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cupkeyk
2007-03-02, 08:46 AM
and need all the help they can get. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/955647200)

Matthew
2007-03-02, 08:50 AM
Doesn't look like much of anything. We'll have to wait and see...

Abardam
2007-03-02, 08:50 AM
On the bright side, paladins will (hopefully) get boosted too.

Spiryt
2007-03-02, 08:58 AM
Oh Man
I sense sarcasm :smallbiggrin:

New stuff for clerics? I am sick of it, new shiny, goddy, crappy stuff with wings and holy lights :smallyuk:
I understand that D&D is heroic, but


and going on quests that mean more than simply defeating the bad guy and grabbing the treasure
Who the hell told that you must be some crap clergy to doing that "mean more than".
I think that it's all little " over divined"

Thiel
2007-03-02, 09:12 AM
Yeah Complete Divine gave clerics more than enough cheese ammo.

Nevermore
2007-03-02, 09:13 AM
Clerics? weak? I'm confused...

cupkeyk
2007-03-02, 09:23 AM
Clerics? weak? I'm confused...

Follow the link.

Nevermore
2007-03-02, 09:26 AM
I am confused by the fact anyone thinks a Cleric is weak. Traditionally I have seen them as one of the strongest classes- Harm, all those healing spells etc

JaronK
2007-03-02, 09:27 AM
I'm pretty sure the OP was dripping with sarcasm.

JaronK

Matthew
2007-03-02, 09:27 AM
Cupkeyk doesn't think Clerics are weak, he thinks the opposite... the new Book he suspects, will power them up even more.

Nevermore
2007-03-02, 09:28 AM
Fair enough... I'm currently sitting in Philosophy class, so my sarcasm senses are asleep.

Matthew
2007-03-02, 09:31 AM
Get off the internet and back to work then!

Nevermore
2007-03-02, 09:33 AM
I would, if it weren't for the fact we were just going over junk I learned in another class last semester.

Ethdred
2007-03-02, 09:37 AM
Complete Champion? Methinks someone has been watching too many reruns of Angel

Zeb The Troll
2007-03-02, 09:39 AM
Fair enough... I'm currently sitting in Philosophy class, so my sarcasm senses are asleep.


Get off the internet and back to work then!Try this link (http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm). It may help.

Talya
2007-03-02, 09:45 AM
Complete Champion? Methinks someone has been watching too many reruns of Angel

That's only possible if you're watching that stupid season about Angel's son. If you omit that season, you can watch the show in perpetuity, and the only negative side effect is that you won't be able to watch Firefly at the same time.

Piccamo
2007-03-02, 09:48 AM
I am hoping Complete Champion gives more for paladins and rangers than anything else.


That's only possible if you're watching that stupid season about Angel's son. If you omit that season, you can watch the show in perpetuity, and the only negative side effect is that you won't be able to watch Firefly at the same time.
On a side note, I think you may vastly overvalue Angel...or perhaps any Joss Whedon product.

okpokalypse
2007-03-02, 09:50 AM
Fair enough... I'm currently sitting in Philosophy class, so my sarcasm senses are asleep.

Heh, how far along are ya? My MA is in Philosophy. :smallsmile:

Woot Spitum
2007-03-02, 09:52 AM
I certainly hope that the main intention of this book is to focus on letting other classes get some of the things that make a cleric so powerful. A fighter with some divine blessing-style feats could get plenty of good magic abilities that still make sense fluff-wise. Imagine Righteous Might being available to all melee-based classes.

cupkeyk
2007-03-02, 09:52 AM
And make the crusader as powerful as the swordsage and the warblade.

okpokalypse
2007-03-02, 09:58 AM
Yeah Complete Divine gave clerics more than enough cheese ammo.

Actually, I don't think the Complete Divine did anything to overpower Clerics. It just reprinted it... Divine Meta-Magic came about in Defenders of the Faith, Persistant Spells were reprinted in Complete Arcane, originally in Tome and Blood if I recall. And the over-powered PrCs (Radiant Servant, Contemplative, Divine Oracle, Sacred Exorcist, Storm Lord) are all from other source books before being reprinted in Complete Divine. Even a lot of the new spells were reprints from other WotC Material.

The amount of new and unique content in Complete Divine is abysmally limited once you get past the new base classes. Although, I do think Favored Soul might be the most powerful base class at the high end (when in the hands of an experienced player) when all is said and done.

IMO - the two books which have significantly overpowered Clerics are Defenders of the Faith and Libris Mortis.

cupkeyk
2007-03-02, 10:02 AM
Favored Souls are MAD and get 2 skill points per level. I think they are unplayable.

Quietus
2007-03-02, 12:07 PM
MAD and low skills does not an unplayable character make.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-02, 12:09 PM
And make the crusader as powerful as the swordsage and the warblade.

Wait, is that sarcasm, too?

Edit: clerics absolutely own the hell out of Favored Souls.

