Sha'ir power level... is it very high?

[Hazrond]

So I was looking at a prestige class when Psyren suggested this base class as an entry, I looked it up and I have to say, I'm intrigued. So how strong is it by playground standards?

[Doc_Maynot]

With the right amount of work it can be a very interesting pick. Spontaneous Caster (Dread Necro, probably) dip to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster makes the class run very smoothly.

[kardar233]

It's kind of frustrating to play for the first few levels because your spells only stick around so long which means you can't just prepare at the beginning of the day and then cast. On the other hand, it's great for utility as you can get the exact spell you need if you have a few rounds to wait.

[Hazrond]

With the right amount of work it can be a very interesting pick. Spontaneous Caster (Dread Necro, probably) dip to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster makes the class run very smoothly.

That may be... difficult, a build I have in mind can only dip one level and needs turn attempts but I can't figure a way to fit both spontaneous AND turn in that wouldn't be out of the concept (dread necro, cleric, and favored soul r out) do u know any ways to spend a feat or something to gain turn undead?

[Doc_Maynot]

That may be... difficult, a build I have in mind can only dip one level and needs turn attempts but I can't figure a way to fit both spontaneous AND turn in that wouldn't be out of the concept (dread necro, cleric, and favored soul r out) do u know any ways to spend a feat or something to gain turn undead?

Oh shucks. Dread Necro would have been perfect (One level dip Cha based arcane class AND gives attempts)
And you can get it in two with dragon magazine, two and some spells known that's a bit iffy if it qualifies with Dragon Magazine Compendium (Legal 3.5 book)

[Psyren]

At early levels it's a bit of a pain because your spells drain out of your head so quickly and retrieving them takes so long with a not-insignificant chance of failure. You also have few spells to choose from since you probably haven't witnessed an entire library's worth firsthand at level 1.

Around level 6 or so it basically turns into a wizard, except you don't need to play the scroll hunting game to learn new things.

In case it helps, I summarized the class mechanics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247148-sha-ir&p=13429667&viewfull=1#post13429667) a couple years back, and someone else wrote a handbook that's floating around somewhere.

[Serafina]

The Sha'ir handbook can be found here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=vjmt3sefjqd5vsmfq402vb77s7&topic=849).

Basically you are a Sorcerer who can be caught without any spells available (since you have to send our your familiar for them and they can expire, so you can't even leave a few emergency spells memorized) - but in exchange you are not limited by your spells known and get a few cleric-spells.

The niftiest thing about the class is that you cast both arcane and divine spells - spells fetched from a domain are always referred to as divine spells, there is no "cast as arcane spells" clause. Which opens up a few feats, prestige classes and so on.
The best way to take advantage of that is to go for the Dweomerkeeper prestige class for spontaneous casting, metamagic reduction and the completely broken supernatural spell ability (wish without xp-cost, no-SR spells etc.). Or be a Raptoran and go for Skypledged to basically gain access to all divine spells.

[Hazrond]

The Sha'ir handbook can be found here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=vjmt3sefjqd5vsmfq402vb77s7&topic=849).

Basically you are a Sorcerer who can be caught without any spells available (since you have to send our your familiar for them and they can expire, so you can't even leave a few emergency spells memorized) - but in exchange you are not limited by your spells known and get a few cleric-spells.

The niftiest thing about the class is that you cast both arcane and divine spells - spells fetched from a domain are always referred to as divine spells, there is no "cast as arcane spells" clause. Which opens up a few feats, prestige classes and so on.
The best way to take advantage of that is to go for the Dweomerkeeper prestige class for spontaneous casting, metamagic reduction and the completely broken supernatural spell ability (wish without xp-cost, no-SR spells etc.). Or be a Raptoran and go for Skypledged to basically gain access to all divine spells.

My plan was to pair it with warlock then go eldritch disciple / eldritch theurge all the way to 20 for 9ths and dark invocations :smallsmile:

[Doc_Maynot]

My plan was to pair it with warlock then go eldritch disciple / eldritch theurge all the way to 20 for 9ths and dark invocations :smallsmile:

Alternatively you could have Sha'ir qualify you for the arcane side of Mystic Theurge, Dweomerkeeper or similar, and just advance Warlock with the Arcane Progression.

[Hazrond]

Alternatively you could have Sha'ir qualify you for the arcane side of Mystic Theurge, Dweomerkeeper or similar, and just advance Warlock with the Arcane Progression.

can you use a arcane progressing prc to continue warlock? :smallconfused:

[Doc_Maynot]

can you use a arcane progressing prc to continue warlock? :smallconfused:

As long as you qualify, it progresses CL, Eldritch Blast, and Invocations if I recall correctly

[Hazrond]

As long as you qualify, it progresses CL, Eldritch Blast, and Invocations if I recall correctly

Really? thats cool :smallcool:, as a small aside does anybody know a way to get turn undead without class levels?

[Doc_Maynot]

Really? thats cool :smallcool:, as a small aside does anybody know a way to get turn undead without class levels?

Is dragon magazine and/or dragon magazine compendium on the table?
Wait, you are playing a Sha'ir, of course the later is.
You could take two feats, it's a bit debatable though with how it interacts with things.

[Hazrond]

Is dragon magazine and/or dragon magazine compendium on the table?

