First Character; Pistolero

[Adam500]

Hello all. So my group's final 3.5 game finally came to an end (the death of the front-line combatants before an encounter with an adult dragon will do that), and I've finally been allowed to pass the DM mantle on to someone else and get a chance to play. We'll be playing Pathfinder and doing the Emerald Spire super-dungeon that was released recently. I've gotten it into my head to play a Gunslinger (I've always been a big fan of Murlynd from Greyhawk) though I know the class has some quirks that I'll need to adjust to.

What I'd like from all of you is help with my build. I don't know how many levels we'll earn doing the Super-Dungeon (I assume we'll at least get into the teens from the size our DM has told us), but I'm planning out full 20 progression to be safe. I've poured over every Gunslinger resource I could find (the handbook on these forums is my favorite, and I wish it was a bit more up-to-date) and I think I've made relatively intelligent choices for my character, but some of the feat/level placement looks awkward to me. More notes after the build though:

Human, STR 12, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 13, WIS 17, CHA 6 (Traits: Killer, Veteran of Battle)


Level
Class
Feats


1
(Gunslinger) Pistolero 1
Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim*, Gunsmithing*


2
Pistolero 2



3
Pistolero 3
Precise Shot


4
(Fighter) Trench Fighter 1
Weapon Focus (Revolver)*


5
Trench Fighter 2
Rapid Reload (Revolver), Dazzling Display*


6
Pistolero 4
Gun Twirling*


7
Pistolero 5
Quick Draw


8
Trench Fighter 3



9
Trench Fighter 4
Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical*


10
Pistolero 6



11
Pistolero 7
FEAT


12
Pistolero 8
Clustered Shots*


13
Pistolero 9
FEAT


14
Pistolero 10



15
Pistolero 11
Signiture Deed (Up Close and Deadly)


16
Pistolero 12
BONUS*


17
Pistolero 13
FEAT


18
Pistolero 14?



19
Pistolero 15?
FEAT


20
Pistolero 16?
BONUS?*


* - denotes a Bonus feat

My GM has okay-ed crafting Advanced Firearms, though I'd still play the character if he hadn't. I figure I should have enough wealth by level 4-5 to craft a Masterwork Revolver, and so don't mind devoting weapon specific feats to it at that point. I eventually intended to TWF so Gun Twirling is a must (free action reload + free action sheathe + free action draw), but it's early placement in my build might not be warranted. I need to fit Rapid Shot in somewhere.

Other things I've looked at but don't know how early/late to put them in my build: Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Specialization, Point Blank Master, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. I have enough feats to fit everything in, but it seems rather late for some of it. Dropping TWF completely would open my feats up substantially so it may be something to consider?

Finally you'll notice the question-marks on the last three levels. Gunslinger 13 is important to remove misfires from my weapons (not *as* much with revolvers, but still important) however I don't gain a whole lot from the 3 levels after it. I also considered more Fighter for those levels, as well as some Urban Barbarian.

Any advice is appreciated. I'm fairly confident in my first level choices so I can play this character for a while yet without needing the rest of my build, but I'd like to get this all squared away before too long. Thanks!

EDIT: Forgot to include my traits! Advice there is welcome as well. I know the Gunslinger guide hasn't had love in a little while so who knows if my choices are still good. But I get two traits and that is what I've picked right now.

[Chernobyl]

Actually, I'm glad you brought this up, because I've been thinking about experimenting with the gunslinger class myself. So if I may pile onto your thread with a question for the group (which I hope is of value to you as well), what's the benefit of running a gunslinger vs. a fighter with a gun?

The obvious answer is that gunslingers get grit deeds. But I would argue that fighters get twice as many feats, and that as you advance in level the latter become more important than the former. Plus fighters don't need to divvy their stats between Dex and Wis (which, admittedly, is only an issue if you're using the point-buy approach), so you can focus on the stats that give you the biggest bang (pun intended).

Any thoughts? Is there something I'm missing that makes the gunslinger stand out as a class?

Thanks,
Chernobyl

[Adam500]

Its mostly the Grits/Deeds, and Dex to Damage. Granted, Trench Fighter also gets Dex to Damage (which is why I'm taking 4 levels of it, plus feats). Mechanically Fighter X/Gunslinger 5 might be better than the build I posted (I would have to build both out and run some numbers) ultimately it comes down to preference.

That being said if someone could make a strong enough case I might consider flipping my build around.

[NightbringerGGZ]

So my first question would be, which version of the Guns Rules are being used? That really determines a lot on how I can advise you.

Generally speaking though, with a Revolver you don't really need Rapid Reload. It will already be a move action to reload your 6 rounds, and with Metal Cartridges it'll be a Free Action.

Personally, I would take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at first level as I hate that -4 penalty to hit. This is especially true since you'll be dungeon diving.

At level 11 make sure you grab the Signature Deed feat. I would almost say you should delay Trench Fighter until level 12. I don't really think you'll need the feats and extra dex to damage. With Signature Deed: Up Close and Deadly you'll be adding a bunch of extra dice to each shot.

[Adam500]

So my first question would be, which version of the Guns Rules are being used? That really determines a lot on how I can advise you.

