Building a Tempest

[Red Fel]

Hello again. I'm Red Fel. You may remember me from such hit threads as "Collateral Damage Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361628-Collateral-Damage-Man)." Well, our producers checked the ratings, and decided that milking a concept for all that it's worth is actually worth quite a lot. So I'm proud to present an exciting spinoff, "Building a Tempest."

That thread was a concept thread. ("How can we make a character that destroys the countryside?") There were some awesome ideas in that one, but one that particularly struck me, both with its simplicity of mechanics and its early entry, was this one:


Half-elf commoner 4 / dragonmarked heir 4

Feats
1: Least Mark of Storm
3: Favored in House
6: Mighty Dragonmark

When you get the Greater Mark of Storm from your class, select Control Winds. Pick up one of the items which increase a dragonmarks' caster level by 2 - I forget the name - and your caster level is 18 which is sufficient to produce a tornado regardless of the current wind speed, over a radius of 720'. Since it's your only offensive ability it's your go-to offensive ability ...

Sources: ECS and Dragonmarked.

It's appallingly simple. Three feats, and only four dedicated levels (the Commoner levels can be replaced by pretty much anything), and you're tossing out a 1/day 720' radius tornado that lasts for three hours. You could throw on an extra level of DMH and use that nuke twice per day. And that's before level 10.

I love it. And I want more.

So here we are. A new build thread. The idea is simple: Build around this particular ability. Some thoughts on additional classes occurred to me. Storm Disciple. Entry by Ardent or Divine Mind. Pros: 3/5 manifesting. Electricity resistance and damage. And at level 3, you're completely unaffected by winds - such as your three-hour Control Winds tempest. Cons: Requires mantles, psionics. Apart from the electrical damage and the wind-passage, really doesn't offer much. Storm Sentry. Entry by just about anything, really. Pros: Extremely thematically appropriate. Adds usage times and upgrades to Gust of Wind SLA. Full BAB. Cons: Doesn't really do anything other than upgrade the SLA. And doesn't stack with DMH levels for Dragonmark purposes. Stormcaster. Entry by arcane casting. Pros: Easy entry, 9/10 arcane casting. Resistance to electricity and sonic, augment electricity spells, Control Weather 1/week, capstone makes you immune to your SLA. Con: Capstone comes too late. Most abilities can be duplicated (or outperformed) by actual spells, and you lose one CL to get here. Stormlord. Entry by Cleric of Talos. Technically, it's by any divine caster, but the requirements pretty much scream Cleric of Talos. Pros: 10/10 divine casting, plentiful weapon upgrades, unimpeded by SLA at level 3, flight in storms (possibly including SLA) at level 6, capstone grants 1/day Storm of Elemental Fury. Cons: Entry requirements are a pain, particularly considering the three feats needed for DMH. Alignment requirement would permit, at best, CN, which is looked upon somewhat unfavorably in some groups.
So, let's build a character concept that can make this fly. (Pun intended.) As always, the rules: Sources: 3.0/3.5. No PF, no third party, no Dragon Magazine. Dragon Compendium is acceptable. Please cite sources in your responses, it makes things easier for my brain. Races: Half-elf. (Required for Mark of the Storm.) Templates: Any, but no LA, please. Alignments: Any, non-Evil preferred. But please observe alignment requirements in any classes you suggest. Classes: 4-5 levels of Dragonmarked Heir required. 4 mandatory, 5 preferred. Everything else is mutable. Feats: Least Dragonmark (of Storm), Favored in House, Mighty Dragonmark. All others are open. Flaws: Not preferred, but may be required (e.g. for Stormlord) and therefore acceptable. Cheese: Minimal. Despite being able to throw out an encounter-ending SLA at level 8, I want this build to be otherwise playable. Mid-level PO preferred. No DCS or Psychic Chirurgery.
The goal is to build a character around wind- and storm-based mechanics and abilities, ideally of a destructive nature. Fluff-wise, the goal is to create a character who embodies a tempest.

Pencils up, and... Begin.

[Piggy Knowles]

Some thoughts...

The Storm Knight (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3429956). Half-elf, Fighter 1/Warblade 4/Storm Sentry 5/Eternal Blade 10. You delay Control Winds until level 12, alas, but it's a pretty cool build regardless.

Lakota Windsong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14909196&postcount=308). One of mine, made for Iron Chef. Half-elf, Fighter 4/Dragonmark Heir 5/Wizard 1/Bladesinger 10. Would grapple enemies and throw them into the storms he created.

Stormsinger. A bard 5/stormsinger 5 can spend a bardic music use to cast control winds, CL equal to her ranks in Perform. It's also a 10/10 casting class, progresses music and has a couple of other neat abilities. So it's ECL 10, but it's still pretty cool conceptually.

If I were rebuilding Lakota Windsong so that it wasn't for an Iron Chef, I'd make it an unarmed swordsage focused on the various throws (which, conveniently, are often storm-themed). Swordsage 14/Dragonmark Heir 5/XXX 1 is enough to qualify for Tornado Throw.

[Red Fel]

Right into it, then!


Some thoughts...

The Storm Knight (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3429956). Half-elf, Fighter 1/Warblade 4/Storm Sentry 5/Eternal Blade 10. You delay Control Winds until level 12, alas, but it's a pretty cool build regardless.

Okay, let's have a look. We're using Storm Sentry instead of DMH. The plus is that Storm Sentry levels count as DMH levels for purpose of Dragonmark CL, which is great. Further, Storm Sentry gives lots of useful power-ups, and as that build thread mentions, I can burn uses of my Lesser Dragonmark to fuel various class features. The big minus is that instead of receiving Lesser and Greater Dragonmark for free (as well as extra uses of each), I have to take them as feats. However, because I don't have to take Favored in House, it's really only the sacrifice of one feat, rather than two.

