Best way to build an effective two-weapon fighter.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was invited to play in a Pure Pathfinder game and I want to make a Two-weapon fighter (the combat style, not the class or the archetype specifically), but since I'm not as familiar with PF as I'd like to be I'm wondering what would be the best way to do. I know that going for a precision-damage heavy build is the way to go and that Ninjas are supposedly pretty strong in that role (compared to rogues at the least), but I'd prefer to avoid that for both thematic reasons and because I'd like to do something else.

As I said before the game is pure PF, the DM isn't allowing 3.5 or 3rd party (which is a shame because otherwise I'd probably go with a Thrashing Dragon Focused Warlord or a Soulknife), but beyond that anything in the PFSRD is probably fair game, we are going to start at level 3 and we are using 20 point buy for stats.

Thanks in advance.

[Corvino]

Generally Two-Weapon Fighting is not as mechanically good as other choices, though I appreciate it's got a lot of appeal. It's definitely a hiding to nothing on a 3/4 BAB class like a rogue or ninja. One of the most crippling aspects of it is the Dexterity requirement, which for Improved TWF is 17, while increasing strength is still to most reliable way to pump out damage. You're also very Full-Attack dependent. If you move or are otherwise unable to take a full round action you're sub-par compared to a 2-hander user or even a single weapon or sword & board user. Precision damage, while more widely applicable than in other editions does not make up for a TWF Rogue/Ninja's poor hit rate.

The best way to get around the Dexterity requirement is probably the Ranger class, or the Slayer from the new Advanced Class Guide. Both get a "combat style" as a class feature which *allows them to bypass prerequisites for feats*. So a high-Strength, average Dexterity Ranger can still get Improved TWF. You'll probably still need a Dex of 15 to pick up both TWF and Double Slice early on. The feat Double Slice allows you to add your full strength bonus to your offhand, and Two-Weapon Rend adds more damage if both your mainhand and offhand hit. The Slayer does also get sneak attack damage, so if this is the route you want then it might be the class for you. The ACG should be out soon.

[deuxhero]

The only "real" way to make TWF "work" is
1: Take ranger
2: dual wield shields
3: Use Shield Master's ability of "You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon" and enjoy 0 penalties for TWF (the cheap enhancement is also nice)


If PF had brutal throw and Gloves Of Endless Javelins (or some way to not throw away money when using throwing weapons), throwing TWF could be decent, but in pure PF you are forced to use the fantasticly overpriced Belt of Mighty Hurling which hurts your strength AND the greater version doesn't really work (You can't hold all the returning projectiles).

[Iwasforger03]

I agree, Ranger or Slayer are two of your best options for a more "warrior" take on it.

You can also try the extremely exacting Crit Fiend build, which utilizes dual wielded Wakizashi's and a variety of critical effects. You'd be using the Weapon Master Archetype of the Fighter. It takes its time getting off the ground, but eventually comes through as a very effective build combo for player a fighter using two weapons.

There's also an Alchemist monk build (you can splash barbarian too) using 4 weapons. It hits REALLY early and is potentially devastating, but I don't know what it's staying power is.

[Dusk Eclipse]

First of all sorry for taking so long to answer the thread, I thought I was subscribed to the thread, but I wasn't.


Generally Two-Weapon Fighting is not as mechanically good as other choices, though I appreciate it's got a lot of appeal. It's definitely a hiding to nothing on a 3/4 BAB class like a rogue or ninja. One of the most crippling aspects of it is the Dexterity requirement, which for Improved TWF is 17, while increasing strength is still to most reliable way to pump out damage. You're also very Full-Attack dependent. If you move or are otherwise unable to take a full round action you're sub-par compared to a 2-hander user or even a single weapon or sword & board user. Precision damage, while more widely applicable than in other editions does not make up for a TWF Rogue/Ninja's poor hit rate.