The ones from Ultimate Combat. Emerging Guns. However I may craft my own Advanced Firearms later.


Generally speaking though, with a Revolver you don't really need Rapid Reload. It will already be a move action to reload your 6 rounds, and with Metal Cartridges it'll be a Free Action.

Metal Catridges do not reduce the reload time beyond a move action. You could argue the Lightning Reload deed would reduce it to free, but the wording dosn't mention chamber-loaded weapons like the revolver. I'll have to ask my GM about it.


Personally, I would take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at first level as I hate that -4 penalty to hit. This is especially true since you'll be dungeon diving.

At level 11 make sure you grab the Signature Deed feat. I would almost say you should delay Trench Fighter until level 12. I don't really think you'll need the feats and extra dex to damage. With Signature Deed: Up Close and Deadly you'll be adding a bunch of extra dice to each shot.

Since I'm aiming to hit Touch AC as often as possible I don't see the downside to delaying Precise Shot, but I understand the logic. I might flip it and Deadly Aim back around. I can maybe delay Trench Fighter 3-4 til level 14-15, but I desperately need the bonus feats from Fighter if I want to Two-Weapon Fight.

[Hruken]

Metal Catridges do not reduce the reload time beyond a move action. You could argue the Lightning Reload deed would reduce it to free, but the wording dosn't mention chamber-loaded weapons like the revolver. I'll have to ask my GM about it.


Technically rapid reload does not reduce the reload times for advanced firearms either, as it specifically calls out the types of actions involved. In this case, it reduces a one handed firearm's reload time to a move action. Probably an oversight in design (as with a lot of advanced firearm stuff), but worth noting if your DM is very RAW-focused.

[inertia709]

First thing: I recommend getting your dex to damage ASAP. It's AMAZING to get that damage boost when you have a full BAB, you get a ton of attacks each round, and each attack is a touch attack. This means either going with pistolero 1/trench fighter 3 or pistolero 5. I recommend the former since you get the dex to damage ability quicker and you get more feats, not to mention that you get most of the pistolero's best class features at level 1 anyway.

With regards to traits: one trait that is normally a bad idea, but might be worth it for a gunslinger, is the rich parents (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/rich-parents) trait. Taking this trait means that you can afford to craft a double barrelled pistol at level 1. The double barrelled pistol is arguably better than a revolver since it gives you more attacks, without having to spend feats on TWF and worrying about reloading with your hands full. Furthermore, if you decide to use this as your default weapon for the rest of the game, you can take rapid reload (double barrelled pistol) at level 1 and buy some alchemical paper cartridges to fire 2 shots per round at level 1 (although be warned that it will be very expensive to use many alchemical paper cartridges at this level, so save it for the BBEG). Combine this with the +1d6 from Up Close and Deadly, and you'll be a force to be reckoned with (trust me, I've tried it).

Edit: If you're worried about misfiring, the (Greater) Reliable weapon property can help with this. Greater Reliable will remove the misfire entirely even on a double barrelled pistol with alchemical cartridges, although at +3 it mightn't be worth it, even when you can afford it. Personally, I'd focus on getting the Seeking (+1) property first since concealment is a bitch.

[Adam500]

Technically rapid reload does not reduce the reload times for advanced firearms either, as it specifically calls out the types of actions involved. In this case, it reduces a one handed firearm's reload time to a move action. Probably an oversight in design (as with a lot of advanced firearm stuff), but worth noting if your DM is very RAW-focused.

Rapid Reload actually does, as an addendum under the firearm rules. "The Rapid Reload feat reduces the time required to load one-handed and two-handed firearms, but this feat does not reduce the time it takes to load siege firearms."

Will be doing some adjustments to the build before posting further. Thanks to everyone who has suggested stuff so far.

[Chernobyl]

Here are a few low-level feat combos that should help beef up the damage from your revolver:

Get Two-Weapon Fighting (requires a 15 Dex), and then pick up Double-Slice (requires two-weapon fighting). That lets you add your STR bonus to damage rolls from your off-hand weapon (they probably meant to limit that to melee attacks, but until they publish official errata, it includes firearm damage). Then, later on, get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (requires +6 BAB), which gives you an additional off-hand attack (again, with the STR bonus to damage).

Get Point-Blank Shot, and then pick up Rapid Shot (requires Point-Blank Shot and a 13 Dex). That lets you squeeze off two shots per round. This is only useful if you have a multi-shot weapon (e.g. a revolver).

Measured Response isn't bad either. That let's you take the average, instead of rolling for damage.

If you plan on using a revolver, Rapid Reload isn't as important early on, but you should plan on picking it up eventually.

Later on, get Vital Strike (requires +6 BAB), which lets you roll twice the number of damage dice.

Get Weapon Focus (requires +1 BAB), then later on, get Weapon Specialization - Revolver (requires Weapon Focus and 4th level fighter), which gives you +2 to damage rolls from your firearm.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Chernobyl

[grarrrg]

Mechanically Fighter X/Gunslinger 5 might be better than the build I posted

Gunslinger 12/Fighter X is better.