Well considering Sha'ir is from the compendium i should think so :smalltongue: as for dragon magazine i believe i need to show the DM the specific issue (but i am generally averse to dragon magazine things due to the fact i cant reliably find copies to read, and therefore am a bit in the dark about what im taking)

[Doc_Maynot]

Well considering Sha'ir is from the compendium i should think so :smalltongue: as for dragon magazine i believe i need to show the DM the specific issue (but i am generally averse to dragon magazine things due to the fact i cant reliably find copies to read, and therefore am a bit in the dark about what im taking)

Yeah, I corrected myself.
So with Dragon Magazines what you'd want is Dragon #305 to take God-Touched and Divine Channeler for explicit Turn Undead 1/day.
Dragon Compendium though, you could take Necromantic Bloodline and Kin Mastery for the ability to "turn or rebuke creatures of the same kind as your bloodline ancestor as a cleric of 1/2 your level in the arcane spellcasting class that granted you access to your base bloodline feat."

[Psyren]

Really? thats cool :smallcool:, as a small aside does anybody know a way to get turn undead without class levels?

Sacred Exorcist 1 gives you turn undead while continuing to advance either Sha'ir or Warlock (I would personally advance the former.) So you're not losing a caster level there.

[Hazrond]

You could take two feats, it's a bit debatable though with how it interacts with things.

What are they? the prerequisite is Special: Ability to turn or rebuke undead

[Hazrond]

Sacred Exorcist 1 gives you turn undead while continuing to advance either Sha'ir or Warlock (I would personally advance the former.) So you're not losing a caster level there.

yeah but the problem im running into there is the pretty strict entry requirements :smallfrown:

[Doc_Maynot]

What are they? the prerequisite is Special: Ability to turn or rebuke undead

Posted the feats up there if you didn't see.

[Hazrond]

Posted the feats up there if you didn't see.

is god-touched that article with all the various god bloodlines? like vecna-blooded and such? also the DM im making this char for has his own pantheon in the world, the only one from the basic D&D i believe would be farlahgan or however you spell the travel god

[Doc_Maynot]

is god-touched that article with all the various god bloodlines? like vecna-blooded and such? also the DM im making this char for has his own pantheon in the world, the only one from the basic D&D i believe would be farlahgan or however you spell the travel god

No, that's one of the Monster Manuals that has those templates.

[Psyren]

yeah but the problem im running into there is the pretty strict entry requirements :smallfrown:

Other than the fluff requirement, which you can get around with your backstory, getting in is easy. Good alignment - check; Dismissal - Sha'irs can cast that at level 9, check; Know Planes and Religion - Sha'irs get the former and Warlocks/ETs get the latter, check.

My build would be: Sha'ir 3/Warlock 1 (with Lesser Chasuble)/ET 6/Sacred Exorcist 1 (advance Sha'ir)/ED 5/ET +4.

This gets you spellcasting as a Sha'ir 18 (9th-level spells) and invocations as a Warlock 16 (1 Dark invocation.)

[Hazrond]

Other than the fluff requirement, which you can get around with your backstory.

Special: Adopting this prestige class requires the sanction of a church or order that ordains sacred exorcists. Only characters judged by their church to be exemplary in faith and devotion, strong of will and upright in morality, are made sacred exorcists. :smallconfused:

[AMFV]

Special: Adopting this prestige class requires the sanction of a church or order that ordains sacred exorcists. Only characters judged by their church to be exemplary in faith and devotion, strong of will and upright in morality, are made sacred exorcists. :smallconfused:

There are Good Fey, and they have Church representation. I'm not sure why being either a Warlock or a Sha'ir would mean that you can't be exemplary in a CG Church. I mean they're all about not judging somebody just because of where they come from (Warlock), and the Sha'ir really isn't evil at all, closer to pulling neutral.

[Hazrond]

There are Good Fey, and they have Church representation. I'm not sure why being either a Warlock or a Sha'ir would mean that you can't be exemplary in a CG Church. I mean they're all about not judging somebody just because of where they come from (Warlock), and the Sha'ir really isn't evil at all, closer to pulling neutral.

with all this work im really just considering losing a caster level and taking a level of Dread Necro :smallsigh:

[AMFV]

with all this work im really just considering losing a caster level and taking a level of Dread Necro :smallsigh:

They're a CG Church, work for them is mostly parties and revelry.

[Hazrond]

They're a CG Church, work for them is mostly parties and revelry.

im rather bad at playing decidedly good characters, i mess up too much for it to stick long and they usually become neutral with a good bent before its all said and done (whoever said that explanation about good and evil being small puddles on each side of the neutral pool they werent kidding) :smallfrown:

[Psyren]

Special: Adopting this prestige class requires the sanction of a church or order that ordains sacred exorcists. Only characters judged by their church to be exemplary in faith and devotion, strong of will and upright in morality, are made sacred exorcists. :smallconfused:

Yeah, backstory, like I said. An easy way for a warlock to meet this requirement is to revere the Court of Stars from BoED in Arvandor, which count CG Warlocks among their members and have ties to Eladrin and Fey.

Alternatively if it's that big a deal, simply use the adaptation instead.

As written, the prestige class mandates the sanction of a church or order, and it indicates that sacred exorcists are loners. You could reverse either of those elements; sacred exorcists could function independently of a larger organization (or even be castoffs from the larger church).

[Hazrond]

Yeah, backstory, like I said. An easy way for a warlock to meet this requirement is to revere the Court of Stars from BoED in Arvandor, which count CG Warlocks among their members and have ties to Eladrin and Fey.

Alternatively if it's that big a deal, simply use the adaptation instead.

As written, the prestige class mandates the sanction of a church or order, and it indicates that sacred exorcists are loners. You could reverse either of those elements; sacred exorcists could function independently of a larger organization (or even be castoffs from the larger church).

i would love to use the adaptations of PRCs, im just preparing in case the DM vetos that :smallamused: