Conspiracy of Ravens

[GutterFace]

So i remember once i had heard that a raven was smart and articulate enough to activate a wand.....is this true or was that some shenanigans?

if so....if you took Tamer of Beats all the way, you could end up with 40 1 HD Ravens with wands of magic missile?

or is this just crazy talk and im reading this all wrong?

[Bronk]

When taken as a familiar, Ravens become smarter, gain the ability to speak, and are able to use the skill ranks of their master. With those three things, it is possible for them to hold a wand, speak the command word, and make a 'use magic device' skill check in order to use it.

By themselves though, they aren't able to do those things.

[jaydubs]

The argument is usually applied to familiars. It's essentially that corvids (like crows and ravens) are dexterous enough to use wands (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE4BT8QSgZk). Familiars become more intelligent than many humans by a certain point, and can additionally use the masters skills in use magic device.

It seems to me that Tamer of Beasts could give you 40 intelligent ravens, but none of them would have sufficient ranks in UMD to reliably activate wands.

I'm mostly a PF player, so I might have gotten something wrong in translation. :smalltongue:

[Vaz]

The DM'ing giving everything access to the Shield spell?

Also, as it's a 1/4 HD, you can get 4 per HD, so you can have 80. Although that is a lot of Wands - 60Kgp worth.

Yes.

A Raven Familiar is the only one who is intelligent enough to do it natively, while for Handle Animal, there is no actual trick that I am aware of to teach an animal how to operate a wand, so you would be required to use Push, which is limited to Move, Standard, or Full Round action depending on your class. And even if there was, to get it as a Free Action, it would need to be a Druids Animal Companion, and it's not on the available list, nor can you have more than one. Neither do Ravens have ranks in UMD, without paying for an expensive, Psychic Reformation on each one.

[GutterFace]

So without wands what could 80 1/4 HD ravens with a 17 Int (each) do for me?

[DeltaEmil]

Lots of aid another checks. Up to 80 occupied squares.

[AMFV]

Now this has got me wondering if there's some way to make this interact with Halfling Outrider and Paladin levels, theoretically you could have almost triple advancement at that point.

[Vaz]

How do they get that high of an Intelligence? Awakening? In that case, they cannot be Animal Companions, and are likely to just fly off instead of risking going up against something like a CR20 encounter like the Balor where his atwill fireballs would just shred them.

Honestly? Not that much that normal ravens could not do. They can talk, so provide you with useful spies/scouts/messengers etc.

[AMFV]

How do they get that high of an Intelligence? Awakening? In that case, they cannot be Animal Companions, and are likely to just fly off instead of risking going up against something like a CR20 encounter like the Balor where his atwill fireballs would just shred them.

Honestly? Not that much that normal ravens could not do. They can talk, so provide you with useful spies/scouts/messengers etc.

Tamer of Beasts class feature.

[Bronk]

So without wands what could 80 1/4 HD ravens with a 17 Int (each) do for me?

With that much intelligence, a pearl of speech (MIC) an item that grants a hefty bonus to the UMD skill, and if you had a wand whose trigger word was in the language granted by the pearl of speech, they would probably be able to do what you want... it would just be much more expensive.

[AMFV]

I'm honestly not sure if Ravens are the go-to exploit here. The main trick would be to get an animal that's very potent for it's HD and then utilize it. With that and then some increased caster level stuff (it's easier for Divine casters in that respect). You could wind up with a very potent character. Also of note it's keyed off caster level and not character level. Meaning that you could wind up with a lot of animals very quickly.

[Vaz]

Tamer of Beasts class feature.

Completely missed that. At 530gp, it would cost 42400 to give them 2 ranks in UMD. They'd be intelligent enough to use those UMD without training, but with a Charisma of 6, they'd only be able to make the UMD check on a natural 20. As you can see, not really cost effective. Giving them +20 UMD check items is alright, but at the same time, very expensive, and a ball ache for your DM.

[AMFV]

Completely missed that. At 530gp, it would cost 42400 to give them 2 ranks in UMD. They'd be intelligent enough to use those UMD without training, but with a Charisma of 6, they'd only be able to make the UMD check on a natural 20. As you can see, not really cost effective. Giving them +20 UMD check items is alright, but at the same time, very expensive, and a ball ache for your DM.

Tis true, although now I'm imagining an awakened Gorilla, possibly with some kind of magic jar type thing, who has an army of Gorillas and tries to conquer the world to make everything better for Gorillakind, if only the rest of the chassis for that class wasn't so terrible.

[Vaz]

You've just been to watch Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, haven't you?

[ArqArturo]

In contrast, ravens would retreat to the high places and create a democratic utopia, a grand unkindness of ravens, based on the search for truth, innovation, and shiny baubles.

[ImaWallaby]

Ravens should have Common as a starting language in D&D. Check Youtube for "Tobey the Destroyer".

[Fitz10019]

Iddy biddy boots of stomping. Cheaper than a wand of magic missiles.

[AMFV]

You've just been to watch Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, haven't you?

I was thinking of Gorilla Grod actually, but that works too...

[nedz]

80 x 1/4 HD creatures — suddenly Fireball looks like a good spell.

[AMFV]

80 x 1/4 HD creatures — suddenly Fireball looks like a good spell.

Actually that's mistaken. The Beast Master gains (Spellcasting Level)+(Beast Master Level)x2 as their HD cap, and only gives three levels of spellcasting. So with Practiced Spellcaster you'd only get 36 HD as your maximum cap. Of course their are other ways to boost that, but as written it's not.

[GutterFace]

Ha Ha..., Tome of Magic, Murder of Crows.
ill have a few and it solves the issue and is pretty funny.

[Vaz]

Tamer of Beasts gains Twice its Class Level + Twice his Caster Level for Animal Friendship. That means 10+3, plus Possibly Practised Spellcaster if you want to maximise it, or (2*10)+(2*17) = 20+34 = 54. If you can get some Caster level loops going, like Master Spellthief, say (Wyrm Wizard to pick up Animal Friendship?), then with Practised Spellcaster, Tamer of Beasts 6 is the best place to cut off if you're absolutely desperate to take it.

Anyway - Crows are 1/4 HD creatures, QED, you can get 4*54 = 216 crows.

I was going to come up with a really cool application to get you the ability to have a Hive Mind, but it requires Animal Type, rather than Magical Beast.

[GutterFace]

Vaz, i want that Hive Mind! make it happen!

[DeltaEmil]

Ha Ha..., Tome of Magic, Murder of Crows.
ill have a few and it solves the issue and is pretty funny.You'd need 1000 ravens to make them count as a swarm.

[GutterFace]

well the actual Murder of Crows is a 4hd swarm already; and it counts as an animal in total not the parts of the sum.

[AMFV]

Tamer of Beasts gains Twice its Class Level + Twice his Caster Level for Animal Friendship. That means 10+3, plus Possibly Practised Spellcaster if you want to maximise it, or (2*10)+(2*17) = 20+34 = 54. If you can get some Caster level loops going, like Master Spellthief, say (Wyrm Wizard to pick up Animal Friendship?), then with Practised Spellcaster, Tamer of Beasts 6 is the best place to cut off if you're absolutely desperate to take it.

Anyway - Crows are 1/4 HD creatures, QED, you can get 4*54 = 216 crows.

I was going to come up with a really cool application to get you the ability to have a Hive Mind, but it requires Animal Type, rather than Magical Beast.

Ah I was misreading, I saw it as only his caster level and didn't realize the whole thing was doubled. You could potentially get significantly more than 54HD if you were using certain caster level loops, I expect. Although at that point, why would you want to.

It'd also be a useful tool for the DM, since he could use it to make an Undead Monster (High HD to Lower CR) creature and give it one hell of a mount.

[Vaz]

Vaz, i want that Hive Mind! make it happen!

Pick up the Dark Speech feat, and go into a town and purchase a Raven Rookery that houses at least 1500 ravens in.

That's the only way in your build. Hive Mind requires Animals or Vermin, but your Animal Companions are explicitly Magical Beasts.

The other way is this (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/hive.html).

@AMFV - simply have Desecrate up and Deathbound Domain, for 6HD/CL for raised undead, and Rod of Undead Mastery for 8HD/CL worth of controlled Undead. At CL12 with an Orange Ioun Stone, that allows him to cast Animate Dead on a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon. He'll also be able to cast Awaken Undead to make it intelligent.

[GutterFace]

Pick up the Dark Speech feat, and go into a town and purchase a Raven Rookery that houses at least 1500 ravens in.

That's the only way in your build. Hive Mind requires Animals or Vermin, but your Animal Companions are explicitly Magical Beasts.

The other way is this (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/hive.html).

Very interesting.....

[Vaz]

You can use less, if you desire - you only need 50 to make a Hive Mind after all.

It's just that it's also got 20 Sorcerer levels if you have 1500+.