Cleric idea need help WARNING SENSITIVE TOPICS AHEAD

[keeper2161]

So by way of link clicking I discovered the demon Lynkhab demon patron of depression, self-destruction, and suicide she is a succubus. I discovered her because I looked up Pazuzu and through quite a long process of links got to her. I was thinking that she would make a nice story for a character. While she is a demon it's doesn't say that she is all that evil but there is very little printed about her. I mean very little. Basically side notes and that's it. The story I thought up was one of two. Either story the character had a tragic upbringing involving the death and/or suicide of one or more family members. The actually upbringing is not the really part I am worried about. It's the character development that I am having trouble with. So both stories have him ending up at a some temple or church. While reading though their libraries found mention of Lynkhab. Curiosity peaked he search for more mention of her. Now this is where the stories diverge. One story says that as he search for mention of her he fell in love with her. The other story says that he becomes incredibly sympathetic to her plight and wish to help her achieve her goal of godhood. I have a lot of questions to this.

What would be the characters alignment CG CN N NG? I can not decide if it would be good or neutral. She is a demon but she is a depressed demon. I didn't even know demons could get depressed. Does this depression make her special ie. helping her achieve godhood wouldn't be an evil act?

It says in the wiki of her that she spends most of her time in search of someone to end her misery whether that is killing her or helping her I'm not sure but I am leaning on her hoping someone kills her. It says she can not express her own desires or her own concepts but she can help others express their desires. So if someone's desire was to help her achieve her desires would that circumvent the she can not express her own desires? Would that make her good?

I have a lot more questions but I don't want too long of post so I will leave it as this for now and add later. This is a link to the wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynkhab

[BWR]

When in doubt, assume that fiends are evil. EVIL! Unless she is explicitly stated to be good, she's evil. Note her first appearance, the Planescape supplement "Faces of Evil". If she were good she wouldn't hang around the Abyss as an Abyssal Lord.
Being a patron of something doesn't mean you suffer the same condition. Chances are Lynkhab revels in the pain and despair and death of her portfolio. She inflicts these torments on others where possible and enjoys the misery that follows.

At the very best she might have conned some poor good-aligned sod into believing she was good and is slowly corrupting him. More likely, any priest of hers is Neutral or Chaotic Evil.

[keeper2161]

But being depressed for hundreds if not thousand of year might give you a different outlook on life. Plus even if she is still evil she would have to relay on the character heavily. Over time he might change her. More likely she would change him but either way it would make a good back story.

EDIT: It does say that she walks around waiting for someone to end her misery.

EDIT: It also says that she is depressed. And depression changes you. With her being a demon lord thats depressed for a very long time would probably change her.

[Red Fel]

But being depressed for hundreds if not thousand of year might give you a different outlook on life. Plus even if she is still evil she would have to relay on the character heavily. Over time he might change her. More likely she would change him but either way it would make a good back story.

EDIT: It does say that she walks around waiting for someone to end her misery.

EDIT: It also says that she is depressed. And depression changes you. With her being a demon lord thats depressed for a very long time would probably change her.

Being depressed doesn't make a person more or less evil. That's the short version.

BWR is correct. As a rule, demons - particularly powerful ones - are capital-E Evil.

There is a school of thought that basically seems to embrace the idea that loading enough angst onto a character, having them suffer enough emotionally, is sufficient to make them moral, or heroic, or what-have-you. It doesn't do that. It makes them a protagonist. And a demon protagonist is still a demon.

Now, the books have made it quite clear that dealing with Infernals, even for the noblest of reasons, is generally an Evil act. And this Cleric isn't trying to redeem her, to make her less Evil or what-have-you. He's trying to make her happy. And to do that, he wants to aid her in apotheosis.

As a rule, turning a powerful demon into a god is a bad thing, no matter your motivations. At very best, this character is Neutral; more likely, he is Evil. Quite likely, this character is deranged, which lends itself towards Chaotic or Neutral on the C-L spectrum. So we're likely dealing with CN, CE, or NE here.

[Elderand]

There is a school of thought that basically seems to embrace the idea that loading enough angst onto a character, having them suffer enough emotionally, is sufficient to make them moral, or heroic, or what-have-you. It doesn't do that. It makes them a protagonist.

No it doesn't, it just make them someone who suffer emotionaly. Plenty of side character suffer the same.

