OOTS #958 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

(I just noticed that I misnumbered it; should be fixed in a moment.)

[Quirk]

This comic clearly does not do what its title promises! ;)

I was slightly confused when I logged on and the title on the left said "957 This sucks". Thought you suddenly disliked the choice to have Belkar go overboard. :D

[otakuryoga]

wow...your vampires are reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaal boring.....

also: Darn you Quirk!

[Killer Angel]

Poor Elan, no reward for him! :smallbiggrin:

[Quirk]

Elan + Durkon + mesmerizing web of erotic subtext = reward? :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[CoffeeIncluded]

We'll that's an interesting use of relax-O-vision. I guess Durkon can't bear to look? Though does it also imply that he now thinks of the Order as being almost like his family?

Also you'd think the vampire's eagerness would alert Roy, now that he's seeing it. I mean, if it really were Durkon in there he'd be a lot more careful and try harder to make it less painful. He'd probably apologize a lot too.

[Lord Raziere]

I like how everyone is so nonchalant about Belkar falling overboard. Like its not even a thing they're all that concerned about, they just know he is going to survive the fall because DnD falling rules.

and yeah, Vampire the Requiem/Masquerade reference again. Apparently other RPG's are fictional in their universe too.

[greatscott]

Necklace? Hmm.


What did the rest of the singing scene mean?

[Decado]

Still a better love story than Twilight.

[Timy]

I don't get it.

What was the purpose of this strip ?

And what was the panel where we see Durkon family ??

[hamishspence]

It shows that the song is one Durkon remembers, maybe.

[Kato]

Man, Belkar really is unlucky...

So, I guess the Giant is not referencing True Blood with the "erotic subtext" because... well, it's not exactly subtext there. Aren't vampires supposed to get an increase in Charisma? Doesn't really work for Durkon so far... (Though, maybe fake Durkon just had abysmal charisma to begin with)

[PsykoKnight]

Id like to hear the one about where Freya got the necklace too! I love naughty mythology.

Uncle Squeaky is also called Thirden, some Joke I dont get? Third Squeaky Wheel?

[jidasfire]

Most likely Rich was referring to the rules for Vampire: The Masquerade, where drinking from vampires creates Ghouls (mortals temporarily empowered by vampiric blood) and the Blood Bond (creating a fanatical sense of semi-romantic loyalty to the vamp in question).

[Yendor]

I liked the bit about Freya's tale. Not really family-friendly.

[Anarion]

Elan is being way too meta here. I can't even grasp the layers of "we must follow story tropes" in the sane comic that distinguishes real and fictional vampires.

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

(I just noticed that I misnumbered it; should be fixed in a moment.)

Brilliant, thanks:-)

[Snowfire]

:roy: "This is like when he tried to get Miko to kill him, just to get her in trouble."

And of course, there was no possible actual justification for him doing that at all.

...

Oh wait *facepalm*

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Dracon1us]

ladies and gentleman, I give you Roy , 18 and counting Intelligence score. :smallconfused:

[With a box]

I wonder Roy will ignore Belkar's statement that he mind contoled to jump
He can varify his word with V's magic isn't him?

[TerrickTerran]

Poor Elan, all his fun crushed by the reality of vampirism. I like how the comic puts it in perspective.

[Dissection]

*sigh*
Belkar gets no credit

[Shale]

He'll probably assume Belkar is concocting an elaborate scheme to try and get Durkon staked.

[Candorio]

Finally ;) sooooo happy right now :)

[Killer Angel]

I wonder Roy will ignore Belkar's statement that he mind contoled to jump


"...or You jumped overboard, conveniently landing on the harpoon, just to get Durkon in trouble."

[dtilque]

Id like to hear the one about where Freya got the necklace too! I love naughty mythology.
I assume this is what's meant: Freyja (http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/mythology/myths/text/freyja.htm)


Uncle Squeaky is also called Thirden, some Joke I dont get? Third Squeaky Wheel?

Probably just his name and no joke intended. Perhaps acquired the nickname when first learning to play and was producing more noise than good music.

[Boogastreehouse]

*


Huh. My first impression was that Elan was getting a glimpse of Durkon's memory.


*

[elros]

I always appreciate when someone mocks modern vampire lore, so it's only natural that Elan does so!

I wonder what the flashback portends. The Giant wouldn't throw that in there unless it is going to play a greater role moving forward. I guess that we are going to see a lot more of Durkon's family, since this book appears to focus on Durkon being a vampire. Should be good stuff...

[Rendel Nep]

I wonder if all these memories will come up when and or if they return Durkon back to life.

[StickFan291]

Always love a good Twilight jab.

[Keltest]

I hope the giant hurries up and gets them off the darn boat soon. It feels like theyre all just sitting around waiting for something exciting and plot-relevant (something they can see, at least) to happen.

[Jay R]

Um, Elan? This is a webcomic. He is a fictional vampire.

[Gusion]

I am surprised a bit at how dumb Roy is being.

[Timy]

Most likely Rich was referring to the rules for Vampire: The Masquerade, where drinking from vampires creates Ghouls (mortals temporarily empowered by vampiric blood) and the Blood Bond (creating a fanatical sense of semi-romantic loyalty to the vamp in question).

Actually, in VtM, it is when somebody drank vampire blood not the other way.

I don't know anything about a link being created by a vampire drinking mortal blood afterward (during the drinking, there IS pleasure for he mortal).

[Keltest]

I am surprised a bit at how dumb Roy is being.

Im pretty sure hes faking it. Although he could genuinely believe that Belkar is going out of his way to try and make Durkon look worse than he is, the way he talks when Durkon isn't in the room (specifically his chat with V) says to me that he is keeping an eye on Durkon, even if he isn't telling anyone.

[ratfox]

Um, Elan? This is a webcomic. He is a fictional vampire.

Whooosh :)

[Aedilred]

I don't get it.

What was the purpose of this strip ?


Yeah, it is a bit filler-y, spending more time on a recap and "oh that wacky Elan" than it did on addressing the events of the previous strip (Roy's reaction Belkar's jumping overboard getting less than a full panel...) My guess would be this was intended as a recap entry, which is why nothing of particular consequence is addressed, although that does make me wonder why it couldn't just have been included as bonus material in the printed book since on the web version the discussion it's recapping were only twenty strips or so back.

[Peelee]

Im pretty sure hes faking it. Although he could genuinely believe that Belkar is going out of his way to try and make Durkon look worse than he is, the way he talks when Durkon isn't in the room (specifically his chat with V) says to me that he is keeping an eye on Durkon, even if he isn't telling anyone.

Samesies. Roy is smart; he's going to be slowly putting things together from tiny contextual clues and oddities.

[bladequeen420]

Glad durokan isn't sparkling twilight sucks

[Ivrytwr]

Poor Elan, didn't read the fine print before agreeing to the donation. Bummer!
Love the whole 'fictional vampires' comment. Lots of meta today, very funny.
Roy setting them up for Elan, but Elan is too accustomed to having to work for it.

Thanks, Giant!

[Timy]

Do you think it could be possible for a link really being created ?

I mean, could the oots have some clues of the state of Durkon by repeatedly being drain by the HPoH ?

[Quild]

wow, the denial is strong with this one.

Belkar's plan when he wanted Miko to kill him was to be resurrected by Durkon. It will sure be harder this time if he happens to die. Jumping overboard could have resulted into drowning... And to his end. Forever.



Panel 6: The frost trolls? Really? Not giants?

[TheMiningDwarf]

Im pretty sure hes faking it. Although he could genuinely believe that Belkar is going out of his way to try and make Durkon look worse than he is, the way he talks when Durkon isn't in the room (specifically his chat with V) says to me that he is keeping an eye on Durkon, even if he isn't telling anyone.

I should hope you're right and this isn't just Roy holding the idiot ball otherwise I'm going to be very disappointed by this storyline.



I wonder Roy will ignore Belkar's statement that he mind controlled to jump
He can verify his word with V's magic isn't him?

There are lie detection spells that might work but, I can count on one hand the number of times magic has been used to solve important plot relevant problems in this comic.

But nevertheless your post did make me think of something, just after V saved Belkar from Miko V reminded Belkar that they wouldn't be able to raise him because they didn't have any diamonds and that worried Belkar. Might be kind of a stretch to bring that up now, but maybe V could remember that Belkar isn't about to kill himself to get someone else in trouble.

[Dracon1us]

I am surprised a bit at how dumb Roy is being.

absolutely

[Iain]

So, was Elan seeing Durkon's thoughts while being drained by the vampire?

Or have I misunderstood that cut-panel?

[Psyren]

I bet it was a pearl necklace...


I am surprised a bit at how dumb Roy is being.

It only looks that way to us because we got the reveal that he's really evil. Had it not been for that scene with Hel, we'd still have half the forum saying that Darkon is free-willed and therefore neutral, just like they were when he snapped Z's neck.

[Sunken Valley]

Why does it suddenly cut to Durkon's Memories?

[Zid]

So, was Elan seeing Durkon's thoughts while being drained by the vampire?

Or have I misunderstood that cut-panel?

I think so too. I predict that there will be an instance where a member is drained and the memory recived will reveal durculas true nature. There was a lute playing, and a lute memory. What is something else was to happen during the feeding?

[jidasfire]

Actually, in VtM, it is when somebody drank vampire blood not the other way.

I don't know anything about a link being created by a vampire drinking mortal blood afterward (during the drinking, there IS pleasure for he mortal).

I know that, but for one thing, I was simplifying since no one wants to listen to a long lecture on a mostly defunct RPG, and also, Elan's dumb and gets things confused (on multiple levels).