NullAshton
2007-03-02, 12:14 PM
Favored Souls are MAD and get 2 skill points per level. I think they are unplayable.

My group has a favored soul with it, and it's very useful... spontanous caster so he gets a heck of a lot of healing spells, and doing about 30 damage per hit with a bow and arrow. Healing + ranged attacking = happy melee people.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-02, 12:19 PM
Favored Souls are MAD and get 2 skill points per level. I think they are unplayable.

I'll be playing my first one for a couple of sessions so I guess I'll find out. 35 point buy for ability scores did help to alleviate the MAD, but not really since I also wanted high int. Mainly what I did was not bother with wisdom beyond the minimum I needed and didn't pick any spells that required a foe to make a dc. I just took all buff spells.

It probably won't matter what I play since the DM just gave the party paladin a gold dragon mount.

Orzel
2007-03-02, 12:21 PM
I can hope for some more ranger love. But the book gives my the feeling they make Remove Disease 2/week broken.

"I use one of my RD usages to poison everything in a 60ft radius. Then I smite the monster, giving him -8 to Fort saves..."

Fax Celestis
2007-03-02, 12:27 PM
I was under the impression that Complete Champion will boost Paladins/Crusaders/Favored Souls/Spirit Shamans more than it will boost Clerics.

JellyPooga
2007-03-02, 01:55 PM
Why is it that WotC are re-releasing all the 'Complete' books? Do we really need a Complete Divine II? Or Complete Adventurer II? No. It really gets my gaff that they keep churning out this stuff...pratically every other RPG system I know of has a number of Core Rulebooks and than all the extra material they release is different settings...D&D doesn't even have the imagination to do that - they just produce more and more rules to make the next idea they have 'cool', along with more PrC's, Spells, Feats, etc. The only alternative setting they've come up with (and even touched for years) is Eberron and as far as I can tell that's not even had an awful lot of thought put into it....AAAAAARGH!!!

Sorry, I've finished my rant now....so I'll stop and let everyne else say civilised things...

Mike_G
2007-03-02, 02:07 PM
Heh, how far along are ya? My MA is in Philosophy. :smallsmile:


I hope you can make a mean Mocha Double Skim Latte.

And you can take that from a guy with a History degree. Who's working on a ambulance.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-02, 02:07 PM
Do we NEED it? No. Do some people WANT it? Yes, since these things sell. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Man, what's your problem? Should the company just stop making money or something?

Duraska
2007-03-02, 02:10 PM
Wow, $30 a book containing:

new feats and prestige classes (we need more feats/PC's??)
dozens of deity, and belief-themed organizations, turning religion and holy (or unholy) power into something characters of all classes can use (okay... umm... can't clerics/paladins/druids/rangers already use holy/unholy power?)
For the DM, this book contains information on constructing and running quests and holy missions (hmm...)
It assists the DM in helping all characters in the party to pursue divine paths simultaneously (is this necessary?)Gotta love supplement books! :smallbiggrin:

Edit: WOTC should release it online and charge $9.95 for it. I think that would be more than fair. My point in this post is just that $30 for a supplement that seems to add nothing (in my opinion), is a rip-off. I'm fully aware that I don't "have to buy it." Still, that doesn't mean that I can't think it's ludicrous.

JellyPooga
2007-03-02, 02:14 PM
Do we NEED it? No. Do some people WANT it? Yes, since these things sell. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Man, what's your problem? Should the company just stop making money or something?

I do apologise...I haven't had a ranty rant for a while and I just needed to get it off my chest :smallsmile: .

I personally won't be buying any of the "Complete X II" books, though I do not begrudge anyone else doing so. The only reason people 'want' these new books is because they've been released. If they were not released, people wouldn't want them.

Oh, yes, the company should just 'stop making money', because they have enough books out for d&d to keep them going for a while...don't forget that they have a billion and three other enterprises that are far more recyclable than D&D (notably Magic: the Gathering - a collectible card game...by definition a product that they can continue to release material for).

Sorry, I'm starting to rant again...just thought I'd explain myself...

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-02, 02:17 PM
I do apologise...I haven't had a ranty rant for a while and I just needed to get it off my chest :smallsmile: .

I personally won't be buying any of the "Complete X II" books, though I do not begrudge anyone else doing so. The only reason people 'want' these new books is because they've been released. If they were not released, people wouldn't want them.
Really? That's funny. I certainly wanted something like Tome of Battle before it came out. I certainly want there to be a Complete Warrior II. So do lots of other people.


Oh, yes, the company should just 'stop making money', because they have enough books out for d&d to keep them going for a while...don't forget that they have a billion and three other enterprises that are far more recyclable than D&D (notably Magic: the Gathering - a collectible card game...by definition a product that they can continue to release material for).

Sorry, I'm starting to rant again...just thought I'd explain myself...
WotC is an enterprise. What they do fundamentally involves continuously creating a product and selling it at a profit. Corporations don't just say, "welp, we've got enough money. That's enough of that." If you're fine without the splatbook--great, don't buy it. I'm not going to. But WotC is not doing anything bad or wrong by making more of'em.