No. Gunslinger 11 lets you take Signature Deed feat.
Apply Signature Deed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/signature-deed-grit) to Up Close and Deadly.
Now Up Close and Deadly is free (0 Grit).
ALL of your Pistol attacks now deal +3d6 damage.

After this you may as well take Gunslinger 12 for the Bonus feat and to round off your Saves and such.


Get Two-Weapon Fighting (requires a 15 Dex), and then pick up Double-Slice (requires two-weapon fighting). That lets you add your STR bonus to damage rolls from your off-hand weapon (they probably meant to limit that to melee attacks, but until they publish official errata, it includes firearm damage).

Two Weapon Fighting with firearms in a pain in the behind. Requiring growing a 3rd arm, a long feat chain, or good enough Advanced Guns.
As for Double Slice, _if_ you can get your DM to agree then go for it, but most will probably just say "Hahahahaha no."


Get Point-Blank Shot, and then pick up Rapid Shot (requires Point-Blank Shot and a 13 Dex). That lets you squeeze off two shots per round. This is only useful if you have a multi-shot weapon (e.g. a revolver).

Or Rapid Reload+Cartridges


Measured Response isn't bad either. That let's you take the average, instead of rolling for damage.

No. This feat is bad. In the long run you will wind up doing MORE damage withOUT this feat (mainly due to 'rounding down').
The ONLY reasonable (ab)use of this feat is when used with Dragon Breath (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/alchemical-cartridges/dragon-s-breath-cartridge) cartridges, and then only so you guarantee you don't Misfire.


If you plan on using a revolver, Rapid Reload isn't as important early on, but you should plan on picking it up eventually.

I agree with this only because Rapid Reload is a weapon-specific feat.
If you take "Rapid Reload Pistol" it ONLY applies to Pistols and does nothing to help Revolvers.
If Retraining rules are an option, then take it ASAP.


Later on, get Vital Strike (requires +6 BAB), which lets you roll twice the number of damage dice.

No. Just no.
Especially because Gunslinger gets the near identical Dead Shot deed at level 7.


Get Weapon Focus (requires +1 BAB), then later on, get Weapon Specialization - Revolver (requires Weapon Focus and 4th level fighter), which gives you +2 to damage rolls from your firearm.

If you have the feats to spare at some point go for it.
You probably won't have feats to spare.

[Adam500]

Two Weapon Fighting with firearms in a pain in the behind. Requiring growing a 3rd arm, a long feat chain, or good enough Advanced Guns.
As for Double Slice, _if_ you can get your DM to agree then go for it, but most will probably just say "Hahahahaha no."


I agree it is a pain. It requires a minimum of 3 feats I wouldn't otherwise take (Dazzling Display, Gun Twirling, and TWF itself), making it difficult to fit some other things into my build where they would be most useful (early Rapid Shot for example, or Snap Shot's line).

Without TWF I'll eventually have 5 attacks/round (with Rapid Shot). Should I be satisfied with this and use those feats for other things?

EDIT: Forgot to ask; You say Gunslinger 12/Fighter X is better than the reverse, but whats your opinion of Gunslinger 13 (or up to 16 since I need Fighter 4 for Dex to Damage again)?

[grarrrg]

EDIT: Forgot to ask; You say Gunslinger 12/Fighter X is better than the reverse, but whats your opinion of Gunslinger 13 (or up to 16 since I need Fighter 4 for Dex to Damage again)?

Actually, Gunslinger 13 for the "no misfires" is solid.

14 is a let-down. "wooo...nimble...+1 AC...yay..."

15 gets 3 deeds:
Menacing Shot is junk. It affects ALL Living targets in a 30ft. _radius_. Meaning you have to worry about scaring your allies most of the time. And there aren't any good ways to boost the DC.
Evasive is pretty handy, getting Imp. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion is nice, and it doesn't cost any Grit. Having to wait until level 15 is a pain though.
Slinger's Luck is handy to have, being able to reroll ANY Save is always handy. The fact that it costs 2 Grit and can't be reduced hurts though.

And level 16 for another feat.


What about the trade-off? What does a Fighter level get you instead (assuming a full 20 levels)?
Gun 13/Fighter 8: Ignore ALL misfire / Feat.

Gunslinger wins.
Gun 14/Fighter 7: Nimble +1 / DEX to Damage with a 2nd type of gun.
Neither is all that great.

Gun 15/Fighter 6: Deeds / Bonus Feat and Bravery +1
Gunslinger wins.

Gun 16/Fighter 5: Feat / +1 To-hit, +1 Damage
Toss-up, depends what the feat would get you.

Gun 17/Fighter 4: +1 damage / Feat
Fighter wins.

After looking at the trade-offs, Gunslinger 15/Fighter 4 is a definite. The last level depends on what is left feat-wise at that point.
As for what levels to take when, I'd go Gunslinger 1 / Fighter 3 / Gunslinger +4 to start. Gets you DEX to damage ASAP, and more feats sooner.
Then probably get to Gunslinger 11 for Signature Deed, throwing in a level of Fighter if you find you 'need' an extra feat at some point.

[Hruken]

Rapid Reload actually does, as an addendum under the firearm rules. "The Rapid Reload feat reduces the time required to load one-handed and two-handed firearms, but this feat does not reduce the time it takes to load siege firearms."