Being a protagonist has **** all to do with how much angst you suffer from and everything to do with a writer deciding you're the protagonist.

[facelessminion]

But being depressed for hundreds if not thousand of year might give you a different outlook on life. Plus even if she is still evil she would have to relay on the character heavily. Over time he might change her. More likely she would change him but either way it would make a good back story.

If depression changed her enough to change her from her evil alignment, she would not be an abyssal lord. Depression does not in any way, shape, or form mean you are necessarily good. She is the abyssal lord of depression and suicides; she is not suffering in silence from her depression, she is wanting to inflict it on everyone else until someone kills her.

[Red Fel]

No it doesn't, it just make them someone who suffer emotionaly. Plenty of side character suffer the same.

Being a protagonist has **** all to do with how much angst you suffer from and everything to do with a writer deciding you're the protagonist.

I was being facetious. I was jokingly referring to the fact that it seems that every protagonist seems designed to suffer, and deliberately conflating cause with effect (e.g. "you are the protagonist, therefore everybody you love dies," versus "everyone you loved is dead, therefore you must be a protagonist.")

Clearly, I need to use more blue text.

[Elderand]

Clearly, I need to use more blue text.

Doesn't everyone ? :P

[keeper2161]

So no way for it to work out for the greater good or even just neutral? You know a demon turned god that no longer cares about the politics of the Abyss maybe she keeps her level of the abyss and just avoids all the demons or just moves into her own plane. She would have a soft spot for the depressed and souls that committed suicide. I mean using D&D logic I don't think that would be too far fetched idea would it?

EDIT: Also has anyone ever heard of a depressed demon? After spending all those years probably alone and severely depressed seeing the one way for her to escape her torment she might go a bit soft demon wise at least.

[facelessminion]

She would have a soft spot for the depressed and souls that committed suicide.

How many people with clinical depression have you dealt with, before?

I see plenty in my line of work - I have to wrangle them at a local trauma center, keeping people on Suicide Watch safe. Some of them are certainly sympathetic, and worthy of sympathy. And some are crushed, twisted things that would happily bring plenty of other people along for the ride as they end themselves.

A demon lord? Yeah, they're going to be the latter variety.

[keeper2161]

I guess it would be up to the dm. Also I have dealt with depression before. My brother's arms being nothing but a mass of scar tissues and a friend from high school nearly killing himself a couple times. Both are alive and well and I would say that most people that live past it or live in it would agree that if they saw a chance to escape they would take it in heart beat.

EDIT: So it's not too far an idea that even a demon lord might consider going good or even neutral to escape it.

[facelessminion]

I guess it would be up to the dm. Also I have dealt with depression before. My brother's arms being nothing but a mass of scar tissues and a friend from high school nearly killing himself a couple times. Both are alive and well and I would say that most people that live past it or live in it would agree that if they saw a chance to escape they would take it in heart beat.

I'm not at all disputing that! A lot of the people I have worked with are already well on their way to recovery and healing by the time that I deal with them. I have several people very dear to my heart that have struggled against it and won.

You need to remember, though, that when it comes to D&D terms your brother, your friend, and everyone that you hold close are all at the very least neutral or nominally good-aligned critters. And thus, even through their suicide attempts and depression, they maintain a nominally neutral or good alignment, just one that is tainted by loss.

There are most definitely others, ones where there is no realistic chance, ones that would just as happily make sure everyone else suffers as they suffer. And an arch-fiend? Pretty much the epitome of that. Giving an arch-fiend even more power? Unquestionably an evil act.

I say this, incidentally, as someone that loves the heck out of often-corny stories of demons being redeemed. I could definitely see redeeming a more normal demon as well within a PC's power - curbing the bloodlust of a Marilith, for example. Working on a storyline with such a fiend, lesser but still powerful enough to be interesting, could work out quite well. I just don't see it happening with this particular critter. All I see is a lot of tragedy at the end of that road.

[Larkas]

she is not suffering in silence from her depression, she is wanting to inflict it on everyone else until someone kills her.

Quoted for truth. As a Demon Lord (Lady?), she probably inflicts the same suffering she's afflicted with to anyone she can touch, if nothing else to distract her from her own pain. She is capital E Evil, and if she inspires sympathy on anyone, she probably has ulterior motives. She's a succubus! She was born to deceive! If she seeks godhood, it's probably because she believes that will make everything better. That cleric character is very likely to sacrifice himself, or even provoke some kind of mass suicide, to try and make her ascend.* As a goddess, her motto is probably "Death will make everything better". The way I see it, she's CE, alright, and insidiously so.