[Fearabbit]

Am I misreading this, or did Durkon interrupt Elan from playing the song exactly because he is afraid of what it may do?
Durkon asks him why he's playing the lute; but as soon as he learns it's an old Dwarven song, he interrupts it by biting Elan.

I think the song is some sort of trigger, and if Elan had kept playing, the memory would've been longer and maybe would've had a certain effect on the vampire.

In any case, I love the story about Durkon so far. It's a different approach to the other ones somehow. We didn't know much about Durkon before, and now reliving his memories together with him while an evil entity is trying to gain full control over his body is a very intense experience. We see the memories, and they are what's at stake. Certainly a very novel way of dealing with a character's background, and I applaud the Giant for it.

[Ezekiel]

Every time people say "I can't believe Roy is being this clueless/dumb/unobservant," I just think of their little side trip to Cliffport and "Wizard Guy." Roy has been pretty good at not noticing/caring about things if they're not about him throughout the story, in my opinion.

[pendell]

Thank you, Giant!

I don't think Elan was seeing Durkon's thoughts. I'm not exactly sure what the cut panel was for, showing us Durkon's memories, but the Giant wouldn't have spent time drawing us if it wasn't important somehow. Perhaps it will become clear later why the panel is relevant.

ETA: Most likely it's simple character development, fleshing out Durkon as a character rather than leaving him the simple dull healbot he has been. OOTS is a character-driven comic, after all.


ladies and gentleman, I give you Roy , 18 and counting Intelligence score. :smallconfused:

Two things there:
1) Roy doesn't have access to the third person omniscient view we do -- he's acting off of Belkar's previous behavior and Durkon's previously established behavior, not realizing its' actually Durkula in Durkon's body.

And given Belkar's long history of murder and mind games, it's no surprise Roy is impossible to dissuade at this juncture.

It's easy to jump down Roy's throat for information he doesn't have; if I was acting only on the info Roy had I'd almost certainly be backing him up.

2) Roy, like any character who isn't a Mary Sue, has flaws. And the problem with a flaw is that high wisdom and intelligence often exacerbate those flaws rather than correct them.

Take Redcloak. He no doubt has a wisdom score in the stratosphere, but that hasn't enabled him to see through the Dark One, even though far less intelligent and wise goblins have done so. It's because Redcloak has a character flaw, and that is an inability to admit being wrong and a belief in the sunken cost fallacy. So his great wisdom score, rather than being applied to seeing through the flaws in his belief, is instead applied to rationalizing them.

Roy also has a flaw, and that is also his greatest virtue: His trust and reliance in his friends regardless of race, species, or alignment.

It's because of this he's stood by Belkar and kept him on the team even when he committed cold-blooded murder. And it's also why he's standing by Durkula now, even though he is a literally bloodthirsty monster.

Roy said awhile ago that not everything is about good and evil, and this is true. But at some point good and evil have to start kicking in, or you have to start wondering whether you're still on the right side.

"My friends right or wrong" is the same line of thinking as "my country right or wrong", after all, and we all know where that sort of thinking can lead.

I have a suspicion there is a very real possibility that Durkula will goad Roy into killing Belkar.

And it occurs to me that Roy has also provided Durkula with a perfect pretext for murder. At some point, Roy will outlive his usefulness to Durkula.

At which point, Roy's turn for 'blood donation' will come up -- and this time, instead of draining and restoring, Durkula drains him dry. Then you have TWO vampires. If he successfully arranged Belkar's death earlier, that leaves Vampire-Roy and Durkula vs. Vaarsuvius, Elan, Haley, and Blackwing.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

Belkar's plan when he wanted Miko to kill him was to be resurrected by Durkon. It will sure be harder this time if he happens to die.
It would have been impossible then, Vaarsuvius pointed out that Durkon didn't have the diamonds, remember?

[Sunken Valley]

I think having the panel just being there in such a jarring manner without properly explaining it is poor visual story telling.

[Iain]

I think having the panel just being there in such a jarring manner without properly explaining it is poor visual story telling.

I'd like to see a bit more of this story arc before dismissing it as poorly told! We've had, what, 12 updates so far..?

It might become more obvious if it keeps happening; in the meantime, a bit of mystery can be a good thing!

[Reddish Mage]

No Elan, I much prefer it this way.

[Keltest]

I'd like to see a bit more of this story arc before dismissing it as poorly told! We've had, what, 12 updates so far..?

It might become more obvious if it keeps happening; in the meantime, a bit of mystery can be a good thing!

If it goes unexplained I agree that it would be a bad thing. But if the Giant explains it in the next page or two, its simply a victim of the production and distribution process.

[nogall]

Why does it suddenly cut to Durkon's Memories?

I think there's a good chance that Durkon does not want to see his friends being hurt when they think they are helping him, so he'd rather think only about his memories rather than pay attention the HPoH feasting on them.

PS: by the way, am I the only to read HPoH and think its a different harry potter book that I haven't read yet? :smallbiggrin:

[Bulldog Psion]

Im pretty sure hes faking it. Although he could genuinely believe that Belkar is going out of his way to try and make Durkon look worse than he is, the way he talks when Durkon isn't in the room (specifically his chat with V) says to me that he is keeping an eye on Durkon, even if he isn't telling anyone.

Denial is definitely trumping intelligence here. He's not faking anything, IMO -- he's blocking out that Durkon is now a monster, and in particular that Belkar is right.

And I still maintain that Belkar's death will be tragic with a pinch of Victor Hugo.

[lolthfollower]

What was up with the weird flashback?

[zinycor]

I think having the panel just being there in such a jarring manner without properly explaining it is poor visual story telling.

Nah, i think the panel is fine that way, we are not meant to know yet what that panel means , and it will be explained in the future, for now it's open to interpretation. It could be that elan got some of Durkon's memoirs or that Durkon himself had that flashback. I believe it will be explained and will be an important piece of the plot.

[nohamotyo]

It would have been impossible then, Vaarsuvius pointed out that Durkon didn't have the diamonds, remember?

Sure, but Belkar didn't know that. This version of Durkon can't resurrect him (I think?) and Belkar does knows that. He could point out the difference to Roy, not that it would make any difference based on Roy apparently being oblivious so far.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Little Durkon is adorable in the flashback panel.

[Gift Jeraff]

I was under the impression that the flashback panel indicates that drinking blood speeds up the memory absorption process, though Durkon not wanting to see him drink blood makes more sense.

[Reddish Mage]

Always love a good Twilight jab.

Twilight vampires always drain their victims dry. The reference is good for Dracula but it could be a reference to any one of a variety of vampire novels, movies, or TV shows.

[dutch508]

Still a better love story than Twilight.

However, how funny would it be to have Durkula all glittery...

[Jay R]

Nah, i think the panel is fine that way, we are not meant to know yet what that panel means , and it will be explained in the future, for now it's open to interpretation. It could be that elan got some of Durkon's memoirs or that Durkon himself had that flashback. I believe it will be explained and will be an important piece of the plot.

Agreed. This is the first reference to a mysterious concept, just to pique our curiosity. We'll be exposed to it a few more times, getting a little more knowledge about it each time, until the big reveal occurs at some climactic moment.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Why does it suddenly cut to Durkon's Memories?

Music cues memories. There are certain songs I can't listen to because they call up very painful memories from when one of my cousins was dying of osteosarcoma. Matter of fact, Country music in general causes that reaction, just not as bad.

[LordRahl6]

I was under the impression that the flashback panel indicates that drinking blood speeds up the memory absorption process, though Durkon not wanting to see him drink blood makes more sense.

It depends upon who was viewing that flashback. Presently, its either Durkon or the HPoH whose viewing it. However, I could make a case that it could be Elan subconsciously receiving a call of help from Durkon. Its a wait and see moment currently.:smallwink:

[Angelalex242]

I think this is actually referencing True Blood, more then Twilight.

The connection to a vampiric drainer, however, is straight Dracula (Lucy and especially Mina, where she can use this ability as a tracking device against her master.)

[jidasfire]

As to the flashback, I think there are a few purposes. For one, we are receiving, piecemeal, the life and times of Durkon, a character who has been accused in the past of being somewhat flat compared to the rest of the party. We're seeing that Durkon actually had what seemed to be a happy childhood. As to why this particular flashback, I suspect it's because it deals with a bard Durkon knew, and perhaps remembered fondly. Plus I think Rich wanted to use that joke about the dwarves and Freya.

[Sartharina]

I'm confused about why Durkon wasn't honest about Belkar. However, these lies may eventually catch up to him.

[Keltest]

I'm confused about why Durkon wasn't honest about Belkar. However, these lies may eventually catch up to him.

presumably because "I told him to go throw himself overboard." would raise a lot more heckles than "the guy is crazy!"

[Ezekiel]

I'm confused about why Durkon wasn't honest about Belkar. However, these lies may eventually catch up to him.

Because he's destroying what's left of Belkar's credibility with Roy while Roy still trusts him (Durkula) implicitly.

[Falbrogna]

"This is like when he tried to get Miko to kill him, just to get her in trouble"

Weakest excuse ever to save Durkula from retaliation. I'm disappointed.

[Psyren]

Why does it suddenly cut to Durkon's Memories?


What was up with the weird flashback?

Elan started playing the dwarven song before he got interrupted, so I assumed the memory was Durkon recognizing the song and flashing back to the last time he heard it.

[Tuwr]

*
Huh. My first impression was that Elan was getting a glimpse of Durkon's memory.
*

That's what I thought too. Which makes it interesting that Roy donated yesterday. Perhaps he has figured out more than he lets on?

