Why is Psionics considered good for blasting?

[aleucard]

I don't get it. None of the blasting abilities themselves strike me as being particularly powerful (though getting various Meta- feats for effectively 1 level less LA is nice) and the decoupling of damage dice from CL that it and the Spell Point system does forces the user to expend several times the resources that other spells cost just to get the equivalent power of a spell slot version. If ammo is a concern, then a dip into Runesmith or similar would provide all the ammo one could possibly need. So, what's the deal? Am I missing something? To be fair, I'm using the Mailman as my benchmark for being Great and consider Good only a single step down, but still.

EDIT: Clarified a bit.

[Svata]

The ability to do scaling damag based on how much you want to do from a first-level power depending on how much of your resources you want to expend and be able to choose what energy type at the time of manfesting is alays useful. ML boosting is fairly easy to do, to up your damage cap, and Overchannel/Wild Surge exist to allow it to go further.

[Psyren]

The benchmark for "good" is that it works, i.e. that you have a reasonable chance at killing an enemy before it can act in a CR-appropriate fight, or destroying a more or less brittle obstacle in a time-sensitive situation. Thus, psionic blasting is considered "good" because you can reliably point at things, and they fall down or break :smalltongue: Compare that to, say, incarnum blasting, or vestige blasting, which are not very good (in level-appropriate encounters.)

But what I think you meant to ask instead was "why is psionics considered better than magic for blasting?" the answer here is a bit more complex because it is subjective. Magic blasting, like everything else involving magic, has the highest optimization ceiling in the game - when you get up to Mailman levels or higher, magic will indeed beat psionics at blasting.

At lower optimization however, psionics is better because you can do things like change elements on the fly and raise DCs with minimal resource investment. Heighten and Energy Substitution are built into just about every power without needing special feats or metamagic mitigation. It's also easier to raise ML above your character level because you have access to almost all of the tricks that work for arcane and divine magic, plus special psionics-only things like Overchannel.

[aleucard]

The benchmark for "good" is that it works, i.e. that you have a reasonable chance at killing an enemy before it can act in a CR-appropriate fight, or destroying a more or less brittle obstacle in a time-sensitive situation. Thus, psionic blasting is considered "good" because you can reliably point at things, and they fall down or break :smalltongue: Compare that to, say, incarnum blasting, or vestige blasting, which are not very good (in level-appropriate encounters.)

But what I think you meant to ask instead was "why is psionics considered better than magic for blasting?" the answer here is a bit more complex because it is subjective. Magic blasting, like everything else involving magic, has the highest optimization ceiling in the game - when you get up to Mailman levels or higher, magic will indeed beat psionics at blasting.

At lower optimization however, psionics is better because you can do things like change elements on the fly and raise DCs with minimal resource investment. Heighten and Energy Substitution are built into just about every power without needing special feats or metamagic mitigation. It's also easier to raise ML above your character level because you have access to almost all of the tricks that work for arcane and divine magic, plus special psionics-only things like Overchannel.

That makes some more sense. There's still the issue of limited resources, though; how many spells can you find at low levels do full CL damage up to 20, or even 10 if they hit 2+ targets? You need to toss out PP like it's going out of style to be able to do max damage through the whole fight, whereas Slot casters only expend additional resources if they metamagic or something similar. The Slot caster would have an easier time of hitting their top limit, and expend less resources per fight to do so. While lasting all day is not nearly as good a benefit as it sounds, being able to last 4 encounters/day is. From what I can see, a Psionic blaster would have Hell being able to do that without burning if not the lion's share then the entirety of their PP pool.

EDIT: To clarify, let's take a standard Psion. 343 points from base class, and at least 40 points from an Intelligence score of 19 (if you have a figure on what the average Int of a lv. 20 Psion would be, I'll update). Assuming that you blast every turn you're in combat, and assuming that an average of 5 rounds is the length of a fight (Summons are expected to start being able to last the entire fight at this figure, so this is what I'm assuming the average fight lasts), you will run dry just before the end of the last fight. This is assuming that you do nothing else but this that day; you may very well end up running on empty during the decisive portion of that 4th fight, which is NOT fun. Slot blasters don't get this problem. If I'm not taking into account certain things in this, tell me.