ReluctantDragon
2007-03-02, 02:20 PM
Do we NEED it? No. Do some people WANT it? Yes, since these things sell. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Man, what's your problem? Should the company just stop making money or something?

No no no, BWL. They don't do this to make money. They do this to make all us wonderful, wonderful people who buy their products whine, bitch, and complain about their products...even though more often than not, we still buy them. And use them. God forbid a gaming company provide new content, extended content, or descriptive content.
:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

cupkeyk
2007-03-02, 02:56 PM
MAD and low skills should make you more flexible than a Favored Soul but it doesn't. It's a heal grunt/tank that isn't as good as the cleric. The fix is as simple a what can make the sorc and the fighter a playable class, four skill points per level and a wider selection of class skills.

No one in the gaming circles I play in would ever gimp themselves by playing anything that does not get over four skill points per level. (Wizards technically get six because they are expected to have 18 INT).

ON TOPIC:
I clicked on the link and I was all: another glimmer of hope for fixing fighters/paladins... oh no... it's not.

okpokalypse
2007-03-02, 06:58 PM
I hope you can make a mean Mocha Double Skim Latte.

And you can take that from a guy with a History degree. Who's working on a ambulance.

Heh, I graduated in '98 with my MA in Philosophy and a BS in Comp Sci. It's the latter that's been my mealticket. I'm a Sr. Dev / Architect - and still taking classes part time to get my PhD knocked out. Only 2 Seminars and my Dissertation to go.

The crap part is that I'd love to teach at my alma mater (Rutgers) when I'm done, but it's extremely rare for the department to accept people graduating from their programs. I'll probably have to take a job at some university / college nearby and get some stuff published before I can move over.

okpokalypse
2007-03-02, 07:03 PM
Edit: WOTC should release it online and charge $9.95 for it. I think that would be more than fair. My point in this post is just that $30 for a supplement that seems to add nothing (in my opinion), is a rip-off. I'm fully aware that I don't "have to buy it." Still, that doesn't mean that I can't think it's ludicrous.

I've been saying that for years. Better yet, they should allow a yearly online subscription where people can export PDFs of compiled feats / spell lists / PrCs / etc from an online secure site. Not necessarily all the content from the books (like the adventures supplied, and flavor text stuff) - but the raw mechanics added to the game via the book. I'd be eager to pay an online subscription of $10 / month to have access to that. And that's more than I spend on WotC books in a year.

Hell, it wouldn't even need to be immediately available (the content). Make content available for online download 15-days after publication to give ppl incentive to get the books if they can't wait.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-03-02, 07:05 PM
Yeah Complete Divine gave clerics more than enough cheese ammo.

Except for the fact that Complete divine is awful and is by far the worst of the complete series. I don't get the vibe from reading the excerpt about the book that it's strictly for clerics and paladins. Seems to me it's also for those who want to play a devout type character. I mean you can have a religious fighter or wizard, and this seems to me to be a book for that kind of thing more than for divine casters.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-02, 07:14 PM
If I hear that there is good things for paladins there, I may think about getting it.

Thiel
2007-03-02, 07:14 PM
Except for the fact that Complete divine is awful and is by far the worst of the complete series. I don't get the vibe from reading the excerpt about the book that it's strictly for clerics and paladins. Seems to me it's also for those who want to play a devout type character. I mean you can have a religious fighter or wizard, and this seems to me to be a book for that kind of thing more than for divine casters.

Apparently I can't keep my supplements separated in my head.
But my point still stands, Clerics have all the cheese ammo they need, no reason to give them more.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-03-02, 07:15 PM
Edit: WOTC should release it online and charge $9.95 for it. I think that would be more than fair. My point in this post is just that $30 for a supplement that seems to add nothing (in my opinion), is a rip-off. I'm fully aware that I don't "have to buy it." Still, that doesn't mean that I can't think it's ludicrous.

WotC will never do that. They want to make money.

Thiel, I think you're missing my point. It sounds as if it's for the non divine classes to be able to become more divine/have more divine options if you want to take your character that way.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-02, 07:20 PM
Except for the fact that Complete divine is awful and is by far the worst of the complete series.

Complete Psionic.

That is all.

Khantalas
2007-03-02, 07:21 PM
Complete Psionic.

That is all.

QFAT .

axraelshelm
2007-03-02, 07:31 PM
Well I think more material is good I personaly want to see more core class's BUT i want them to have a better write up Organisations, famous people that had taken said class that sort of thing rather than just a paragraph and then how the other class's veiw them.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-03-02, 07:36 PM
I've been saying that for years. Better yet, they should allow a yearly online subscription where people can export PDFs of compiled feats / spell lists / PrCs / etc from an online secure site. Not necessarily all the content from the books (like the adventures supplied, and flavor text stuff) - but the raw mechanics added to the game via the book. I'd be eager to pay an online subscription of $10 / month to have access to that. And that's more than I spend on WotC books in a year.