The best way to get around the Dexterity requirement is probably the Ranger class, or the Slayer from the new Advanced Class Guide. Both get a "combat style" as a class feature which *allows them to bypass prerequisites for feats*. So a high-Strength, average Dexterity Ranger can still get Improved TWF. You'll probably still need a Dex of 15 to pick up both TWF and Double Slice early on. The feat Double Slice allows you to add your full strength bonus to your offhand, and Two-Weapon Rend adds more damage if both your mainhand and offhand hit. The Slayer does also get sneak attack damage, so if this is the route you want then it might be the class for you. The ACG should be out soon.

I'm perfectly aware of TWF failings as a combat style, I know it is subotimal, specially when compared to THF's damage output, but as you said it has a lot of aesthetic appeal to me.


The only "real" way to make TWF "work" is
1: Take ranger
2: dual wield shields
3: Use Shield Master's ability of "You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon" and enjoy 0 penalties for TWF (the cheap enhancement is also nice)


If PF had brutal throw and Gloves Of Endless Javelins (or some way to not throw away money when using throwing weapons), throwing TWF could be decent, but in pure PF you are forced to use the fantasticly overpriced Belt of Mighty Hurling which hurts your strength AND the greater version doesn't really work (You can't hold all the returning projectiles). Not really what I was asking for though.


I agree, Ranger or Slayer are two of your best options for a more "warrior" take on it.

You can also try the extremely exacting Crit Fiend build, which utilizes dual wielded Wakizashi's and a variety of critical effects. You'd be using the Weapon Master Archetype of the Fighter. It takes its time getting off the ground, but eventually comes through as a very effective build combo for player a fighter using two weapons.

There's also an Alchemist monk build (you can splash barbarian too) using 4 weapons. It hits REALLY early and is potentially devastating, but I don't know what it's staying power is.
Is crit-fishing more feasible in PF than in 3.5? Otherwise I'm not sure I want to carry all my eggs in the crit basket. I want to keep the supernatural stuff at minimum with this character, so I don't think I'll go that way.

Quick related question, would Kirin Strike be a good option? Because if I'm reading the feat correctly I could add twice my int mod to each of my attacks, which would be really cool (other style feats look pretty cool too, but sadly they specify you need to use Unarmed strikes).

[Beowulf DW]

Have you considered Titan Mauler barbarian+weapon finesse+twf+Elven Curved Blades+Beast Totem line? Can take a little while to come on line, but it can be pretty fun. Until you get the Beast totem pounce, you can just charge in with one, hit, then draw the other and go to town. You'd have lower strength than most barbarians, but your rage should help make up the difference. I'd recommend a 14 in Str, and then putting the rest into Dex and Con.

[The Grue]

Not really what I was asking for though.

In fact it is. I can appreciate that dual-wielding shields may not be what you were looking for, but you didn't specify a weapon in your original post. We can't actually read your mind; if you have preferences, state them.

[MightyPirate]

Quick related question, would Kirin Strike be a good option? Because if I'm reading the feat correctly I could add twice my int mod to each of my attacks, which would be really cool (other style feats look pretty cool too, but sadly they specify you need to use Unarmed strikes).

Definitely a trap, sorry. Kirin Strike only adds double int damage to one successful attack at the cost of a swift action. Too bad because the style's flavor is just awesome. The Two Weapon Fighter archetype is also pretty rubbish, I wouldn't touch it.

The critical feats can really make the weapon master worth it. Dervish of Dawn gets some amazing mobility options that will probably be really important when you're so full attack reliant. Tactician is also a fun option that gives the fighter some much needed versatility. A tactician adopted by halflings can take the helpful trait and pass out big bonuses to hit like crazy. Dervish of Dawn pairs well with Blade of Mercy and Enforcer for free intimidates.

The bid problem with fighters and two weapon fighting is the lack of extra damage. Precision damage is okay but ninja and rogue are 3/4 BAB classes so the two weapon fighting penalties really hurt. That's why a natural attacking vivisectionist usually wins. Monk and fighter scaling damage is just pitiful, full stop. Cavaliers/Samurai, Paladins, and Rangers even all have much better extra damage sources. Go with an archetype that loses spells if the magic really bothers you. If it's gotta be a fighter that's fine but I'd really focus on something other than damage so you won't feel the burn so bad.

