[3.5] Opinions on potions

[erok0809]

So I was talking with a friend of mine about the use of healing potions, especially in battle. He acknowledges that a wand is better than a potion in most circumstances, especially out of battle. But he wants to know why the Playground tends to dislike potions, like for the beatstick of the party to carry a few in case he needs healing in combat. He does understand that it would be a waste for the cleric/other spellcaster to use his action to heal you, since he could be casting a spell with that slot or action. I tried to explain that in most cases it's better to use your actions to attack than to heal yourself, but I don't think I was able to phrase it right. Can someone more knowledgeable than I am put it into words so I can show it to him? Or is he right? Thanks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I believe the main arguments are that potions provoke AoOs, and are extremely non-cost efficient. (And good luck getting one strong enough to matter in combat) The standard non-caster healing item is a Healing Belt (MiC), which lets anyone heal a few d8/day for 750 gold.

[Aetis]

So I was talking with a friend of mine about the use of healing potions, especially in battle. He acknowledges that a wand is better than a potion in most circumstances, especially out of battle. But he wants to know why the Playground tends to dislike potions, like for the beatstick of the party to carry a few in case he needs healing in combat. He does understand that it would be a waste for the cleric/other spellcaster to use his action to heal you, since he could be casting a spell with that slot or action. I tried to explain that in most cases it's better to use your actions to attack than to heal yourself, but I don't think I was able to phrase it right. Can someone more knowledgeable than I am put it into words so I can show it to him? Or is he right? Thanks.

Actually, it seems like he understands the usual arguments.

There's also nothing wrong with the beatstick to carry couple healing potions he found if it makes him feel more secure. (maybe they'll come in handy if they can't afford a healing belt yet and he's the last one standing in a fight with all of his friends in negatives or something)

[VoxRationis]

Some people don't have compendia filled with readily available magic items of one's choosing.

[jiriku]

Fighter is wounded. Fighter takes move action to withdraw potion, provoking an opportunity attack. He is hit for 10 damage. Fighter drinks the potion, provoking an opportunity attack. He is hit again for 10 damage. Potion heals 15 points of damage. Fighter is now worse off than when the round began, has expended his potion, and has used up his standard and move actions. I've seen it happen.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Fighter is wounded. Fighter takes move action to withdraw potion, provoking an opportunity attack. He is hit for 10 damage. Fighter drinks the potion, provoking an opportunity attack. He is hit again for 10 damage. Potion heals 15 points of damage. Fighter is now worse off than when the round began, has expended his potion, and has used up his standard and move actions. I've seen it happen.

Fighter should learn to 5ft step.

Mostly it's the increased cost over other healing methods and the fact that the spells potions are based on don't really heal enough to make them viable in-combat healing (and too expensive out of combat). There's nothing wrong with carrying one or two as emergency measures, because drinking a potion is still cheaper than Raise Dead (or a total party wipe).
Relying on them for your healing needs is not a very good idea though since they're both expensive and inefficient.

[Coidzor]

They're too expensive in GP cost.

They take too long to get to and then use in battle.

They're too fragile if carried in a convenient to use format.

The spell cut off for them is too low, which makes healing relevant/meaningful amounts of damage difficult.

So far the best use for potions I've heard of is to give them to a packmate homonculus (basically a walking treasure chest with arms and legs, IIRC) and having them act as a potion delivery vehicle for critically injured or downed combatants.

[Darrin]

Glyph Seals (1000 GP, MIC) are more efficient. Key it to a pocket or piece of ammunition. Load 'em up with 1st/2nd level buff spells beforehand, and the fighter can activate them as a free action.

[HighWater]

Potions are good as back-up, back-up healing. They can be used to stabilise, or return to consciousness when all other methods would fail.

So, you bought a wand of CLW for your druid so he can cast healing spells after the fight? Well, what if that druid is unconscious and busy bleeding out, and nobody else can cast from that wand? That's where potions come in.

They are useful when you have no healing belt, or you're out of charges, and nobody's got a wand left or is able to use it. Especially at low levels, screwing up your heal checks to stabilise someone is very possible, and if that someone is the only healer, well...

You can also use them as a (rather expensive) ranged touch attack against undead, if you're out of options.

Wands are much better value for money, if somebody can use them. If nobody is around that can use them, they are very worthless. It is nice to have a few potions on reserve for when you're in a pinch and somebody needs to be healed, no matter the increased cost. Potions should no be your go-to option though, especially not during combat in which case healing is pretty much never worth it, healing with weak and expensive potions doubly so...

