Microcrap is at it again

[Avilan the Grey]

SO... Microsoft will stop supporting Windows 7 already Jan 13th, 2015 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2014/07/10/microsoft-windows-7-mainstream-support/). Because customers are stupid and don't want their crappy new operating systems. So we must punish them.

At the same time they will release Windows 9 (first half of 2015). Which you have to have internet connection to activate. This will not go over well.

[Mando Knight]

It's ending mainstream support, like they did for XP back in '09. Extended support (like what they shut down for XP this year) is projected to last until 2020, when Win9 will be looking pretty long in the tooth and analysts will be hoping that Win11 will finally pull us out of the rut of Win10, bringing us back to the glory days of 8.

[Geordnet]

Just make the switch to Linux already. :smalltongue:

(There, I said it.)

[valadil]

Just make the switch to Linux already. :smalltongue:

(There, I said it.)

Thanks to Steam choosing linux for their Steam Machine that's becoming more and more viable for gamers.

[Seerow]

Just make the switch to Linux already. :smalltongue:

(There, I said it.)

Because someone complaining about a company dropping tech support wants to get into an operating system where they are their own tech support...

[Lamech]

If Windows 9 is actually Windows 7 in disguise I will be very happy.

[Geordnet]

Because someone complaining about a company dropping tech support wants to get into an operating system where they are their own tech support...

Honestly, Linux is generally so robust that once properly set up you'll never need any tech support. :smallbiggrin:

For everything else, there are thousands of helpful (and knowledgable) people on dozens of dedicated forums and even live chat. They'll take care of you much better than anyone at the MS helpdesk ever could. :smalltongue:

[gomipile]

Honestly, Linux is generally so robust that once properly set up you'll never need any tech support. :smallbiggrin:

For everything else, there are thousands of helpful (and knowledgable) people on dozens of dedicated forums and even live chat. They'll take care of you much better than anyone at the MS helpdesk ever could. :smalltongue:

I can vouch for the default help IRC channels of both Ubuntu and Linux Mint. I've both given and received quite a bit of help in both.

[Max™]

Plus the whole thing where, after getting used to poking around at different parts of your system, and in the process getting a deeper understanding of what is actually going on, you suddenly find yourself looking over a question someone else asked somewhere and realizing "holy crap, I know how to fix that!" so you tell them. Maybe you're right, maybe they need more help, maybe you're wrong, odds are one or both of you will learn from trying to figure things out, lord knows I've seriously screwed up more than my share of my own computers, but doing so I gained enough knowledge to make sure I come out neutral or ahead on helping others... which feels pretty cool.

[Porthos]

Honestly, Linux is generally so robust that once properly set up

*inserts "Futurama I See What You Did There" meme* :smalltongue:

Joking smilies aside, I think most of us know that Linux really isn't appropriate for a vast portion of the public. Any more than fixing one's own car would be. :smallwink:

[Telok]

Any more than fixing one's own car would be. :smallwink:

Funny, I have several friends who do that. When something goes wrong with my car I ask them.

Plus, I run linux because when I want something deleted I want it actually deleted. Not to have it show up again five minutes later because Microsquash deemed it a necessary feature.

[Porthos]

Funny, I have several friends who do that. When something goes wrong with my car I ask them.

And I know people as well. :smallsmile: That doesn't change the fact that the vast vast vast majority of people take their cars into mechanics to have them looked at when something goes wrong.

Remember, I'm not saying that Linux is IckyBadWrong. Far from it. It's an OS. With all that implies from that sentence. Works for a lot of people; doesn't work for lot of other people.

But before the latest round of "Just Switch To Linux, It's Easy!" posts got too deep I wanted to remind that, well, no, it isn't easy. Or rather, it can be just as 'easy' as learning how a car works.

Or how house plumbing works.

Or your electical system.

Plenty of people have spent the time learning to be DIYers in all sorts of areas. Strangely enuf thou, not everyone wishes to. :smallwink: And, in fact, many people just aren't going to have the time/patience/ability to do so. And even with modern distros, that's pretty much exactly what Linux is. The OS for computer DIYers.

[Max™]

Well, besides the "mild" DIYer spins like Mint or the even milder Pinguy that I had a lot of success with starting out, both of which fall in the "can you use unetbootin or liveusb or even copy/paste a dd /dev/yadayda command, then reboot to the usb and walk through a few prompts" side of things. Which incidentally is also a viable way to install windows these days with the W8 usb bootable stick and all.

Once you get them on a usb there really isn't a lot of tech knowhow necessary. Even the *buntu versions are pretty plug and play these days. Even without a usb you can do the good old dvd burning or even order one with everything already on it.

No, a Debian based system running Cinnamon/Unity/Gnome-whatever is the sort of thing you have to try to break generally.

How many people get a new car and immediately trick it out so they can go street racing? How many of them aren't prepared for working on their own cars?

How many just get in and expect it to work as long as it has gas and a key in it, only paying attention to serious problems as they come? Whether a system is running windows or linux or osx or whatever there is always a possibility for said serious problems, and at the very least you can get official tech support from various *buntu based distributions just like you can with microsoft or apple, so there isn't a whole lot to the "most people aren't up to it" argument.

...which is entirely mooted by the widespread use of a linux derived os: android, and to a lesser extent chromeos, but honestly android is more of a pain than a pretty significant chunk of the linux flavors I've played with in the past. The single benefit android or windows or ios or osx or whatever has over [insert your choice of linux flavor or any other self-installed os here] is that they come pre-installed and ready to buy.

That's it.

[Porthos]

Well, besides the "mild" DIYer spins like Mint or the even milder Pinguy that I had a lot of success with starting out, both of which fall in the "can you use unetbootin or liveusb or even copy/paste a dd /dev/yadayda command, then reboot to the usb and walk through a few prompts" side of things. Which incidentally is also a viable way to install windows these days with the W8 usb bootable stick and all.

Once you get them on a usb there really isn't a lot of tech knowhow necessary. Even the *buntu versions are pretty plug and play these days. Even without a usb you can do the good old dvd burning or even order one with everything already on it.

No, a Debian based system running Cinnamon/Unity/Gnome-whatever is the sort of thing you have to try to break generally.

How many people get a new car and immediately trick it out so they can go street racing? How many of them aren't prepared for working on their own cars?

How many just get in and expect it to work as long as it has gas and a key in it, only paying attention to serious problems as they come? Whether a system is running windows or linux or osx or whatever there is always a possibility for said serious problems, and at the very least you can get official tech support from various *buntu based distributions just like you can with microsoft or apple, so there isn't a whole lot to the "most people aren't up to it" argument.

The point is, most people don't even want to deal with it at all. Or know how to deal with it.

Lemme give an example. Up thread someone mentioned how incredibly useful IRC is when dealing with Linux troubleshooting.

Now if that was said to the average person, they've be saying "What's an Eye Are See? Is it a long distance phone number?" Or, if you're lucky, "What's their web address?"

Again, don't get me wrong. Linux is a great OS. But let's not go into evangelize mode here. It simply isn't for everyone.




...which is entirely mooted by the widespread use of a linux derived os: android, and to a lesser extent chromeos...

Now this is a great point, and one I was going to bring up myself if it came around to it. But not quite in this way. All the arguing that goes on between the various aficionados of various of desktop/laptop OSes is almost rather quaint given the extreme asskicking that is going on from both Android and iOS (and, I suppose Windows RT [HA! Not really :smalltongue:]). IMO, it almost doesn't matter anymore. Mobile is completely dominating the computer landscape at the moment (which I hate, BTW) and all of the arguing over what OS to use on a desktop/laptop is almost like arguing what sort of artillery armies should have used in WWII. Interesting, but becoming increasingly irrelevant with every passing year.


The single benefit android or windows or ios or osx or whatever has over [insert your choice of linux flavor or any other self-installed os here] is that they come pre-installed and ready to buy.

That's it.

You make it sound so trivial. :smallwink: In the Computer as an Appliance age, that IS the most important thing to, well, I'd say the vast majority of people who actually use computers. At least as far as I can see.

[Max™]

Again, don't get me wrong. Linux is a great OS. But let's not go into evangelize mode here. It simply isn't for everyone.Yeah, I just think windows isn't for everyone either, so it's hard to avoid going all Torvald's Witness at times.