Hell, it wouldn't even need to be immediately available (the content). Make content available for online download 15-days after publication to give ppl incentive to get the books if they can't wait.

They won't do that, because .pdf's of WotC books are already easily found in the p2p networks, and that's mid-level quality scans...

Why would they provide high quality scanned .pdf's of new products so that the book pirates can break the DRM and upload them?

TheThan
2007-03-02, 07:45 PM
Yeah Complete Divine gave clerics more than enough cheese ammo.


Whoa, wait a minute, clerics have some sort of cheese gun? What’s it for? Fighting off Druidzillas?

... Actually that sounds pretty cool.

edit
I got it! high level druid, wild shapes into t-rex, then casts animal growth on himself. Tada! A druidzilla!

okpokalypse
2007-03-02, 08:00 PM
Favored Souls are MAD and get 2 skill points per level. I think they are unplayable.

I have never had a problem with the low skill points or MAD. In fact, I ignore the MAD, and go Charisma all the way, and get a Fighter/SoL Cohort to be my strong-arm. I take the PHB-II Variant, and later dip into Sacred Exorcist to get Turns, and access to Divine Meta-Magic. I also do a dip to get Divine Grace.

I stick with spells that are primarily Buffs or Heals. I have 60' Fly Speed (Non-Dispellable) and Spontaneous Casting. I've never found the Spells Known limit to be a hindrance - because I've defined my role, and experience has taught me to choose a diverse spell selection.

At L20 I run with a 14 Str, 22 Dex, 24 Con, 14 Int, 28 Wis, 44 Cha (32 Point-Buy at Creation). I'm affected by: DR 10 / Magic and Evil; Acid, Cold, Elecrticity Resist (20); Sonic, Fire, Force Resistance (10); SR 25; Storm Rage (Maximized, Persisted - 60 Elec Damage / Round, Ranged Touch, No Save, CL 29). My Saves are something like 50+ Fort, 45+ Ref, 50+ Will. I've got just under 250 HP. My total Equipment Value is only 85% WBL.

On those few spells I cast that require DC Saves, I just make sure I'm exploiting the weakest save. Reasonably, DCs tend to be in the 24 - 28 Range. Not great, but not Horrible, and the flexibility to call upon any known spell more than makes up for it. I also took Expand Knowledge at L18 to get Greater Celerity.

Oh, and 7 Miracles a day when needed are pretty nice, since they effectively mimic any Cleric Spell <= 8th Level or any other Spell <= 7th level without costing me XP. They're basically my "Turn the Tide" buttons - giving me instant access to almost any spell I could use given a situation. I tend to make sure I always have one handy for putting up a Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion at the end of a day. :smallsmile:

As far as the limited skills, the base 40 Diplomacy is very nice, especially coupled with the +15 Divine Insight Boost, +10 Diplomacy Item and +3 from Effects on the group. Yay min Diplomacy Check of 69! And while my Leadership is effectively maxxed as a non-Epic PC, once I get my Epic Leadership I should be attracting around 1700 followers, and my Cohort will eventually go Epic as well.

I've no doubt a Cleric can be equally as effective, but again, I just greatly favor a limited spell-list and spontaneous casting on the Divine side. 6 Spells Known per Level is MORE than enough for my play style. The group Cerebramancer is the Utility guy.

Mike_G
2007-03-02, 11:05 PM
Heh, I graduated in '98 with my MA in Philosophy and a BS in Comp Sci. It's the latter that's been my mealticket. I'm a Sr. Dev / Architect - and still taking classes part time to get my PhD knocked out. Only 2 Seminars and my Dissertation to go.

The crap part is that I'd love to teach at my alma mater (Rutgers) when I'm done, but it's extremely rare for the department to accept people graduating from their programs. I'll probably have to take a job at some university / college nearby and get some stuff published before I can move over.

I feel your pain. The thing you can do with a Philosphy degree is ... teach Philosophy. But, my History degree is worth about the same. I beacme an EMT to have ajob I could do off hours so I could get my treaching degree, but decided I loved it, became a Paramedic, and there you go.

When I find m,yself too old to carry obese chest pain patients down three flights of stairs, I'll probably get certified to teach, finally having enough education to take a pay cut.