Not arguing that. But if you look at the text of the actual feat, it specifically states that it lowers the time required to reload a one handed firearm to a move action. Since it specifically says move action in the feat, it does nothing for a revolver. I've always seen it as an oversight, but I've had some argue that it on purpose as balance, so I felt it necessary to bring up.

[Adam500]

So grarrrg... most of the level combos you spoiler'd add up to 21. Not disagreeing with anything you said, just thought I'd point that out.

I am probably going to go with Gunslinger 1/Fighter 3/Gunslinger +10 for sure, and follow up based on what I decided to do with feats.

Still not 100% sure whether or not to do TWF.

[grarrrg]

So grarrrg... most of the level combos you spoiler'd add up to 21. Not disagreeing with anything you said, just thought I'd point that out.


What about the trade-off? What does a Fighter level get you instead (assuming a full 20 levels)?

They are supposed to add to 21 because they aren't 'builds', they are comparisons.
If you take Gunslinger 16, then you cannot take Fighter 5. So what is each class worth at that level? Which is better?

[Anlashok]

Two Weapon Fighting with firearms in a pain in the behind. Requiring growing a 3rd arm, a long feat chain, or good enough Advanced Guns.
Or a single hand slot item...




Metal Catridges do not reduce the reload time beyond a move action.
I can't find a source for this. Only thing I see on Metal Cartridges is that they behave like Alchemical cartridges.

[Adam500]

They are supposed to add to 21 because they aren't 'builds', they are comparisons.
If you take Gunslinger 16, then you cannot take Fighter 5. So what is each class worth at that level? Which is better?

Ah! That makes more sense then. Bit of a stressful day yesterday, guess I wasn't really thinking that through.

On another note, I just confirmed the Adventure ends around 13th level. So I really only need to plan out to 15th to be safe.

Gunslinger 1/Fighter 4/Gunslinger +10 is obvious at this point, I just need to get the feats right.

[ghanjrho]

Just as a warning; adding DEX to damage from multiple sources (Pistol Training + Trench Fighter) has been ruled invalid.

[Adam500]

Just as a warning; adding DEX to damage from multiple sources (Pistol Training + Trench Fighter) has been ruled invalid.

Page reference/book/faq link? Cause that would change my build quite a bit.

EDIT: Going ahead and throwing an updated build on here; I took TWFing out of this version, but if people think I should put it back in I'll strongly consider it.

1 Pistolero 1 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Gunsmithing*
2 Trench Fighter 1 - Deadly Aim*
3 Trench Fighter 2 - Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Revolver)*
4 Trench Fighter 3
5 Trench Fighter 4 - Point-Blank Master, Weapon Specialization (Revolver)*
6 Pistolero 2 -
7 Pistolero 3 - Snap Shot
8 Pistolero 4 - Improved Critical*
9 Pistolero 5 - Combat Reflexes
10 Pistolero 6
11 Pistolero 7 - Rapid Reload (Revolver)
12 Pistolero 8 - Clustered Shots*
13 Pistolero 9 - Improved Snap Shot
14 Pistolero 10
15 Pistolero 11 - Signiture Deed (Up Close and Deadly)
* = Denotes a Bonus Feat

[Slipperychicken]

How does Gunslinger13 remove misfires?

Misfiring on an Advanced firearm really isn't a big deal: they don't explode, so it's just -2 to hit and +2 misfire value (you're probably missing on a 5 anyway) until you feel like Quick-Clearing it. I'd imagine it's a better deal to throw down some gold for the Reliable enchantment than to sink however many levels into Gunslinger (which forgoes many feats and weapon training bonuses you could get from Fighter). Besides, the weapon training alone (not to mention the bonus feats) would more than cancel out the penalties. while Broken.

Also, why are you staggering out your fighter levels like that? I'd imagine you'd want to make your first 4 levels as Gunslinger1/Trench Fighter 3 to score dex to damage.

Double-barreled early weapons do carry a danger: If you misfire both barrels of a double-shot, that means your gun will immediately get wrecked (or explode if it isn't magical yet) on account of misfiring twice. The greater Reliable enchant takes care of it nicely, but it comes a bit late as a +3 enchant.

My suggestion for levels: Gunslinger1/FighterX. Partly because you need buckets of feats to dual-wield pistols (see below), and partly because I don't think Gunslinger is worth it after level 1 besides another dex-to-damage at 5. I mean, you can get some nice stuff by level 11 (i.e. Signature Deed-> Up Close and Deadly or Twin Shot Knockdown), but that seems rather late for my taste.

My suggestion for feats:

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Deadly Aim
Rapid Reload (unnecessary while using Metal Cartridges and an advanced firearm, which are a type of alchemical cartridge and thus drop the reload action one step down, from Move to Free)
Weapon Focus*
Dazzling Display*
Quick Draw*
Gun Twirling*
TWF*


*(I only suggest asterix'd feats because of your desire to dual-wield. Otherwise, I'd probably consider Snap Shot, Clustered Shots, or the Weapon Focus/Specialization line. As a matter of personal taste, I'd want to take Improved Unarmed Strike -> Snake Style + Deflect Arrows because matrix-dodging and catching projectiles is really cool)

[Adam500]

How does Gunslinger13 remove misfires?