[avr]

Crit-fishing without magic is not easier in PF than in 3.5. Critical feats are nice but require base attack 11 or higher, you're not getting them at level 3.

Personally I recommend a ranger with the guide archetype if ninja don't float your boat. Other archetypes/base ranger depend on your favored enemy being present (when played at this character level.) A slayer would work but the class is all but certain to change when the final version of the ACG comes out.

[Sayt]

Paizo Blog begs to differ, Avr. (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lgbb?Advanced-Class-Guide-Preview-Slayer)

So I'd stick with the Slayer. I mucked up the build on the one I played in jade Regent, but I still had a great deal of fun playing it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Have you considered Titan Mauler barbarian+weapon finesse+twf+Elven Curved Blades+Beast Totem line? Can take a little while to come on line, but it can be pretty fun. Until you get the Beast totem pounce, you can just charge in with one, hit, then draw the other and go to town. You'd have lower strength than most barbarians, but your rage should help make up the difference. I'd recommend a 14 in Str, and then putting the rest into Dex and Con.

I'd heard that Titan Mauler didn't work as intended, I'll still check that though.


In fact it is. I can appreciate that dual-wielding shields may not be what you were looking for, but you didn't specify a weapon in your original post. We can't actually read your mind; if you have preferences, state them.

Actually I was referring to the throwing suggestion. As for which weapon I prefer I'm not sure, any sort of sword would be best, but if there is anything nifty that requires say Axes I wouldn't be opposed to it.


Definitely a trap, sorry. Kirin Strike only adds double int damage to one successful attack at the cost of a swift action. Too bad because the style's flavor is just awesome. The Two Weapon Fighter archetype is also pretty rubbish, I wouldn't touch it.

The critical feats can really make the weapon master worth it. Dervish of Dawn gets some amazing mobility options that will probably be really important when you're so full attack reliant. Tactician is also a fun option that gives the fighter some much needed versatility. A tactician adopted by halflings can take the helpful trait and pass out big bonuses to hit like crazy. Dervish of Dawn pairs well with Blade of Mercy and Enforcer for free intimidates.

The bid problem with fighters and two weapon fighting is the lack of extra damage. Precision damage is okay but ninja and rogue are 3/4 BAB classes so the two weapon fighting penalties really hurt. That's why a natural attacking vivisectionist usually wins. Monk and fighter scaling damage is just pitiful, full stop. Cavaliers/Samurai, Paladins, and Rangers even all have much better extra damage sources. Go with an archetype that loses spells if the magic really bothers you. If it's gotta be a fighter that's fine but I'd really focus on something other than damage so you won't feel the burn so bad.

Well that sucks indeed, and here I thought melee got nice things... oh well. I'll check the archetypes you mentioned, Dervish of Dawn looks really good, for a moment I thought it would be forced to go scimitar (which isn't bad on itself, but I like having the versatility of being able to pick other weapons if needed) and Rapid Attack seems awesome it comes a little late though, but that is part of the course with Paizo and pounce-like abilities.. And it isn't magic per se that bothers me, but I think that growing extra arms and the like is going to far in that direction.


Crit-fishing without magic is not easier in PF than in 3.5. Critical feats are nice but require base attack 11 or higher, you're not getting them at level 3.

Personally I recommend a ranger with the guide archetype if ninja don't float your boat. Other archetypes/base ranger depend on your favored enemy being present (when played at this character level.) A slayer would work but the class is all but certain to change when the final version of the ACG comes out.

yeah I wasn't expecting to begin crit-fishing at level 3, it is nice to have something to look forward too. Forgive me, but from my standing Guide sucks... seriously, Ranger focus can only be used 7 times a day, at level 20 and it is per single creature... yeah Favoured enemy is way better, specially if I can get a wand of "Instant Enemy".



Paizo Blog begs to differ, Avr. (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lgbb?Advanced-Class-Guide-Preview-Slayer)

So I'd stick with the Slayer. I mucked up the build on the one I played in jade Regent, but I still had a great deal of fun playing it.

Concerning the Slayer, I remember reading it and not being terribly impressed.... IIRC it was pretty much full BAB, stunted sneak attack progression, favoured enemy and limited access to Rogue talent. Really underwhelming IMO.

[Sayt]

It's Full BAB, 2/3 sneak attack. It's half favored enemy, but it's not typed locked, you just point at a guy and go "You.".

I don't know which version you saw, the first or the second, but the second as pretty damn good, IMHO. And word-of-blog says they're getting more Slayer talents than they used to have.

If you've got a flanking buddy in the game, I highly suggest Outflank and the Opportunist Advanced Talent.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Can't recall, probably the first one since I was pretty exited for it back when they announced the ACG. I'm not sure about the rest of the party except for an aasimar wizard.

[grarrrg]

Forgive me, but from my standing Guide sucks... seriously, Ranger focus can only be used 7 times a day, at level 20 and it is per single creature... yeah Favoured enemy is way better, specially if I can get a wand of "Instant Enemy".

It's better for low level (no 'Instant Enemy") games where you don't face hordes of one type of enemy. Then it's used more as a "Smite" variation.
It's main selling point is the "pick ANYONE as a target".

Freebooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/freebooter) is a similar "better but worse" option. As a Move action (worse) you can designate an Enemy and get +1/+1 bonuses (half what Favored Enemy would give, worse), but EVERYONE gets to share the bonus (better) and it can target ANY Enemy (better).
As a better selling point over Guide, there is no 'X/day' limit.

But if Instant Enemy is a possibility, then keep Favored Enemy.

[Shinken]

As I said before the game is pure PF, the DM isn't allowing 3.5 or 3rd party (which is a shame because otherwise I'd probably go with a Thrashing Dragon Focused Warlord or a Soulknife), but beyond that anything in the PFSRD is probably fair game, we are going to start at level 3 and we are using 20 point buy for stats.

You could even be a Thrashing Dragon Soulknife! Sadly that's not an option :smallfrown:

About Rangers, I like the Skirmisher archetype for multiclass Rangers. The extra 5-ft step trick is pretty good.

[Beowulf DW]

I'd heard that Titan Mauler didn't work as intended, I'll still check that though.

The part you're concerned with is Jotungrip.


At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

It can take some work to pull off, but I guarantee no one in your group will forget the "sight" of a guy running around with two two-handed weapons.

It's Massive Weapons that doesn't quite work as intended. Though, it might be more accurate to say, "work as we thought it intended," considering the errata. You could also probably talk to your dm about it, though the build I suggested doesn't even make use that feature.

[avr]

The wand of instant enemy costs a minimum 3*7*750 = 15750 gp and adds at least a standard action and a move action to your buffing routine (no wand chambers or quick drawing wands in PF; Weaponwand doesn't really last long enough). It's better eventually but personally I prefer a plan which peaks a little earlier. YMMV.

For what you're doing the Slayer with the modifications in the blog Sayt linked does sound like it could be the best 2WF killer.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Instant Enemy is great. Sure it's limited use but the spell is a boss killer. If you're playing a Ranger your GM is hopefully not being a **** and letting you know if you're picking Favored Enemies that will rarely or never show up.

That being said, if you can wait a couple of weeks for the new book, I would also champion the Slayer. You have the option of picking up a Ranger combat style, and if you combo that with the right Deity (so you can pick from the expanded list of combat styles in Inner Sea Deities) you will basically have your pick of bonus feats for whichever TWF format you prefer. You'll be a Full BAB melee character that is capable of a Strength-Based TFW style for extra damage, the ability to add bonus damage and attack roll bonuses to targets of your choice (at will) and a bit of extra Sneak Attack damage. There will be no magic involved at all, just pure killing power. Oh, you'll have a decent number of skills per level.

[Dragon-Rider]

I found a link to this over on the Paizo forums: Bladestorm: STR Ranger's Guide to TWF for Fighters (https://docs.google.com/document/d/178CAoRPv-ST4ntUWwDFmkX5mi5Tm3pB1MGtoLXpG1D4/edit?pli=1). It may be of some use to you.

~Dragon-Rider