And the build does an incredible job of pointing out the strategy involved. Upgrading the Dragonmark powers with feats, taking Updraft and dropping enemies, it all plays out very nicely.

And I needn't mention that I'm a huge fan of Eternal Blade.


Lakota Windsong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14909196&postcount=308). One of mine, made for Iron Chef. Half-elf, Fighter 4/Dragonmark Heir 5/Wizard 1/Bladesinger 10. Would grapple enemies and throw them into the storms he created.

Hmm... I like the craftsmanship. Lot of work went into this one. I particularly like the little touches, like the Pandemonic Silver sword. It's a lot more tactical, very defensive, but smart. One wouldn't expect a one-handed build to be that effective, but I like where it goes.


Stormsinger. A bard 5/stormsinger 5 can spend a bardic music use to cast control winds, CL equal to her ranks in Perform. It's also a 10/10 casting class, progresses music and has a couple of other neat abilities. So it's ECL 10, but it's still pretty cool conceptually.

Huh. Now that's an interesting thought. A bit redundant, perhaps, but it's basically more uses of her trademark ability. And the class turns her into a walking storm, which is the goal.


If I were rebuilding Lakota Windsong so that it wasn't for an Iron Chef, I'd make it an unarmed swordsage focused on the various throws (which, conveniently, are often storm-themed). Swordsage 14/Dragonmark Heir 5/XXX 1 is enough to qualify for Tornado Throw.

Hmm... I dunno there. Much as I love ToB, I'm worried that going into Swordsage will make people think this is supposed to be an Airbender.

I should also note that, despite having cool abilities that trigger off of your high-powered winds, these builds would require something to safely stand within the tornado you make. Perhaps a spell of some sort, I've been looking for something that explicitly protects against high-speed winds. (Dragonmark Demesne came close, but collapses in a hurricane.)

[paperarmor]

What about Ardent 4/ DMH 2/ Stormsdisciple 5/ DMH +3/ Some other +manifester PRC 6 with the Natural world mantle and metamorphic transfer feats? Should turn you into the living embodiment of a hurricane depending on what you metamorphisize into.

[Red Fel]

What about Ardent 4/ DMH 2/ Stormsdisciple 5/ DMH +3/ Some other +manifester PRC 6 with the Natural world mantle and metamorphic transfer feats? Should turn you into the living embodiment of a hurricane depending on what you metamorphisize into.

Alright, let's have a look.

We start out with four levels of Ardent. While I like Natural World for Metamorphosis, and Metamorphic Transfer is great on top of that, the rest of the Natural World mantle doesn't wow me, and doesn't really add much to the flavor of the build. I note, for example, that Metamorphosis could turn the character into a Dragon, but not any kind of Elemental, and the latter is likely more appropriate given the theme.

So let's go with Energy as primary. We could choose Natural World, but it doesn't wow me. Ardent 4 gets me three mantles, one of which will be Energy, 17 PP, and an embarassing 5 powers known. Next, we dip DMH for two levels, which gets me Lesser Dragonmark for free, and Improved Least Dragonmark.

Next, we grab all five levels of Storm Disciple. That adds +3 to Ardent ML, giving 46 PP and 8 powers known. It also adds an embarassing 1 electricity damage to weapon rolls, a respectable 15 Electricity Resist, the ability to walk unimpeded through the character's tornadoes, and an adorable Thundering weapon ability. We are now level 11. We then take the last three levels of DMH, grabbing Greater Dragonmark and upgrades to Lesser and Greater.

At level 14, the character has two uses of her SLAs, an ML of 7, 46 PP and 8 powers known. She has access to three mantles. Apart from that, she is vaguely uninteresting. Assuming we put all subsequent levels into full manifesting, at level 20 she will have an embarrassing ML of 13, a respectable 147 PP/day, and a disappointing 14 powers known. Assuming those are all levels in Ardent, she will also have two more Mantles, for a total of five.

As a rule, if we're going to rely on casting or manifesting ability, it pays to lose as little CL or ML as possible. Using DMH requires us to lose 4-5 levels' worth. Storm Disciple, disappointingly, causes us to lose even more than that.

According to certain versions of the Tier List, Storm Disciple with an Ardent dip entry is a +0 PrC, meaning that the losses in versatility are balanced against the gains. However, Storm Disciple with pure Ardent entry is rated as -1, meaning that the class actually causes a decrease in versatility. That's likely because, as I understand it, Ardent (thanks to customizability of mantles) is seen as Tier 2, and Storm Disciple narrows you by forcing you to give up 2 ML and mantle progression.

In summary, Ardent with customized mantles is a pretty mean contender. But losing out on mantles for that long, and dropping 7 ML, hurts. Yes, I still get my DMH and storm flavor, but it comes at a substantial cost in power.

[Telonius]

Oh - for a second I thought you were trying to optimize the Complete Adventurer PrC! :smalleek:

[Hazrond]

Hey guys did you know that a half-air elemental is immune to high winds? seems to fit the theme as well so thats a thing, the yalso get control winds as a 3/day spell-like ability around level 11 or so i think

[Red Fel]

Oh - for a second I thought you were trying to optimize the Complete Adventurer PrC! :smalleek:

Holy crumbs, this is actually a thing!

... a thing designed around dual-wielding. Really? Increased AC, decreased off-hand penalties, and Spring Attack while dual wielding? Wow.