*(I only suggest asterix'd feats because of your desire to dual-wield. Otherwise, I'd probably consider Snap Shot, Clustered Shots, or the Weapon Focus/Specialization line. As a matter of personal taste, I'd want to take Improved Unarmed Strike -> Snake Style + Deflect Arrows because matrix-dodging and catching projectiles is really cool)

"At 13th level, a pistolero never misfires with a one-handed firearm." -- From their Pistol Training ability.

I posted a single-revolver build in the post before yours, and I think it has fixed a few of my earlier problems. I do like the IUS>Snake>Arrows suggestion, but will have to do a lot more fighter to fit it in.

EDIT: Updated Single-Revolver build, shifted some feats around and ditched Point Blank Master for Gunslinger.

1 Pistolero 1 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Gunsmithing
2 Trench Fighter 1 - Deadly Aim*
3 Trench Fighter 2 - Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Revolver)*
4 Trench Fighter 3
5 Pistolero 2 - Gunslinger
6 Pistolero 3 -
7 Pistolero 4 - Snap Shot, Rapid Reload (Revolver)*
8 Pistolero 5 -
9 Trench Fighter 4 - Improved Critical, Combat Reflexes*
10 Pistolero 6
11 Pistolero 7 - Clustered Shots
12 Pistolero 8 - Improved Snap Shot*
13 Pistolero 9 - FEAT (Almost anything works here, would probably be Critical Focus if I expected to go to 20, likely will end up with Weapon Specialization)
14 Pistolero 10
15 Pistolero 11 - Signiture Deed (Up Close and Deadly)

So... 6 Shots/round with Rapid Shot. Plus AoOs out to 15ft. And my damage is pretty good as well. Should I stick with this or try for the two weapon build?

[grarrrg]

Or a single hand slot item...

If you are referring to the Glove of Storing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/glove-of-storing), that still fails.
It is 1 glove that lets you store 1 item.

Glove on right hand, I 'store' my Right Gun. I can now reload my Left Gun.
It is NOT possible to reload my Right Gun. I can transfer my Left Gun to my Right hand, that still only reloads my Left Gun.
If I 'unstore' my Right Gun, both of my hands are now full.

Glove of Storing does NOT work for Two-Weapon Fighting.


(build)
So... 6 Shots/round with Rapid Shot. Plus AoOs out to 15ft. And my damage is pretty good as well. Should I stick with this or try for the two weapon build?
Looks good.

[Slipperychicken]

"At 13th level, a pistolero never misfires with a one-handed firearm." -- From their Pistol Training ability.


Ah, I always skimmed that bit since it looks like the other Gun Training-like class features. I still think you'd be better off enchanting it with Reliable, since you should have more than enough to do that by level 13 (+1 Reliable Revolver).

If you want to do Snake Style (probably isn't optimal, but I think it's cool), I'd have to recommend taking a trait (like Suspicious (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/suspicious), Cynic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/cynic-regional-mendev), or Talented Organizer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/talented-organizer-milani). There are a few other ones which have the same effect but different flavor text) to get Sense Motive as a class skill, since Gunslingers and Fighters somehow don't get Sense Motive on their skill list. After you take Snake Style, a trait, and put max ranks in it, your SM modifier should be around level + 6 + Wis mod. I haven't tested it out myself, but the math should work out pretty well for you, especially if you can score a Sense Motive boosting item (such as a Crystal Mask of Discernment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universal-items#TOC-Crystal-Masks)).

And honestly, the feats you get after your mandatory feats are more or less gravy. The reason I discovered the Snake Style thing was because, outside of the Snap Shot line and Point Blank Master, I couldn't think of many interesting feats which would provide a significant boost to a gunslinger's effectiveness. Also, boosting Sense Motive that much gives you an reason not to fall asleep when combat's over.


Your current build looks fine to me. Since this is your first character, I advise also finding something to do outside combat, so you don't get bored. I have too often made the mistake of building combat monsters with few useful skills beyond murder, then basically not playing for half the session because my character had nothing useful to contribute until something needed to die.

[grarrrg]

Ah, I always skimmed that bit since it looks like the other Gun Training-like class features. I still think you'd be better off enchanting it with Reliable, since you should have more than enough to do that by level 13 (+1 Reliable Revolver).

Since the plan is to get to 11 for Signature Deed, and level 12 is a Bonus feat (which is what the extra Fighter levels are for anyway), may as well get to 13. Then spend that +1 on something else.


This just in: Gloves of Dueling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gloves-of-dueling)
Get to Fighter 5 and instead of a puny +1/+1 you now get +3/+3!
This probably settles the debate on GS 15/Fight 5 or GS 16/Fight 4.

[Adam500]

Since the plan is to get to 11 for Signature Deed, and level 12 is a Bonus feat (which is what the extra Fighter levels are for anyway), may as well get to 13. Then spend that +1 on something else.


This just in: Gloves of Dueling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gloves-of-dueling)
Get to Fighter 5 and instead of a puny +1/+1 you now get +3/+3!
This probably settles the debate on GS 15/Fight 5 or GS 16/Fight 4.

Those look awesome. Any suggestions on traits? Rich parents has been suggested (and could mitigate low level ammo concerns), my initial choices were Killer/Veteran of Battle; Adding another skill to my list like Slippery suggested might not be a bad idea.

EDIT: For the sake of rule-of-cool here is the Equilibrium-inspired version of the build using Snake Style. Wrote it out to level 20 since some things got moved back by inclusion of more feats. Took Trench Fighter to 5 for the +3 atk/dmg Weapon Training.

Traits: Suspicious (Social); Some other trait
1 Pistolero 1 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Gunsmithing
2 Trench Fighter 1 - Deadly Aim*
3 Trench Fighter 2 - Improved Unarmed Strike, Snake Style*
4 Trench Fighter 3
5 Pistolero 2 - Weapon Focus (Revolver)
6 Pistolero 3 -
7 Pistolero 4 - Rapid Reload (Revolver), Rapid Shot*
8 Pistolero 5 -
9 Trench Fighter 4 - Improved Critical, Snap Shot*
10 Pistolero 6
11 Pistolero 7 - Clustered Shots
12 Pistolero 8 - Combat Reflexes*
13 Pistolero 9 - Gunslinger
14 Pistolero 10
15 Pistolero 11 - Signiture Deed (Up Close and Deadly)
16 Trench Fighter 5 -
17 Pistolero 12 - Improved Snap Shot, Deflect Arrows*
18 Pistolero 13 -
19 Pistolero 14 - Weapon Specialization (Revolver)
20 Pistolero 15 -

Bumped Gunslinger towards near where the build will end on this version, since barring opponents with reach I should be able to 5ft step my way out of most situations that would provoke.

[ghanjrho]

Page reference/book/faq link? Cause that would change my build quite a bit.

EDIT: Going ahead and throwing an updated build on here; I took TWFing out of this version, but if people think I should put it back in I'll strongly consider it.

1 Pistolero 1 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Gunsmithing*
2 Trench Fighter 1 - Deadly Aim*
3 Trench Fighter 2 - Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Revolver)*
4 Trench Fighter 3
5 Trench Fighter 4 - Point-Blank Master, Weapon Specialization (Revolver)*
6 Pistolero 2 -
7 Pistolero 3 - Snap Shot
8 Pistolero 4 - Improved Critical*
9 Pistolero 5 - Combat Reflexes
10 Pistolero 6
11 Pistolero 7 - Rapid Reload (Revolver)
12 Pistolero 8 - Clustered Shots*
13 Pistolero 9 - Improved Snap Shot
14 Pistolero 10
15 Pistolero 11 - Signiture Deed (Up Close and Deadly)
* = Denotes a Bonus Feat

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=385?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#19247

That's James Jacob's opinion on adding the same ability mod to anything multiple times. While I don't think it's an FAQ (I can't find it if it is), the RAI is clear.

[Adam500]

Well, if my DM decides to go with that (I've made him aware of it) that'll devalue Fighter in my build quite a lot (just there for Bonus feats really).

Any suggestions for ways to cope in a single Dex to damage world? And by that I mean any suggestions for Fighter replacements? Since I included Imp Unarmed and Serpent Strike I've been looking at Monk, but thats not exactly a perfect fit. I could switch Fighter to Weapon Master and just go for 3 levels (2 for Feats, 1 for Weapon Mastery) and then fill the rest of my build with Gunslinger (this seems the most sensible option).

Holy Gun could be an option but I'd have to shuffle my stats around (I have a 6 in Cha currently. Could go Mysterious Stranger and dump Wis, but it runs into the same "Can't have Cha to Dmg twice" problem.)

[Sayt]

You could go trench fighter 3/mysterious stranger+.

Touch attacks mean spring your attack stat isn't so bad, and getting two stats too damage is cheaper in point buy. Two 14s is 10 points, an 18 costs 17 points.

You'll have to fork or for a hat and a belt, but that isn't that onerous.

[Adam500]

That is a possibility. +dex+cha to damage versus +dex+Xd6. Flat numbers technically win out due to critical multiplier.

[grarrrg]

Any suggestions for ways to cope in a single Dex to damage world? And by that I mean any suggestions for Fighter replacements? Since I included Imp Unarmed and Serpent Strike I've been looking at Monk, but thats not exactly a perfect fit.

Master of Many Styles Monk is a great dip to get higher up a Style-feat chain fast. The Save boosts are nice, having an Unarmed Attack for if they corner you, WIS-to-AC (if desired). Fairly solid.


Holy Gun could be an option but I'd have to shuffle my stats around (I have a 6 in Cha currently. Could go Mysterious Stranger and dump Wis, but it runs into the same "Can't have Cha to Dmg twice" problem.)

Holy Gun is fine at low levels, but the 'Smite Shot' is stuck at a Standard Action, so it gets worse the more attacks you could make.
But Mysterious Stranger / Paladin (NOT Holy Gun) is a still a solid combo. Stranger for CHA to damage, and then Regular-Smite for extra damage/accuracy is sweet.
Might wind up missing some Fighter Feats though.
Hmmmm...Mysterious Stranger 11/Paladin 2+/Fighter X maybe?