* Either that, or find a way to stop her from reforming when slain and just kill her as an act of mercy.

[keeper2161]

First tragedies make the best stories and from what I understand she is a shadow of her normal self. She has her own level but since no one has taken it from her (with the fact that she spends most of her time wondering around waiting for someone to end her misery) we can assume that she is considered so weak that she is not worth the effort to even take the level from her. Stronger then the average succubus but the weakest demon to hold a level.

EDIT: Former self

[facelessminion]

First tragedies make the best stories and from what I understand she is a shadow of her normal self. She has her own level but since no one has taken it from her (with the fact that she spends most of her time wondering around waiting for someone to end her misery) we can assume that she is considered so weak that she is not worth the effort to even take the level from her. Stronger then the average succubus but the weakest demon to hold a level.

EDIT: Former self


I tend to dispute the idea that tragedy automatically makes a story good, but either way I wasn't referring to a minor one involving her - more one where, when given deific power, she causes a tragedy for the world. Do remember that weakest archfiend still sets a pretty damn high bar. Any higher-tier demons with ambition would be trying to gobble up that layer for themselves, and end up, apparently, unsuccessful.

As far as what you're suggesting, though? If you're set on the idea of redeeming her, I would say you need to try another route for it. Helping her Ascend would be making a big evil into a far bigger evil, and wouldn't really go over well. Outright redeeming, without trying to grand her ascension? It would be horrifically difficult, painstaking, and quite possibly cause a far greater, more personal tragedy for your character - but really, that kind of thing goes hand in hand with high to epic level Dungeons and Dragons.

[keeper2161]

There was a thread I read once that built on the idea that succubuss are not naturally evil but turned evil by there environment and what is learned can be unlearned. With her relaying on the character to free her from her situation that would make things a lot easier. How would you go about redeeming her or at least not making her too evil. One ending to the story is that the character becomes a god then he splits his godhood with her binding them together. Which would be much easier to do and might solve some things.

EDIT: I found the thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?331541-Raising-a-Succubus

[Deadline]

EDIT: So it's not too far an idea that even a demon lord might consider going good or even neutral to escape it.

Except that they are literally made of evil, and live in a place that is also made from the stuff of evil.

I'm not a big fan of the whole "tortured until they turn good" concept, it's about as asinine as the entire Book of Exalted deeds (which, by the way, states that allowing an evil outsider to live is an evil act). But if it's something you and your DM are all kinds of set to try, give it a shot. There are, as far as I'm aware, two Succubi who've turned from Evil. The printed succubus paladin on the wizards website (I don't recall her reason for turning), and the LN one from Planescape Torment, Fall-From-Grace (she's a chaste Succubus who runs a brothel for slaking intellectual lusts).

But for a demon lord to turn good? That's a stretch. I see no reason why your character couldn't try, but claiming that he'd wind up as anything other than evil in alignment eventually might be difficult (road to hell being paved with good intentions and all that). But again, chat with your DM and see what they think.

[AMFV]

Except that they are literally made of evil, and live in a place that is also made from the stuff of evil.

I'm not a big fan of the whole "tortured until they turn good" concept, it's about as asinine as the entire Book of Exalted deeds (which, by the way, states that allowing an evil outsider to live is an evil act). But if it's something you and your DM are all kinds of set to try, give it a shot. There are, as far as I'm aware, two Succubi who've turned from Evil. The printed succubus paladin on the wizards website (I don't recall her reason for turning), and the LN one from Planescape Torment, Fall-From-Grace (she's a chaste Succubus who runs a brothel for slaking intellectual lusts).

Not to be pedantic but that's the Book of Vile Deeds, and it says it in a section which is explicitly stated not be hard rules.



But for a demon lord to turn good? That's a stretch. I see no reason why your character couldn't try, but claiming that he'd wind up as anything other than evil in alignment eventually might be difficult (road to hell being paved with good intentions and all that). But again, chat with your DM and see what they think.

I don't think a Demon Lord could turn Good, but then again Asmodus turned evil, so huge changes of the powerful are possible, although it may not be as possible as you'd like. Ascension isn't the right way to go about it.