[nedz]

Potions only advantage is that they are silent. So they are a good thing for the sneaky rogue to carry — probably not for healing though, other spells are available in this format.

[Segev]

My biggest complaint about potions is that, unless you get the feat for free from a class feature for some reason, it's always better to take Craft Wondrous Item. Now you can build one-shot magic items of spells of ANY level and with fewer targeting restrictions for the same price and at the same character level. And they won't trigger AoOs to use or retrieve if you make them command-word activated.

[Zanos]

Some people don't have compendia filled with readily available magic items of one's choosing.
Wands are core.

[VoxRationis]

Not everyone plays wand-using classes or invests in cross-class UMD.

[Dawgmoah]

I would offer that at lower levels, if possible, to carry a healing potion for healing between combat encounters rather than trying to use a potion in the middle of melee. Low level characters can be finished off through attrition with them taking a few points of damage here and there. Of course they need to be able to survive the combat...

[Brookshw]

Man, and here was hoping we'd be discussing mixing potions and potential disasters, bring back mixing potions!

[Coidzor]

Man, and here was hoping we'd be discussing mixing potions and potential disasters, bring back mixing potions!

Was that the April Fool's article on the WOTC site or one of the dragon ones?

[Brookshw]

Was that the April Fool's article on the WOTC site or one of the dragon ones?

Well it was a 1e rule that could be lots of fun, not sure if they did an update.

[Vorandril]

Healing potions may not be all that great. But it's hard to argue with potions when your fighter and barbarian get cut off from the group mid dungeon-run and need a couple buffs. Like Bull Strength.

Whenever I'm playing a martial character I tend to keep a couple of the stat boosting potions on me. And an Enlarge Person. Just in case. Especially when your DM makes the mistake of letting you drink 4 of them at once before initiating a surprise round. Large sized dwarf cleric with druid and wizard buffs comes charging around a corner. Those orcs shat themselves when I rolled to intimidate after squashing their leader with my 2 handed hammer.

"For Kaz Modan, hookers."

[nedz]

Was that the April Fool's article on the WOTC site or one of the dragon ones?

It was an April Fool's article on the WOTC site. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b)

[SouthpawSoldier]

Beautiful imagery.

I'm surprised no one has cobbled up a DnD version of a bladder bag (Camelbak) to make potion use a free action (or at least a move w/o AoO). I've seen similar rigs with bandoleers and such for other tools. Plenty of history of making toys and net floats from animal bladders and stomachs. Not hard to imagine a barbarian tribe flushing the bladder and urethra of an aurochs or similar animal, or at least crafting a
bota bag for quicker sipping. Not like glass bottles are a common comodity for a tribes shaman to store potions. Figure potions and tinctures are a standard part of primitive healing, as well.

Reading up on bota bags, I came across "zurrust" drinking. Wonder if one could perform an assisted ranged attack to squirt some potion at an ally. is there a topical version of potions in DnD?.....Even better; a bota loaded with holy water, and a halfling squeezing it under his arm to squirt Undead.

[Jormengand]

Potions are also useful if you want a fairly low-level person dead. If you're a 5th-level wizard, you can craft a potion of Shocking Grasp, give it to the rogue to slip into a low-level NPC's drink, and voila, dead NPC. How about a potion of touch of idiocy? Won't kill anyone, sure, but it might screw up someone's important event. If you can somehow manage to make 4th-level potions, how about Enervation? Because all functions of the spell are determined on casting, how about Dimension Door into another room? At third level, we have Contagion if you're a cleric or druid, and poison if you're a druid.

How about a potion of Lesser Geas made by a bard?

[Coidzor]

Healing potions may not be all that great. But it's hard to argue with potions when your fighter and barbarian get cut off from the group mid dungeon-run and need a couple buffs. Like Bull Strength.

Whenever I'm playing a martial character I tend to keep a couple of the stat boosting potions on me. And an Enlarge Person. Just in case. Especially when your DM makes the mistake of letting you drink 4 of them at once before initiating a surprise round. Large sized dwarf cleric with druid and wizard buffs comes charging around a corner. Those orcs shat themselves when I rolled to intimidate after squashing their leader with my 2 handed hammer.

"For Kaz Modan, hookers."

Oh, yeah, there definitely are situations where one would take advantage of them or wish one had some, but they're still a thing to be used sparingly, even there. Or maybe it's more of a fasting-then-feasting sort of thing, where one might as well layer on several of them for maximum effect instead of doing them piece-meal.


Well it was a 1e rule that could be lots of fun, not sure if they did an update.


It was an April Fool's article on the WOTC site. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b)

Thank you, nedz. :smallsmile:

Hope you enjoy it, Brookshw.

[Brookshw]

It was an April Fool's article on the WOTC site. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b)

Nice! They did bring it back :smallbiggrin:

[Zaq]

The best way to use potions is to take the feat Delay Potion (Complete Mage) and combine it with the spell Quick Potion (SpC, not sure if it was from an earlier book first). Note that the person with Delay Potion doesn't have to be the same person who has Quick Potion. Anyway, potions are really expensive, but Quick Potion makes them cheap. Potions are inconvenient and action-hungry, but Delay Potion makes them into a single swift action, which is awesome. It's a win for the caster: past the very lowest levels, spending a 2nd level slot to get one of your spells on the field as a swift action—as your ally's swift action, no less—is absolutely a winning trade. It's a win for the recipient: buffs are awesome, and swift-action buffs are more awesome. Even a wand of Quick Potion is a good idea: it costs 4,500 gp, and 50 potions costs 37,500 gp (3rd level) or 15,000 (2nd level). You could even buy a wand of Quick Potion and a wand of your 3rd level spell of choice for less than half the cost of 50 3rd level potions, and that doesn't involve the party caster using up a single spell slot!

I've never been in a party where this dynamic is possible, but I would love to explore the possibility.

[Bronk]

There is also a prestige class in Magic of Faerun, the Master Alchemist, that allows the brewing of up to ninth level potions...

[ace rooster]

The main difference between potions and wands is that wands carry far more castings. They are far cheaper per casting, but if you are only going to need the spell cast once then a potion is far cheaper. I know partially charged wands exist, but good luck getting a DM to accept your one charge wand collection. Scrolls are a better comparison to potions, with less of a price difference. The problem with scrolls is that only casters can use them, and only in good circumstances. If the caster is busy you can't use them, so potions are much faster if the whole party needs a spell.

Healing is used regularly, so is a good candidate for a wand, but spider climb would not be for most PCs. When you need water breathing, you tend to need it fast, so every party member carrying a potion of water breathing would not be a bad idea for a naval campaign. Delay poison is a good potion to have in case you suddenly need it, as stinking clouds will seriously affect your ability to use a scroll. Remove blindness is a useful potion to have, as a caster needs to be able to see to use a scroll.

Potions certainly have their uses, even for parties that have every caster under the sun.

[Urpriest]

Healing potions in combat are (mostly) bad because healing in combat in general is bad, and potions (unless you pay extra to buy them at extra CL) are usually worse than getting healed by your allies.

Basically, it's not just casters who value their actions. In a round a medium-op martial character can kill an enemy, or debuff one to the point of uselessness. Compare that to healing 6/12/19 damage, far less than the enemy did last turn or will do next turn. It's just not a useful thing to do in combat.

[Vaz]

Skull Talismans are better.

Combine with Elder Giant Magic (bone components), Black Lore of Moil, and Bone Talisman spell, and you have 'potions', Turn Undead, the ability to add damage to your spells, and increased Caster Level.

[Story]

Well it was a 1e rule that could be lots of fun, not sure if they did an update.

Fun in the Dwarf Fortress sense?


Anyway, if you're party is getting into combat while split up, you have bigger issues (Not to mention half the players sitting around bored). But ideally your melee types can stand on their own in a pinch (Totemist, Psychic Warrior, Crusader, etc.) And is the situation where your meelee guys are split from the rest of the party and they get into combat AND they are given buff rounds really that common? I've never seen it happen.

[holywhippet]

The main use for healing potions IMO is when a fight or situation has turned nasty. Most of the party is down, and all of the healers are down. The high HP characters like the fighter or barbarian are still on their feet but only just. They can't carry the entire party to safety by themselves and can't wait for them to eventually come back to positive HP. So they pull out a healing potion and pour it down the throat of someone who has healing magic of some description so that they can get the rest of the party back on their feet.

Potions are for emergencies or for tough situations unless you have a lot of gold at your disposal.

[Story]

See, my idea of emergency measures are stuff like a Feather Token: Tree, or a Glyph Seal storing Invisibility. Guess it just depends on your optimization preferences.

[Sir Chuckles]

See, my idea of emergency measures are stuff like a Feather Token: Tree, or a Glyph Seal storing Invisibility. Guess it just depends on your optimization preferences.

Well that doesn't keep your dying Cleric in a level 3 party alive. I've rarely bought potions, unless it was with final spare cash, though I semi-frequently toss a Maximized Potion of Cure X Wounds at my group. They've saved several lives in my group, but usually only after collecting quite a bit of dust.

Strangely, I don't think lack of a potion has ever resulted in death, at least none I can remember. There's usually some other saving grace.

[khadgar567]

if remember correctly there is item called utility belt in wiki changes it to swift actionhttp://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Utility_Belt_(3.5e_Equipment)

[Segev]

Delay Potion is an interesting one. I'll have to look into it. Quick Potion doesn't make potions worthwhile, certainly not as in the Brew Potion feat, but it at least makes the form factor usable.

Still, I'd rather have Craft Wondrous Item and make "rocks of [x spell]" as one-shot items rather than potions of the same spells, since rocks can be up to 9th level spells and cost no more than do the potions.

[Jormengand]

if remember correctly there is item called utility belt in wiki changes it to swift actionhttp://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Utility_Belt_(3.5e_Equipment)

Yes, but that's homebrew, so...

[Amphetryon]

Not everyone plays wand-using classes or invests in cross-class UMD.

You are correct; it is possible to construct isolated, specific scenarios in which potions are decent options. That does not necessarily translate to them being fundamentally good or efficient choices.

[lytokk]

I remember in I think the complete arcane they mention a potion replacement called tiles, but I couldn't ever find creation rules for them. I assume there's a craft feat associated with them, but which one? Creation involved inscribing a rune on a clay tile and usage involved breaking them.

[Jormengand]

I remember in I think the complete arcane they mention a potion replacement called tiles, but I couldn't ever find creation rules for them. I assume there's a craft feat associated with them, but which one? Creation involved inscribing a rune on a clay tile and usage involved breaking them.

They are, incidentally, hilariously abusable by truenamers, because they can re-make them whenever they use them.

[Amphetryon]

I remember in I think the complete arcane they mention a potion replacement called tiles, but I couldn't ever find creation rules for them. I assume there's a craft feat associated with them, but which one? Creation involved inscribing a rune on a clay tile and usage involved breaking them.

As I recall, that passage was describing a different way in which 'potions' could be fluffed in a given campaign world.

[Bronk]

There's also the 'delicate disk' spell... that works in a similar way to a potion, only with more options.

[ace rooster]

Still, I'd rather have Craft Wondrous Item and make "rocks of [x spell]" as one-shot items rather than potions of the same spells, since rocks can be up to 9th level spells and cost no more than do the potions.

Craft Wonderous item =/= Craft Wonderous item type.

The item type creation guidelines in the Dungeon Masters Guide are not rules for players. When a player wants to create a custom magic item they have to ask the DM, who will then do one of the following.

a) Say "piss off, potions already exist. The setting does not need this homebrew item type."

b) Say "ok, spend 6 months (IC) working on your rock of invisability (cl3) costing 500xp and 4000gp." The DM then consults the guidelines and says "they cost 300gp, and you can now then craft them and present them as your thesis piece to the mages guild, who will ask why you didn't just brew a potion. This will not help you create a rock of blur."

c) Say "ok, spend 6 months (IC) working on your rock of invisability (cl3) costing 500xp and 4000gp." The DM then consults the guidelines and says "they cost 600gp, and you can now then craft them and present them as your thesis piece to the mages guild, who will ask why you didn't just brew a potion. This will not help you create a rock of blur."

d) Say "ok, spend 6 months (IC) working on your rock of invisability (cl3) costing 500xp and 4000gp." The DM then says "your research was a dead end, rocks simply cannot be made to hold a casting of invisability. Would you like to try marbles next?" Your next encounter will be a troll.

e) Say "ok, you're the boss, would you like to build a flooding room trap in the middle of the desert to provide water while you are at it? The DMG lets you do that." While common this response is neither RAW nor RAI. It should read "the DMG lets me do that, because the setting bends to my will. mwahahaha".


Sorry, pet peeve.

[Segev]

Yes, the DM can always say "no, you can't do that," but he's also, by the same interpretation of the rules you're using, entitled to say, "You can't brew a potion because the rules are just guidelines and I don't want to let you do that."

You might argue that the DM is being unreasonable, then, whereas he's being reasonable in the case you laid out.

I would point out that, even if you're right, creating a class of distinct magic items which are not distinguishable from a subclass of another only to restrict that subclass of another from existing is pretty lame, particularly when the class of items is of limited utility and the only reason to restrict the difference is to enforce a reason for a feat that isn't worth taking even WITH the enforced restriction, because the magic item type just isn't very good.


Add in that there are examples of 1-shot Wondrous Items which could already be potions...except they're for spells of higher than third level...and you only reinforce how silly the arbitrary restriction is.

[Thurbane]

We recently had a big fight in a SIlenced zone, where we couldn't cast or use command words, so guzzling potions of Cure (we had picked up a lot as loot) became our only viable option.