Yahzi
2007-03-03, 12:52 AM
Heh, I graduated in '98 with my MA in Philosophy and a BS in Comp Sci.
My BA is in philosophy, but I took 30 credit hours of philosophy and 42 of Comp Sci... so ya, I have a job. :smallbiggrin:

ArmorArmadillo
2007-03-03, 01:12 AM
Sigh, I don't see why people immediately assume this book is going to be CoDzilla cheese. It says that it's for "devout" characters, I'm sure it helps clerics but it probably also has features to allow religion to be more than useless fluff for most non-cleric/pally classes.
At least see what the book has before hating on it.

marjan
2007-03-03, 01:31 AM
At L20 I run with a 14 Str, 22 Dex, 24 Con, 14 Int, 28 Wis, 44 Cha (32 Point-Buy at Creation). I'm affected by: DR 10 / Magic and Evil; Acid, Cold, Elecrticity Resist (20); Sonic, Fire, Force Resistance (10); SR 25; Storm Rage (Maximized, Persisted - 60 Elec Damage / Round, Ranged Touch, No Save, CL 29). My Saves are something like 50+ Fort, 45+ Ref, 50+ Will. I've got just under 250 HP. My total Equipment Value is only 85% WBL.

And how did you get all of this with 32 point buy and 85% of WBL?
I'm just curious.

Edit: What race, equipment...?

Quietus
2007-03-03, 03:14 AM
Whoa, wait a minute, clerics have some sort of cheese gun? What’s it for? Fighting off Druidzillas?

... Actually that sounds pretty cool.

edit
I got it! high level druid, wild shapes into t-rex, then casts animal growth on himself. Tada! A druidzilla!

Except for the whole thing where I don't think that animal growth works on the druid themself. Don't druids keep their type (humanoid), while Animal Growth only works on Animals?

Thomas
2007-03-03, 03:46 AM
The point of the Completes is to give material built around a theme to all classes, though - this pretty explicitly spelled out in the description there. Divine wizards, rogues, fighters, etc.


Really? That's funny. I certainly wanted something like Tome of Battle before it came out. I certainly want there to be a Complete Warrior II. So do lots of other people.

Yeah, ditto. I wanted Complete Mage for months before I even found out they were going to do it (or that they'd make more than four Completes) - because wizards and sorcerers really got shafted as far as cool prestige classes etc. go, in my opinion. (The Archmage was practically the only wizard PrC I ever used, because everything else was too weird, had too specific a flavor, or cost you caster levels.)


Except for the fact that Complete divine is awful and is by far the worst of the complete series.

Yeah. Out of the whole book, I use the Pious Templar prestige class, a few feats (the feats that let you actually do something useful with turn undead attempts were a great addition), but that's really it.

If the difference in quality between Divine and Champion is similar to the difference between Arcane and Mage, I can expect to be using over half the PrCs and most of the feats.

BlueWizard
2007-03-03, 07:01 AM
Clerics are not weak. 'Nuf said.

okpokalypse
2007-03-03, 12:11 PM
And how did you get all of this with 32 point buy and 85% of WBL?
I'm just curious.

Edit: What race, equipment...?

Human, Starting Stats: 8 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 16 Cha

Items / Boosts:
+5 Cha (Levels) + 5 Cha (Inherent via Extract Gift - 25k gp, 1k xp)
+6 Cha (Enhance - 36k) +4 Cha (Sacred - 32k), +4 Cha (Luck - 32k)

+6 Wis (Enhance - 36k) +4 Wis (Inherent via Extract Gift - 16k gp, 640 xp)
+6 Con (Enhance - 36k)
+6 Dex (Enhance - 36k)

Multiple Stat Boosts via Persisted Spells (See Below)

Effective Stats: 22 Str, 22 Dex, 26 Con, 14 Int, 28 Wis, 44 Cha
Total Item Value (So far): ~250k

Persistent Effects:


- Greater Visage of the Deity (L9)
+4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha, SR 25, DR 10 / Magic, Multiple Resistances, Immunities, etc... Stat Bonuses are Untyped (Inhereted Half Celestial Template)

- Storm Rage (L8 - Maximized)
Discharge Lightning for 10d6 (60), Ranged Touch, No Save on hit. This can be used every round as a Standard Action.

- Righteous Might (L5) [I forgot to include this in the Above Stats in the Previous Post]
+4 Str (Size), +2 Con (Size), +Size, DR 10 / Evil

- Divine Power (L4) [I forgot to include this in the Above Stats in the Previous Post]
+6 Str (Size), +1 HP/Level, Gain Fighter BAB (Awesome for Ranged Touch Attacks)Other items of note:
- Night Stick (6)
- Bead of Karma (+4 CL)
- +CL Ioun Stone
- Meta-Magic Quicken Rod
- Mithril +5 Armor / Shield Combo

The above is geared for a Support / Defensive Build. If you wanted to go more offensive, you could add in two different Persists...

Bite of the Werebear (L15 via Expanded Knowledge): +16 Str (Enhance), +8 Con (Enhance), +7 Natural Armor, Natural Attacks, Blind Fight, Power Attack.

Giant Size (L18 via Expanded Knowledge): Grow up to Colossal Size. +32 Str (Size), +12 Con (Size), +12 Natural Armor (Size), -2 Dex (Size), 30' Reach. (Replacing Righteous Might)

So with these two you get a total of +48 Str, +20 Con and +19 Natural AC - plus some Combat Feats. Granted, you blow two Feats to do it, but I think if you're a melee build, it's totally worth it. It also reduces your need for a +Con (Enhance) item.