[137beth]

More Dracula references.
Of course Dracula had one major thing that High Priest of Hel doesn't: the ability to survive in sunlight:smalltongue:

[Knaight]

I always appreciate when someone mocks modern vampire lore, so it's only natural that Elan does so!

I wonder what the flashback portends. The Giant wouldn't throw that in there unless it is going to play a greater role moving forward. I guess that we are going to see a lot more of Durkon's family, since this book appears to focus on Durkon being a vampire. Should be good stuff...


Man, Belkar really is unlucky...

So, I guess the Giant is not referencing True Blood with the "erotic subtext" because... well, it's not exactly subtext there. Aren't vampires supposed to get an increase in Charisma? Doesn't really work for Durkon so far... (Though, maybe fake Durkon just had abysmal charisma to begin with)


Always love a good Twilight jab.


I think this is actually referencing True Blood, more then Twilight.

The connection to a vampiric drainer, however, is straight Dracula (Lucy and especially Mina, where she can use this ability as a tracking device against her master.)
True Blood and Twilight are hardly the first vampire stories involving erotic subtext. The idea of vampires as charismatic and seductive is present in Dracula. It's played up in film adaptations of Dracula. It's highly present in Nosferatu. It's part of the modern conception of vampires all right, provided that we use the definition of modern that stretches back almost 120 years - and that's provided that Dracula was sufficiently close to the first, which is far from guaranteed.

[JennTora]

I bet it was a pearl necklace...



It only looks that way to us because we got the reveal that he's really evil. Had it not been for that scene with Hel, we'd still have half the forum saying that Darkon is free-willed and therefore neutral, just like they were when he snapped Z's neck.

As someone who was on the "it's still durkon" side of the big giant ridiculous argument, I can say that I would still be saying "it's still durkon" were it not for the scene with hel.

I agree, It's kind of silly that everyone's like "Roy, can't you see that's not durkon anymore! Look he bit elan on the neck like elan said he could! Look, he defended himself from belkar attacking him when you weren't able to see what they were doing! That proves he's not durkon anymore. Look he has a mean look on his face! He's not durkon!"

I do think roy's faking because of comments like "our cleric is in the shop." But it wouldn't be ooc for him if he weren't. Remember his response to Haley helping the dirt farmers, people?

[Aedilred]

True Blood and Twilight are hardly the first vampire stories involving erotic subtext. The idea of vampires as charismatic and seductive is present in Dracula. It's played up in film adaptations of Dracula. It's highly present in Nosferatu. It's part of the modern conception of vampires all right, provided that we use the definition of modern that stretches back almost 120 years - and that's provided that Dracula was sufficiently close to the first, which is far from guaranteed.

The ur-vampire in the western literary tradition is probably Lord Ruthven, who made his debut a little under 200 years ago. Certainly he was the first really significant literary vampire we would now recognise - and the erotic subtext is definitely there.

Of course, depending on your precise definitions (though in accordance with most of them) the historical Vlad Dracula survived into the (early) modern era anyway.

[ORione]

ladies and gentleman, I give you Roy , 18 and counting Intelligence score. :smallconfused:

Why do you think Roy has 18 Int?

[Ave]

Elan + Durkon + mesmerizing web of erotic subtext = reward? :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

Exactly my thought. He has a working relationship with Haley, why he would want anything from Durkon.

[kenlund]

I tend towards the feeling that Roy is so caught up in guilt that he can't (or won't) see the signs that Durkula is really not just Durkon with fangs. And aside from the decision to destroy the last gate, it is not Roy's usual behavior to seek out Belkar's advice.
From the history of the story and characters, I have been thinking that the Order's best chance could be with the more pragmatic members of the group like Haley and V. I can easily imagine a scenario where Haley and V have prepared a plan to deal with Durkon...just in case. And they would be a good team to do it. Haley relieves Durkula of his staff using her many rouge talents and then V dispells the protection from daylight. Sadly since Belkar is dominated so easily, I just don't see him having a key role stopping Durkula if a fight breaks out.

Of course, there is still hope that Roy's denial hasn't blinded him completely and he is going along with the situation so he has an additional spellcaster until Durkula goes too far..

[LadyEowyn]

Heh, I think I know that Freya story. Definitely wait until after the kids go to bed.

That explanation of Belkar jumping overboard went a lot easier for Durkula than I expected. But I suppose it does make sense for them to draw a connection with his behaviour towards Miko.

(In response to an earlier post - no, Belkar really didn't have any cause for trying to get Miko to kill him, other than that he thought it would be funny to make her Fall. He even said so outright in comic #286.)

[ManuelSacha]

They sh'd haf jest given him True Blood.

[Skull the Troll]

Samesies. Roy is smart; he's going to be slowly putting things together from tiny contextual clues and oddities.

I would think that Roy would notice the enthusiastic *CHOMP* Jerkon gave Elan. As a previous poster said that was really out of character for the real Durkon.

[Darth V.]

Do you think it could be possible for a link really being created ?

I mean, could the oots have some clues of the state of Durkon by repeatedly being drain by the HPoH ?

IIRC being blood drained by a vampire in 3e gives you a big penalty to your will save to resist their domination ability and makes it so a gaze attack is no longer necessary. Letting every member of the party be drained by Durkula is an extremely stupid move.

[Keltest]

I would think that Roy would notice the enthusiastic *CHOMP* Jerkon gave Elan. As a previous poster said that was really out of character for the real Durkon.

I disagree. It would be one thing if he was doing it to interrupt Elan, but Elan didn't seem to think that Durkon went out of his way to cause unnecessary extra pain or anything.

[squirrl811]

Could be way off here, but I think the flashback was an unprompted memory brought on by the start of Elan's song. Something Durkon simply thought of with the music which also popped up in a wavy ballon inside his head for Durkula to see.

To speculate on why it is important to the story...
Pet theory -- I think there is something in the song that might serve as a clue to help Durkon. Perhaps little Durkon never heard the full song as he was sent off to bed, but Elan knows it in full and was about to clue-in Durkon and Roy. Durkula had to be eager to strike simply to cut off the singing.

Of course, I could equally see it as just another glimpse into Durkon's earlier years. And the quick bite mearly because when given permission to feed, Durkula's hunger really shows. I mean -- how gentle can you really be when sucking someone's blood?

[Falbrogna]

I am surprised a bit at how dumb Roy is being.

wow, the denial is strong with this one.

Belkar's plan when he wanted Miko to kill him was to be resurrected by Durkon. It will sure be harder this time if he happens to die. Jumping overboard could have resulted into drowning... And to his end. Forever.



Panel 6: The frost trolls? Really? Not giants?

absolutely

ladies and gentleman, I give you Roy , 18 and counting Intelligence score. :smallconfused:

I'm a bit reassured now knowing that I'm not the only one who felt this stretched :smallsmile:

[A Tad Insane]

How many points did Durkon put into bluff when we weren't looking?

[Adventurer]

I would think that Roy would notice the enthusiastic *CHOMP* Jerkon gave Elan. As a previous poster said that was really out of character for the real Durkon.

Which means nothing because the Order knows that this Durkon isn't the same as he was before he was vamped. Not only do they know that he he is now Evil, they also know he hungers for blood, and they know it had been 24 hours since he last fed. His "enthusiastic" chomp was totally in-character under that prism.

[zimmerwald1915]

IIRC being blood drained by a vampire in 3e gives you a big penalty to your will save to resist their domination ability and makes it so a gaze attack is no longer necessary. Letting every member of the party be drained by Durkula is an extremely stupid move.
Maybe in 3e, I wouldn't know. Fortunately for the Order, however, 3.5 vampires impose no such penalty when they drain blood. A vampire's energy drain would impose negative levels and thus Will save penalties, but even that wouldn't remove the eye contact reqirement from the dominate ability.

[Broken Crown]

I would think that Roy would notice the enthusiastic *CHOMP* Jerkon gave Elan. As a previous poster said that was really out of character for the real Durkon.

It was clever of Durkula, then, to admit to Roy right away that he had undergone some character changes by becoming a vampire. "No more evil than Belkar" is not the same thing as "no different from how Durkon used to be."

I'm sure Roy has noticed at least some of the changes to Durkon's character, and isn't happy about them, but is putting up with them because it seems like the best way of eventually getting the old Durkon back (and not going without a cleric in the meantime). I suspect that Roy is projecting a lot of his own annoyance at the situation on Belkar, whom he knows is not entirely wrong about Durkon, but who isn't exactly helping by fostering intra-party conflict.

Anyway, I liked this episode. The banter between Roy and Elan was especially fun; we haven't seen much of it lately, and it's interesting to see that their relationship has matured to a certain level of mutual understanding.

[Emperordaniel]

Why do you think Roy has 18 Int?

He has one of the best Int scores in the party, behind only Vaarsuvius (as per word of Giant), and as the party wizard, it stands to reason that V would have a very high Int his/herself.

[137beth]

PS: by the way, am I the only to read HPoH and think its a different harry potter book that I haven't read yet? :smallbiggrin:

Larry Gardiner and the Order of Hel.

[Reddish Mage]

I think this is actually referencing True Blood, more then Twilight.

The connection to a vampiric drainer, however, is straight Dracula (Lucy and especially Mina, where she can use this ability as a tracking device against her master.)

If its a reference to True Blood, then Elan isn't too picky about who drinks whose blood, and only has to its advantage that the show is running now. Its straight Dracula. I can't comment about Vampire Diaries, it certainly isn't The Strain.

[Psyren]

He has one of the best Int scores in the party, behind only Vaarsuvius (as per word of Giant), and as the party wizard, it stands to reason that V would have a very high Int his/herself.

That doesn't mean 18 though, especially since he had no reason to increase it any further.

