How Do I Roll With Heavily Optimized Players?

[newsman77]

Dear Fellow Gamers,

Your advice is greatly needed. I'm now in a 3.5 game with a party/bad guys that are pretty optimized, and I could use a little help keeping up. It's a modern day setting, using 3.5 mechanics.

The basics. Our stats are 18,17,16,15,14,13 (assigned any way we like). I've chosen to play a Warforged (Flavored as a Robot AI). Already in the party is the brute (guy who can sunder/power attack/grapple amazingly), a monk, a telepath (wizard focusing on telepathy and force powers), a shadow mage and a ghost-faced-killer. Healing is not an issue as we all have ways to heal ourselves. We are level 7.

So here's my question: How can I build my guy to have lots of fun, and still keep up with the big dogs? My preferred weapon would be unarmed/natural attacks... or a spiked gauntlet. The ideas I had were 1)Warlock/Totemist/Warshaper (For some shape shifting fun using Humanoid Shape from DFA, as I love to play a sort of "Mystique" from the X-Men. DFA Invocations are approved.) or 2) Fighter/Warforged Juggernaut/War Hulk kind of character.

Could you please help? All ideas are welcome.

[sideswipe]

so just 3.5 but refluffed? or a different game?

[Doc_Maynot]

Robot AI, huh? Then why not play the role of an extremely intelligent character.
Perhaps a Factotum 7, perhaps see if your DM will allow you to ignore the prerequisites for Able Learner and Chameleon due to your nature?
Then you could go Factotum 5/Chameleon 2 fluffing your aptitudes as Apps. "Loading Divine Protocols... Begin queuing up spells."

[Segev]

Warshaper + Humanoid Shape invocation is kindof clever.

However, it sounds like you've got melee pretty heavily covered.

I might suggest considering Dragonfire Adept over Warlock, and picking up the Endure Elements invocation. Use that on your party so you can AoE with them in the midst of it without concern.

Look into Breath of the Night (fog at will) or Darkness as invocations. Get Blindsense or Mindsight (the latter can be had if you grab the Charm invocation and pick up a level of Mindbender), and you can drop your fog or your darkness and benefit from the concealment while dropping AoEs on your enemies (since you know what square(s) they're in).

What did you have in mind for the Totemist? Consider the skills you can boost from the soulmelds; if you can boost stealth type skills, your ability to drop darkness and fog or your ability to turn invisible could let you accompany your assassin-type PC in sneak missions, too.

[sideswipe]

well you could always try something like play a druid and focus on wildshape, play it as some form of genetic manipulation. get aberration wildshape.

or play a summoner, lots of ways to optimise that. as a druid, cleric or wizard. all are some slightly different feats and stuff.

essentially if you play a wizard, a cleric, a druid or an artificer and you look at the handbooks for them, you will contribute well to the party.

[Oddman80]

well you could always try something like play a druid and focus on wildshape, play it as some form of genetic manipulation. get aberration wildshape.

or play a summoner, lots of ways to optimise that. as a druid, cleric or wizard. all are some slightly different feats and stuff.

essentially if you play a wizard, a cleric, a druid or an artificer and you look at the handbooks for them, you will contribute well to the party.

So.... he'd be a Transformer/Dino-bot?

[Darrin]

How about:

{edit: mucked up some prereqs}
1) Battle Dancer 1. Feat: Jaws of Death (Races of Eberron). Bonus: Imp. Unarmed Strike.
2) Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce. Rage -> Whirling Frenzy.
3) Barbarian 2. Feat: Power Attack. Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip.
4) Totemist 1.
5) Totemist 2. Girallon Arms -> Totem Chakra.
6) Fighter 1. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush.
7) Fighter 2. Bonus: Second Slam.

With Whirling Frenzy, you get 10 attacks:

+6 unarmed#1/+6 unarmed#2/+1 unarmed#3/+1 claw#1/+1 claw#2/+1 claw#3/+1 claw#4/+1 slam#1/+1 slam#2/+1 bite

[newsman77]

so just 3.5 but refluffed? or a different game?

Yes, this is 3.5 re-fluffed... but it's really cool and way interesting.



What did you have in mind for the Totemist? Consider the skills you can boost from the soulmelds; if you can boost stealth type skills, your ability to drop darkness and fog or your ability to turn invisible could let you accompany your assassin-type PC in sneak missions, too.