Remember, since the Errata, Strangers get Gun Training, it's just delayed until level 9. So you can get 2 stats to damage from just 1 class.

[Slipperychicken]

Paladin is good mechanically, but I would not recommend it to a first-timer at all. The roleplaying requirements can make your life hell, and I doubt you'll want to play as Dudley Do-Right for 15 levels.

I could get into a rant about newbie paladin players, but the gist is that you'll want to act bad at some point (or even in a way you think is "right", but disagrees the Paladin code), and Paladin gives you a lot of trouble for that.

[Raven777]

Pathfinder has a Paladin archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-vengeance) that's a little bit more forgiving on the code of conduct. Paladins can also make decent gunslingers (http://kcmorris.hubpages.com/hub/Pathfinder-RPG-Archetype-a-Day-The-Holy-Gun), too (ironically, by not taking their gun toting archetype).

[Slipperychicken]

Pathfinder has a Paladin archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-vengeance) that's a little bit more forgiving on the code of conduct.

Not so much if you realize that the Oath stuff applies in addition to the default code.


The oathbound paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin) must abide by the listed tenets of her oath in addition to the specifics of her god’s code of conduct. In some cases, a deity’s or paladin order’s code may conflict with the oath’s tenets; in most cases, these conflicts mean the oath is unsuitable for a paladin of that deity or order (such as the Oath against the Wyrm with respect to a good dragon deity or a dragon-riding order of paladins) and cannot be selected by the paladin.

[Raven777]

It does apply in addition, but it does make life simpler when you're allowed to ignore the party's rogue petty thievery or the party's wizard necromancy while going after the main quest's world dooming BBEG.

[Slipperychicken]

It does apply in addition, but it does make life simpler when you're allowed to ignore the party's rogue petty thievery or the party's wizard necromancy while going after the main quest's world dooming BBEG.

It doesn't annul the normal requirements though. The Paladin still falls for associating with those guys, and it's hardly "distracting" to ditch the murderhobos and focus on the BBEG. With the oath of vengeance, he also falls if the GM thinks he's being distracted with minor things (i.e. sidequests).

[Raven777]

It doesn't annul the normal requirements though. The Paladin still falls for associating with those guys, and it's hardly "distracting" to ditch the murderhobos and focus on the BBEG. With the oath of vengeance, he also falls if the GM thinks he's being distracted with minor things (i.e. sidequests).

From that point onward we're both just nitpicking. A Paladin of Vengeance is entitled to rules lawyer with her own code to make her ends meet, as far as I'm concerned. The Paladin only avoids associating with people who offend her moral code, and merely seeks atonement - not fall - while associating with people who write Evil™ on their character sheet. Which the party rogue and necromancer obviously don't have to, either. All in the name of finally catching Evillus, Doomer of Worlds, Burner of Hometowns, Jaywalker on the Path of the Damned.

But I think we're derailing the thread. We might want to take that conversation elsewhere. I just wanted to convey that playing a Paladin's code ain't necessarily so bad on beginners.

[Adam500]

First off, thank you for the concern but this isn't 'entirely' my first rodeo. I've been a 3.5 DM for YEARS. When I said this was my first character, I meant pathfinder specifically.

That all said, I'll likely be a Paladin devoted to Abadar, and my DM has said he's likely going to be more lenient on my because I follow a lawful neutral deity than he would be if my deity was LG.

I started hashing out a rough build based on grarrg's suggestions, but I'm pretty sure some stuff could stand to be shuffled around, and I'm not sure if I want more Paladin levels than I took. I wrote the build out to 20 again, but campaign ends around 13.

Traits: Extremely Fashionable, Armor Expert
1 Mysterious 1 - Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, Gunsmithing*
2 Divine Hunter 1 - Precise Shot*
3 Divine Hunter 2 - Weapon Focus (Revolver)
4 Mysterious 2 -
5 Mysterious 3 - Rapid Reload (Revolver)
6 Mysterious 4 - Rapid Shot*
7 Mysterious 5 - Snap Shot
8 Mysterious 6 -
9 Mysterious 7 - Combat Reflexes
10 Mysterious 8 - Improved Critical*
11 Mysterious 9 - Gunslinger
12 Fighter 1 - Clustered Shots
13 Mysterious 10 - Improved Snap Shot
14 Mysterious 11 -
15 Fighter 2 - Signiture Deed (?), Quick Draw*
16 Fighter 3 -
17 Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization (Revolver), BONUS*
18 Fighter 5 -
19 Fighter 6 - FEAT, BONUS*
20 Fighter 7 -

[Raven777]

I'll recommend tacking Oath of Vengeance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-vengeance) on top of Divine Hunter, this time mostly for the mechanical reason that it should give you at least one more smite per day. Plus, Oath of Vengeance + guns basically makes you a lighter version of the Punisher.

Scratch that, not enough Paladin levels, conflict over Aura of Justice. Time to go to bed before I post more stupid stuff.