If you're referring to this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html), the meaning is that his combination of mental scores (Int Wis and Cha) is more sumptuous than V's. V has very high Int but low scores in the other two, while Roy is at least above average in all 3 and therefore is a better "meal."

[Aedilred]

He has one of the best Int scores in the party, behind only Vaarsuvius (as per word of Giant), and as the party wizard, it stands to reason that V would have a very high Int his/herself.

V probably has Int 19 or 20, considering he had an 18 Int at the start of the comic. There's probably someone somewhere trying to track it.

But "Vaarsuvius has Intelligence >18" and "Roy has the highest Int after Vaarsuvius" does not mean Roy has 18 Int or even anything close to it. It just means he has a higher Intelligence than the next-cleverest character in the party (most likely Haley, who'd probably have around Int 12/13).

Given that he also has decent scores in at least two (Wisdom, Charisma) and probably four other attributes (Strength, Con) its unlikely his Intelligence score is anything like 18.

[Porthos]

*suddenly has flashbacks to the innumerable "OMG!!! Elan is sooooo dumb! Why is he acting soooo childish around Tarquin! Can't he see how evil he is!1!" posts that came out when Elan was dealing with Tarquin*

No idea why, mind. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

*suddenly has flashbacks to the innumerable "OMG!!! Elan is sooooo dumb! Why is he acting soooo childish around Tarquin! Can't he see how evil he is!1!" posts that came out when Elan was dealing with Tarquin*

No idea why, mind. :smalltongue:
Couldn't tell ya.

(Elan was being dumb, but, he is dumb; that was established in strip #2. The High Priest of Hel is a much better actor than Tarquin.)

[hamishspence]

I thought #2 was more "Elan is childish" with #4 being the first example of "Elan does silly thing and gets party into trouble."

[ManicOppressive]

Has Belkar literally ever lied to Roy about actual party matters?

I'm just curious because I can't remember a single time and Roy constantly acts like it's an expected occurrence. It's actually really frustrating.

[Porthos]

(Elan was being dumb, but, he is dumb; that was established in strip #2. The High Priest of Hel is a much better actor than Tarquin.)

Strangely enuf that is rather part of my point (though I suspect you know that :smallwink:). People at the time were complaining that Elan's sudden reversion to an earlier depiction of his character ran against all of the character devlopment that he underwent in the meantime (or at the very least he should have been genre savvy enough to see the blatantly Evil Overlord/Chancellor). Many people were baffled/frustrated that Elan couldn't see the obvious. Of course many other people maintained, correctly as it turned out, that Elan was suffering from a MASSIVE psychological block when it came to family matters.

As we all know by now, it did in fact take 200 foot letters to get it the point across. :smalltongue:

Here, as other people have noted, the situation is a bit different in that Roy is certainly a lot smarter than Elan. But the fact that there is a/some psychological block(s) at play is the same. In this case, we'll start with denial over just how much Durkon has changed, move on toward his mixed feelings toward Belkar and then cap it off with his whole standard low level of annoyance when the party is being its usual dysfunctional self.

...

Well that and his stubborness. :smalltongue: Once he gets an idea in his head, sometimes it can take quite a bit to dislodge it. Especially if it is reinforced by other longstanding traits.

Honestly, I'd be more surprised if Roy did start to dobut Durkon and believe Captain Cassandra. I suspect it's gonna take a heck of a lot more than some (what he sees as) intraparty hijinks for him to get over his internal blocks regarding this situation.

tl;dr: You can have all the great mental stats in the world. Doesn't mean much at all if you don't/can't apply them. In this case, much like Elan before, Roy has plenty of reasons for acting the way he currently is. Sure, I'd like it if he had a sudden epiphany. But that would be rather unrealistic for the situation as it has devloped, IMO.

tl;dr the tl;dr: It ain't an Idiot Ball (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall) situation if a character has a good reason to act in the way they are.

[runeghost]

ladies and gentleman, I give you Roy , 18 and counting Intelligence score. :smallconfused:

Perhaps he's bluffing? When he discussed Vamp-Durkon with Belkar, he presented a cool-headed analysis. I won't be surprised (but will be pleased) if we eventually get a reveal along the lines of "Yeah, we never bought it (except for Elan), but figured if we played along and let you focus on Belkar, you'd never notice the anti-vampire plan that we implemented before I started giving this speech".

[Porthos]

Perhaps he's bluffing? When he discussed Vamp-Durkon with Belkar, he presented a cool-headed analysis. I won't be surprised (but will be pleased) if we eventually get a reveal along the lines of "Yeah, we never bought it (except for Elan), but figured if we played along and let you focus on Belkar, you'd never notice the anti-vampire plan that we implemented before I started giving this speech".

Now see, I would hate that. Unless it was expertly played, it just doesn't fit the setup we already have.

No, I suspect that Roy is playing this straight. Whatever doubts he has about the situation (and I think it is clear he has some, given his facial expressions at times), he is willfully suppressing for a variety of reasons.

[Keltest]

Now see, I would hate that. Unless it was expertly played, it just doesn't fit the setup we already have.

No, I suspect that Roy is playing this straight. Whatever doubts he has about the situation (and I think it is clear he has some, given his facial expressions at times), he is willfully suppressing for a variety of reasons.

I don't think hes suppressing anything, there just isn't any benefit to coming out and confronting Durkon about it at this time. For all the uncertainty, Roy doesn't actually know that Durkon has done anything worth coming after him for. The rest of the Order seems occupied at the moment to some degree or another, certainly enough that a private team chat without Durkon would be noticed.

[Cerlis]

Always love a good Twilight jab.

oye. People jump on the "i hate twilight" bad wagon so hard they cant identify it when one of the thousand of other stories that romanticize vampirism is being referenced.

[Guancyto]

I honestly can't believe the people who think Roy is being dumb here.

You don't antagonize the vampire to his face. You go off, get Belkar and Vaarsuvius and a Zone of Truth and/or Haley and a Sense Motive, and you get the truth when the horrible undead monster isn't looking. Belkar's never been a good liar, definitely not enough so to successfully lie to Haley.

It's the same as Roy not telling Belkar he's going to die. What good would that do? Make his behavior ten times as erratic for the mere satisfaction of letting him know you're in a superior position?

Roy's not much of a trickster, it's true, but he's gotten a lot more canny over the course of the strip, and the best trickster is the one who lets you believe that you suckered him.

Or as Tarquin said, better to look like a fool than be one.

[e1_conquistador]

"This is like when he tried to get Miko to kill him."

Yes Roy, it is very similar; Belkar was right about her, too.

Boy I hope they have a backup plan. This "place huge amounts of trust in an undead" doesn't sit too well with common sense. Plus you're *torturing* us with the obviousness of it while the OOTS are pretty much being idiots about it. Literally months of clues, and they're clueless. Sigh.

[Cerlis]

It was clever of Durkula, then, to admit to Roy right away that he had undergone some character changes by becoming a vampire. "No more evil than Belkar" is not the same thing as "no different from how Durkon used to be."

I'm sure Roy has noticed at least some of the changes to Durkon's character, and isn't happy about them, but is putting up with them because it seems like the best way of eventually getting the old Durkon back (and not going without a cleric in the meantime). I suspect that Roy is projecting a lot of his own annoyance at the situation on Belkar, whom he knows is not entirely wrong about Durkon, but who isn't exactly helping by fostering intra-party conflict.

Anyway, I liked this episode. The banter between Roy and Elan was especially fun; we haven't seen much of it lately, and it's interesting to see that their relationship has matured to a certain level of mutual understanding.

Indeed. Roy knows they need a divine caster, Durkon's body, and a high level cleric whos location he has no idea.....and knows this vampire is willing to work with them.

Not only are they going to a place they MIGHT be able to raise Durkon, but there might not be one at all and to SAVE THE WORLD they might have to put up with him a while longer.

forcing Durkula's hand right now is a bad idea.

If Roy kicked people out of the "Save the world" club for trying to cause mortal harm to each other then there wouldnt even be a halfling to throw overboard!

this is all just business as usual.

[Porthos]

Literally months of clues, and they're clueless. Sigh.

I'm now curious. What ARE all of these clues that Roy (and the others) should have picked up on?

At most, I see two. The thunderstorm showing Thor's displeasure (which Durkon then handled), and Durkon ordering Belkar overboard and then lying about it which creates a He Said/He Said situation.

Not really seeing WHY Roy is being accused of being an huge idiot here, tbh.

[Cerlis]

Indeed. Roy knows they need a divine caster, Durkon's body, and a high level cleric whos location he has no idea.....and knows this vampire is willing to work with them.

Not only are they going to a place they MIGHT be able to raise Durkon, but there might not be one at all and to SAVE THE WORLD they might have to put up with him a while longer.

forcing Durkula's hand right now is a bad idea.

If Roy kicked people out of the "Save the world" club for trying to cause mortal harm to each other then there wouldnt even be a halfling to throw overboard!

this is all just business as usual.


"This is like when he tried to get Miko to kill him."

Yes Roy, it is very similar; Belkar was right about her, too.

And Roy knew she was a jerk and psycho, too. And Belkar was STILL a sociopathic repeat offender murderer who deserved to be in jail who was willing to get himself killed without thinking it through JUST to stick it to someone he doesnt like.

Roy's comparison is a bullseye.

[Burner28]

I'm now curious. What ARE all of these clues that Roy (and the others) should have picked up on?

At most, I see two. The thunderstorm showing Thor's displeasure (which Durkon then handled), and Durkon ordering Belkar overboard and then lying about it which creates a He Said/He Said situation.

Not really seeing WHY Roy is being accused of being an huge idiot here, tbh.


Well, I just hope Durkula ends up being busted soon.

[Keltest]

"This is like when he tried to get Miko to kill him."

Yes Roy, it is very similar; Belkar was right about her, too.

Boy I hope they have a backup plan. This "place huge amounts of trust in an undead" doesn't sit too well with common sense. Plus you're *torturing* us with the obviousness of it while the OOTS are pretty much being idiots about it. Literally months of clues, and they're clueless. Sigh.

Belkar didn't have a stance to be right or wrong about with Miko. He just wanted to torment her in the greatest possible way, which for her would be goading her into breaking her paladin's code.

[xyzchyx]

You go off, get Belkar and Vaarsuvius and a Zone of Truth and/or Haley and a Sense Motive, and you get the truth when the horrible undead monster isn't looking. Belkar's never been a good liar, definitely not enough so to successfully lie to Haley.This. Seriously... the idea that Belkar would try and pull what he did with Miko doesn't fly as well this time because the last time it nearly happened, he learned that the party doesn't necessarily have the material components to pull it off... and flying a few hundred feet over an ocean, they are even less likely to have such resources on hand. Belkar may not be the brightest bulb on the tree, but it is evident that he is capable of learning from the past, and changing his behavior accordingly. The Order should have both the time and the means to get to the bottom of Belkar's accusations, and I think I'd be somewhat disappointed if they didn't at least try.

Such a turn of events, however, could easily make for a much shorter and much less amusing story... so hey, what do I know?

[Porthos]

In regards to this immediate situation, let's not forget to see things AS ROY SAW THEM.

He first sees Belkar flip out over the storm. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0953.html)

Then he sees Belkar try to attack Durkon while he is casting Control Weather. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html)

Then he sees Belkar try to complain that he shouldn't be listened to about this being a test of Durkon's loyalties/abilities. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0955.html)

Then the very next thing he hears about is Belkar jumping overboard (today's strip).

Given Belkar's reaction in the three strips I linked to previously, why exactly should he immediately doubt Durkon? Especially considering that Roy had to hold back Belkar from attacking Durkon?

Roy doesn't have the benefit of Third Person Omniscient Narration here. He had to make a quick call, and he choose poorly. Unfortunately for him. But I think it is rather understandable, especially considering the last few things he saw.

---

The real problem here is, the one person who doubts Durkon the most:

A) Has poor impulse control.
B) Has a reputation for being a bad teammate.
C) Doesn't exactly have the greatest persuasion skills in the world.
D) Did I mention he has poor impulse control? Just checking. :smalltongue:

If it was almost anyone else in the party, this might be playing out differently. As it is, Belkar is the worst person possible to be the one who doubts Durkon's character/loyalty. Or best, from the perspective of the HPoH. :smallamused:

[Kish]

"This is like when he tried to get Miko to kill him."

Yes Roy, it is very similar; Belkar was right about her, too.
That she was a paladin, and therefore it would be fun to make her fall?

'Cause ya know, that, and nothing more, was what motivated Belkar's plan to make her fall.

[e1_conquistador]

I'm now curious. What ARE all of these clues that Roy (and the others) should have picked up on? At most, I see two.

-Overly vigorous biting
-Mentioning that he killed Zz'dtri

I'd also suggest summoning devils and vampires being CE in the monster manual ("common parlance") as candidates.

Granted, it hasn't been "months" for OOTS, but it has been for us. My point is that MONTHS of plotline devoted to how sketchy this character is, and the protagonists seeming clueless IS torture. It's like any other plot device that centers around the main characters being stupid: frustrating.

[Porthos]

-Overly vigorous biting
-Mentioning that he killed Zz'dtri

I'd also suggest summoning devils and vampires being CE in the monster manual ("common parlance") as candidates.

Pretty thin gruel, IMO. Especially since Durkon has already admitted to being evil.


Granted, it hasn't been "months" for OOTS, but it has been for us. My point is that MONTHS of plotline devoted to how sketchy this character is, and the protagonists seeming clueless IS torture. It's like any other plot device that centers around the main characters being stupid: frustrating.

Just remember how long it took for the Elan/Tarquin thing to shake out. I figure you got months and months of this (if not a year or more) to look forward to. :smalltongue: All part and parcel of the webcomic experience, I'm afraid.

(NOTE: I disagree with the charge that the main characters are being stupid, but I've already addressed that bit enough so I won't repeat myself)

[pendell]

Besides which, summoning devils is lawful evil in D&D.

I suspect that, besides his friendship, Roy believes that Durkon was LAWFUL good when he was alive and is probably Capital-LAWFUL lowercase evil now. He expects the lawful side of Durkon's personality to predominate over the rest, regardless of good or evil.

And that would be a reasonable expectation ... if it really was Durkon in charge, and not some monster piloting his body who , for all we know, isn't any more lawful than he is good.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Psyren]

The one clue I will say Roy should have picked up on is that there was a storm from Thor waiting for them in the first place. The fact that Darkon could calm it isn't actually relevant.

[Porthos]

The one clue I will say Roy should have picked up on is that there was a storm from Thor waiting for them in the first place. The fact that Darkon could calm it isn't actually relevant.

This is the one I'm most sympathetic with. OTOH, I don't believe Durkon has actually claimed that he is still worshipping Thor. He might be allowing Roy to think that. But, then again, I suspect Roy's Knowledge: Religion is pretty much just an Int check for him.

And if Belkar had worded his objection in an ever so slightly different manner (doesn't this storm show that Thor is pissed off with Durkon, even if he was able to send it away) then Roy might have started to think along those lines.

Sadly, as I said, "poor impulse control" and "lack of persuasion skills".

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think Porthos has said just about everything I wanted to say here. Sort of like a ninja, but against a really slow opponent. :smalltongue:

I think it is understandable for Roy to be holding his current belief. Who knows, if The Reveal hadn't occured, I might be agreeing with him.

I'm not sure what was up with the music, other than more character development (which I enjoyed). I'm sure it has a rational explanation.

I think that the High Priest of Hel's lie made sense, as well.

I disagree with Elan, I think that this vampire is quite interesting, but for reasons he wouldn't know.

[blunk]

I confess that I find most of the humor in OOTS more obligatory than funny (it's cool, I'm in the minority), but I giggled at Elan naively trying to class up the joint and Durkon going all Nosferatu on him. :smallbiggrin:

[Reddish Mage]

oye. People jump on the "i hate twilight" bad wagon so hard they cant identify it when one of the thousand of other stories that romanticize vampirism is being referenced.

Actually I think we established above that Elan's characterization fits best with Dracula-types, which doesn't necessarily romanticize vampires, but there is still a clear erotic subtext.

Yes, the sparkly vampires Elan does not reference here.

[Amphiox]

I would note that, at the beginning, right before the big fight with Tarquin's army, Roy WAS, quite clearly, suspicious of HPoH, if one goes by his facial expressions, and that the HPoH subsequently convinced him otherwise.

This probably makes it doubly harder for Roy to suspect anything now. It would mean admitting that he made a judgment contrary to his own initial instincts that was wrong. And a high INT score might actually IMPEDE such an admission, as a high intelligence means a greater capacity to self-justify something one wants to believe (or doesn't want to believe) for emotional reasons.

Getting past that requires high WIS, or maybe even high CHA. (It seems rather hazy where emotional intelligence fits into the D&D stats...)

Though Roy, canonically, is supposed to have decent stats in all 3....

[Mathalor]

I suspect that, besides his friendship, Roy believes that Durkon was LAWFUL good when he was alive and is probably Capital-LAWFUL lowercase evil now. He expects the lawful side of Durkon's personality to predominate over the rest, regardless of good or evil.


Roy hasn't talked with Durkon about his 'new perspective,' beyond asking if he's evil now. No one has. Perhaps they're making assumptions. Perhaps not. Perhaps different people are making different assumptions. But no one's talked to him. There is no definition yet of what he's masquerading as. While Belkar gets points for being right about him not being Durkon, his evidence isn't something that I think would convince anyone besides himself. It basically boils down to, your personality changed too quickly, while ignoring that that had to happen with an immediate alignment change anyway. Without everyone too self absorbed, oblivious, lazy or in denial to bother to get an explanation of his new self from Durkon, no one will ever catch him in a lie, or hold him to any definite standard. Belkar's logic seems more and more like, 'Fox Muldur' logic, where he knows how it is and twists reason and ideas justify himself.

[SavageWombat]

Loved the Freya joke. I wonder if someone needs to explain it to the rest of the forum...

[Amphiox]

That doesn't mean 18 though, especially since he had no reason to increase it any further.

If you're referring to this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html), the meaning is that his combination of mental scores (Int Wis and Cha) is more sumptuous than V's. V has very high Int but low scores in the other two, while Roy is at least above average in all 3 and therefore is a better "meal."

We know Roy has a high enough INT that being a wizard was a viable class choice for him in his youth. (And a high enough WIS that being a cleric would also have been a viable choice for him as well). But I think that only means a range of something like 14-18 to start (with as mentioned above, no reason to increase it further afterwards)

To have 18 INT, WIS in the 14-18 range, CHA high enough to be a party leader, AND STR and CON high enough to be an effective fighter (plus a DEX that can't be so low as to give him significant penalties, or else there surely would have been a joke about it by now) would have meant that Roy would have had to roll like a god on his character creation....

[blunk]

What was the purpose of this strip ?To recap the "drain and restore" trick for "this is my first book" readers? To present more evidence to the OOTS of Durkon's true nature? To present more information to the reader about Durkon's past? To entertain the reader?

What's the purpose of any strip?

What's the purpose of anything?

[ORione]

That she was a paladin, and therefore it would be fun to make her fall?

'Cause ya know, that, and nothing more, was what motivated Belkar's plan to make her fall.

If that were true, then why didn't Belkar try to make Hinjo or any of the other paladins fall? I'm pretty sure that Miko being a jerk factored into it at least a bit.

[Keltest]

If that were true, then why didn't Belkar try to make Hinjo or any of the other paladins fall? I'm pretty sure that Miko being a jerk factored into it at least a bit.

Because Hinjo didn't beat the stuffing out of him? Because Hinjo is smarter than that? Because then Shojo would get mad at him and he would face the wrath of Mr Scruffy?

[Reddish Mage]

Roy hasn't talked with Durkon about his 'new perspective,' beyond asking if he's evil now. No one has. Perhaps they're making assumptions. Perhaps not. Perhaps different people are making different assumptions. But no one's talked to him. There is no definition yet of what he's masquerading as. While Belkar gets points for being right about him not being Durkon, his evidence isn't something that I think would convince anyone besides himself. It basically boils down to, your personality changed too quickly, while ignoring that that had to happen with an immediate alignment change anyway. Without everyone too self absorbed, oblivious, lazy or in denial to bother to get an explanation of his new self from Durkon, no one will ever catch him in a lie, or hold him to any definite standard. Belkar's logic seems more and more like, 'Fox Muldur' logic, where he knows how it is and twists reason and ideas justify himself.

That idea the HPOH himself gave is that Lawful-Evil-Durkon still wants a world to exist for him to do whatever lawful evil things he now wants to do. Beyond no one wants to talk about or acknowledge what it means that Durkon is evil now, and they conveniently have Belkar as a precedent for including evil members into the party.

Now a strange evil spirit following its own secret agenda inhabiting Durkon's body...that's something that's a little harder to ignore.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Re: Why doesn't Roy figure it out?

Whoever this is, he remembers what Durkon remembers, fights for the Order, heals the Order, and wants to help save the world.- Jay R

Even if we accept the argument that durkula is not durkon, which I do not, still he is a powerful caster that got his powers further buffed by becoming a vampire, and he's willing to help oots to fight xykon because, even if he had become evil, he still would not want to be ruled by xykon or to die by accidental snarl release.
Staking and resurrecting him would only ensures that he loses his vampire power. and a level, since rich stated that no one in oots will have access to true resurrection. Sabotaging your war assets before a fight that will decide the fate of the world don't seem such a smart choice.
The oots can worry about durkon after they saved the world. If there will still be a world after that.-King of Nowhere

So, for the people advocating killing vampire durkon against his will (before he does anything really evil), would you be okay with being killed in order to save another (equally important) person?-137ben

"So far, there is no justification at all for attempting to stake or destroy "Durkula". It would be wrong on several symultaneous levels.

There is certainly a real danger that he might turn against the Order at some point. But we do not know that he will,

...

His behavior offers no evidence whatsoever that he has become evil, either. The closest one gets is that he was vindictive against Z and Nale. We have seen far worse from Haley (when she killed Cristal - although only Elan among the OOtS knows of that), Vaarsuvius and even Elan, to say nothing of Belkar himself, yet no one is considering slaying them.

It would not even make tactical sense at this point. As Durkon himself pointed out quite properly in #908, he has as legitimate an interest at avoiding the end of the world as anyone else, and he is a powerful caster willing to work with the Order.

Be wary of his vampiric nature, sure. Attempt to find out how much of him is still Durkon, no doubt. Seek the opportunity to ressurrect him, of course. But to simply assume that Vampires Are Always Evil against all the evidence is just unwise."-LuisDantas

I just don't see why you rule out that Durkon might have changed his mind after getting first-hand experience with the subject matter.

People become "not themselves" all the time; the idea of a fixed, constant personality is misleading at best, and we have too little to go on to decide how similar post-vampirization, post-freedom from Malack Durkon is to living Durkon.

I won't discuss whether there are souls in the OOtS universe, nor what happened to them if they do. But certainly changing one's opinion on a particular matter is not quite enough to prove that a soul has been switched, corrupted or expelled from a body.

Is Durkon demanded to be in perpetual shame and sorrow for being a vampire and express it before people can acknowledge any possibility of he still being fundamentally the same person?

Going by those parameters, I must assume hardly any of the Order characters are still the same people we met back in #1.-Luis Dantas

Re: "Hopefully at some point in the next book the Order gets a Stake-And-Resurrect on Durkula." Why so? What has he done to warrant it? Stopped breathing?-Komatik

Suppose the order asks Durkon if he wants to be staked and resurrected.

A: Durkon says no. Aha, obvious confirmation that it's not really Durkon and he's a heartless, evil abomination!

B: Durkon says yes. It's just a lie, and he'll turn on the order as soon as he gets the chance because he's a heartless, evil abomination!

There's literally nothing he could do in the strip to make people come around. Given what I've read and thought of the Giant on morality, bigotry, and intelligent monsters, I'm pretty sure Belkar is just laying down loads schmuck bait. Lots of people are going to be set up for a massive guilt trip, but I hope that teaches them something.-WindStruck

Windstruck, Yeah, I'm coming to that conclusion too. People literally go against Word of Giant put in their faces if it fits their pre-existing biases.-Komatik

Arguments from before the reveal.

[zinycor]

NihhusHuotAliro those are very good points, but regardless of that i hope that durkon gets free, and am pretty sure that the plot will get to that point

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Re: Why doesn't Roy figure it out?

Whoever this is, he remembers what Durkon remembers, fights for the Order, heals the Order, and wants to help save the world.- Jay R

Even if we accept the argument that durkula is not durkon, which I do not, still he is a powerful caster that got his powers further buffed by becoming a vampire, and he's willing to help oots to fight xykon because, even if he had become evil, he still would not want to be ruled by xykon or to die by accidental snarl release.
Staking and resurrecting him would only ensures that he loses his vampire power. and a level, since rich stated that no one in oots will have access to true resurrection. Sabotaging your war assets before a fight that will decide the fate of the world don't seem such a smart choice.
The oots can worry about durkon after they saved the world. If there will still be a world after that.-King of Nowhere

So, for the people advocating killing vampire durkon against his will (before he does anything really evil), would you be okay with being killed in order to save another (equally important) person?-137ben

"So far, there is no justification at all for attempting to stake or destroy "Durkula". It would be wrong on several symultaneous levels.

There is certainly a real danger that he might turn against the Order at some point. But we do not know that he will,

...

His behavior offers no evidence whatsoever that he has become evil, either. The closest one gets is that he was vindictive against Z and Nale. We have seen far worse from Haley (when she killed Cristal - although only Elan among the OOtS knows of that), Vaarsuvius and even Elan, to say nothing of Belkar himself, yet no one is considering slaying them.

It would not even make tactical sense at this point. As Durkon himself pointed out quite properly in #908, he has as legitimate an interest at avoiding the end of the world as anyone else, and he is a powerful caster willing to work with the Order.

Be wary of his vampiric nature, sure. Attempt to find out how much of him is still Durkon, no doubt. Seek the opportunity to ressurrect him, of course. But to simply assume that Vampires Are Always Evil against all the evidence is just unwise."-LuisDantas

I just don't see why you rule out that Durkon might have changed his mind after getting first-hand experience with the subject matter.

People become "not themselves" all the time; the idea of a fixed, constant personality is misleading at best, and we have too little to go on to decide how similar post-vampirization, post-freedom from Malack Durkon is to living Durkon.

I won't discuss whether there are souls in the OOtS universe, nor what happened to them if they do. But certainly changing one's opinion on a particular matter is not quite enough to prove that a soul has been switched, corrupted or expelled from a body.

Is Durkon demanded to be in perpetual shame and sorrow for being a vampire and express it before people can acknowledge any possibility of he still being fundamentally the same person?

Going by those parameters, I must assume hardly any of the Order characters are still the same people we met back in #1.-Luis Dantas

Re: "Hopefully at some point in the next book the Order gets a Stake-And-Resurrect on Durkula." Why so? What has he done to warrant it? Stopped breathing?-Komatik

Suppose the order asks Durkon if he wants to be staked and resurrected.

A: Durkon says no. Aha, obvious confirmation that it's not really Durkon and he's a heartless, evil abomination!

B: Durkon says yes. It's just a lie, and he'll turn on the order as soon as he gets the chance because he's a heartless, evil abomination!

There's literally nothing he could do in the strip to make people come around. Given what I've read and thought of the Giant on morality, bigotry, and intelligent monsters, I'm pretty sure Belkar is just laying down loads schmuck bait. Lots of people are going to be set up for a massive guilt trip, but I hope that teaches them something.-WindStruck

Windstruck, Yeah, I'm coming to that conclusion too. People literally go against Word of Giant put in their faces if it fits their pre-existing biases.-Komatik

Arguments from before the reveal.

Thanks for putting that little collection together. Some of those arguments probably could be updated a little, now that nearly five months have passed, but they still make sense.

[Link]

I wonder if we'll keep getting panels of Durkon's memory to shoe how far Durkula is into the memory-absorption process. If HPOH is watching them from childhood to adulthood, we'll see changes in Durkon's age as he gets closer to the present.

[Skull the Troll]

It was clever of Durkula, then, to admit to Roy right away that he had undergone some character changes by becoming a vampire. "No more evil than Belkar" is not the same thing as "no different from how Durkon used to be."

I'm sure Roy has noticed at least some of the changes to Durkon's character, and isn't happy about them, but is putting up with them because it seems like the best way of eventually getting the old Durkon back (and not going without a cleric in the meantime). I suspect that Roy is projecting a lot of his own annoyance at the situation on Belkar, whom he knows is not entirely wrong about Durkon, but who isn't exactly helping by fostering intra-party conflict.