Although it's of note that the character concept is very good as far as tragedy goes. A man turned to evil because he feels so sorry for a Demon Lord that he wants to help her ascend assuming that it'll cure her madness. He starts the terrible dark rituals of ascension and seeks them out. And it's all caused by his foolish pride. Very Greek Tragedy.

[keeper2161]

I don't deny that it would be a really tough character to play but it would be really fun. It would be serious and gritty. Plus there might be a chance for it too work. I always like playing characters like that. Ones that can be used later as npcs and depending on whether he succeeded or not you could play it both ways.

EDIT: How would you play it though from the player's point of view and the dm's.

[facelessminion]

Well, I suppose that all fiends are turned evil by their environment, but only in the sense that corrupted souls become little oozing bundles of idiocy, fear, and intense demonic malice before they become stronger creatures. I believe you may be thinking of the erinyes, a succubutt-like creature that in several versions of the fluff is originally descended from fallen angels.

A large portion of this potential redemption quest would, I suppose, hinge on whether she really wanted to be redeemed or not. (I've already shared my personal view there enough, I think.) If they do truly desire redemption, they would likely need to be knocked -down- in power before it could properly work... Items like the Helm of Opposite Alignment and the one "I'm totally not Mindrape" spell from Book of Exalted Deeds become a lot less morally ambiguous when the creature actually desires change.

And, if you do somehow gain divine ranks, raw deific power can likely help sort things out as well. One of the salient divine abilities, if memory serves, allows you to designate someone as a harbinger of your power beyond just an avatar, and they gain a decent bit divine-rank wise and become a champion of your cause.

[AMFV]

I don't deny that it would be a really tough character to play but it would be really fun. It would be serious and gritty. Plus there might be a chance for it too work. I always like playing characters like that. Ones that can be used later as npcs and depending on whether he succeeded or not you could play it both ways.

Well I think the character turning evil is almost guaranteed. There are a lot of sacrifices involved in ascension. The character would certainly be tragic. And his gradual corruption could be fun to play, but you'd have to make sure the DM knows you're playing a character who is going to turn evil.

[keeper2161]

I would actually base it around the taint rules but play it simply as a score counter. It would represent influence. Have it so that both of them are telepathically linked or have it where it's like a volunteer possession where her avatar is in his head guiding him. Her influence would seep into him and his influence would seep into her. Something like (if anyone know stars old republic) Reven and the sith emperor but on a bigger scale. Each good descision the character made she would have to roll a will to avoide gaining one point of influence. She could roll something (diplomacy, Cha?) to try to convince him to not do the good thing or to do something evil.

[AMFV]

I would actually base it around the taint rules but play it simply as a score counter. It would represent influence. Have it so that both of them are telepathically linked or have it where it's like a volunteer possession where her avatar is in his head guiding him. Her influence would seep into him and his influence would seep into her. Something like (if anyone know stars old republic) Reven and the sith emperor but on a bigger scale. Each good descision the character made she would have to roll a will to avoide gaining one point of influence. She could roll something (diplomacy, Cha?) to try to convince him to not do the good thing or to do something evil.

Well she wouldn't have to, he's trying to bring about the ascension of an Evil God, that involves numerous acts of abhorrent evil, which of course he'd rationalize. But you can't do that or sacrifice that many others without the character starting to fall to evil. He might still rationalize his intentions, but when he's building sacrificial alters to fuel the ascension it'll be more to fool himself than anybody else.

[keeper2161]

There are more then one way to become a god. Say gaining enough power to slay a evil god and use their divine spark to become a god. Using the time in between the start and the god slaying to try to change her.

EDIT: You might be able to convince a neutral god to sponsor you once you change her from evil (this is dependent on you actually changing her). It would make for a very nice character.

[AMFV]

There are more then one way to become a god. Say gaining enough power to slay a evil god and use their divine spark to become a god. Using the time in between the start and the god slaying to try to change her.

Yes, but gaining that much power typically involves quite a bit of evil actions. At least in D&D the way to fast power is usually evil.

[keeper2161]

Not every powerful being is evil. You can do good things and still be just as powerful.

[AMFV]

Not every powerful being is evil. You can do good things and still be just as powerful.