[Adam500]

Looking at the Oaths there are only 4 I could take alongside Divine Hunter. Oath against Chaos might fit for a Paladin of Abadar, and while it changes Smite/Detect Evil to Smite/Detect Chaos it also gives me the ability at 4th to spend the lay on hands attempt to Smite Evil instead.

Worth it?

EDIT:

New build version!

Traits: Extremely Fashionable, Armor Expert
1 Mysterious 1 - Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Gunsmithing*
2 Divine Hunter 1 - Precise Shot*
3 Divine Hunter 2 - Deadly Aim
4 Mysterious 2 -
5 Mysterious 3 - Weapon Focus (Revolver)
6 Mysterious 4 - Rapid Shot*
7 Mysterious 5 - Snap Shot
8 Mysterious 6 -
9 Mysterious 7 - Improved Critical
10 Mysterious 8 - Combat Reflexes
11 Mysterious 9 - Clustered Shots
12 Mysterious 10 -
13 Mysterious 11 - Signiture Deed (?) - CAMPAIGN LIKELY TO END HERE
14 Divine Hunter 3 -
15 Divine Hunter 4 - Rapid Reload (Revolver)
16 Divine Hunter 5 -
17 Divine Hunter 6 - Improved Snap Shot
18 Divine Hunter 7 -
19 Divine Hunter 8 - Gunslinger
20 Divine Hunter 9 -

Not 100% sure about lvl 1 Quick Draw, or Armor Expert (though no penalty Mithril Breastplate sounds nice, I might want an init bonus instead). Otherwise I'm fairly happy with how things look.

[Anlashok]

If you are referring to the Glove of Storing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/glove-of-storing), that still fails.
It is 1 glove that lets you store 1 item.

Glove on right hand, I 'store' my Right Gun. I can now reload my Left Gun.
It is NOT possible to reload my Right Gun. I can transfer my Left Gun to my Right hand, that still only reloads my Left Gun.
If I 'unstore' my Right Gun, both of my hands are now full.

Glove of Storing does NOT work for Two-Weapon Fighting.
Store right gun, reload left gun, unstore right gun, switch hands, store left gun (now in your right hand), reload, unstore, shoot.

[grarrrg]

Looking at the Oaths there are only 4 I could take alongside Divine Hunter. Oath against Chaos might fit for a Paladin of Abadar, and while it changes Smite/Detect Evil to Smite/Detect Chaos it also gives me the ability at 4th to spend the lay on hands attempt to Smite Evil instead.

Worth it?

Potentially.
If you find yourself fighting more Chaotic enemies than Evil yes.
If you find many more Evil than Chaotic best to stick with Divine Hunter.

Depending on the exact campaign you may even be better off ditching Divine Hunter and going Oath of Vengeance instead.
All depends on what you (expect to) come up against.


20 Divine Hunter 9 -
Gunslinger 12 for the Bonus Feat and rounding off your Saves is probably better than Paladin 9.



Store right gun, reload left gun, unstore right gun, switch hands, store left gun (now in your right hand), reload, unstore, shoot.

Both of your hands are full.
HOW are you switching hands?
Last I checked there was no "both hands are full, switch the stuff in them" action.
That's the problem.

[Slipperychicken]

Both of your hands are full.
HOW are you switching hands?
Last I checked there was no "both hands are full, switch the stuff in them" action.
That's the problem.

Pretty much anyone with fine motor control can swap objects between hands. I do this almost every day (obviously not with guns, but sometimes objects of similar size). At the very worst, you can nestle gun #1 between your elbow and chest while you load gun #2. I'd evaluate such a swap as a Move or Free action. Definitely a free action with Quick Draw.

You could also justify it with a rank in Perform(Juggling) :smallbiggrin:

[grarrrg]

Pretty much anyone with fine motor control can swap objects between hands. I do this almost every day (obviously not with guns, but sometimes objects of similar size). At the very worst, you can nestle gun #1 between your elbow and chest while you load gun #2. I'd evaluate such a swap as a Move or Free action. Definitely a free action with Quick Draw.

Going by the rules as-is there is no way to 'switch weapon hands' as a Free Action.

As for resting a gun in your Elbow, I'd say that's more "put an object away safely" territory, which is a Move Action.
And Gun Twirling is the "put-away Quick Draw", and if you had that, you wouldn't need shaky justification to begin with.


You could also justify it with a rank in Perform(Juggling) :smallbiggrin:

I think you'd want more than "a" rank :smallwink:

[Adam500]

Potentially.
If you find yourself fighting more Chaotic enemies than Evil yes.
If you find many more Evil than Chaotic best to stick with Divine Hunter.

Depending on the exact campaign you may even be better off ditching Divine Hunter and going Oath of Vengeance instead.
All depends on what you (expect to) come up against.


I said from the start we'll be playing the Emerald Spire Super Dungeon. I know next to nothing about it except the place is 16 levels deep, and the town that will be our base is LN, but run by a LE group (called the Hellknights).



Gunslinger 12 for the Bonus Feat and rounding off your Saves is probably better than Paladin 9.


I made this change, giving me an extra bonus feat at 14th level (if I make it that far). Anyone see any feats that would work better elsewhere/need to move?