Anyway, I liked this episode. The banter between Roy and Elan was especially fun; we haven't seen much of it lately, and it's interesting to see that their relationship has matured to a certain level of mutual understanding.

It's a fair point, but I still think too much of that sort of thing and Roy is going to start to wonder how much he can trust the new version of his old freind. The Durkon hit him with the negative energy heal, and then was abashed about it he seemed much more like the "changed but still Durkon" role that he is trying to portray. If he starts getting to be too enthusiastic about feeding or other things that aren't immediately life and death Roy (and more likely Haley) will get suspicious I think.

[Link]

It's a fair point, but I still think too much of that sort of thing and Roy is going to start to wonder how much he can trust the new version of his old freind. The Durkon hit him with the negative energy heal, and then was abashed about it he seemed much more like the "changed but still Durkon" role that he is trying to portray. If he starts getting to be too enthusiastic about feeding or other things that aren't immediately life and death Roy (and more likely Haley) will get suspicious I think.

Or possibly Varsuvvius, as he/she refers to Durkula as the "former Master Thundershield."

[Gusion]

Does Evil-Durkon's statements in this strip imply he is also non-lawful in addition to being evil?

[ORione]

Because Hinjo didn't beat the stuffing out of him? Because Hinjo is smarter than that? Because then Shojo would get mad at him and he would face the wrath of Mr Scruffy?

Yes... That's my point. Miko beating him up was at least part of why Belkar wanted her to fall.

[Finagle]

Haha, great! Yaknow, I had sort of forgotten that OOTS existed! Until it showed up on my RSS feed today. I've pretty much stopped loading the site all the time - not much reason to do so these days. I had to go back a couple strips and read just to catch up again, I couldn't remember the thread of the plot. Kinda sad that the author has to explicitly refute other style vampires, otherwise the fans will just assume that all vampires in every story, everywhere are like that. Echh. Whatever happened to Bram Stoker? Sigh.

[Keltest]

Yes... That's my point. Miko beating him up was at least part of why Belkar wanted her to fall.

While true, im not sure how its relevant. Youre comparing a general goal (to make Miko fall) with trying to convince someone of something. You cannot be "correct" about a goal, you just have it. He was not trying to make a point with Miko, just antagonize her.


Edit: Ill grant that "nothing more" was technically incorrect, but Belkar was no more trying to make a point then than he was trying to court Roy when he was changed into a woman.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Does Evil-Durkon's statements in this strip imply he is also non-lawful in addition to being evil?

I don't see how they would. What statements are you thinking in specific?

[Link]

While true, im not sure how its relevant. Youre comparing a general goal (to make Miko fall) with trying to convince someone of something. You cannot be "correct" about a goal, you just have it. He was not trying to make a point with Miko, just antagonize her.


Edit: Ill grant that "nothing more" was technically incorrect, but Belkar was no more trying to make a point then than he was trying to court Roy when he was changed into a woman.

So he was pretending he was trying to make a point?

[DaggerPen]

Re: Why doesn't Roy figure it out?

Whoever this is, he remembers what Durkon remembers, fights for the Order, heals the Order, and wants to help save the world.- Jay R

Even if we accept the argument that durkula is not durkon, which I do not, still he is a powerful caster that got his powers further buffed by becoming a vampire, and he's willing to help oots to fight xykon because, even if he had become evil, he still would not want to be ruled by xykon or to die by accidental snarl release.
Staking and resurrecting him would only ensures that he loses his vampire power. and a level, since rich stated that no one in oots will have access to true resurrection. Sabotaging your war assets before a fight that will decide the fate of the world don't seem such a smart choice.
The oots can worry about durkon after they saved the world. If there will still be a world after that.-King of Nowhere

So, for the people advocating killing vampire durkon against his will (before he does anything really evil), would you be okay with being killed in order to save another (equally important) person?-137ben

"So far, there is no justification at all for attempting to stake or destroy "Durkula". It would be wrong on several symultaneous levels.

There is certainly a real danger that he might turn against the Order at some point. But we do not know that he will,

...

His behavior offers no evidence whatsoever that he has become evil, either. The closest one gets is that he was vindictive against Z and Nale. We have seen far worse from Haley (when she killed Cristal - although only Elan among the OOtS knows of that), Vaarsuvius and even Elan, to say nothing of Belkar himself, yet no one is considering slaying them.

It would not even make tactical sense at this point. As Durkon himself pointed out quite properly in #908, he has as legitimate an interest at avoiding the end of the world as anyone else, and he is a powerful caster willing to work with the Order.

Be wary of his vampiric nature, sure. Attempt to find out how much of him is still Durkon, no doubt. Seek the opportunity to ressurrect him, of course. But to simply assume that Vampires Are Always Evil against all the evidence is just unwise."-LuisDantas

I just don't see why you rule out that Durkon might have changed his mind after getting first-hand experience with the subject matter.

People become "not themselves" all the time; the idea of a fixed, constant personality is misleading at best, and we have too little to go on to decide how similar post-vampirization, post-freedom from Malack Durkon is to living Durkon.

I won't discuss whether there are souls in the OOtS universe, nor what happened to them if they do. But certainly changing one's opinion on a particular matter is not quite enough to prove that a soul has been switched, corrupted or expelled from a body.

Is Durkon demanded to be in perpetual shame and sorrow for being a vampire and express it before people can acknowledge any possibility of he still being fundamentally the same person?

Going by those parameters, I must assume hardly any of the Order characters are still the same people we met back in #1.-Luis Dantas

Re: "Hopefully at some point in the next book the Order gets a Stake-And-Resurrect on Durkula." Why so? What has he done to warrant it? Stopped breathing?-Komatik

Suppose the order asks Durkon if he wants to be staked and resurrected.

A: Durkon says no. Aha, obvious confirmation that it's not really Durkon and he's a heartless, evil abomination!

B: Durkon says yes. It's just a lie, and he'll turn on the order as soon as he gets the chance because he's a heartless, evil abomination!

There's literally nothing he could do in the strip to make people come around. Given what I've read and thought of the Giant on morality, bigotry, and intelligent monsters, I'm pretty sure Belkar is just laying down loads schmuck bait. Lots of people are going to be set up for a massive guilt trip, but I hope that teaches them something.-WindStruck

Windstruck, Yeah, I'm coming to that conclusion too. People literally go against Word of Giant put in their faces if it fits their pre-existing biases.-Komatik

Arguments from before the reveal.

... yeah, can't argue with that one, speaking as a former ardent "of course it's still Durkon, guys" proponent. Though I don't think Roy is particularly obtuse here, especially given that he really wants to believe his best friend is as fine as he can be like this.

Anyway, loved this strip. The memory cutaway is a bit odd, but I'm guessing the significance will be explained shortly.

And as for the comments about this book opening being slow - literally the exact same comments we had last book opening. Rereading it now, it just flies by before you can blink. I think we're all just a bit too used to the breakneck pace we had at the climax of the last book. Call me if we're still dragging in 10 strips and we'll talk about overly slow openings.

[ORione]

While true, im not sure how its relevant. Youre comparing a general goal (to make Miko fall) with trying to convince someone of something. You cannot be "correct" about a goal, you just have it. He was not trying to make a point with Miko, just antagonize her.

I was disagreeing with Kish on Belkar's motivations. I wasn't agreeing with who he was disagreeing with. I wasn't comparing the two situations, just arguing against Kish's claim.



Edit: Ill grant that "nothing more" was technically incorrect, but Belkar was no more trying to make a point then than he was trying to court Roy when he was changed into a woman.

Sounds good.

[Psyren]

Re: Why doesn't Roy figure it out?

Whoever this is, he remembers what Durkon remembers, fights for the Order, heals the Order, and wants to help save the world.- Jay R

Even if we accept the argument that durkula is not durkon, which I do not, still he is a powerful caster that got his powers further buffed by becoming a vampire, and he's willing to help oots to fight xykon because, even if he had become evil, he still would not want to be ruled by xykon or to die by accidental snarl release.
Staking and resurrecting him would only ensures that he loses his vampire power. and a level, since rich stated that no one in oots will have access to true resurrection. Sabotaging your war assets before a fight that will decide the fate of the world don't seem such a smart choice.
The oots can worry about durkon after they saved the world. If there will still be a world after that.-King of Nowhere

So, for the people advocating killing vampire durkon against his will (before he does anything really evil), would you be okay with being killed in order to save another (equally important) person?-137ben

"So far, there is no justification at all for attempting to stake or destroy "Durkula". It would be wrong on several symultaneous levels.

There is certainly a real danger that he might turn against the Order at some point. But we do not know that he will,

...

His behavior offers no evidence whatsoever that he has become evil, either. The closest one gets is that he was vindictive against Z and Nale. We have seen far worse from Haley (when she killed Cristal - although only Elan among the OOtS knows of that), Vaarsuvius and even Elan, to say nothing of Belkar himself, yet no one is considering slaying them.

It would not even make tactical sense at this point. As Durkon himself pointed out quite properly in #908, he has as legitimate an interest at avoiding the end of the world as anyone else, and he is a powerful caster willing to work with the Order.

Be wary of his vampiric nature, sure. Attempt to find out how much of him is still Durkon, no doubt. Seek the opportunity to ressurrect him, of course. But to simply assume that Vampires Are Always Evil against all the evidence is just unwise."-LuisDantas

I just don't see why you rule out that Durkon might have changed his mind after getting first-hand experience with the subject matter.

People become "not themselves" all the time; the idea of a fixed, constant personality is misleading at best, and we have too little to go on to decide how similar post-vampirization, post-freedom from Malack Durkon is to living Durkon.