[DeAnno]

I am not a Psionics specialist, so take everything below with a grain of salt:

There is a better action economy in Psionics than in Sorcery at high OP, especially with Linked Power Syncronicity (though Fission is a big deal too), though it is a little expensive in power points to blast with it and maintain that action economy, especially while managing your Psionic Focus for blasting as well as Linking Synch. The PP problem goes away with a good enough infinite PP engine though, and I think under the right circumstances you can basically "go off" into an infinite action loop. At the point you can do infinite actions with infinite PP though, you have probably crossed out of PO and into TO.

I would argue their metamagic setup is worse and damage seeds are about as good, except if you Defy the CP Energy Missile errata maybe. Needing to jump through Focus hoops to trigger off metamagic, and more hoops to trigger off more at once, and not having nearly as many reducers, is sort of annoying. Crystal Shard and Swarm of Crystals are good but you are sort of hurting for good Long range options, and have nothing in your toolbox like a Boreal Wind or an Acid Rain.

Psionics does have some other issues with "utility powers" a blaster tends to want though. I don't think they have a Disjunction substitute, and they can't pull off anything like a Chain Metamagic Greater Dispel to EMP a target's gear. CP Anticipatory Strike isn't as abusable as Celerity for acting out of order (if you are using RoD version though, then lol.) They don't have a Foresight+Celerity GoFirst combo (which is only debatably blocked by Mind Blank.) Their version of Moment of Prescience is lousy too.

So all and all Psions have better action economy, and better endurance, but to do it to its full extent they need to be cheesier. They are also bad at killing gear/buffstacks and have some issues with finding good long ranged damage seeds.

[Tohsaka Rin]

The thing is, with stuff like Psionic Shot (and Greater), you can get a lot more mileage out of your less-damaging powers, by simply expending your psionic focus.

1pp for a 1d6+4d6 Energy Ray or Crystal Shard means you can pretty much go all day, staying in the same ballpark as any party member using throwing weapons (within reason) or ranged sneak attacks.

Psionics are good for a number of things, but on-the-fly flexibility is chief among them.

[Forrestfire]

That makes some more sense. There's still the issue of limited resources, though; how many spells can you find at low levels do full CL damage up to 20, or even 10 if they hit 2+ targets? You need to toss out PP like it's going out of style to be able to do max damage through the whole fight, whereas Slot casters only expend additional resources if they metamagic or something similar. The Slot caster would have an easier time of hitting their top limit, and expend less resources per fight to do so. While lasting all day is not nearly as good a benefit as it sounds, being able to last 4 encounters/day is. From what I can see, a Psionic blaster would have Hell being able to do that without burning if not the lion's share then the entirety of their PP pool.

EDIT: To clarify, let's take a standard Psion. 343 points from base class, and at least 40 points from an Intelligence score of 19 (if you have a figure on what the average Int of a lv. 20 Psion would be, I'll update). Assuming that you blast every turn you're in combat, and assuming that an average of 5 rounds is the length of a fight (Summons are expected to start being able to last the entire fight at this figure, so this is what I'm assuming the average fight lasts), you will run dry just before the end of the last fight. This is assuming that you do nothing else but this that day; you may very well end up running on empty during the decisive portion of that 4th fight, which is NOT fun. Slot blasters don't get this problem. If I'm not taking into account certain things in this, tell me.

Five rounds is... generous. In my experience, fights start hitting 2-3 round durations around mid levels, and at level 20, rarely last longer than 2 rounds unless someone is actively lengthening it (often the DM, but still).