Yes, but in literature and D&D taking shortcuts to become instantly powerful typically is evil. And you are trying to advance the power of an evil being explicitly with the intention of saving her, which as others have pointed out is probably misguided, your character would be misguided and gradually fall to more and more depraved things once he started to feel they were necessary. As I said at one point he's going to be completely evil and have not even realized he was going that way, that's how tragedies work. You wanted a literary tragedy, that would be the elements of it.

[Deadline]

Not to be pedantic but that's the Book of Vile Deeds, and it says it in a section which is explicitly stated not be hard rules.

*shrug* They are both equally terrible books. According to the Book of Exalted Deeds, Grunthar the Eater of Babies can be forced to repent his ways and become a paragon of Good simply by being tied up and having the diplomatic paladin preach at him for a few days.


There are more then one way to become a god. Say gaining enough power to slay a evil god and use their divine spark to become a god. Using the time in between the start and the god slaying to try to change her.

This supports what AMFV was saying. Your character being willing to sacrifice another sentient being (even and evil god) for her is not exactly a good thing.

I'll echo what was said earlier, that path to redemption for her will probably involve depowering her (giving up her evil ways, her evil powers, and her evil domain), and an honest desire on her part to change. Otherwise, you are looking at more of a tragic story where your cleric truly believes "I can change her!", and it plays out they same way that sentiment always plays out in the real world (when the subject doesn't want to change).

[keeper2161]

True but I also want the chance to have it all work out in the end. As in either way its a great story. So a CG or NG cleric of some idea (rather then a god) falls in love with this archfiend and believes that the only way she can be happy again is to turn to the light. She would simply see it way to escape and a chance to obtain godhood in one move but there is a chance the clerics influence might change her. It would take a very long time for her to change. Probably wouldn't take that long to corrupt the cleric. It would be a against all odds kind of story if he turned her. If she turned him well he would make a nice BBEG for the next campaign.

[AMFV]

True but I also want the chance to have it all work out in the end. As in either way its a great story. So a CG or NG cleric of some idea (rather then a god) falls in love with this archfiend and believes that the only way she can be happy again is to turn to the light. She would simply see it way to escape and a chance to obtain godhood in one move but there is a chance the clerics influence might change her. It would take a very long time for her to change. Probably wouldn't take that long to corrupt the cleric. It would be a against all odds kind of story if he turned her. If she turned him well he would make a nice BBEG for the next campaign.

The problem is that it's not against all odds. The minute he says "I'm going to help you ascend," he's pretty much done, he's gong to have to make moral compromise after moral compromise, and he's already made the biggest one.

[keeper2161]

First I only see one and that is killing a god for there power. The offering his help isn't evil, he means to redeem her. The path to god hood is not littered moral compromises. By that logic there are only evil gods. So its redeem then ascend.

[Larkas]

And then the PC gains the award for "Naive Mortal of the Year". Seriously, just as any succubus, this one wants to use the character. Of course he can redeem her, this is a tabletop RPG and everything can be done in it, but, literarily speaking, the plot is pretty clear.

[Red Fel]

The problem is that it's not against all odds. The minute he says "I'm going to help you ascend," he's pretty much done, he's gong to have to make moral compromise after moral compromise, and he's already made the biggest one.

Pretty much this.

The bottom line is that it takes more than serious depression and the actions of a kind (if deluded) Cleric to turn a Demon Lord to Good. A lot more. For one thing, the desire to be Good must come from within.

Take the (often debated) case of the Succubus Paladin, who became Good out of love (true love! a big deal!). She became Good because it was the only way she could be with the one she loved. Being Good goes against her being fundamentally, but she shoulders that constant burden because it matters to her.

In the absence of spells like Sanctify the Wicked, an Evil being - particularly fundamentally Evil being, like a Demon - must be willing and able to make the effort of its own volition. Despite what we see in fairy tales, a kind hand and a warm smile won't suddenly cause an entity formed from the energies of an inherently CE plane to sprout a conscience and fully-functional morality. It doesn't work that way.

So start from there. This Demon Lord is going to have to want to be Good. And nothing you have said suggests that she does. Frankly, nothing you have said even suggests she wants godhood. That's all your Cleric talking. He just wants to give her a means to end her suffering. He wants to be her friend. He wants to show compassion. He wants to slaughter innocents and gods and end all things in order to do what he thinks will make her feel better.