[ace rooster]

Yes, the DM can always say "no, you can't do that," but he's also, by the same interpretation of the rules you're using, entitled to say, "You can't brew a potion because the rules are just guidelines and I don't want to let you do that."

You might argue that the DM is being unreasonable, then, whereas he's being reasonable in the case you laid out.

I would point out that, even if you're right, creating a class of distinct magic items which are not distinguishable from a subclass of another only to restrict that subclass of another from existing is pretty lame, particularly when the class of items is of limited utility and the only reason to restrict the difference is to enforce a reason for a feat that isn't worth taking even WITH the enforced restriction, because the magic item type just isn't very good.


Add in that there are examples of 1-shot Wondrous Items which could already be potions...except they're for spells of higher than third level...and you only reinforce how silly the arbitrary restriction is.

Potion types explicitly exist for all non personal spells they make sense for, as is the case for wands and scrolls. Disallowing a potion would be going against the rules. Disallowing a homebrew wonderous item is not going against the rules. There are guidelines for the DM as to how much a custom item type would cost to be consistent with the items they have produced, but these are explicitly pricing guidelines and nothing more (which incidently many items violate). There is no suggestion that fitting onto the table is enough for a homebrew item to be accepted into the setting. Asking the DM to rule in a whole new class of items that do exactly what these other items do, only better and without the feat is a stretch.

It would be like assuming that your homebrew autoloading heavy crossbow is ok, (it is like a repeating crossbow, only it is a martial weapon. It is ok because I took ranks in crossbowmaking so I can make it myself) and then doing the same thing for every other exotic weapon. The only difference is that there are no guidelines for how much it might cost. The reason it doesn't work is because the item type does not exist in the setting (note that the type can exist in the setting without there being any examples of the item). You can ask the DM to introduce an item type to the setting, but he is under no obligation to say yes. That the item in question is completely redundant does not help your case.

Folding potions into craft wonderous item could be a decent houserule, but it cannot be assumed. Assuming you can use CWI to emulate BP is assuming it.

Yes there are many examples of 1 shot wondrous items, and the specific spells they are are arbitrary. It works cause magic.

[Gavinfoxx]

What you want to do is get a rune (as in made with the feat Inscribe Rune from Player's Guide to Faerun) of Faith Healing (from Magic of Faerun) keyed to your god, and put it on your belt, in a box that is designed to be smashed / that you can put your hand through (like make it cloth covered or make it out of balsa wood or something) as a swift, immediate, or possibly free action, so it can heal you 8 hit points as an emergency.

[137beth]

What might make potions a lot better would be if you could create potions of personal range spells. Potions of Mirror Image could benefit fighters.

It wouldn't do anything for healing potions, though.

[Story]

We recently had a big fight in a SIlenced zone, where we couldn't cast or use command words, so guzzling potions of Cure (we had picked up a lot as loot) became our only viable option.

Glyph Seals would have worked. But ideally, you shouldn't need healing mid-battle at all. The point at which you start using up actions simply trying to stay alive is the point at which your odds of success rapidly decline.

[Gavinfoxx]

<snip>



Or you could just use Inscribe Rune or Attune Gem, or one of the other written ways of making scroll and potion alternatives?

[ace rooster]

Glyph seals explicitly state that the spell has to be harmful. It is up to the DM to make the decision. They saw that trick.

Inscribe rune and Attune gem are setting dependent (and 3.0 for attune gem). If forgotten realms is in then no problem, you spend a feat to get it, and it is not homebrew. Inscribe runes follow the rules for rune magic, which I don't know, so may have other limitations, but the main consideration is that it is not homebrew. Custom wonderous items are, even if they fit into the pricing guidelines.

My peeve is not people using feats to make other feats redundant. It is people assuming that CWI lets you design wonderous items (and that designing a new item is free in terms of time and resources), rather than crafting from pre existing designs. While the rules give black box specifications of many wonderous items, there are no rules for their internal function. Such rules would be required for a player to make OoC judgements of what is and is not possible with wonderous items, never mind assuming that their character can instantly produce a design that meets any specification that the player can come up with.

I see it as potions being like boxes, which do not need to be redesigned for every spell. Wonderous items (even 1 shot items) are fully functioning machines, and even slight specification changes will require a complete redesign, if they are possible to impliment at all.

[Story]

Glyph of Warding says that the spell should be harmful. Glyph Seal has no such restrictions.

And even if it did, there's a bit of a gray area in holding spells that are sometimes harmful and sometimes beneficial like Cure Moderate Wounds.