I was looking at natural attacks the Totemist offers in combination with Warshaper. Maybe get some super decent claws with reach. :)




Robot AI, huh? Then why not play the role of an extremely intelligent character.
Perhaps a Factotum 7, perhaps see if your DM will allow you to ignore the prerequisites for Able Learner and Chameleon due to your nature?
Then you could go Factotum 5/Chameleon 2 fluffing your aptitudes as Apps. "Loading Divine Protocols... Begin queuing up spells."

This seems very, very interesting. Any way I can mix this with a shape shifter or disguise?

Wow Darrin... simply Wow. That's quite a build going on there. The +6's to hit would be cool, but are the +1's a little low?

[Darrin]

Wow Darrin... simply Wow. That's quite a build going on there. The +6's to hit would be cool, but are the +1's a little low?

That's just BAB +6 with -5 for iteratives and secondary attacks. I'm not sure what your Str would be, but Whirling Frenzy adds +2 attack via +4 Str, and -2 attack for frenzy, so I kept the BAB at +6.

[Doc_Maynot]

This seems very, very interesting. Any way I can mix this with a shape shifter or disguise?


Well, The prerequisites to the PrC include 8 ranks Disguise, and after that it's DMM: Persist Disguise Self or a Hat of Disguise which is quite cheap.

[JusticeZero]

If the other players are well optimized, then ask them for help with your character. I've helped players to build their characters before.

[Arbane]

I was looking at natural attacks the Totemist offers in combination with Warshaper. Maybe get some super decent claws with reach. :)


Rugaru (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=467), is that you? :smallwink:

[newsman77]

How's the wildshaping Ranger variant from Player's Handbook II... couldn't you combine that with some Warshaper for a whole Dino-bot feel?

Thanks for the Battle Dancer suggestion Darrin... that may just be the way I go. I really like what you did there.

[Darrin]

How's the wildshaping Ranger variant from Player's Handbook II... couldn't you combine that with some Warshaper for a whole Dino-bot feel?


Wild Shape Ranger is in Unearthed Arcana, but it only works with small and medium animals. You need at least large to get most of the decent dinosaurs, so you'll want to do something like Wild Shape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 2/Warshaper 3/Master of Many Forms +8/Warshaper +2.

If you go that route, make sure you check out the Cave Dinosaurs in the Miniatures Handbook: ankylosaurus, triceratops, and T-Rex, all conveniently large-sized.



Thanks for the Battle Dancer suggestion Darrin... that may just be the way I go. I really like what you did there.

I started with Battle Dancer because I was trying to fit in Superior Unarmed Strike at level 3. This gives you a Monk's unarmed strike without actually any levels of monk, so Superior Unarmed Strike progresses your unarmed damage by character level rather than Monk level + 4.

If Dragon Magazine is available, there's a City Brawler Barbarian ACF in Dragon #349 that would work even better: trades medium armor/shield proficiencies and martial weapon proficiencies for Improved Unarmed Strike and TWF (unarmed only). Then you could trade that Battle Dancer level for maybe a level of Warblade.

I'd like to add Snap Kick and TWF on there for more attacks. Maybe some Psychic Warrior levels could help there, along with access to expansion, hustle, maybe dimension hop.

[newsman77]

I started with Battle Dancer because I was trying to fit in Superior Unarmed Strike at level 3. This gives you a Monk's unarmed strike without actually any levels of monk, so Superior Unarmed Strike progresses your unarmed damage by character level rather than Monk level + 4.

If Dragon Magazine is available, there's a City Brawler Barbarian ACF in Dragon #349 that would work even better: trades medium armor/shield proficiencies and martial weapon proficiencies for Improved Unarmed Strike and TWF (unarmed only). Then you could trade that Battle Dancer level for maybe a level of Warblade.

I'd like to add Snap Kick and TWF on there for more attacks. Maybe some Psychic Warrior levels could help there, along with access to expansion, hustle, maybe dimension hop.

Wow, you sir are one amazing character creator.

So let me run this by you... Would there be a way to do a warlock/monk? I only suggest the warlock, because I like the humanoid shape thing (mostly for story purposes) and a few of the invocations... like fell flight/Flee the scene... eldritch claws are nice for added damage.

Is it possibly and still viable to build warlock/monk... who can shape change, fly and teleport? I think I saw a feat called Sun School monk, that would let you use "flee the scene" and still get an attack in at the end. My DM loves grapples... and that's a very viable escape route. :)

[Doc_Maynot]

Wow, you sir are one amazing character creator.

So let me run this by you... Would there be a way to do a warlock/monk? I only suggest the warlock, because I like the humanoid shape thing (mostly for story purposes) and a few of the invocations... like fell flight/Flee the scene... eldritch claws are nice for added damage.

Is it possibly and still viable to build warlock/monk... who can shape change, fly and teleport? I think I saw a feat called Sun School monk, that would let you use "flee the scene" and still get an attack in at the end. My DM loves grapples... and that's a very viable escape route. :)

With Alignment Requirements you'd need to do Chaos Monk (Dragon Magazine, I'll update with the issue once I find it #335) mix that with Eldritch Claws, Intuitive Attack, some Incarnum and Beast Strike and it could work out for you quite well.

[Darrin]

So let me run this by you... Would there be a way to do a warlock/monk? I only suggest the warlock, because I like the humanoid shape thing (mostly for story purposes) and a few of the invocations... like fell flight/Flee the scene... eldritch claws are nice for added damage.


The biggest hurdle with a Monk/Clawlock build is "claw" is not a special monk weapon and can't be used in a flurry. There are two ways around this. First, Unorthodox Flurry (from Dragon Compendium) can be used to make any light weapon count as a special monk weapon. Claws are natural weapons, and are thus always considered light weapons. This allows you to use your claws with Flurry of Blows.

The second method is taking the Beast Claws feat from Dragon #355, which sets your unarmed strike damage = claw damage. Due to Eldritch Claws, your claw damage = unarmed strike + eldritch blast. I believe this allows you to make iterative attacks with your unarmed strikes and add two claws as secondary natural attacks, getting the same eldritch blast damage on all your attacks (I think), but I'm a bit fuzzy on how Eldritch Claws interacts with iteratives.

If you can get both Eldritch Claws + Beast Claws approved, then Monk 2/Warlock 4/Enlightened Fist 10/something +X might be viable, although some of the Enlightend Fist class features won't work with invocations. Ideally, if you can get Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3 into the build, then you may really be cooking with gas: unarmed strike damage + eldritch blast damage + 6d6 hellfire damage. However, it's not clear if hellfire damage can be added to Eldtritch Claws. You'll want to run that by the DM and get a ruling.

Even if you get all that working... you're going to be on the very fragile side of things if you try to do a lot of front-line fighting. Lowish-medium BAB, low HP, and AC may be suspect due to MAD. For everything you invest in blasting with your claws, you may be better off blasting things from a distance on your invisible flying artillery platform.



Is it possibly and still viable to build warlock/monk... who can shape change, fly and teleport? I think I saw a feat called Sun School monk, that would let you use "flee the scene" and still get an attack in at the end. My DM loves grapples... and that's a very viable escape route. :)

Sun School gives you a single attack when you teleport adjacent to an opponent... which is just not worth it. If you're only going to get off a single attack on your turn, then you might as well just eldritch blast them from a distance and not put yourself in melee range. If you really want to do the Teleport-Stabby thing, then a Shadow Pouncer build via Telflammar Shadowlord or Crinti Shadow Marauder is probably what you're looking for.

This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15034783&postcount=14) in my TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079) has four examples of Shadow Pouncer builds. However, only one of them involves Monk levels, and none of them have much room for Warlock.

[dextercorvia]

How about:

1) Battle Dancer 1. Feat: Jaws of Death (Races of Eberron). Bonus: Imp. Unarmed Strike.
2) Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce. Rage -> Whirling Frenzy.
3) Barbarian 2. Feat: Second Slam (Races of Eberron). Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip.
4) Totemist 1.
5) Totemist 2. Girallon Arms -> Totem Chakra.
6) Fighter 1. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Power Attack.
7) Fighter 2. Bonus: Shock Trooper.