None of this has any impact on her desire or ability to become Good.

By contrast, the Cleric's conduct is pretty explicitly Evil. Going down this road, even with the best of intentions, is a pretty quick trip to the dark side.

Has he ever actually asked this Demon if she wants to be Good? Does he even care? From your description, he's not trying to redeem her from Evil; he's trying to save her from suffering. These are two completely different things. And as I mentioned, nowhere have you indicated that his actions or feelings are reciprocated - he can try to en-Gooden her all he likes, but unless she takes up action as well, it's a futile effort. (Again, absent spells like Sanctify the Wicked.)

You simply haven't given any reason why she would be non-Evil, or why his actions (sacrifices, godslaying, etc.) would be anything but Evil.

[keeper2161]

I maintain that she is a special case. Her living probably alone for centuries severely depressed and very weakened with no way to gain an more power without anyone's help, she would be more opened then other demons for the chance to turn her. Plus she might fall for him, (there is very little written about her so this is assumption based on the fact that she holds a level yet spends most of her time wondering around hoping someone kills her) because he comes in giving her a way for her to escape her torment. Also she is more then the average succubus so her goals are different. Quote from the wiki written about her.

"As Lady of Desire and Depression, Lady Lynkhab is said to represent the concept of desire and the power to express it, but only other people's desires. Her depression stems from the fact that she cannot express or act upon her own concepts."

So my reasoning is that she would be willing to make compromises that other demons wouldn't even consider. Simply because other wise she would be rotting in her level waiting for something to kill her.

EDIT: When I said that his good actions affected her I was simply offering a way mechanically to affect her as an idea of how to make this work mechanically.

[Bluydee]

Actually, Lynkhab wants to be a god, however she is also the lady of regret and you know that is what the cleric is going to be doing at the end of this.

[Red Fel]

I maintain that she is a special case. Her living probably alone for centuries severely depressed and very weakened with no way to gain an more power without anyone's help, she would be more opened then other demons for the chance to turn her. Plus she might fall for him, (there is very little written about her so this is assumption based on the fact that she holds a level yet spends most of her time wondering around hoping someone kills her) because he comes in giving her a way for her to escape her torment. Also she is more then the average succubus so her goals are different. Quote from the wiki written about her.

"As Lady of Desire and Depression, Lady Lynkhab is said to represent the concept of desire and the power to express it, but only other people's desires. Her depression stems from the fact that she cannot express or act upon her own concepts."

So my reasoning is that she would be willing to make compromises that other demons wouldn't even consider. Simply because other wise she would be rotting in her level waiting for something to kill her.

EDIT: When I said that his good actions affected her I was simply offering a way mechanically to affect her as an idea of how to make this work mechanically.

The only way to "make this work mechanically" is for her to, for unselfish reasons, want to become Good. Not because it will ease her pain, not because she wants power or compromise or because it will make her feel better, but because it will be better for somebody else.

What you are describing is a person willing to do anything it takes to end her own suffering, in whatever manner that might be. That's not Good. That's not even a desire to be Good. That's almost the textbook definition of Evil - the "anything it takes" mentality is generally quite popular amongst the morally-impaired.

You seem quite determined to find a way to redeem this character. If you're that desperate, I'll give you an option.

This Cleric falls for her. Hard. But being a Demon Lord, she doesn't reciprocate; she just sees a way out of her suffering. So she uses him, corrupts him, twists him in hopes that he will succeed.

He fails, and falls. His soul goes into a deep, dark place.

And suddenly, she feels a pain worse than what she's been feeling. It's not that feeling of loneliness, it's not that feeling of emptiness, listlessness, or despair with which she's become familiar. It's loss and responsibility. She feels guilt - real, genuine guilt and remorse - for having taken a Good person, who wanted nothing more than to help her, and having toyed with, twisted, and manipulated him into an eternity of torment.

And for the first time in eons, she wants something other than an end to her own pain. She wants a way to rescue him from his.

That, my friend, is how you take an Evil being and turn them on the path to Good. That's classic tragedy. That's poetry. That's beautiful. And it's yours, free of charge.

[Larkas]

That, my friend, is how you take an Evil being and turn them on the path to Good. That's classic tragedy. That's poetry. That's beautiful. And it's yours, free of charge.