[Psyren]

EDIT: To clarify, let's take a standard Psion. 343 points from base class, and at least 40 points from an Intelligence score of 19 (if you have a figure on what the average Int of a lv. 20 Psion would be, I'll update). Assuming that you blast every turn you're in combat, and assuming that an average of 5 rounds is the length of a fight (Summons are expected to start being able to last the entire fight at this figure, so this is what I'm assuming the average fight lasts), you will run dry just before the end of the last fight. This is assuming that you do nothing else but this that day; you may very well end up running on empty during the decisive portion of that 4th fight, which is NOT fun. Slot blasters don't get this problem. If I'm not taking into account certain things in this, tell me.

19 is the absolute minimum actually. Average Int at level 20 is more along the lines of 26 (Starting score 15 from elite array, + 5 from levels, + 6 enhancement bonus item to mental stat) for a total PP bonus of 80, double your number. At the high end it is closer to 36 Int (Starting score 18, +2 from racial choice, +5 from levels, +6 from enhancement bonus to mental stat, +5 from Reality Revision/Wish/Manuals) for a total PP bonus of 130, more than triple your number.

Also, blasting is not actually the first resort of any primary caster worth their salt. Blasting is either used (a) once you have laid down the proper control/buffs/debuffs and are helping the mundanes to mop up the remaining resistance, or (b) against specialized foes like oozes and swarms that can more easily resist your regular tactics. The non-blasting spells also tend to be more efficient; for example, Entangling Ectoplasm can stop a Huge creature from charging and muck with its defenses (literally) for only 5 PP.

[aleucard]

Also, blasting is not actually the first resort of any primary caster worth their salt. Blasting is either used (a) once you have laid down the proper control/buffs/debuffs and are helping the mundanes to mop up the remaining resistance, or (b) against specialized foes like oozes and swarms that can more easily resist your regular tactics. The non-blasting spells also tend to be more efficient; for example, Entangling Ectoplasm can stop a Huge creature from charging and muck with its defenses (literally) for only 5 PP.


The thing is, with stuff like Psionic Shot (and Greater), you can get a lot more mileage out of your less-damaging powers, by simply expending your psionic focus.

1pp for a 1d6+4d6 Energy Ray or Crystal Shard means you can pretty much go all day, staying in the same ballpark as any party member using throwing weapons (within reason) or ranged sneak attacks.

Psionics are good for a number of things, but on-the-fly flexibility is chief among them.

I was more under the impression that a character designed for blasting will be using that as their primary method of combat, but to be fair getting competent isn't all that hard, and most of the methods of doing so are either cheap or are synergistic with other things.

So at standard optimization levels, Psionics is considered good for blasting not necessarily because of it being STRONGER than Slot casting, but because of 1) staying power when holding back (and range/versatility when being compared to Blasting Reserve feats), 2) easy access to all sorts of options any time your PP is north of single digits, and 3) impressive Nova capability. Am I missing something?

[Psyren]

I was more under the impression that a character designed for blasting will be using that as their primary method of combat, but to be fair getting competent isn't all that hard, and most of the methods of doing so are either cheap or are synergistic with other things.

That's just it - "designing a psion for blasting" involves very little beyond picking blasting powers, and they don't even need very many of those. The primary bases to cover are:

1) Melee attack (touch if possible)
2) Ranged attack (touch if possible)
3) Targets Fortitude (and objects, for undead)
4) Targets Will
5) Targets Reflex
6) No Save
7) Bypasses SR/PR
8) Area of Effect (for swarms and multiple weak foes.)
9) Deals Energy Damage (to exploit vulnerabilities etc.)
10) Deals Force Damage (For incorporeal/ethereal foes)
11) Effective against AMF
12) Effective against Globe

Psions can hit all of these, and there are several powers that pull double duty. For instance, Astral Construct fills roles 1, 6, and 7. Concussion Blast fills 6 and 10. Amethyst Burst from CPsi fills 6, 7, 10 and 11. Psionic Disintegrate beats 2, 3, and 12. Crystalstorm deals with 6,7,8 and 11. And so on and so forth.


So at standard optimization levels, Psionics is considered good for blasting not necessarily because of it being STRONGER than Slot casting, but because of 1) staying power when holding back (and range/versatility when being compared to Blasting Reserve feats), 2) easy access to all sorts of options any time your PP is north of single digits, and 3) impressive Nova capability. Am I missing something?

To be clear, it can very much be stronger than slot-based casting, or at the very least on par in different ways. If you optimize psionics far enough after all, you quickly get infinite PP and dozens of (if not infinite) standard actions per round to use with them. Furthermore, psions also have blasting advantages spellcasters don't, such as being able to blast targets without having line of effect (Burrowing Power), blast while dazed or stunned, blast in place of an AoO etc., rewind time in case a blast has unintended consequences ("that pillar was load-bearing??") etc., all on the fly.

[Bloodgruve]

Energy Ray (Cheese Ray). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyRay.htm)Ranged Touch, no save, if there is no psionic/magic transparency then SR is not an issue, scales with level and can choose whatever energy type you want whenever you cast it. And that's just a first level power. Throw on metapsionics and tricks that mess with the action economy and sharing incoming damage for more fun.

I love the Power Point system. Your 'highest level spells' are only limited by your power point pool so you can burn everything on top level powers if you can afford to do so.

Ardent has some great ACF's, good pool and some ability to stand in the midst of battle.

This has prolly been said already so apologies if its repeated.

Blood~

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I was more under the impression that a character designed for blasting will be using that as their primary method of combat, but to be fair getting competent isn't all that hard, and most of the methods of doing so are either cheap or are synergistic with other things.

So at standard optimization levels, Psionics is considered good for blasting not necessarily because of it being STRONGER than Slot casting, but because of 1) staying power when holding back (and range/versatility when being compared to Blasting Reserve feats), 2) easy access to all sorts of options any time your PP is north of single digits, and 3) impressive Nova capability. Am I missing something?

Depending on what your 'standard optimization levels' include, you might add the ability to recharge to your list. There are several means of doing so, none of which are particularly hard to pull off, which is more than you can say for slot based casters (as far as I'm aware).

And I would register this slight quibble with Psyren's assertion that Magic blasting ceilings higher than Psionic blasting - in either case, you're using nested-action-loop tricks (Sanctum Spell (Greater) Arcane Fusion for the one, Synchronicity action loop tricks for the other) but since the Psionicist can incorporate recharge into their action loop, they come out just barely ahead. That being said, once you're up to doing NI damage out of one spell-slot or power routine, it's not a particularly relevant distinction, but it is there.

[Ingus]

My view on psionics is not about the amount of blasting, but in the versatility of it.

As a wizard, you have to plan ahead if you want your twinned, maximized, empowered disintegration. And you may end the day without the perfect occasion to shot one.
As a sorcerer, you have to expend a full round action, with a slow numbers of picks. Moreover, you're usually more a machine gun than a heavy artillery.

As a Psion, you can have the exact amount of blasting required in any given moment, being able to keep power points till the BBEG and then burn half of them in a devastating attack.
This was more evident in 3.0 psionics, which had very strange and unusual mechanics, but remains in 3.5.

Moreover, as everyone had already pointed out, psionic powers are almost always highly customable, without using feats.
It may be partially an illusion, since burning up half of your power in a single action is less efficient than spamming powers in a more regular fashion, but it's still partially true

[deuxhero]

So what are the best blasting powers anyways?

[Psyren]

So what are the best blasting powers anyways?

Rather than list them all, the Psion Handbook in my sig covers the major ones, so I'll just point you there. Again, the criteria for "good blasting power" are the ones that cover as many of the bullet points I listed as possible, just as a good blasting spell would.

For example, the orb spells are considered good blasting spells because they hit several of the key areas: 2, 6, 7, 9/10, 11, and 12 (with a little heightening.)