Now this is a great point, and one I was going to bring up myself if it came around to it. But not quite in this way. All the arguing that goes on between the various aficionados of various of desktop/laptop OSes is almost rather quaint given the extreme asskicking that is going on from both Android and iOS (and, I suppose Windows RT [HA! Not really :smalltongue:]). IMO, it almost doesn't matter anymore. Mobile is completely dominating the computer landscape at the moment (which I hate, BTW) and all of the arguing over what OS to use on a desktop/laptop is almost like arguing what sort of artillery armies should have used in WWII. Interesting, but becoming increasingly irrelevant with every passing year.
Would that make us grognerds*?


You make it sound so trivial. :smallwink: In the Computer as an Appliance age, that IS the most important thing to, well, I'd say the vast majority of people who actually use computers. At least as far as I can see.
Well, you brought up the reason I don't see the current strategy of selling an OS on top of hardware holding up well, we've already got what are basically disposable computers, remarkably powerful ones at that, trying to justify the additional cost while having competitive hardware specs isn't a simple matter.

We're moving towards a situation where whichever bit of hardware you use at any given moment doesn't matter as long as it has the basic interfaces/connectivity needed, and sadly the rent-a-app store model is quite compatible with that type of an arrangement.

I like my system, I like the parts I picked, I like that I built it entirely from scratch, I like that I got to do a very similar thing with the OS. It makes me happy that it runs all slick and stylishly, and that it's all personalized. That's enough for me for now, but I grow fond of my machines... to so many people though, it is just a shiny box of magic that produces answers or games or porn on demand, and that is how things are going to be as we whirl ever onward into the future. May as well get used to it.


*Did I just coin that term? I can't be the first one to have made that joke.

[Porthos]

Yeah, I just think windows isn't for everyone either, so it's hard to avoid going all Torvald's Witness at times.

Trust me, I run OS X as my main op. And I was in the Amiga camp before that. And the C64/128 one before that one. I know all too well about that urge. :smallwink:


Would that make us grognerds*?

Quite possibly. :smallbiggrin: I know I have to stifle a scream when I see Yet Another Webpage 'optimize' for the tablet experience. I utterly hate it, but I'm not sure what I can exactly do but howl into the wind.

*snips points I largely agree with, but will address part of them*

I think there will be some sort of laptop/desktop model for the foreseeable future. They're still very useful, after all. MY Great Fear is everything (outside of Linux) going to The Cloud (spits on floor) in the not too distant future.

I can see a day where what we consider as the laptop/desktop is nothing more than a glorified dumb terminal, with almost all of the 'real' computer stuff happening in The Cloud.

And that scares the ever living crap out of me. :smalleek: Or angers me. :smallmad: Or something. :smallsigh: :smallredface:

....

Yes, I know I'm showing my age here, but you can have my local-based machine when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. :smalltongue:

[factotum]

Sorry to derail the Linux discussion in a thread nominally about Windows, but to go back to the OP: Mando Knight has already explained it's just *mainstream* support that's ending. The other point you make, that Windows 9 will need activating over the Internet--you do realise that's been the case for every version of Windows since XP first came out, right?

On to the Linux thing: I'll just point out here that a typical desktop distribution of Linux is only maintained with updates for eighteen months after release--if you pick a long-term support version, you might get three or four years. After that, your choices are to stick with whatever the last updates left you with, no matter how insecure they later turn out to be, or to reinstall your OS to a newer variant. How is this significantly different to what Microsoft is doing here? The only difference I can see is that you have to pay for a new version of Windows (or Mac OS X, for that matter) and the new version of Linux can be downloaded for free.

[Porthos]

The only difference I can see is that you have to pay for a new version of Windows (or Mac OS X, for that matter) and the new version of Linux can be downloaded for free.

FWIW, OS X seems to be moving to a free update model. 10.9 is free, and 10.10 will be as well. And the three OS updates before that were a pittance (less than $30 each). Of course, Apple can afford to give away their OS for free, given all their fingers that they have in pies elsewhere.

As to your points about the actual Thread Topic, yeah, I'd say those are good points to remember. Especially the fact that support isn't really ending. The other point to consider is that Microsoft kept threatening to end more and more support for XP, but kept having to backpedal because the installed user base revolted (or threatened to revolt). It was, IIRC, only when Windows 7 really gained acceptance that Microsoft was really in a position to start moving the platform away from XP.

As long as there is a very large install base of Windows 7, Microsoft really CAN'T do much to cut them off. Windows 8, even if it has rebounded a bit, is still a pretty big failure from an install base POV from where I am sitting. Especially if you compare it to the acceptance that Windows 7 still has to this day.

IF Windows 9 goes over as well as 8 did? Well, Microsoft might not have very much choice when it comes to keeping support around for Windows 7.

OBLIGATORY NOTE: I actually run Win 8.1 as my other OS on my main computer (mostly because I'm forced to by my hardware setup; otherwise I'd use Win 7). Yes, it actually is pretty decent.

....

After you hit it with a few hammers (Classic Shell, ModernMix, etc) to make it be more like what a desktop OS should be like. :smalltongue:

[valadil]

After that, your choices are to stick with whatever the last updates left you with, no matter how insecure they later turn out to be, or to reinstall your OS to a newer variant.

It's not a full reinstall. You change the name of the release to the last and run 'apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade' as root. I'm sure there's an equivalent for non-debian distros. I'm also sure that there's GUI for debian distros, but I couldn't tell you what it is. If you've tinkered, the upgrade path might not go smoothly. But if you're not a DIY tinkerer you probably haven't set up anything in a way that it won't upgrade cleanly.

[Drumbum42]

Well, besides the "mild" DIYer spins like Mint or the even milder Pinguy

I don't know if I'd call Mint a DIY distro. It's pretty much as simple and easy to use as you can get. I've had very few people have issues with figuring out anything on it when I give them Mint or Ubuntu. Arch or Slackware on the other hand may qualify. (An install disk that goes to command line will scare any new linux user.)


It's not a full reinstall. You change the name of the release to the last and run 'apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade' as root. I'm sure there's an equivalent for non-debian distros. I'm also sure that there's GUI for debian distros, but I couldn't tell you what it is. If you've tinkered, the upgrade path might not go smoothly. But if you're not a DIY tinkerer you probably haven't set up anything in a way that it won't upgrade cleanly.

I ran do-release-upgrade and updated my computer from Ubuntu 12.04 to 14.04 no issues, it runs great. (And there's a GUI for it too!) It's been a while sense I had to reinstall because of an update. This stuff got mostly fixed in the past few years.

As to the "Just install Linux" chat:
First I love Linux, and administrate Linux servers and could not do my job without it, THAT SAID:
Installing Linux on a computer is not 100%. There is a chance there will be odd issues, it was not designed for your specific computer, it's just really good at running on 95% of things. I ran into this with my own computer, I could play Wine games and use all 5 screens OR play native linux games, but not both. (linux + video cards = bleh) I have spent months on this issue, and posted on several forums to no avail. My laptop runs Linux like a champ, my desktop..... "boots." Usually. In this case the only option is windows, or buying all new hardware.

Are my requirements weird? Yes. But may people will have that one "odd" thing. Like a strange network card, or graphics card, or a program that just won't run right in wine no matter what you do. So as to "Just install Linux," if you just want to browse web pages LINUX ALL DAY LONG, but anything more then that, it takes a deeper look to say "this is right for you!" I do it on a person to person basis. There is no magic bullet in anything.

[Max™]

Yeah, I run the proprietary drivers and specifically got nvidia because they at least toss a bone to the linux folks, unlike adobe.

Pretty sure you folks are running something like flash 14.02 or 14.04, I'm stuck with 11.2 until mozilla finally has shumway finished enough that it can replace flash entirely. It ALMOST works well enough to use full time.

Also, I'm not just imagining that the W8 > W9 (which is supposed to be out in a testable form next year?) was super short this time right?

As for new versions, here I am king now. Earlier I saw that firefox 31 was up, thought huh, now to go whip out synaptic or muon or ubuntu software center or yast or... wait... nope.

*click the terminal window on the other screen*
sudo pacman -Syu
*password*
$ These versions are newer than those available.
$ These versions are upgradeable.
Would you like to install these packages? [y/N] y
*blahblahblah, buncha stuff, yadadayda*

Pow, complete version upgrade, including firefox. :D

[wumpus]

*inserts "Futurama I See What You Did There" meme* :smalltongue:

Joking smilies aside, I think most of us know that Linux really isn't appropriate for a vast portion of the public. Any more than fixing one's own car would be. :smallwink:

After more or less giving up my semi-annual repair job on my father's laptop (he isn't happy after I am done, so it's better he keep is four toolbars), I am pretty certain that windows may even be worse for the vast portion of the population.

I'm not sure when I should have introduced macintosh, maybe with the mac mini long ago. If he had a bit more room I'd probably put some sort of locked down Linux partition (they are tiny: my non-home partition fits in <8G) and convince him to do all his banking on that (warning: apparently Wells Fargo insits on making activescript active, and the 12 gods no what else).

[Max™]

Hmmm, I set up an experiment to use rsync and an otherwise unused swap partition as a /tmp partition to run firefox out of, it worked great, wonder if you could get something like that set up so only certain files would be kept while the rest would vanish after he closed out.

Set up his account so it loads into a VM and clear it out every time he shuts down?

[valadil]

I
As to the "Just install Linux" chat:
First I love Linux, and administrate Linux servers and could not do my job without it, THAT SAID:
Installing Linux on a computer is not 100%. There is a chance there will be odd issues, it was not designed for your specific computer, it's just really good at running on 95% of things.

I actually agree.

Here's the thing about Windows and its users. Most of its problems can be dealt with by reinstalling Windows from the CD that came with the computer. However slow the machine feels, if it's less than 5 years old (and that's a conservative estimate) it'll probably be fine with a new install.

But most users are too intimidated by that to actually do it*. They'd rather drop a grand on a brand new machine.

If they're that reluctant to reinstall an OS they know, one that doesn't have many configuration options during installation, how can you expect them to install linux?

That said, I think most of the Windows using world would be fine with a machine with linux installed on it so long as they had firefox or chrome in their toolbar. It's getting linux onto that machine in the first place that's difficult. I've given up arguing it, though I'll give advice to those who are curious.

* source: ~4 years doing student help desk work during college.

[Avilan the Grey]

I would love to do Linux if it was not for two reasons:

1. My wife is of the "I don't want to learn new things" mentality.
2. Games. I need my games.

[factotum]

I ran do-release-upgrade and updated my computer from Ubuntu 12.04 to 14.04 no issues, it runs great. (And there's a GUI for it too!) It's been a while sense I had to reinstall because of an update. This stuff got mostly fixed in the past few years.


I think it's still highly dependent on the distro you're using. Mint doesn't offer an obvious method of doing an in-place upgrade to a newer release, and in fact they recommend against it due to the likelihood if it messing things up. (I have it on my ancient laptop, where Linux and Windows XP are my only choices, so I do have some experience here :smallsmile:).

[gomipile]

I would love to do Linux if it was not for two reasons:

1. My wife is of the "I don't want to learn new things" mentality.
2. Games. I need my games.

1. Most people like that hardly step out of a browser these days except for archiving photos.

2. Wine has gotten a lot better in recent years. The Wine versions in the repositories for the latest two major revisions of Ubuntu run games rather well.

2a. A decent number of Steam games have Linux versions. Steam's Linux client works just like the Windows one(which makes sense, since it's a glorified website in a dedicated wrapper.)

[Avilan the Grey]

1. Most people like that hardly step out of a browser these days except for archiving photos.

2. Wine has gotten a lot better in recent years. The Wine versions in the repositories for the latest two major revisions of Ubuntu run games rather well.

2a. A decent number of Steam games have Linux versions. Steam's Linux client works just like the Windows one(which makes sense, since it's a glorified website in a dedicated wrapper.)

1. My wife definitely do more than that, everything from photo editing, copying and pasting files... As for browser though, that is a problem in itself. She dislikes Chrome, and cannot upgrade Firefox since well, Firefox is starting to emulate Chrome more and more. The latest huge update redid the whole interface to be more Chrome like, so she won't upgrade. And no, IE is not an option. :smallbiggrin:

2. "A decent number" is not the same as "the games I own or want to buy". Not to mention the games i have in Origin, or GOG.

[factotum]

2. "A decent number" is not the same as "the games I own or want to buy". Not to mention the games i have in Origin, or GOG.

I actually installed the GOG version of Fallout on my laptop using PlayOnLinux (wrapper for WINE) and it worked flawlessly, but you're right, there are far too many uncertainties in whether games will work to make switching OS an easy thing--this is the primary reason why I still run Windows on my main PC, and likely will do for a while.

[Drumbum42]

I think it's still highly dependent on the distro you're using. Mint doesn't offer an obvious method of doing an in-place upgrade to a newer release, and in fact they recommend against it due to the likelihood if it messing things up. (I have it on my ancient laptop, where Linux and Windows XP are my only choices, so I do have some experience here :smallsmile:).

Agreed, it is distro dependant. My statement was also a bit broad, but many distros have become much more reliable in this area. I'd also say it's better to do a clean install of any OS when upgrading too. I don't think anyone (other then possibly OSX or commandline only OSes) have really nailed this.


I actually installed the GOG version of Fallout on my laptop using PlayOnLinux (wrapper for WINE) and it worked flawlessly, but you're right, there are far too many uncertainties in whether games will work to make switching OS an easy thing--this is the primary reason why I still run Windows on my main PC, and likely will do for a while.

Ditto, I have been unable to drop windows. It is still the best/only solution for some problems. At least we can get away with Steam streaming, still requires a windows PC though. Fun fact though, many of my older windows games don't run on windows, but run great in wine. "Linux: keeping your old crap going forever"

[valadil]

Ditto, I have been unable to drop windows. It is still the best/only solution for some problems. At least we can get away with Steam streaming, still requires a windows PC though. Fun fact though, many of my older windows games don't run on windows, but run great in wine. "Linux: keeping your old crap going forever"

Me too, but the amount of time I spend in windows has gone down drastically. I think the only thing I boot it up at all for these days is The Witcher. Of course my spending habits are biased to reward companies/indie devs who give me linux games, so my steam library is very linux friendly.

[Drumbum42]

Me too, but the amount of time I spend in windows has gone down drastically. I think the only thing I boot it up at all for these days is The Witcher. Of course my spending habits are biased to reward companies/indie devs who give me linux games, so my steam library is very linux friendly.

I have started doing this too. I was ecstatic when Civ5 came to Linux, then completely heart broken when it wouldn't run without AMD drivers. (AMD drivers broke a bunch of my wine games, including League of Legends) I only play little linux games that have low graphic requirements now, like super tux cart. I still like to buy games that support linux, but I play the windows version, and cry the entire time. :smallbiggrin:

[wumpus]

I actually agree.

Here's the thing about Windows and its users. Most of its problems can be dealt with by reinstalling Windows from the CD that came with the computer. However slow the machine feels, if it's less than 5 years old (and that's a conservative estimate) it'll probably be fine with a new install.

But most users are too intimidated by that to actually do it*. They'd rather drop a grand on a brand new machine.
...
* source: ~4 years doing student help desk work during college.

Oddly enough, I think Linux has been easier to install since well before 2000. This is even before the pain of installing windows is grabbing all the stupid drivers and things not included (part of the woes of being a monopoly) which is the real problem with "installing" windows. This certainly wasn't intentional, but keeps people from installing Linux, even on things like XP machines where it might do some good.

[valadil]

Oddly enough, I think Linux has been easier to install since well before 2000. This is even before the pain of installing windows is grabbing all the stupid drivers and things not included (part of the woes of being a monopoly) which is the real problem with "installing" windows. This certainly wasn't intentional, but keeps people from installing Linux, even on things like XP machines where it might do some good.

Not sure I agree with that. Now that I know what I'm doing it's easier, but my friends and I definitely went through a few years of terrible installations followed by dependency hell. Early on, install ALL the packages was the way to go with Mandrake 8 and Red Hat 7.

By the time Ubuntu rolled around, Linux installation was easier, but I don't think an end user who was afraid of installing windows would ever be brave enough to find out that linux really isn't that hard.