That is probably the best thing I read all day. Thank you, good sir! :smallsmile:

[keeper2161]

That is perfect! That would be so fun to play. Thank you. And I wanted there to be more then one option then automatic evil because there would be. Maybe even have the character sacrifice himself and/or get imprisoned or get mauled and horribly scarred and missing some limbs because he tried to save her from something that would kill her. Again thank you. You have given me the good ending, the bad ending isn't that hard to imagine. And I concede that what will most likely happen is he gets corrupt and becomes an evil slave but you never know it's D&D weirder things have happened.

[Red Fel]

Hey, I'm a villain. We're suckers for a good redemption arc.

Just don't make it easy. Redemption is a gradual path for most mortals; for Evil Outsiders, it's grueling and constant struggle. For a Demon Lord, particularly one with a few eternities of torment under the belt, it's virtually inconceivable.

But true love, man, that makes folks to crazy stuff. Am I right?

[keeper2161]

lol true. My dm will probably let me play this, he wants to play more serious adventure and this guy is very serious. Plus has a very nice story to boot. Again I thank everyone for their contributes. I really love this forum so very much.:smile:

[Ingus]

Maybe Iv'e found this thread a bit too late, but I have an idea I want to share with you all.

In Linkhab description I read "Lynkhab has assumed many different forms throughout her existence, all supposedly based on the desires of other beings. Her current form is that of a voluptuous red-haired female elf."

Now, when in contact with your cleric, she may be a repentant voluptuous red-haired female elf.
Succubi are creature of evil and lust, after all and maybe she can find it fun - or at least relieving - to act as a Damsel in distress (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakTheCutie) being a very bad girl (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CuteIsEvil).
Moreover, Lynkhab appears to me like a broke doll - maybe cursed by Malkanthet? that kind of curse you can't rid of even dying? interesting backstory...

You may, so, justify your character affection because he, maybe, have found a story in which Lynkhab is just a plan mortal transformed into a succubus by evil beings, an innocent mortal, maybe, who claim that the only thing to get rid of the curse is become a god.
Or a penitent one, like your character would like to view her (which is exactly the point).

And... the story goes on as like as your DM wants.
In my game, you may have (or have not, but I wouldn't tell you) a very slight chance to redeem her and a very solid one to be dragged down with her - in both cases, a great chance to have those gray and gray scenarios post modern storytelling is full of.

Hope it works for you ;-)

[Phelix-Mu]

Alright, skipped a bunch of stuff. Read almost nothing about Lynkhab, so ignore me if this is off-base.

She's probably evil. Evil can get depressed. In fact, evil is kind of depressing. Guess what thinking you are the center of everything and that anything you want you should get gets you? Welcome to Self-Absorbed Land. And being self-absorbed can be depressing if you constantly see your flaws or think the universe is persecuting you for no reason, you can't win, blah blah. Or maybe you do think you are great, but never quite good enough (daddy never told you he loved you), and so constantly aspiring to some totally unrealistic level of perfection, and thus your own worst enemy (nothing ever meets your standard, even if it succeeds, and so everything is a failure, and failure is depressing). Add in the chaos from the Abyss, and we can toss any logical concerns behind Lynkhab's state out the window. Why is she miserable? Because of all these mice, and days that end in the letter "y," and hats that never fit quite right.

In fact, being evil probably isn't the reason for her misery at all, so it is likely the last thing she would think to change. If she is a paragon of something, she exhibits that thing at a level that defies normal understanding. Why is she miserable? Because she can't be any other way. If she was some other way, she wouldn't be her. And change is something that outsiders are famously bad at, since they typically are entrapped in the concepts that define the plane/god that spawned them. Notice that she wants to die, but manages not to for untold millennia; unless it's really just hard for her to die, this usually isn't that hard a thing to arrange in the Abyss, where everything imaginable is happening somewhere, all of the time.

The truth is that human psychology is incredibly complex. Add in magic, outsiders, the planes, immortality, and a totally bizarre mishmash of moral/ethical views underlying the alignment system, and pretty much anything is possible.

EDIT: I'd vote that "yes, redemption is possible" as it's a basic tenant of being good that evil is never unconquerable, but I'd also be of the mind that you'd have better odds hoping to win five different lotteries, on the same night, picking the same number, with that number being "NYAAAHN." Possible, but barring something really creative, not really suitable as backstory (since the real awesome should be part of the campaign, not the prequel). Also, this is really involved, so maybe hijacking the plot a bit. I mean, the rest of the characters might not give two bent pennies about Lynkhab, but one character is obsessed with her. Sounds like courting dysfunction.

