Alignment Question

[White Blade]

So, I have a character in mind who I'm looking to run. Once, he was a very talented and powerful young sorcerer. He was an ardently immoral individual, who took whatever struck his fancy and lived for today like some kind of depraved hedonist.

Eventually, he was captured by an archon and dragged off to Archon Jail in the Seven Mounting Heavens. While on this plane, in jail mind you, he saw all the wonders and benefits of Celestia and decided that the long-term benefits of being Lawful Good were clearly superior to his own present, unfortunate condition of evil and his likely end in the pits of hell (he was frequently advised on this during the many meetings he had with various archons and enlightened souls).

He eventually gets released on good behavior with a tag-along lantern archon to advise him and tell him the difference between right and wrong. Since then, he's gone from place to place helping the locals in a variety of heroic manners in the hopes of pleasing the higher ups and getting into the Seven Mounting Heavens. His character and motivation haven't really changed since he left the mortal plane as a prisoner, but he's really trying his best to be a "goody-two shoes" so as to get into the heavens.

What alignment is he?

[holywhippet]

A toss up between lawful neutral and lawful good I'd say. They are acting according to the rules and acting how a good person should act. I'd lean towards neutral though because they are, after all, acting for their own sake in the long run.

[illyahr]

Everything he is doing is still for his own personal gratification/reward (or avoidance of punishment, if you prefer) and not because it is Good. He is still the same self-serving bastard, he's just looking at his long-term prospects.

That said, cumulative good acts will eventually shift his alignment toward Neutral, and then Good. Also, as long as he continues to heed the advice of his watcher, he will continue to shift toward Lawful as he is working toward self-discipline. I would say that, if he isn't already, he is shifting toward Neutral on that axis as well.

Final verdict: Chaotic to Neutral/Evil but working on improvement.

[SowZ]

So, I have a character in mind who I'm looking to run. Once, he was a very talented and powerful young sorcerer. He was an ardently immoral individual, who took whatever struck his fancy and lived for today like some kind of depraved hedonist.

Eventually, he was captured by an archon and dragged off to Archon Jail in the Seven Mounting Heavens. While on this plane, in jail mind you, he saw all the wonders and benefits of Celestia and decided that the long-term benefits of being Lawful Good were clearly superior to his own present, unfortunate condition of evil and his likely end in the pits of hell (he was frequently advised on this during the many meetings he had with various archons and enlightened souls).

He eventually gets released on good behavior with a tag-along lantern archon to advise him and tell him the difference between right and wrong. Since then, he's gone from place to place helping the locals in a variety of heroic manners in the hopes of pleasing the higher ups and getting into the Seven Mounting Heavens. His character and motivation haven't really changed since he left the mortal plane as a prisoner, but he's really trying his best to be a "goody-two shoes" so as to get into the heavens.

What alignment is he?

It depends on your interpretation. If you believe Good and Evil are objective cosmic forces with arbitrary things labelled as Good and others as Bad, not by any god but just by what are essentially laws of physics, your actions should ping as Good and your intentions shouldn't matter. This view is the only one I find consistent with the fact that random spells ping evil and things like poison are evil.

If you think that there are gods who deign morality and care about intent, then maybe you aren't good. But this doesn't actually jive with the game as certain actions are good or evil without the intervention of gods at all. So I'd say in D&D terms, you are good if your actions are good.

Either way, act helpfully towards others for long enough, even with selfish motives, and most likely it will start to rub off on you and you'll start to enjoy people's gratitude and take it for granted.

[Lord Haart]

I agree with above posters. Going by intent-based morality (as i prefer to do because intent is the cause of actions, not the other way around; doing good things with a bad intent in one set of circumstances doesn't lead to doing good things in different circumstances where it would run against the intent, and vice versa), he's LE (abiding by existing system to the best of his ability for the profit of it without true regard for the spirit of the guidelines he follows), formerly CE; however, in 3.5 proper morality is (objectively and arbitrarily) actions-based, so as far as the game cares, in most regards* he's former CE heading towards LG (whether he's LG, NN or CE depends on how much good and lawful deeds he'd accumulated compared to his evil and chaotic ones).

* "According to the terms of the Pact Primeval, as negotiated between Asmodeus and the lawful deities, the good that mortals do in life is outweighed by the taint of sin. (…) Any lawful character who dies with a corruption rating of 9 or higher goes to Baator, no matter how many orphans he rescued or minions of evil he vanquished in life." © Fiendish Codex 2 (the same goes for lawful acts, as descriped a page and a half below). Basically, Hell is a "you eat a single doughnut at any point in your life and, since we patented doughnuts, all your bank funds now and forever belong to us" kind of shop, so unless the character atones HARD (like, "make a list of your evil acts, personally make it up for everyone harmed by the act №1, apologise nicely, donate a piece of WBL to a LG church, administer a self-punishment in vein of self-flagellation or willing hermitude 'cause the evil shall not remain unpunished, then get Atonement cast on top, rinse, repeat for the evil act №i++"), the main reward for his trouble will be going to the LE afterlife instead of the CE one.

[holywhippet]

I should add that this question reminds me of the old PC game: Planscape Torment.
The main character was an immortal with amnesia. He eventually finds that his original incarnation committed evil deeds big time and he learned his afterlife wasn't going to be particularly pleasant. So he found Ravel, a night hag of the grey wastes, and convinces her to help make in immortal. Technically it works, as he will come back to life if he dies and his body is still intact, but he loses his memory every time. As a result his plan to use the extra time immortality has given him to atone is wasted as his following incarnations are all over the alignment scale.

Also, Lord Haart, your last comment about making a list of your evil deeds and trying to atone sounds like a D&D version of My Name is Earl.

[Lord Haart]

No offence, but you could've put the Planescape part into a spoiler. Planescape: Torment is on my list of the great but lenghty games i've installed and started several times but haven't had a streak of time and dedication to play through yet.


Also, Lord Haart, your last comment about making a list of your evil deeds and trying to atone sounds like a D&D version of My Name is Earl.Well, it's taken almost verbatim from the Fiendish Codex 2 itself.

[Segev]

Well, alignment is what you are in the dark. Is he so dedicated to his goal of getting into Heaven that he'd do the "right thing" even if nobody would know? I'm sure part of his lesson was about how it's the quality of his soul that will determine his final disposition, so there's not a fallible judge for him to trick with a list of good deeds that have witnesses while hiding his evil deeds from all eyes. The deeds stain or exalt his soul according to their nature.

Therefore, if he's genuinely trying, even if he does so because he fears the Abyss and longs for Heaven, he's going to start to care about others as he cares about himself. Because that's what's needed.

If he is not LG now, he is working towards it and will get there. His flaws and weaknesses lie in the fact that the immediate temptations will always haunt him unless and until he can forsake those hedonistic and malicious lusts. And if he is not careful, he will be vulnerable to trickery by vile powers which would seek to make him believe he's already doomed or that he can sneak "just this one" sin and still get in. The Archon will help with that while he's around, at least.

So you've got a neutral to LG character who's struggling with his immoral nature and seeking to be a better person. Even if he thinks of himself as seeking it for selfish reasons, one could argue that even the most benevolently selfless of LG paladins is being selfish: it makes him feel good to help others and he hurts at others' pain, so he seeks to help and prevent others' suffering.

There's nothing wrong with that; one could argue that's what makes a good person, is that kind of empathy, such that he can love his neighbor as he does himself.

Your sorcerer is just coming at it from a strange angle. He'll get there in time if he holds to this conviction, though.

[holywhippet]

No offence, but you could've put the Planescape part into a spoiler. Planescape: Torment is on my list of the great but lenghty games i've installed and started several times but haven't had a streak of time and dedication to play through yet.


Sorry, fixed that. You really should make the time to play it. There's a good reason it is considered a classic and why the kickstarter for the spiritual sequel got so much money. I'd recommend a his WIS build for that game with INT being fairly high as well since as you can notice a lot of things you'd miss otherwise.

[White Blade]

* "According to the terms of the Pact Primeval, as negotiated between Asmodeus and the lawful deities, the good that mortals do in life is outweighed by the taint of sin. (…) Any lawful character who dies with a corruption rating of 9 or higher goes to Baator, no matter how many orphans he rescued or minions of evil he vanquished in life." © Fiendish Codex 2 (the same goes for lawful acts, as descriped a page and a half below). Basically, Hell is a "you eat a single doughnut at any point in your life and, since we patented doughnuts, all your bank funds now and forever belong to us" kind of shop, so unless the character atones HARD (like, "make a list of your evil acts, personally make it up for everyone harmed by the act №1, apologise nicely, donate a piece of WBL to a LG church, administer a self-punishment in vein of self-flagellation or willing hermitude 'cause the evil shall not remain unpunished, then get Atonement cast on top, rinse, repeat for the evil act №i++"), the main reward for his trouble will be going to the LE afterlife instead of the CE one.
Ah, that's lame. What do the characters do if they're too far removed from the victims of their crime?

[SowZ]

Well, alignment is what you are in the dark. Is he so dedicated to his goal of getting into Heaven that he'd do the "right thing" even if nobody would know? I'm sure part of his lesson was about how it's the quality of his soul that will determine his final disposition, so there's not a fallible judge for him to trick with a list of good deeds that have witnesses while hiding his evil deeds from all eyes. The deeds stain or exalt his soul according to their nature.

Therefore, if he's genuinely trying, even if he does so because he fears the Abyss and longs for Heaven, he's going to start to care about others as he cares about himself. Because that's what's needed.

If he is not LG now, he is working towards it and will get there. His flaws and weaknesses lie in the fact that the immediate temptations will always haunt him unless and until he can forsake those hedonistic and malicious lusts. And if he is not careful, he will be vulnerable to trickery by vile powers which would seek to make him believe he's already doomed or that he can sneak "just this one" sin and still get in. The Archon will help with that while he's around, at least.

So you've got a neutral to LG character who's struggling with his immoral nature and seeking to be a better person. Even if he thinks of himself as seeking it for selfish reasons, one could argue that even the most benevolently selfless of LG paladins is being selfish: it makes him feel good to help others and he hurts at others' pain, so he seeks to help and prevent others' suffering.

There's nothing wrong with that; one could argue that's what makes a good person, is that kind of empathy, such that he can love his neighbor as he does himself.

Your sorcerer is just coming at it from a strange angle. He'll get there in time if he holds to this conviction, though.

Your interpretation is more sensible, but D&D morality isn't really linked to morals or ethics. Good and Evil aren't really objective moral forces, just arbitrary laws of physics labeled Good and Evil, and these forces care far more about the actions you actually commit than the nature of your conscience. Cosmic Good is, in my opinion, an evil force in D&D. However, it doesn't care what I or you think about it. It cares what actions you take. So even if in the dark, when no one is watching, the character would commit evil? As long as that scenario doesn't come up, it won't effect his alignment.


Ah, that's lame. What do the characters do if they're too far removed from the victims of their crime?

Something so ludicrously good that atonement will work. Like, save an entire planet at the cost of their own life-long happiness or something I think. If the opportunity to do good on a cosmic scale never comes up in their life, or they aren't powerful enough to do such an awesomely good act, they are just screwed. Cosmic Good is not just or good in D&D, it just is. Don't look to it for ethical or consistent behavior.

[Lord Haart]

Ah, that's lame. What do the characters do if they're too far removed from the victims of their crime?Tough luck then, the Punishment and Side Profit Incorporated isn't about to let you go unpunished just because you're finding convenient excuses instead of going Pun-Pun and using Teleport Through Time and whatever other shenanigans you could've conceivably used if you were REALLY willing to atone. (yes, it's all stacked up against the atoner, howd'ya noticed?)


If the opportunity to do good on a cosmic scale never comes up in their life, or they aren't powerful enough to do such an awesomely good act, they are just screwed. Cosmic Good is not just or good in D&D, it just is. Don't look to it for ethical or consistent behavior.To be fair, they are not screwed because of Good. It's all part of Asmodeus' business scheme, and Good has its hands pretty much tied. Even chaotic good deities seem to realise that, no matter how much they'd like to make an exception for someone who truly deserves it, breaking Pact Primeval would be a Cosmically Bad Thing.

[Duke of Urrel]

I would wait and see.

Your character was originally Chaotic-Evil or Chaotic-Neutral with Evil tendencies, went to Celestia and discovered the eventual rewards of Lawful-Goodness, and now wants to act Lawful-Good merely in order to get rewarded. Presently, your character is somewhere between CE and LG, on a trajectory toward LG. I agree with those who say that your character is actually NN right now, but I would stress that this alignment is still subject to change.

