to attack rolls and the amount of effort required to wield it does not increase. You may not apply the benefit of this feat to a weapon wielded in your off-hand. If you wield a larger than normal double weapon, you may only apply the benefit of this feat to the primary head. (You are considered to be wielding a one-handed weapon in your off-hand and take an additional -2 penalty beyond the usual two-weapon fighting penalties to attack rolls made with that hand.)
Normal: If you wield a weapon intended for a creature one size category larger than yourself, you take -2 penalty to attack rolls and the amount of effort required to wield it increases by one category.

Dire Off-Hand Weapon [General, Fighter]
You wield a larger off-hand weapon than others your size.
Prerequisites: Dire Weapon, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: You may wield a weapon intended for a creature one size category larger than yourself in your off-hand without the -2 penalty to attack rolls and the amount of effort required to wield it does not increase. You may also apply the benefit of this feat to the secondary head of a larger than normal double weapon.
Normal: If you wield a weapon intended for a creature one size category larger than yourself, you take -2 penalty to attack rolls and the amount of effort required to wield it increases by one category.

[Roderick_BR]

Hey, is there any sense using a monkey grip with a gnome? the -2 is balanced somwhat by the size bonus, maybe thats' what this one was made for?

It was made so you could use a large sized weapon in one hand if you were medium, or a medium sized weapon in one hand if you were small, like a greataxe, for example.
When 3.5 was released, some rules for weapon size changed, so they had to change how Monkey Grip works, and they did a half-assed job.

[levi]

Ok, so it was pointed out over at the WotC boards that my monkey grip fix is pretty broken. (Funny how no one here mentioned it.) I also noticed that the feats as written above don't actually achive the goals I suggested (further above). So I got to thinking about how to fix both these issues and remembred a cleaner way to word monkey grip I thought of years ago. (This was 3.0, 3.5 made it more complicated.) Combining this new wording with a scaling tree of three feats (-2, -1, -0), I came up with what may be a better solution. Furthermore, it shouldn't be broken, or underpowered. (I hope.)

Dire Weapon [General, Fighter]
You wield larger weapons than others your size.
Prerequisites: Str 13
Benefit: You may choose to weild weapons as though they where one size smaller than they actually are or as though they where one step lighter than they actually are. You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls made with a weapon weilded in this manner.
Normal: You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls made with weapons one size larger than yourself and they are treated as one step heavier than they actually are. You cannot treat weapon sas though they where one step lighter than they actually are.

Improved Dire Weapon [General, Fighter]
You larger weapons with less difficulty.
Prerequisites: Dire Weapon
Benefit: You only take a -1 penalty to attack rolls made with a weapon weilded via Dire Weapon.
Normal: You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls made with a weapon weilded via Dire Weapon.

Greater Dire Weapon [General, Fighter]
You larger weapons with no difficulty.
Prerequisites: Improved Dire Weapon
Benefit: You take no penalty to attack rolls made with a weapon weilded via Dire Weapon.
Normal: You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls made with a weapon weilded via Dire Weapon.

[Arakune]

how about this?

Monkey grip [general. fighter]
Pre-requisites: Str 18, BAB +1
Benefices: You can wield weapons as if you have a one size category above your (medium -> large, etc.) withouth penalities, but you get a -2 penalty on your attack rolls when you use a weapon of your current size or smaller.
Normal: When you wield a weapon one size category above yours you take a -2 on your attack rolls, and need to double the effort for use it (one hand weapons became two handed and two handed weapons are imposible to use)
Special: If you have a +3 BAB or more, you can chose one weapon type to use without the penality.

Improved Monkey Grip [fighter]
Pre-requisites: Str 20, Con 17 BAB +8, Monkey grip
Benefices: You can wield a two handed weapon of your size category as if it's a one handed weapon.
Normal: You can wield two-handed weapons only with two hands.

Greater Monkey Grip[fighter]
Pre-requisites: Str 28, Con 20, BAB +16, Monkey Grip, Improved Monkey Grip
Benefices: You can wield weapons two size category above your current, that don't stack with Monkey grip (but stack with Improved Monkey Grip).

[Krellen]

Let's not beat around the bush. This is what Monkey Grip is intended to do:

Monkey Grip [General]
Your long training with grossly oversized weapons has given you several advantages in battle.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, Strength 13.
Benefit: You gain the Powerful Build special quality.

[TheEscapist]

Does anyone remember when D&D was about creating an interesting character to take part in a story that you'd be writing with your friends? Monkey Grip was designed to allow a character to use an oversized weapon so that it could become a character's signature - the feat was probably originally made so people could make characters like Cloud from Final Fantasy VII. The 'coolness' of this feat - the fact that NPCs can spread rumors about "a barbarian marauder who wields a giant's sword as if it was nothing" or something similar - in addition to the slight bonus in damage is offset by an attack roll penalty.

And yes, power attack helps your character produce higher numbers than monkey grip does, but can't you pick power attack AND monkey grip?

Perhaps the best solution to making monkey grip more desireable, while at the same time maintaining what I suspect was the original flavor of the monkey grip feat, would be to allow it to add some sort of bonus to the character's intimidate skill while wielding an oversized weapon?