[JusticeZero]

Question you need to answer is this..
How is it that that sphere of influence ended up in the hands of that entity? Did another God assign it to her? Did she grab it in a coup? It may well be that she isn't very good at their job. Alternatively, if you are more of a physicalist, she might have ended up in the alignment she's in because of the effects of dealing with her sphere.

[keeper2161]

She wants to die but I think that no one kills her because (this is simply my opinion) she is strong enough that in a fight might prove challenging her being an archfiend. No one does because she would be like a fly that just sits there and stares at you. Not bothersome just there, doing nothing. Another reason why no one has killed her yet (and this makes more sense) is because she wants to die but killing her would be nice and most demons aren't nice. They find it funny to let her sit in her misery, something of a joke if you will. So letting her live is much more cruel then killing her. Seeing as how her only enemy that I can see is Malcanthet the queen of succubus's and Malcanthet is in bed (literally) with a lot of other powerful demons, Lynkhab doesn't even register as a threat to any demon of actually power. And there is the more cruel to let her live thing. Which is a total demon thing.

EDIT: There isn't much written on her so some things the dm would have to just make up.

[Pan151]

She wants to die but I think that no one kills her because (this is simply my opinion) she is strong enough that in a fight might prove challenging her being an archfiend. No one does because she would be like a fly that just sits there and stares at you. Not bothersome just there, doing nothing. Another reason why no one has killed her yet (and this makes more sense) is because she wants to die but killing her would be nice and most demons aren't nice. They find it funny to let her sit in her misery, something of a joke if you will. So letting her live is much more cruel then killing her. Seeing as how her only enemy that I can see is Malcanthet the queen of succubus's and Malcanthet is in bed (literally) with a lot of other powerful demons, Lynkhab doesn't even register as a threat to any demon of actually power. And there is the more cruel to let her live thing. Which is a total demon thing.

EDIT: There isn't much written on her so some things the dm would have to just make up.

Alternativelly, her subconcious survival instinct overpowers her desire to die, and so no matter how many have tried to kill her (and no matter how many times she tried to kill herself) she is ultimately unable to let go (which only serves to further drive her into depression (as a person who has suffered - and still suffers, to some extent - from depression, this is what makes sense to me).

As for the topic: the only way for a character to aspire to help her and be good is to try and kill her, forever ending her misery as well as that of her victims (possibly trying to reincarnate her into a good person, but that can go horribly wrong incredibly fast).

[Eldaran]

Ok, I have Faces of Evil and Fiendish Codex 1, so I decided to pull them out and check on Lynkhab. Assuming there's no other material on her, she doesn't really correspond to that wikipedia article. Fiendish Codex mentions only that she currently vies for the title of Queen of the Succubi and that she's known as the Lady of Regret, that's it.

Faces of Evil goes more in depth and lists both reasons why she's depressed: she used to be formless desire, but took the physical body of a succubus and now is stuck and it. So because of that she wants to get rid of her body and ascend to godhood. That's it, she's not depressed because she doesn't like the abyss or she feels bad about torturing people or anything, she just wants a lot more power and can't get it. Sounds awfully evil to me.

Faces of Evil also mentions that the reason she asks people to kill her is because she's invincible, and not even other demon lords can hurt her. After people inevitably fail, she kills them. Sounds to me like she's just tormenting them off their desire to kill her.

The fact is, if you want to have a story arc about redeeming a demon lord in your campaign, that's fine. But by the books, she's still pure evil.

[keeper2161]

What is Faces of Evil?

EDIT: Its a 2E book never mind.

[Elderand]

What is Faces of Evil?

This is the face of evil

https://warosu.org/data/cgl/img/0074/30/1394909828651.jpg

[Nilehus]

If you want to play a redemption/romance arc with a demon lord, that's fine. This is someone that has risen to one of the higher ranks of power in an Evil, Evil place however. There are plenty of demons around that would gladly kill her for her power if she genuinely wanted to die. You have got your work cut out for you, and odds are, your character will end up another nameless face in her army.

As long as you go in knowing this, I think it'd definitely be fun to play. A Greek tragic hero is fun to play sometimes. :smallsmile: