Spirit Shaman Tier? Plus, is it strong?

[Yael]

I just read it, and it has the druid Spell list, and it acts as a "prepared" sorcerer, because she can change the spells she knows each day by sending its spirit companion to the Spirit World. I see it tier 1-2? Maybe at the edge of tier 2 (to tier 3)? I just can't place it, I see it as a strong class (versatility) with the Druid spell list, and I didn't find it at the Tier System for Classes. Halp?

[eggynack]

To my knowledge, no one has ever really been able to adequately place the class. I've seen arguments for anywhere within that tier range. Personally, I place the class at high tier two/low tier one. The tricky part of the class is that you don't exactly get the full druid list. It's not explicitly the case, but to some extent, a druid's source of overland flight is inextricably linked to wild shape, as are a bunch of other spell effects. Similarly, having a solid wild shape body, an animal companion, and a pile of summons, is core to druid buffing strategies of all types.

There are a lot of problems like that deriving from the lack of class features that aren't made immediately evident by the "Spells are everything" perspective of the tier system. Still, the druid list is potent in and of itself, and losing tons of classic druid optimizations strategies doesn't stop that from being true. I don't know if the spirit shaman can hang out at tier one, but they're certainly not too far behind.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To my knowledge, no one has ever really been able to adequately place the class.
Pretty much this. You can argue:

Tier 1 (Low)-- Full 9th level casting from the third best list in the game, with access to all spells from all books.
Tier 2-- The Druid list is the weakest of the big three, and he doesn't get enough spells retrieved each day. Without Wildshape (and ensuing SAD), the Animal Companion, and spontaneous summoning*, he doesn't quite have the power to reach T1. Thus, T2.
Tier 3 (High)-- He's got too much day-to-day versatility to fit the definition of T2. If the Druid list alone isn't enough for T1 (doing everything overpoweringly well), he drops to T3 (doing everything decently and/or one thing well and everything else OK).



*He has to waste spells retrieved on SNA, rather than it being an always-relevant replacement for normal spells.

[nedz]

I have seen several threads which have attempted to resolve this question — none have.

Tier 1 (Prepared casters) have strategic flexibility.
Tier 2 (Spontaneous casters) have tactical flexibility.
Spirit Shaman has a bit of both.

[Psyren]

I put it in T2. Yeah it has a bit more situational power than the standard spontaneous casting model, but the MADness and the general weakness of the druid list (not offset by an animal companion or wildshape) limit it somewhat.

And yes, it is strong, like all T2 classes.

[Tvtyrant]

Second best spell list and the ability to take advantage of the best spell casting system WotC ever invented? Tier 1 for sure. It gets flight at level 1 like a Druid (Winged Watcher), all of their debuffs, etc. Spirit Shaman has a kind of cruddy chassis, but it rocks the spells.

[Tulya]

In the original tier list, the distinction between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is set out as a difference in day-to-day flexibility rather than relative power level. Under that reasoning, some argue that the Spirit Shaman is incapable of being Tier 2 due to its capacity to redo its spell list completely each day. Either its list has a sufficient number of spells across the levels that enable it to solve nearly every problem given a day (Tier 1), or it doesn't (Tier 3).

Others contest that the Spirit Shaman is effectively forced to play as a Sorcerer due to the extremely low number of spells retrieved, in that they must choose spells with great general utility to compensate. Even if you knew in advance most of the challenges you were going to face, how much can you actually afford to specialize your list? In practical considerations, that could knock a Tier 1 list down to an effective Tier 2.

Finally, some argue that the Druid list is one of the weakest of the Tier 1-2 cluster in terms of options capable of resolving any problem, and that while the Druid offsets these deficits with powerful and flexible class features, the Spirit Shaman's class features are much less dramatic.

[stack]

Agreeing with Tulya. It is either low one or high three depending on how you rate the Druid list, but in practice mostly plays as two (if you consider the Druid list powerful enough on this chassis), hence these threads spinning in circles.

[KorbeltheReader]

I'd put him lower rather than higher as well (t2, perhaps t2.5). The fact of having full casting and daily spell selection is offset by the fact that the spell list is rather ill-fitting. As said above, the spells make sense for a class with wild shape and an animal companion, but a guy who isn't as comfortable in melee and isn't doing a lot of shapeshifting and has to spend a round summoning animal allies before he can buff them is going to spend a lot of time wishing he had the cleric list instead.

[Zaq]

A lot depends on how well you can hack extra spells onto your list, and what stance your GM takes on domains (Complete Divine is entirely unclear how Spirit Shamans deal with domains).

Overall, though, I've played one, and I definitely felt like I could always pull out the perfect spell for the situation. I felt like a T1 caster. (I've never seriously played another T1 caster, for what that's worth—I don't like having that much responsibility, more often than not.) I was, admittedly, pretty damn high level, so I recognize that I may have felt more constrained if I was lower-level and had to marshal my spells more carefully. But I still felt like I had all the tools I could ever want, and if I didn't have the perfect tool (though I usually had close enough), I sure as hell would have it tomorrow.

At high levels, it's definitely T1. By the time you're picking out a couple dozen different spells retrieved, you've got all the tricks you need, chosen fresh daily. At low levels, I can see an argument for T2.

They're still hella strong. The Druid list is a monster. (One might even call it a beast, if one weren't afraid of coming off as too cute.)

[Tvtyrant]

The linked post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221979-Druid-Help&p=12183941#post12183941)is a good example of how strong their spell list is at low levels.