Edit: I got Turn Undead via a PrC to get DMM's. I got Divine Grace via a PrC to get those ludicrous 50+ Saves.

cupkeyk
2007-03-03, 05:24 PM
Clerics are not weak. 'Nuf said.

Yet another person who is incapable of seeing past sarcasm.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-03, 06:22 PM
It really gets my gaff that they keep churning out this stuff...pratically every other RPG system I know of has a number of Core Rulebooks and than all the extra material they release is different settings...D&D doesn't even have the imagination to do that...
Either that, or they did a bit of market research, realized that the people who play the game had all the imagination they needed to have a bunch of homebrew settings, and so have been concentrating on generic material that can be plugged into any setting.

There's something to be said for modularity and intercompatibility.

cupkeyk
2007-03-03, 06:26 PM
Either that, or they did a bit of market research, realized that the people who play the game had all the imagination they needed to have a bunch of homebrew settings, and so have been concentrating on generic material that can be plugged into any setting.

There's something to be said for modularity and intercompatibility.

Ditto the motion. We have been playing FR since the 80's and have been using the 2nd ed stuff without difficulty since we are opting for fluff than crunch. The current material offers all the crunch we need and it fits nicely to all the previously published books with little retcon necessary.

The_Snark
2007-03-03, 07:32 PM
I've always preferred homebrew settings also; Ebberon and Forgotten Realms are nice, but in general I prefer my own flavor.

Oh, Planescape. That's the exception. It's awesome.

Anyway... I rather like playing divine characters, and Complete Divine wasn't all that impressive, so hopefully this will do something for it. Not that divine characters aren't already powerful enough, but the PrCs were either too good or lackluster, and there was the same problem with feats. So I don't object to this, but I do have one question:

If they're releasing the second part of the Complete series, why did they wait to do Complete Warrior II last, as warrior-types are generally seen as the ones that need some help?

JellyPooga
2007-03-03, 07:34 PM
If they're releasing the second part of the Complete series, why did they wait to do Complete Warrior II last, as warrior-types are generally seen as the ones that need some help?

Well, I suppose Tome of Battle and that Book of the Nine Swords or whatever it was could be considered as a bonus for warrior types...

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-03, 07:53 PM
Well, I suppose Tome of Battle and that Book of the Nine Swords or whatever it was could be considered as a bonus for warrior types...

Psst! That's the same book.

marjan
2007-03-03, 09:43 PM
Inherent via Extract Gift
What exactly is extract gift?

Again, just curious.

okpokalypse
2007-03-03, 09:58 PM
What exactly is extract gift?

Again, just curious.

Spell from Fiendish Codex I : Hordes of the Abyss

5th Level - 1 Hour Casting time. You essentially have to summon a demon keep it contained, and this spell then steals a portion of it's power. It can leech up to 5 Inherent stat points per casting or up to 10 skill points. There are requirements on the power level of the demon. The more powful the demon (high the stat / skill in question is) the more you can steal from it. The duration of the Inherent Bonus is Permanent.

The cost is 1,000 gp per +Stat^2. And 1/25 that cost in XP.
For Skills, it's 100 gp per +Skill^2. And 1/25 that cost in XP.

Moderately overpowered, because it makes wish irrelevant for gaining inherent bonuses. Where getting a +5 Stat via Wish costs 25,000 XP, this costs 25,000 gp and only 1,000 xp. But of course, there's a moderate risk the spell will be resisted, saved against (it allows the Demon a save) or you'll screw up and have to deal with an angry demon.

marjan
2007-03-03, 10:28 PM
Too bad I'm good.:smallsmile:
But thanx for info.

Arceliar
2007-03-03, 10:31 PM
Complete Arcane ~ Complete Mage
Complete Adventurer ~ Complete Scoundrel
Complete Divine ~ Complete Champion
Complete Warrior ~ Complete-ly useless now.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-03, 10:50 PM
Complete Warrior ~ Complete-ly useless now.

Awwww, snap!

Sam K
2007-03-04, 08:08 AM
Either that, or they did a bit of market research, realized that the people who play the game had all the imagination they needed to have a bunch of homebrew settings, and so have been concentrating on generic material that can be plugged into any setting.

There's something to be said for modularity and intercompatibility.

Plus you'll only sell one or two settings to the same group. Usually only DMs buy them (and there's only one DM for every 3-5 players), asssuming the DM doesn't use a home brew setting. And if you update the rules, most settings stay relevant.

Rule books, on the other hand, sell to just about everyone. Several players want their own copies (to properly work out the most outrageous combos), and even if a book consists of 99% junk and 1% over powered material, it will sell some copies because alot of DMs will (sadly) allow outrageously over powered things as long as it's in an official book.

WotC may well be money grubbing little gnomes that will put together any collection of reprinted fecal matter for sale and call it a splat book, but lets be honest: it obviously works for them, and I wouldn't change such a winning concept either.

Renegade Paladin
2007-03-04, 08:11 AM
I've known about this book for some months now; for some reason they put stuff up for preorder on Amazon way the hell before they're announced on the WotC site. :smallconfused:

Anyway, I'm rather hoping it'll be aimed more at paladins and monks than clerics, which really need the boost more.

Rigeld2
2007-03-04, 10:29 AM
Moderately overpowered, because it makes wish irrelevant for gaining inherent bonuses.
No it doesnt. Not only is there a risk involved with your method, its dispellable.
Oh, and youve got too many persistent spells. 7 turns per spell, you have 24 with the NightStick (unless the PrC you dipped gives you more on top of that).

okpokalypse
2007-03-04, 12:37 PM
No it doesnt. Not only is there a risk involved with your method, its dispellable.
Oh, and youve got too many persistent spells. 7 turns per spell, you have 24 with the NightStick (unless the PrC you dipped gives you more on top of that).

You forgot the 3 Base and +17 for Charisma. I've got 44 Turns.

Also, why would this be dispellable, and not a Wish, when you're talking same bonus and both permanent?

The_Snark
2007-03-04, 01:30 PM
Well, I suppose Tome of Battle and that Book of the Nine Swords or whatever it was could be considered as a bonus for warrior types...

True, but it doesn't help existing warrior-types very much; it just provides alternatives to them. Although they did make it easier to turn an existing character into a martial adept, with the +1/2 initiator levels thing.

Anyway, Complete Warrior was probably one of the best of the Complete series, I think, so I'm sort of hoping they'll manage to do it again.

AoiRorentsu
2007-03-04, 01:46 PM
The only alternative setting they've come up with (and even touched for years) is Eberron and as far as I can tell that's not even had an awful lot of thought put into it....AAAAAARGH!!!

I'm not going to defend WotC's business sense of churning out new books like crazy (though honestly, i'm cool with it to whatever extent it keeps them in business). I would, however, contend that your reference to "Complete Adventurer II," which I take to mean Complete Scoundrel, is a little unfair. While they both are like basically all splatbooks - new feats, new PrCs, as the primary things to take away- they are of different flavors, and I would argue that while CAd is almost exclusively about characters, CS is about campaigns. But that's a long discussion because there's lots of totally reasonable sentiments on both regards.

I will, however, suggest that as silly as having trains is (particularly for giving new meaning to the phrase "railroading your players"), Eberron is perhaps the coolest setting D&D has ever had. Where Forgotten Realms always read like "feudal Europe + magic," Eberron very thoughtfully integrated magic into the everyday lives of the people who live there (even the vast majority of people who can't use magic). The post-war politics of the setting gives the setting the sweet, intoxicating aroma of intrigue, setting up conflicts that groups can explore (or not) as they like. Furthermore, the fact that there aren't Elminsters and Drizzts and Khelbens and "whichever high-level NPC you likes" aren't there makes the heroes feel more like heroes. Again, not necessary, but it adds to the flavor of an Eberron campaign. That being said, though, they still managed to create some of the cooler villains that D&D has seen in a while without (in most cases) making them ridiculously over-powered.

Given that you say "and as far as I can tell," I'm guessing you haven't read through the setting very much. I would highly recommend that you do. If nothing else, there are a lot of great ideas in there that can be lovingly imported into your own games.

Arceliar
2007-03-04, 02:11 PM
You forgot the 3 Base and +17 for Charisma. I've got 44 Turns.

Also, why would this be dispellable, and not a Wish, when you're talking same bonus and both permanent?

Yeah, AFAIK inherent bonuses can't be dispelled. But I'm not particularly familiar with the spell in question so I don't know for certain.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-04, 02:12 PM
There's a difference between Permanent and Instantaneous (Wish's bonuses are the latter).

JellyPooga
2007-03-04, 03:05 PM
Psst! That's the same book.

Oop! Can you tell I haven't got it, by any chance?

Rigeld2
2007-03-04, 04:34 PM
You forgot the 3 Base and +17 for Charisma. I've got 44 Turns.
No, I didnt. You get 3 base, and 17 for Charisma. Plus the Nightstick. Unless you took Extra Turning 5 times.


Also, why would this be dispellable, and not a Wish, when you're talking same bonus and both permanent?
Already answered, but Permanent is dispellable, Instantaneous isnt.

Collin152
2007-03-04, 05:02 PM
Complete Arcane ~ Complete Mage
Complete Adventurer ~ Complete Scoundrel
Complete Divine ~ Complete Champion
Complete Warrior ~ Complete-ly useless now.
Man, I just can't wait for Complete Arcane III: Revenge of the Complete Archmage

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-04, 05:04 PM
It's worth noting that the second Complete books have a lot more stuff for all classes. For example, Complete Mage has fighter, paladin, and monk substitution features, the Abjurant Champion (warrior/mage), three Warlock prestige classes, et cetera. Similarily, Complete Scoundrel features skill tricks anyone can get, the Grey Guard, et cetera.