Good catch, though. Just... Nope.


Hey guys did you know that a half-air elemental is immune to high winds? seems to fit the theme as well so thats a thing, the yalso get control winds as a 3/day spell-like ability around level 11 or so i think

Okay. I'm guessing you mean Half-Elemental from Manual of the Planes, right? (I think there was a Half Air Elemental template in Dragon Magazine, but I excluded that source from this thread, and I don't think that template offers wind resistance anyway.) Does the MotP one actually give wind resistance, though? And doesn't it carry a heavy LA? I can't find my book right now, so I'm not sure.

[paperarmor]

no LA but half air elementals are immune to cold. Not wind effects. Hehy what about factotum 8/ DMH 5/ something else x?

[Hazrond]

no LA but half air elementals are immune to cold. Not wind effects. Hehy what about factotum 8/ DMH 5/ something else x?

They are immune to cold and air effects, im guessing high winds would probably qualify as an air effect :smallamused:

Edit: as for LA im reading a +3 :smallconfused:

[Red Fel]

no LA but half air elementals are immune to cold. Not wind effects. Hehy what about factotum 8/ DMH 5/ something else x?

First off, why are we starting with 8 levels of Factotum? For Cunning Surge? We only need 4 to get into DMH. It's a very early access PrC.

Second, while I do like Factotum as a class, what does it do for the build? Is there a reason, other than "Factotum is awesome"? (And it is.)


They are immune to cold and air effects, im guessing high winds would probably qualify as an air effect :smallamused:

Edit: as for LA im reading a +3 :smallconfused:

Okay, found my book. Let's have a look-see.

Okay. I see the confusion. Under Special Qualities:
Half-elementals are immune to disease and effects from their own elements (use cold for air) and gain a +4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison.
(Emphasis added.) That's the confusion. Yes, in theory, you could argue this means they're immune to wind effects, but I think it's intended to give them immunity to damage with a particular descriptor. Regardless, the LA more or less clinches it. It's a nice idea, certainly, but I just don't see it worth that much of a penalty.

[paperarmor]

oh nevermind then ignore me.

[Hazrond]

First off, why are we starting with 8 levels of Factotum? For Cunning Surge? We only need 4 to get into DMH. It's a very early access PrC.

Second, while I do like Factotum as a class, what does it do for the build? Is there a reason, other than "Factotum is awesome"? (And it is.)



Okay, found my book. Let's have a look-see.

Okay. I see the confusion. Under Special Qualities:
(Emphasis added.) That's the confusion. Yes, in theory, you could argue this means they're immune to wind effects, but I think it's intended to give them immunity to damage with a particular descriptor. Regardless, the LA more or less clinches it. It's a nice idea, certainly, but I just don't see it worth that much of a penalty.
Did i mention you get control winds without having to sacrifice class levels? once you have 9 hd you get it and at 12 you get enough to do a tornado

[Red Fel]

Did i mention you get control winds without having to sacrifice class levels? once you have 9 hd you get it and at 12 you get enough to do a tornado

But you do have to sacrifice class levels. Three of them. Specifically, in the update to Manual of the Planes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a), we find this language:

Half-elementals gain skills and feats as the base creature. They gain the relevant elemental subtype (Earth, Air, Fire, or Water), but no other special qualities. They gain the spelllike abilities listed in the relevant table. They have a level adjustment of +3.

So, actually, they lose 3 levels from their LA. Also, I note the language "no other special qualities," which contrasts with and overrides the "special qualities" section of the book. I remind you that "special qualities" includes the confusing "immunities" language, and so would likely be overridden.

So, basically, it's a +3 LA to get more wind-based SLAs. The other features are nice, but really, the focus is a laundry-list of 1/day SLAs. And admittedly, some of them are pretty nice, and all are reasonably thematic.

But the LA is pretty big, and as mentioned at the outset of the thread, something I'd rather avoid.

[Darrin]

Gnome Quickrazor (Races of Stone) + Pandemonic Silver (Complete Warrior). Every time you draw the quickrazor, every creature within 30' must make a Will save or cower. DC is determined by wind speed. If drawn in the middle of a tornado, the Will save DC is 28.

To stand in the middle of a tornado... hmm. Large size (via enlarge person, expansion, or alter self/polymorph shenanigans) + Touchstone: Eternal Breath of Seneferu means you're treated as Gargantuan, and under 175+ mph winds, that's "checked", so you can stand immobile or move in the same direction as the winds.

[Red Fel]

Gnome Quickrazor (Races of Stone) + Pandemonic Silver (Complete Warrior). Every time you draw the quickrazor, every creature within 30' must make a Will save or cower. DC is determined by wind speed. If drawn in the middle of a tornado, the Will save DC is 28.

To stand in the middle of a tornado... hmm. Large size (via enlarge person, [I]expansion, or alter self/polymorph shenanigans) + Touchstone: Eternal Breath of Seneferu means you're treated as Gargantuan, and under 175+ mph winds, that's "checked", so you can stand immobile or move in the same direction as the winds.

Alright. Let's dive in. Quickrazor requires EWP, but it's awesome and I may let that slide. The Pandemonic Silver thing was covered earlier in the thread, and I love it.