[Telok]

Here's the thing about Windows and its users. Most of its problems can be dealt with by reinstalling Windows from the CD that came with the computer. However slow the machine feels, if it's less than 5 years old (and that's a conservative estimate) it'll probably be fine with a new install.

My in-laws (non-tech, windows users) lose a computer to viruses and stuff every three or four years. No, I don't know how they do it. But every time they've bought a computer since the XP days they haven't gotten an Windows CD. One time I asked at the store where they were going to get thier next computer about this and was told that they don't have Windows CDs any more, you "just download it off the net with your Microsoft account."

I don't know the truth about this because I haven't bought a whole computer or OS in the last fifteen years, and especially not from the brick and mortar stores. But I do know that my in-laws haven't gotten OS CDs with their last three computers and getting a Windows OS off the net isn't happening for them because every time they lose the computer they lose the net access. And I don't think they've ever had any sort of Microsoft account, whatever that is.

If they had a CD or net access to a legal image I'd be perfectly happy to reinstall their system for them. But they've never had one.

[valadil]

If they had a CD or net access to a legal image I'd be perfectly happy to reinstall their system for them. But they've never had one.

I suppose that happened with my wife's netbook. Some manufacturers will instead give you a recovery partition that'll copy a clean instance of Windows (plus their OEM software) over your current installation. Pretty sure IBM/Lenovo does that but I'm not sure who else.

[Geordnet]

Joking smilies aside, I think most of us know that Linux really isn't appropriate for a vast portion of the public.

To the contrary. I'm seriously considering switching my ~80 year old grandmother over to it (she'd probably never notice the difference).



My in-laws (non-tech, windows users) lose a computer to viruses and stuff every three or four years. No, I don't know how they do it.

[...]

If they had a CD or net access to a legal image I'd be perfectly happy to reinstall their system for them. But they've never had one.
All the more reason to switch them to Linux, then. (I recommend Linux Mint (http://www.linuxmint.com/), MATE edition.) Really: it's free, so you've got nothing to lose by trying it.

[Max™]

Last game I played (besides that horrible addiction to FFXI which I've kicked) is Dwarf Fortress, native versions are easy to find of course.

At some point you might be able to build a minecart computer that will run Windows and I'll see if it will run games for me without burning out whatever desktop supercomputer is required to handle it then.

[Drumbum42]

I suppose that happened with my wife's netbook. Some manufacturers will instead give you a recovery partition that'll copy a clean instance of Windows (plus their OEM software) over your current installation. Pretty sure IBM/Lenovo does that but I'm not sure who else.

Almost all of the PC manufacturers have this. I don't know of any that don't. (except System76 who sells Linux Systems) Unfortunately if your HardDrive fails this is completely useless, and you have to spend


To the contrary. I'm seriously considering switching my ~80 year old grandmother over to it (she'd probably never notice the difference).

I moved my sister over (very non-technical) and she liked it enough to request it on her next laptop. (But it was UEFI, so I had to sacrifice several goats before it booted properly) Her only demand was netflix which is easy enough to setup. Her favorite thing was it didn't have to reboot every week because of an OS or 3rd party software update. You should WANT to update your software, not avoid it like the plague.


All the more reason to switch them to Linux, then. (I recommend Linux Mint (http://www.linuxmint.com/), MATE edition.) Really: it's free, so you've got nothing to lose by trying it.

Ohh.. MATE, that's currently my favorite.

[Max™]

That's why I think Chromebooks turned out to be a brilliant idea, people who treat a computer as an arcane box with the internet somewhere inside of it don't need anything else really.

[Avilan the Grey]

This is starting to remind me of the old joke: What if people had the same expectations on all tech as they do on computers?

"Volvo Support, how can I help you today?"
"Hey, I bought this car 3 weeks ago and now it won't start!"
"(Sigh) Have you tried turning it off and on again?"
"It WON'T START!"
"Have you checked that you have enough fuel?"
"What is fuel?"
"You need to fill the car with fuel for it to start."
"If I knew I would have to learn how to do maintenence myself I wouldn't have bought it! I did buy this car to GO PLACES, not to perform 'maintenence' on it! I want a refund!"