TheThan
2007-03-04, 06:32 PM
Except for the whole thing where I don't think that animal growth works on the druid themself. Don't druids keep their type (humanoid), while Animal Growth only works on Animals?


*looks up rules*.... Aww crap, looks like your right. But then again its frustrating when you look up any one of the shape changing spells (polymorph, baleful polymorph, alter self, wild shape etc), and it tells you to look it up somewhere else, so you flip to that page, and it says to look it up somewhere else. Its like why did they bother making these other spells when one generic “change shape” spell would have done the trick, and saved like 5 pages of text.


Either that, or they did a bit of market research, realized that the people who play the game had all the imagination they needed to have a bunch of homebrew settings, and so have been concentrating on generic material that can be plugged into any setting.

There's something to be said for modularity and intercompatibility.


Hah, that’s a laugh Wotc actually wanting people to play something other than their published campaign worlds? Sorry that’s just wishful thinking.

Renegade Paladin
2007-03-04, 06:35 PM
Hah, that’s a laugh Wotc actually wanting people to play something other than their published campaign worlds? Sorry that’s just wishful thinking.
It's not a matter of wanting; it's one of acknowledging reality. Whether Wizards wants us to or not, the fact remains, and shall remain, that loads of gaming groups use homebrew settings and will never touch a Forgotten Realms or Eberron book. Besides, they did put the world-building chapter into the DMG and greatly expanded upon it in DMG2. :smallamused:

okpokalypse
2007-03-04, 06:57 PM
No, I didnt. You get 3 base, and 17 for Charisma. Plus the Nightstick. Unless you took Extra Turning 5 times.

Nightsticks. Plural. There's 6.


Already answered, but Permanent is dispellable, Instantaneous isnt.

Gotcha.. You're completely correct. However, in-game they could be cast at CL 31 (I'd need two more items to do it with this PC) making them effectively un-dispellable by anyone without Elven Spell Lore or being a Master Specialist (Abjurer).

Part of the broken mechanic of CL capping at 20 on Greater Dispel. The best you could theoretically roll is a 30 without boost(s) to the Dispel attempts that aren't CL Based.

TheThan
2007-03-04, 06:59 PM
It's not a matter of wanting; it's one of acknowledging reality. Whether Wizards wants us to or not, the fact remains, and shall remain, that loads of gaming groups use homebrew settings and will never touch a Forgotten Realms or Eberron book. Besides, they did put the world-building chapter into the DMG and greatly expanded upon it in DMG2. :smallamused:

Yes they acknowledge the existence of homebrewers, but they would much rather prefer that they buy their products instead of make their own. It was a big surprise when I learned that the d20 rules wen OGL, a welcome surprise sure but it was a bit of a surprise.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-04, 09:05 PM
Yes they acknowledge the existence of homebrewers, but they would much rather prefer that they buy their products instead of make their own.
Of course they want us to buy their products. That's why they focus so heavily on the generic setting-independent stuff rather than publishing campaign settings. That's the stuff they know will sell.

Lord Xaedien
2007-03-05, 01:43 AM
So who is going to break it to wizards that its not "Devine" as the second line of text reads?

Matthew
2007-03-06, 03:10 PM
All the generic D&D material is Grey Hawk compatable. Half the reason for not expanding Grey Hawk or fleshing it out is so that it remains generic enough to support any given adventure or scenario. All generic D&D material defaults to Grey Hawk, but is compatable with unassociated Home Brew settings.

Collin152
2007-03-06, 09:27 PM
So who is going to break it to wizards that its not "Devine" as the second line of text reads?
Looks like you just volunteerd by pointing it out. High-five!

Talya
2007-03-07, 01:09 PM
OMG, a corporation that sells stuff wants to make lots more stuff that its customers will want to buy! I'm shocked!

Okay, my sarcasm gland is overacting again. I'm sorry.

Renegade Paladin
2007-03-09, 11:29 PM
Huh. Odd. The WotC site says the book is due for release in May, but Amazon says June 12. What's the deal?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-10, 02:17 PM
Maybe the date was moved up. Amazon's been known to make mistakes before. This reminds me of the problem Rich had when he registered for an ISBN for one of his OOtS books under a temporary title. That book became No Cure for the Paladin Blues, but Amazon had the wrong title and publication date for the longest time because they were going off of the old ISBN registration info.

afternoon
2007-03-10, 02:47 PM
The thing is, us as a group could create what's in these books. They're not super geniuses- while they are decent, the only reason people feel obligated to buy Wizards products is because they're basically considered the "canon" of D&D.

Abardam
2007-03-10, 07:06 PM
I like to think Wizards hired them for a reason, you know.

But yeah, some of the stuff of the guys on here excellent.