Now, with regard to standing in the wind, this character is a Half-Elf, so base size is Medium. According to Eternal Breath's baseline ability description:

For the purposes of wind effects (see Table 3–24: Wind Effects, page 95 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide) you are treated as a creature two sizes larger than your actual size. Any time you are exposed to an average wind speed of at least 21 miles per hour, you gain a +4 bonus on all Fortitude and Will saving throws.
So that means I'm treated as a Huge, and gain +4 to the Fort save to avoid being flung about like a rag doll. Now, according to Control Winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm), I could simply create a calm in the middle of the storm, but let's assume I don't do that. Let's assume I max out my levels and generate "A tornado (175+ mph)". According to the explanation of weather conditions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm):
All flames are extinguished. All ranged attacks are impossible (even with siege weapons), as are Listen checks. Instead of being blown away (see Table: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado. Those who come in contact with the actual funnel cloud are picked up and whirled around for 1d10 rounds, taking 6d6 points of damage per round, before being violently expelled (falling damage may apply). While a tornado’s rotational speed can be as great as 300 mph, the funnel itself moves forward at an average of 30 mph (roughly 250 feet per round). A tornado uproots trees, destroys buildings, and causes other similar forms of major destruction.
The attendant table further notes - and this is the key - that Large and smaller creatures are blown away, Huge creatures are knocked down, and Gargantuan or Colossal creatures are checked. The save DC, which must be made every round, is 30.

This character would be treated as Huge, meaning that she would have to make a save DC every round for 3 hours or be knocked down. Admittedly, she could reshape the windstorm around her, but that takes concentration, and I'd imagine a tornado imposes a pretty big DC on that Concentration check. Further, it's worth noting that the range of the ability is the radius of the storm, meaning that once triggered, she would be standing precisely at the edge. According to the excerpt above, characters in close proximity are sucked in - meaning that she would be pulled inside.

Now, admittedly, assuming you could use some trick to Enlarge Person or otherwise make her bigger, she wouldn't be knocked down, only checked. But according to the text, checked means that "Creatures are unable to move forward against the force of the wind." In other words, she's still subject to the winds, she's just not being tossed around like a toy. Can't use her abilities, can barely move, certainly can't make a Concentration check to reshape the wind around her. Further, since the funnel cloud explicitly pulls things in, trying to leave the storm area would count as moving "against the force of the wind," so she's stuck there.

I like where your head is, but I don't think it's enough, is the point. She needs a way to be unaffected by the wind, or else she's basically stuck in the storm doing nothing except waving a screaming sword around.

Which is still awesome and I still intend to use, by the way. Seriously, any enemy in range of the scream is in range of the tornado; any enemy cowering within range of a tornado is going for a ride. It's genius and it's evil.

[Hazrond]

Alright. Let's dive in. Quickrazor requires EWP, but it's awesome and I may let that slide. The Pandemonic Silver thing was covered earlier in the thread, and I love it.

Now, with regard to standing in the wind, this character is a Half-Elf, so base size is Medium. According to Eternal Breath's baseline ability description:

So that means I'm treated as a Huge, and gain +4 to the Fort save to avoid being flung about like a rag doll. Now, according to Control Winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm), I could simply create a calm in the middle of the storm, but let's assume I don't do that. Let's assume I max out my levels and generate "A tornado (175+ mph)". According to the explanation of weather conditions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm):
The attendant table further notes - and this is the key - that Large and smaller creatures are blown away, Huge creatures are knocked down, and Gargantuan or Colossal creatures are checked. The save DC, which must be made every round, is 30.

This character would be treated as Huge, meaning that she would have to make a save DC every round for 3 hours or be knocked down. Admittedly, she could reshape the windstorm around her, but that takes concentration, and I'd imagine a tornado imposes a pretty big DC on that Concentration check. Further, it's worth noting that the range of the ability is the radius of the storm, meaning that once triggered, she would be standing precisely at the edge. According to the excerpt above, characters in close proximity are sucked in - meaning that she would be pulled inside.

Now, admittedly, assuming you could use some trick to Enlarge Person or otherwise make her bigger, she wouldn't be knocked down, only checked. But according to the text, checked means that "Creatures are unable to move forward against the force of the wind." In other words, she's still subject to the winds, she's just not being tossed around like a toy. Can't use her abilities, can barely move, certainly can't make a Concentration check to reshape the wind around her. Further, since the funnel cloud explicitly pulls things in, trying to leave the storm area would count as moving "against the force of the wind," so she's stuck there.

I like where your head is, but I don't think it's enough, is the point. She needs a way to be unaffected by the wind, or else she's basically stuck in the storm doing nothing except waving a screaming sword around.

Which is still awesome and I still intend to use, by the way. Seriously, any enemy in range of the scream is in range of the tornado; any enemy cowering within range of a tornado is going for a ride. It's genius and it's evil.

You should make them a mage with a ton of pandemonic silver weapons, proceed to animate objects them and now the entire tornado is fear incarnate :smallamused: of course you would need a way to protect them from the damage

[Darrin]

Now, admittedly, assuming you could use some trick to Enlarge Person or otherwise make her bigger, she wouldn't be knocked down, only checked. But according to the text, checked means that "Creatures are unable to move forward against the force of the wind." In other words, she's still subject to the winds, she's just not being tossed around like a toy. Can't use her abilities, can barely move, certainly can't make a Concentration check to reshape the wind around her. Further, since the funnel cloud explicitly pulls things in, trying to leave the storm area would count as moving "against the force of the wind," so she's stuck there.


I found something else to increase your effective size in a Windstorm: Windstorm Domain power (Spell Compendium), which you can grab via a cleric dip or Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment. That plus Eternal Breath means a medium-sized half-elf counts as gargantuan-size in high winds. As far as checked goes, I don't see anything that says being checked prevents abilities/attacks/concentration.

If you want to knock the winds down to just a hurricane, then gargantuan wouldn't be affected. Still... while hurricanes are much larger than tornados... apparenlty they aren't as fast. So, not quite so cool as a tornado.

Ok, here we go: Stormlord 3 gets Storm Walk (Ex): completely ignore the effects of high winds. So...

Cleric 5/Dragonmark Heir 4/Stormlord 3 = Tornado Jones invites you to take a spin in the Suck Zone.

[Red Fel]

I found something else to increase your effective size in a Windstorm: Windstorm Domain power (Spell Compendium), which you can grab via a cleric dip or Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment. That plus Eternal Breath means a medium-sized half-elf counts as gargantuan-size in high winds. As far as checked goes, I don't see anything that says being checked prevents abilities/attacks/concentration.

I'd argue that anything that keeps you from moving, and triggers checks in lesser creatures, and counts as an encounter on its own (tornados, simply by existing, are CR 10) is probably at least going to impose a penalty on Concentration.


If you want to knock the winds down to just a hurricane, then gargantuan wouldn't be affected. Still... while hurricanes are much larger than tornados... apparenlty they aren't as fast. So, not quite so cool as a tornado.

Exactly. And we want more coolness.


Ok, here we go: Stormlord 3 gets Storm Walk (Ex): completely ignore the effects of high winds. So...

Cleric 5/Dragonmark Heir 4/Stormlord 3 = Tornado Jones invites you to take a spin in the Suck Zone.

Note the OP. Yeah, I've been eyeing Stormlord. Note that the feats make it a proper nuisance to get into. Stormlord requires three feats, a sizeable Fort save, and third-level divine spells. DMH requires another two feats.

So if I go Cleric 5/ DMH 4, I have my feats from levels 1, 3, 6, and 9. In order to take DMH at 6, my level 1 and 3 feats are already defined, Least Dragonmark and Favored in House. That means I get only two more feats before Stormlord, and I need three. I can't go with Human, because Mark of the Storm requires Half-Elf. I can't go with Fighter, because that slows down my caster progression (I don't get 3rd-level casting until Cleric 5). I can't take War Domain for the free Weapon Focus, because Talos doesn't have War. I could take a Flaw if I had to, I suppose. Maybe the one that's -1 AC or something.

But, yes. In an ideal world, Cleric 5/ DMH 4/ Stormlord 10/ Cleric +1 is a pretty fine build. Gives me an effective 16 Cleric levels (since Stormlord is 10/10 progression), plus all those juicy Stormlord bonuses. In particular, I like level 3 and level 6. Level 3, as you've pointed out, allows the character to be unimpeded by her tornado. Level 6 lets her fly during a "storm" - it's possible that this could be construed to include tornadoes. Which is pretty sick.

Oh, and raining +3 Thundering Shocking Burst javelins down on my enemies is pretty sweet too. Unfortunately, tornadoes make ranged attacks impossible unless you use siege weaponry. (I wonder if the Stormlord's 3rd and 6th-level abilities also extend to ranged attacks.)

But yes. Aware of the option.

[paperarmor]

Hi im back again I think I managed to get my last build to work much better ardent 4/ DMH 2/ Storm Disciple 3/ DMH +2/ Ardent + 9.
take practiced Manisfester as your Sixth level feat. Now you have one lost manifester level and you get to pick the same powers as a 19 th level Ardent due to thier quirky way of picking powers. you lose out on power points though but that can be made up with gear (Somewhat)

Also, Pandemonic Silver will trigger when drawn so you technically don't need a feat for the quickrazors you can simply use a free action to draw and sheath it in your off-hand.

[jiriku]

Stormrage is cleric 8 / druid 8, and thus achievable by any cleric, druid, artificer, or archivist a early as level 15. Potentially it could be places in a staff and activated by UMD at an even earlier level by most any class. The spell grants you flight, immunity to natural and magical winds, and the ability to shoot bolts of lightning from your eyes. Further, this is located on the same spell list that provides access to control winds normally, so for high-level play you can be pretty much a natural disaster in a can.

However, getting it onto a non-caster who is using the dragonmark is a little outside my usual optimization area. I am supposing that rogue with an item familiar is a pretty likely entry point, as you get UMD in-class and can buff your UMD check with bonuses from the item familiar. At 8th level (the earliest level your tornado trick comes online), you could conceivably be rolling UMD with 11 ranks, +11 bonus, and +3 Charisma bonus for a +25 on the check. That should be sufficient to UMD a custom staff of the storm, don't you think?

[One Step Two]

For Stormlord, just to put the option out there if you're set on not using flaws, Unearthed Arcana's Half-Elf paragon. You will lose a caster level for the single level dip, but you get a bonus feat, good reflex and a bunch of nice skills. The second level is optional but handy.

Edit: Ideally you'd be looking at Cleric 4/Half-Elf Paragon 2/DMH 4/ Stormlord 10, and you'd still be bringing 8th level spells to the table.

[Red Fel]

Hi im back again I think I managed to get my last build to work much better ardent 4/ DMH 2/ Storm Disciple 3/ DMH +2/ Ardent + 9.
take practiced Manisfester as your Sixth level feat. Now you have one lost manifester level and you get to pick the same powers as a 19 th level Ardent due to thier quirky way of picking powers. you lose out on power points though but that can be made up with gear (Somewhat)

Not sure I follow, but it sounds tempting.


Also, Pandemonic Silver will trigger when drawn so you technically don't need a feat for the quickrazors you can simply use a free action to draw and sheath it in your off-hand.

That's a good point. You technically don't need to actually use it in combat, you just have to draw and sheath it. Clever!


Stormrage is cleric 8 / druid 8, and thus achievable by any cleric, druid, artificer, or archivist a early as level 15. Potentially it could be places in a staff and activated by UMD at an even earlier level by most any class. The spell grants you flight, immunity to natural and magical winds, and the ability to shoot bolts of lightning from your eyes. Further, this is located on the same spell list that provides access to control winds normally, so for high-level play you can be pretty much a natural disaster in a can.

However, getting it onto a non-caster who is using the dragonmark is a little outside my usual optimization area. I am supposing that rogue with an item familiar is a pretty likely entry point, as you get UMD in-class and can buff your UMD check with bonuses from the item familiar. At 8th level (the earliest level your tornado trick comes online), you could conceivably be rolling UMD with 11 ranks, +11 bonus, and +3 Charisma bonus for a +25 on the check. That should be sufficient to UMD a custom staff of the storm, don't you think?

It would work in a Stormlord build that advances Cleric, certainly. But that becomes redundant, as Stormlord gives you the immunities you need.

Getting it onto a continuous use (or even a per-day use) item would be outrageously expensive, due to its spell level. Pity we can't divorce the immunity to winds from everything else.

If only Wind Wall did that.


For Stormlord, just to put the option out there if you're set on not using flaws, Unearthed Arcana's Half-Elf paragon. You will lose a caster level for the single level dip, but you get a bonus feat, good reflex and a bunch of nice skills. The second level is optional but handy.

Edit: Ideally you'd be looking at Cleric 4/Half-Elf Paragon 2/DMH 4/ Stormlord 10, and you'd still be bringing 8th level spells to the table.

... Huh. That's a really good point, right there.

That build brings you up to level 10 before Stormlord. So you have access to your level 1, 3, 6, and 9 feats, plus the Paragon feat - total of 5. You need two to get into DMH, which you can take at 1 and 3; you need three to get into Stormlord, which you can take at 5 (Paragon 1), 6, and 9. Done and done. And you still get full Stormlord progression. Paragon 2 advances Cleric, as do 10/10 Stormlord levels, for a total of CL 15. And you're right, that brings us just onto the cusp of 8th-level spells.

Well-spotted!

[Erik Vale]

*Just reading*


We start out with four levels of Ardent. While I like Natural World for Metamorphosis, and Metamorphic Transfer is great on top of that, the rest of the Natural World mantle doesn't wow me, and doesn't really add much to the flavor of the build. I note, for example, that Metamorphosis could turn the character into a Dragon, but not any kind of Elemental, and the latter is likely more appropriate given the theme.

While I'll accept the rest of the build notes, what about turning into one of the Asian dragons from Oriental Adventures?
Call yourself Ao Kuang while turning into a Tun Mi [Which is the dragon ment to bring about tempests and destruction].

Optimized, Naaw, flavourful as heck, damn straight.

[Red Fel]

While I'll accept the rest of the build notes, what about turning into one of the Asian dragons from Oriental Adventures?
Call yourself Ao Kuang while turning into a Tun Mi [Which is the dragon ment to bring about tempests and destruction].

Optimized, Naaw, flavourful as heck, damn straight.

Hmm... You do make an interesting point with the Lung dragons. And good choice with Ao Kuang - I almost forgot him! (I need to re-read Journey to the West, while I'm at it.)

A "tempest dragon" could work, as far as Metamorphosis goes. Good catch!

[Darrin]

That's a good point. You technically don't need to actually use it in combat, you just have to draw and sheath it. Clever!


You can only sheath the quickrazor as a free action after using it in an attack action. So it's not quite "I draw and sheath it a hundred times, make a hundred Will saves." But you do kinda need to use it in combat... or at least have something to attack. Although you can probably attack a square just because... you never know, there may be an invisible attacker there!



That build brings you up to level 10 before Stormlord. So you have access to your level 1, 3, 6, and 9 feats, plus the Paragon feat - total of 5. You need two to get into DMH, which you can take at 1 and 3; you need three to get into Stormlord, which you can take at 5 (Paragon 1), 6, and 9. Done and done.

Favored Soul 6/DM 4/Stormlord 10 would also work. Weapon Focus at 3rd and Energy Resistance 10 (presumably electricity) at 5th. 8th level spells, presumably 9th with Versatile Spellcaster, although adding any 9th level "spells known" may be a bit tricky.

[Red Fel]

You can only sheath the quickrazor as a free action after using it in an attack action. So it's not quite "I draw and sheath it a hundred times, make a hundred Will saves." But you do kinda need to use it in combat... or at least have something to attack. Although you can probably attack a square just because... you never know, there may be an invisible attacker there!

True. But what I meant is that you don't have to use the weapon with intent to succeed. EWP gets rid of the nonproficiency penalty to attacks. If the goal is simply to draw, attack, and sheath, in order to trigger the fear effect, you really don't need to hit on your attack; that's incidental.

Also, I love the "attacking the empty space" (darkness?) idea. Paranoia is an adventurer's best friend, after all.

That, and gold. Lots of gold.


Favored Soul 6/DM 4/Stormlord 10 would also work. Weapon Focus at 3rd and Energy Resistance 10 (presumably electricity) at 5th. 8th level spells, presumably 9th with Versatile Spellcaster, although adding any 9th level "spells known" may be a bit tricky.

That's it! I kept thinking there was some kind of Cleric ACF (other than the Metal and War domains, which aren't available to followers of Talos) that got Weapon Focus. And I was right!

... Except that Favored Soul isn't an ACF, it's a wannabe. But still, Weapon Focus! Thank you!

Okay, with that method, you get Weapon Focus for free. First- and third-level feats get you into DMH, FS got you Weapon Focus, sixth- and ninth-level feats get you Great Fortitude and Endurance, done!

It does mean putting off Mighty Dragonmark until later, but that's fine. I'm beginning to get the impression that, until Stormlord 3 (or an equivalent ability) comes online, the best choice is to use hurricane force instead of tornado force, wait until you're well out of the area, and then upgrade things once you're safely away.

And double-bonus, Favored Souls use Cha-based casting, which synergizes nicely with my Cha-based Dragonmark SLA.

Excellent!

[paperarmor]

Not sure I follow, but it sounds tempting.



That's a good point. You technically don't need to actually use it in combat, you just have to draw and sheath it. Clever!



It would work in a Stormlord build that advances Cleric, certainly. But that becomes redundant, as Stormlord gives you the immunities you need.

Getting it onto a continuous use (or even a per-day use) item would be outrageously expensive, due to its spell level. Pity we can't divorce the immunity to winds from everything else.

If only Wind Wall did that.



... Huh. That's a really good point, right there.

That build brings you up to level 10 before Stormlord. So you have access to your level 1, 3, 6, and 9 feats, plus the Paragon feat - total of 5. You need two to get into DMH, which you can take at 1 and 3; you need three to get into Stormlord, which you can take at 5 (Paragon 1), 6, and 9. Done and done. And you still get full Stormlord progression. Paragon 2 advances Cleric, as do 10/10 Stormlord levels, for a total of CL 15. And you're right, that brings us just onto the cusp of 8th-level spells.

Well-spotted!

to learn new powers Ardents only need to be able to spend the pp to manifest them. it's pretty cool.
Also Exceedingly dumb idea for Quickrazor fear farming take ranks in Perfom: Weapon Drill. Then just practice with your quickrazors in middle of the storm.

[One Step Two]

to learn new powers Ardents only need to be able to spend the pp to manifest them. it's pretty cool.
Also Exceedingly dumb idea for Quickrazor fear farming take ranks in Perfom: Weapon Drill. Then just practice with your quickrazors in middle of the storm.

The real trick, is Hiding your Quickrazors in Hand Fans, while you perform the weapon drill. Now that, is style :smallcool:.

[Piggy Knowles]

Count once pointed out a potential problem with pandemonic silver weapons: you need to hear the wailing from a pandemonic silver weapon to be effected, but hurricane-force winds have a line that claims it is impossible to hear anything else over the winds:


Hurricane-Force Wind
All flames are extinguished. Ranged attacks are impossible (except with siege weapons, which have a -8 penalty on attack rolls). Listen checks are impossible: All characters can hear is the roaring of the wind. Hurricane-force winds often fell trees.

This probably counts as a dysfunctional rule, since pandemonic silver does have a listed save DC for hurricane-level winds, but it's worth mentioning.

[paperarmor]

Count once pointed out a potential problem with pandemonic silver weapons: you need to hear the wailing from a pandemonic silver weapon to be effected, but hurricane-force winds have a line that claims it is impossible to hear anything else over the winds:



This probably counts as a dysfunctional rule, since pandemonic silver does have a listed save DC for hurricane-level winds, but it's worth mentioning.


I think the wind amplifies the screaming enough that it's heard. besides it isn't too much more than a kind of cute trick and a more reasonable DM should let it slide

[Red Fel]

Okay. I've stepped back to take a second look at the Storm Disciple. Particularly now that I have my copy of OA, and got a good look at the Tun Mi Lung.

First, about the Tun Mi Lung. One of its abilities is "Air and Water Immunity," which means that it is not affected by water or air-based attacks. So in addition to being thematically appropriate, with its flight and powerful SLAs, it is unaffected by the tornado.

But let's back up. The Natural World Mantle (one of the two Mantle requirements for Storm Disciple) offers, as a 4th-level power, Metamorphosis. That means an Ardent with the Natural World Mantle can use the Metamorphosis power at level 7. For an Ardent 4/ DMH 2/ Storm Disciple 3/ DMH +2/ Ardent +9, that means this power comes online at level 12. At that point, you can assume a form with a number of HD up to your manifester level, up to a maximum of 15. Well, a juvenile Tun Mi Lung, the smallest it gets, has 16 HD. They only go up from there. So... It actually doesn't work. You can only assume the form of a Tun Mi Lung with Greater Metamorphosis, which allows up to 25 HD... and which you can't get as an Ardent.

So let's assume Energy Mantle. Blasty blasty, pew pew. Ardents cast from Wis, which is a bit of a nuisance since the SLA is built on Cha, but whatever. Let's see what we can do with this build - I've been meaning to give it a proper once-over.

First, we'll take 4 levels of Ardent. That gets us 3 mantles, 17 PP/day, 5 powers known. At first and third level, we take Least Dragonmark and Favored in House. Next, we take DMH 1 and 2. That gives Lesser Dragonmark and upgrades Least Dragonmark. Next we take 3 levels of Storm Disciple. Only SD 2-4 increase ML; SD 5 is a total waste, but the real perk comes at SD 3, which allows us to be completely unaffected by tornado winds. Score. We could take SD 4; in fact, it's probably better to take SD 4 than an extra level in Ardent. But we'll come back to that.

At character level 9, we'll have taken Ardent 4/ DMH 2/ SD 3. We have Stormwalker. We dive back into DMH +2, grab an upgrade for Lesser Dragonmark and grab Greater Dragonmark for free. At level 6, I assume we took Mighty Dragonmark; at level 9, we'll take Practiced Manifester to shore up the ML reduction. Now, DMH 5 gives an extra use of the SLA, so it's a question of whether we want it.

On the one hand, 4 levels of DMH plus the first level of SD put us behind the ML curve, but Practiced Manifester shores up the gap somewhat. Further, we don't actually gain extra class features from Ardent; just PP/day and powers known. On the other hand, if we go with DMH 5 and SD 4, that gives us a total of 11 Ardent levels, plus 3 SD levels advancing Ardent; a 14th-level Ardent has 170 PP/day and 15 powers known. If we dropped that last DMH level in favor of another Ardent level, we'd instead have 195 PP/day and 16 powers known. It's worth noting, however, that only levels actually spent in the Ardent class count towards gaining new Mantles, so either way I'd have a total of 5 Mantles from which to choose. The toss-up, therefore, is whether an extra use of the tornado SLA is worth 25 PP and 1 power known.

By way of comparison, Control Winds, the SLA, is a 5th-level spell being juiced up to have an effective CL of 18+. A 5th-level power costs 9 PP. So, in essence, by giving up on one use of Control Winds, the equivalent of a 5th-level spell, this build would gain the ability to manifest two 5th-level powers (plus extra).

It's also worth noting that the extra level of DMH increases the CL for the SLA. (All the abbreviations!)

So, after a long way of going about it, here's my question: Which is worth more? Ardent 4/ DMH 2/ SD 3/ DMH +2/ SD +1/ Ardent +8, or Ardent 4/ DMH 2/ SD 3/ DMH +3/ SD +1/ Ardent +7?

[WhamBamSam]

That build will get Metamorphasis at level 10, not 12, because as people have mentioned, Ardents learn powers based on ML, not effective Ardent level. It could actually learn it at 8th if you take Practiced Manifester at 6th instead of 9th.

[Erik Vale]

Paranoia is an adventurer's best friend, after all.

That, and gold. Lots of gold.

You forgot Diamonds.

[paperarmor]

You can totally get Greater Metamorphosis as an Ardent just use the Substitute Powers ACF found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) just add it to the deception mantle or something.

[Teh_das]

There are domains that grant weapon focus, like the war domain. I don't know if you need a particular weapon focus, it gives you the one matching your diety.

You can also look into an item of ethereal jaunt, or greater blink. Both of those would solve your storm problem. Well the stand in it problem with greater blink, the cast in it problem with ethereal jaunt.

[avr]

It does mean putting off Mighty Dragonmark until later, but that's fine. I'm beginning to get the impression that, until Stormlord 3 (or an equivalent ability) comes online, the best choice is to use hurricane force instead of tornado force, wait until you're well out of the area, and then upgrade things once you're safely away.
If it matters, I was reminded in the last thread that you can get a Dragonmark Focus with up to +4 caster levels. Mighty Dragonmark is convenient for my dirt farmer with a nuke in his back pocket but not actually necessary to get the CL 18 required to create tornados from still air.

[Red Fel]

That build will get Metamorphasis at level 10, not 12, because as people have mentioned, Ardents learn powers based on ML, not effective Ardent level. It could actually learn it at 8th if you take Practiced Manifester at 6th instead of 9th.


You can totally get Greater Metamorphosis as an Ardent just use the Substitute Powers ACF found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) just add it to the deception mantle or something.

Both good points. Still, regardless of the level at which I get it, Metamorphosis won't get me the "typhoon dragon" for which we were hoping. And Greater Metamorphosis is a 9th-level power; I don't think that this character's ML will be high enough to get there, will it? Wait, let's see... ML will be 14-15, Practiced Manifester increases it by +4... That might be enough, close to endgame. Okay, kind of awesome.


There are domains that grant weapon focus, like the war domain. I don't know if you need a particular weapon focus, it gives you the one matching your diety.

You can also look into an item of ethereal jaunt, or greater blink. Both of those would solve your storm problem. Well the stand in it problem with greater blink, the cast in it problem with ethereal jaunt.

Yeah, I made this observation above, the War and Metal domains. The problem is that Talos does not offer Metal or War as domains, and Stormlord requires him as a patron.

Okay. So currently, the suggestions I'm particularly digging include: Warblade 4 / Half-Elf Fighter 1 / Storm Sentry 5 / Eternal Blade 10. It's not DMH, but it manages to smoothly synthesize the Dragonmark SLAs with a combat and grappling style. Note that it lacks an immunity to the tornado. It's also a bit more feat-starved, but on the plus side it uses maneuvers instead of spells, so it's a system with which I'm more comfortable. Favored Soul 6/ Dragonmarked Heir 4/ Stormlord 10. Immunity to the tornado comes online at level 13, total FS CL 16. Very solid. Cleric 4/Half-Elf Paragon 2/DMH 4/ Stormlord 10. Paragon 1 gives me the bonus feat I need to qualify for Stormlord, while Paragon 2 gets me +1 to Cleric CL. Immunity to the tornado comes online at level 13, total Cleric CL 15. Either Ardent 4/ DMH 2/ SD 3/ DMH +2/ SD +1/ Ardent +8 or Ardent 4/ DMH 2/ SD 3/ DMH +3/ SD +1/ Ardent +7. (I could still use the advice as to which is worth more to me.) Immunity to the tornado comes online at level 9. ML 14-15 (depending), +4 from Practiced Manifester.
Any thoughts?

[paperarmor]

it depends on your mantles and how blasty you want be. So long as your Ardent ML is at least 17 you will get 9ths you'll only need ml 19 to bump up the DCs and augment powers. So it's really more of a stylistic thing either more pew pew or extra tornado. Personally I'd go for the 19 ML because the tornado seems like a fun last resort.