With Whirling Frenzy, you get 10 attacks:

+6 unarmed#1/+6 unarmed#2/+1 unarmed#3/+1 claw#1/+1 claw#2/+1 claw#3/+1 claw#4/+1 slam#1/+1 slam#2/+1 bite

You can't take Second Slam until BAB+6, and you lack Improved Bull Rush for Shock Trooper. Try this instead:

1) Overwhelming Attack Monk 1 Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Jaws of Death
2) Overwhelming Attack Monk 2 Improved Bull Rush
3) Totemist 1 Leap Attack
4) Totemist 2 Girallon Arms bound to Totem Chakra
5) Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian1 with Whirling Frenzy
6) Wolf Totem Barbarian for Improved Trip, Multiattack
7) Fighter 1 Shock Trooper

You lose Second Slam, but all your secondary natural attacks are at -2 instead of -5

[Darrin]

You can't take Second Slam until BAB+6, and you lack Improved Bull Rush for Shock Trooper. Try this instead:


Good catch. I thought I was forgetting something...



7) Fighter 1 Shock Trooper


Similar problem, Shock Trooper requires BAB +6, and you've only got BAB +5 there. Easy enough to grab with Fighter 2 on the next level, though.

[dextercorvia]

Similar problem, Shock Trooper requires BAB +6, and you've only got BAB +5 there. Easy enough to grab with Fighter 2 on the next level, though.

Oops, I was forgetting Totemist was 3/4 BAB. It would work with fractional.

[newsman77]

Thanks for the ideas guys!! Here's my only limitation... now I'm supposed to have 3 levels of warlock. (Was assigned a starting class, can't change.) The good news: DM ruled Hellfire Warlock will stack with Eldritch Claws for claw damages. So silver lining to my could there.

With that... is there anything wrong with a sort of silly build: Warlock3/Lion Totem Barbarian1/Totemist2/Warshaper3/Hellfire Warlock3 (eventually, only level 7 now).

Feats:
1:Adamantine Body
Flaw:Practiced Invoker (DM ruled it works like Practiced Spellcaster)
3:Eldritch Claws
6:Multiattack
9:??
12:Quicken Spell-Like Ability

[Doc_Maynot]

Thanks for the ideas guys!! Here's my only limitation... now I'm supposed to have 3 levels of warlock. (Was assigned a starting class, can't change.) The good news: DM ruled Hellfire Warlock will stack with Eldritch Claws for claw damages. So silver lining to my could there.

With that... is there anything wrong with a sort of silly build: Warlock3/Lion Totem Barbarian1/Totemist2/Warshaper3/Hellfire Warlock3 (eventually, only level 7 now).

Feats:
1:Adamantine Body
Flaw:Practiced Invoker (DM ruled it works like Practiced Spellcaster)
3:Eldritch Claws
6:Multiattack
9:??
12:Quicken Spell-Like Ability

Now you just need a way to mitigate the ability damage, so you'll need a binder dip, or see if Strong Heart vest will be enough to mitigate it.

[Renen]

Be war weaver. Instead of being a +# to parties power level, you will just be flat out multiplying the power level of the party

As for melee, other ideas are already great. Cant add much.

[Necroticplague]

If you can get both Eldritch Claws + Beast Claws approved, then Monk 2/Warlock 4/Enlightened Fist 10/something +X might be viable, although some of the Enlightend Fist class features won't work with invocations. Ideally, if you can get Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3 into the build, then you may really be cooking with gas: unarmed strike damage + eldritch blast damage + 6d6 hellfire damage. However, it's not clear if hellfire damage can be added to Eldtritch Claws. You'll want to run that by the DM and get a ruling.

Actually, its pretty clear you wouldn't get Hellfire damage when you use Eldritch Claws. Hellfire Blast reads: "Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can change your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast." However, for Eldritch Claws,you never use your eldritch blast. You just give yourself claws that happen to use eldritch blast damage as part of their damage.

[newsman77]

Actually, its pretty clear you wouldn't get Hellfire damage when you use Eldritch Claws. Hellfire Blast reads: "Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can change your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast." However, for Eldritch Claws,you never use your eldritch blast. You just give yourself claws that happen to use eldritch blast damage as part of their damage.

I would tend to agree with you, but my DM ruled otherwise. So I'm not going to argue the point... just accept the extra d6's.

[dextercorvia]

I would tend to agree with you, but my DM ruled otherwise. So I'm not going to argue the point... just accept the extra d6's.

Yep it's a nice trade. Take the extra damage, you were going to figure out a way to mitigate the con damage anyway.