The true test will be a test of patience. If your character really strives to be LG, he or she will have to delay gratification until the afterlife. Your character may get impatient and demand instant rewards NOW for every Lawful-Good deed. If your character fails to get these rewards and really can't wait, he or she may start to fall into some old habits in order to get them. If that happens, your character will come to a halt at pure Neutrality, or perhaps even slide back toward Chaos and Evil. But if your character keeps those eyes on the prize and actually behaves in a consistently Good manner without receiving any immediate reward, your character will eventually become truly LG.

[Segev]

Your interpretation is more sensible, but D&D morality isn't really linked to morals or ethics.That's...not really true. It's one way to try to look at it and reconcile personal disagreements with the morals and ethics suggested by D&D's writers' interpretations of good and evil, but D&D pretty much strives to make good be good and evil be evil. Whether it succeeds or not is open to debate.


Good and Evil aren't really objective moral forces, just arbitrary laws of physics labeled Good and Evil,Being "laws of physics" makes them objective forces. "Moral" might be the word you're objecting to, but it's labeled as such. And, honestly, Good is about helping others and being kind, while Evil is about doing whatever you think benefits you no matter the cost to others. That's pretty moral-centric, to me.


and these forces care far more about the actions you actually commit than the nature of your conscience.Yes and no. Yes, in that from a mechanical perspective, all we have to judge by is the actions taken by characters. None of us, not even the DM, are God, to truly know the heart of the alleged sinner. No, in that there is a very open question as to whether it's possible to live a life where you maintain "good" behavior at all times and don't feel it in your heart of hearts. Just as it's possible to think you're good and commit evil, but evil will stain your soul and corrupt your conscience, would not performing good purify your soul and strengthen your conscience? In the end, I think you'd be lying to yourself to call yourself "evil," in much the way the "fallen villain" is protesting too much that his actions are all selfish, honest, no matter how many people they help.


Cosmic Good is, in my opinion, an evil force in D&D. However, it doesn't care what I or you think about it. It cares what actions you take. So even if in the dark, when no one is watching, the character would commit evil? As long as that scenario doesn't come up, it won't effect his alignment.The scenario always comes up. You're always alone sometime. If the answer is, "he always acts like somebody's watching, so acts good," then he's good no matter what he tells himself in his heart is his motivation. At that point, he'll convince himself to do good no matter what.

[White Blade]

I think that the Pact is a really bad deal. I can't imagine why the gods would sign it. "So, all the evil people go to hell?"
"AND everyone who has committed nine mortal sins."
"Wow. That's super lame. What if they're evil and haven't committed nine mortal sins"
"Oh, they're still ours."
"So you get everyone who has met one of these two criteria? Even though we only get the ones who meet the alignment criteria"
"Only fair."
"Alright, sure, why not."

It's just... dumb business. The Gods are negotiating from a position of strength and they sign a bad deal. That doesn't make any sense.

I would argue that, for young Zerathon (his prisoner name), there is no time when people are not watching. He has a soul that accumulates magical points on the Heavenly rewards card.

[illyahr]

Cosmic Good is, in my opinion, an evil force in D&D.

Dragonlance has something of this kind as well, as demonstrated by the events that lead to the Cataclysm. The priests of Ishtar became so Good that they began to view the Neutral gods as Evil. When they started persecuting followers of Neutral gods, the gods of Good got upset with them. Since the gods of Good were "against" them, then they must be more Good than the gods were. When the Kingpriest finally demanded-let me say that again, demanded-that Paladine grant him the power to vanquish evil, all of the gods, Evil, Neutral, and Good alike, agreed to punish him and dropped a meteor on him and his entire country.

[Lord Haart]

I think that the Pact is a really bad deal.But of course it is.


I can't imagine why the gods would sign it.They were deities of Good (and/or Law); they've signed it in good faith. It didn't occur to them it could be abused. "We punish the sinners who didn't atone in their lives so the mortals have a real reason to choose Good despite the obvious profits of evil's self-serving nature, while using byproducts of the punishment to keep battling Abyss for you" sounded pretty sweet.

[AMFV]

But of course it is.

They were deities of Good (and/or Law); they've signed it in good faith. It didn't occur to them it could be abused. "We punish the sinners who didn't atone in their lives so the mortals have a real reason to choose Good despite the obvious profits of evil's self-serving nature, while using byproducts of the punishment to keep battling Abyss for you" sounded pretty sweet.

This logic frustrates me to no end. It bothered me in Order of the Stick, it bothers me here. Being Good and/or Lawful does not mean that one cannot comprehend subterfuge. Good/Lawful does not mean that you don't understand that Laws can be abused. Actually I find the fluff in the Fiendish Codex books to be fairly ridiculous for that and many many other reasons.

[SowZ]

That's...not really true. It's one way to try to look at it and reconcile personal disagreements with the morals and ethics suggested by D&D's writers' interpretations of good and evil, but D&D pretty much strives to make good be good and evil be evil. Whether it succeeds or not is open to debate.

Being "laws of physics" makes them objective forces. "Moral" might be the word you're objecting to, but it's labeled as such. And, honestly, Good is about helping others and being kind, while Evil is about doing whatever you think benefits you no matter the cost to others. That's pretty moral-centric, to me.

Yes and no. Yes, in that from a mechanical perspective, all we have to judge by is the actions taken by characters. None of us, not even the DM, are God, to truly know the heart of the alleged sinner. No, in that there is a very open question as to whether it's possible to live a life where you maintain "good" behavior at all times and don't feel it in your heart of hearts. Just as it's possible to think you're good and commit evil, but evil will stain your soul and corrupt your conscience, would not performing good purify your soul and strengthen your conscience? In the end, I think you'd be lying to yourself to call yourself "evil," in much the way the "fallen villain" is protesting too much that his actions are all selfish, honest, no matter how many people they help.

The scenario always comes up. You're always alone sometime. If the answer is, "he always acts like somebody's watching, so acts good," then he's good no matter what he tells himself in his heart is his motivation. At that point, he'll convince himself to do good no matter what.

To show that it is inconsistent: Many many spells that are designed specifically to torture and cause pain are fine, while perfectly harmless spells like Deathwatch are evil.

Knocking someone out with an attack that has literally zero chance of causing permanent damage to them through a Wisdom damaging poison is evil, while stabbing them with a fork a hundred times until they die is not. (Some argue ability damaging poisons are painful. But magical torture isn't evil, so that isn't an argument.)

Killing someone instantly using a damaging poison or damaging spell that has been arbitrarily deemed as evil is evil, whereas killing them slowly by punching them to death is a better alternative even if it takes hours to do so.

These forces of Good and Evil don't discriminate. They have no ability to make rational judgement. They aren't gods making decisions. They are just energies and some spells or actions use one energy, and others use another. Ethical good happens to correspond with cosmic Good most of the time by most moral systems, but not always. Ethical evil and cosmic Evil are equally inconsistent, but probably line up most the time.

What really makes me hate cosmic good is its victim blaming. If it is a totally neutral entity that is a law of physics, I forgive it this since it is just energy based without the ability to make ethical calls. If it is, as you say, actually linked to Goodness? Then I stand by my guns even harder and say that the force of cosmic Good in D&D is wrong and is truly Evil. For all vows, if you are forced or compelled to do something against your moral code you must be truly repentant and make atonement for your misdeeds. If cosmic Good is a moral force, it is one that practices victim blaming and encourages flagellation and living in guilt and all sorts of awful, immoral things.

Cosmic Good's attitude in general is far more concerned with arbitrary rules than it is with actually helping people. It doesn't act the way a benevolent god would because it isn't a god. If there is an action that has been labelled good and another action that has been labelled evil, Cosmic Good would rather you pick the 'good act' even if that means thousands of people die. The 'evil act' could save thousands of lives and not harm anyone, but Cosmic Good prefers you not take that act because it gives Cosmic Evil power. Cosmic Good doesn't want to help people as much as it wants to keep the balance of power in its court. It is an inherently selfish force in D&D.

Cosmic Good might also strip a Paladin of its power even if the Paladin made the right moral decision just because he was in a no win scenario. Which illustrates that Cosmic Good is unable to discriminate and make judgements. It has an arbitrary rubric and follows it to a T.

Shoot, Cosmic Good's goal I am pretty sure is to consume everything until all types of energy are just Cosmic Good energy. Right lore experts?

It is possible I would ping Good in a D&D world since most acts I consider right end up pinging Good. But I would place no stock in the alignments and wouldn't care what I pinged since I would still follow my own personal ethical and religious convictions, which I won't go into here. I wouldn't serve Cosmic Good's goals unless I was going to do whatever thing it wants anyway.

If this reads as intense, sorry, I don't mean it to be. But that's my opinion.