I won't discuss whether there are souls in the OOtS universe, nor what happened to them if they do. But certainly changing one's opinion on a particular matter is not quite enough to prove that a soul has been switched, corrupted or expelled from a body.

Is Durkon demanded to be in perpetual shame and sorrow for being a vampire and express it before people can acknowledge any possibility of he still being fundamentally the same person?

Going by those parameters, I must assume hardly any of the Order characters are still the same people we met back in #1.-Luis Dantas

Re: "Hopefully at some point in the next book the Order gets a Stake-And-Resurrect on Durkula." Why so? What has he done to warrant it? Stopped breathing?-Komatik

Suppose the order asks Durkon if he wants to be staked and resurrected.

A: Durkon says no. Aha, obvious confirmation that it's not really Durkon and he's a heartless, evil abomination!

B: Durkon says yes. It's just a lie, and he'll turn on the order as soon as he gets the chance because he's a heartless, evil abomination!

There's literally nothing he could do in the strip to make people come around. Given what I've read and thought of the Giant on morality, bigotry, and intelligent monsters, I'm pretty sure Belkar is just laying down loads schmuck bait. Lots of people are going to be set up for a massive guilt trip, but I hope that teaches them something.-WindStruck

Windstruck, Yeah, I'm coming to that conclusion too. People literally go against Word of Giant put in their faces if it fits their pre-existing biases.-Komatik

Arguments from before the reveal.

Oh man, this was positively beautiful to read. Kudos for the compilation :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

I suspect that, besides his friendship, Roy believes that Durkon was LAWFUL good when he was alive and is probably Capital-LAWFUL lowercase evil now. He expects the lawful side of Durkon's personality to predominate over the rest, regardless of good or evil.
It might well be true of the High Priest of Hel, even.

Unfortunately for Roy, he never paid enough attention to Durkon's religious beliefs to realize what it would mean for him and for the world, if someone like Durkon was as devoted to an evil god as Durkon was to a good one.

[ti'esar]

I got a big kick out of the third panel.

[Codex]

Sheesh. This arc really hates Belkar doesn't it? Granted he deserves all of it, but still.

[Nenec]

Every time people say "I can't believe Roy is being this clueless/dumb/unobservant," I just think of their little side trip to Cliffport and "Wizard Guy." Roy has been pretty good at not noticing/caring about things if they're not about him throughout the story, in my opinion.
Mh yeah, unlike most people I neve really considered Roy as smart. He kinda has blinkers and fails at seeing some things because they're not part of his general vision of life. A bit of Miko there.
And in fact I predicted it would go this way.

But..nonono please, don't make me imagine romance between Elan and Durkula <.< He's really read too much from Stoker.

[Niknokitueu]

Liked the comic, Rich.

Nice to see yet another example of Belkar's past actions coming back to haunt him. I actually feel sorry for Belkar at this point - he is doing his best to act a team player, while his erstwhile 'allies' think he has not changed at all, hence disregarding important clues as to what is happening.

Even better, Belkar lacks the wisdom to realise he is becoming his mask...

I think I can see a 'I told you so' moment coming up, quite possibly posthumously :smallbiggrin

Again, nice writing Rich.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[LuisDantas]

Also you'd think the vampire's eagerness would alert Roy, now that he's seeing it. I mean, if it really were Durkon in there he'd be a lot more careful and try harder to make it less painful. He'd probably apologize a lot too.

True. And you also would expect Roy to be a lot more careful in taking the vampire's word in the early panels of this strip.

Come to think of it, though... it would be most unwise of Roy to make his suspicions apparent right then and there. Better to go along until he can formulate a plan to deal with the vampire.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Sheesh. This arc really hates Belkar doesn't it? Granted he deserves all of it, but still.

That's an interesting point. This arc may be a bit of cosmic retribution for Belkar's previous actions.

[maxon]

Be grateful Elan. At least he doesn't sparkle.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Reminds me, I need to buy a couple more Turn Undead t-shirts for friends. To CafePress I go!

[Stella]

ladies and gentleman, I give you Roy , 18 and counting Intelligence score. :smallconfused:
Sense Motive is based on Wisdom, not Intelligence. Roy has enough Wisdom to be a decent Cleric, but it's not an 18.

Bluff is based on Charisma, and a Vampire not only gains a +4 to CHA but a straight up +8 to Bluff.

Neither skill is a class skill for either Roy or Durkon, so both skills will be low or zero aside from stat and other modifiers. The upshot is that Durkula can Bluff Roy all day long, it would take a very lopsided roll for Roy to catch on.



Most likely Rich was referring to the rules for Vampire: The Masquerade, where drinking from vampires creates Ghouls (mortals temporarily empowered by vampiric blood) and the Blood Bond (creating a fanatical sense of semi-romantic loyalty to the vamp in question).
I was thinking more along the lines of the Ann Rice vampires, where the sexual subtext is thick enough to cut with a dull spoon.

[jidasfire]

As regards Roy not seeing through Durkula's ruse, there are all sorts of reasons, but the main one, I think, is pretty consistent with Roy's personality: to all appearances, Durkula is loyal. He could have easily aided the Linear Guild in killing the Order, or, failing that, he could have simply left them to die at the hands of Tarquin's army and the Vector Legion, mist-bodying away when the fight became too perilous for him. For all that, however, he did not do those things, staying even when his own unlife was put in danger. Given that Roy values loyalty and standing by one's comrades above all else, this probably puts in his mind that Durkula is in fact still his best friend and not some monster in his place. The only person who doesn't believe it's Durkon is the guy who is constantly at odds with the rest of the team, who is known for being a violent jerk and liar who's not all that bright, which probably further cements it in Roy's head that he is right and Belkar is wrong.

And really, let's not forget that up until the big reveal at the end of last book, Durkula had a huge portion of the fanbase fooled, and even those he didn't had no clue what was really going on. So I find claims that it's "so obvious" he's not Durkon to be highly dubious.

[Peelee]

Oh man, this was positively beautiful to read. Kudos for the compilation :smallbiggrin:

Samesies.

I honestly don't understand how it makes more sense for some people that Roy has suddenly gone stupid and willfully ignorant than that he is being cautious and analyzing privately a very murky situation.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I was thinking more along the lines of the Ann Rice vampires, where the sexual subtext is thick enough to cut with a dull spoon.

That doesn't sound like subtext anymore, in that case.

[Narren]

So the necklace joke went straight over my head. Can anyone explain?

[Keltest]

So the necklace joke went straight over my head. Can anyone explain?

Its implied that its a very dirty story that you wouldn't tell in front of kids. I don't know if its a real story or not, but it would not surprise me what with it being the norse pantheon and all.

[blunk]

Whatever happened to Bram Stoker?I'm fairly certain he died. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


So the necklace joke went straight over my head. Can anyone explain?There was a link to the explanation in the first page or two of comments. I won't go look for it, but: "four dwarves made a necklace, Freyja wanted it, dwarves insisted that she diddle each of them first, she did, Odin, Loki, yadda yadda yadda, men destined to rip each other to pieces, the end".

I may have missed some parts. So to speak.

[Keltest]

I'm fairly certain he died. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Stoker is quite obviously a Vampire. He goes around mind controlling authors who use silly combinations of people's names with Dracula whenever they have a vampire in the story.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Ann Rice does not put sexual subtext in her vampire stories. It's just text.

[blunk]

Stoker is quite obviously a Vampire. He goes around mind controlling authors who use silly combinations of people's names with Dracula whenever they have a vampire in the story.*tosses manuscript for Blunkula's Thirst in wastebasket with a half-suppressed sob*

[Porthos]

So the necklace joke went straight over my head. Can anyone explain?


Its implied that its a very dirty story that you wouldn't tell in front of kids. I don't know if its a real story or not, but it would not surprise me what with it being the norse pantheon and all.


There was a link to the explanation in the first page or two of comments. I won't go look for it, but: "four dwarves made a necklace, Freyja wanted it, dwarves insisted that she diddle each of them first, she did, Odin, Loki, yadda yadda yadda, men destined to rip each other to pieces, the end".

I may have missed some parts. So to speak.

Here it is in all of its (Very) Old School Mythology glory: :smallsmile:


I assume this is what's meant: Freyja (http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/mythology/myths/text/freyja.htm)

[Psyren]

Basically Freya got around. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0734.html)

[the_tick_rules]

So there is no vampire the masquerade in OOTS?

[Porthos]

So there is no vampire the masquerade in OOTS?

Hey, getting all of those d10s can be a bit of a chore. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) :smalltongue:

[ti'esar]

Most likely Rich was referring to the rules for Vampire: The Masquerade, where drinking from vampires creates Ghouls (mortals temporarily empowered by vampiric blood) and the Blood Bond (creating a fanatical sense of semi-romantic loyalty to the vamp in question).

I was thinking more along the lines of the Ann Rice vampires, where the sexual subtext is thick enough to cut with a dull spoon.

Why limit it to just one or the other? There's a lot of things to parody about vampires in pop culture.

[dtilque]

Loved the Freya joke. I wonder if someone needs to explain it to the rest of the forum...

I posted a link to the story upthread, but really, anyone should be able to google it.

ETA: Just noticed that Porthos reposted the link. Excellent.

[skim172]

What a Jerkon. :smallannoyed:

[Stella]

So the necklace joke went straight over my head. Can anyone explain?
Others have explained. I've read a couple different accounts, and all were tame enough that a child could hear them without really understanding. "Instead of gold, they would sell the necklace to her if she lay with each of them one night." Pretty tame. But that's the story told from the point of view of the gods. The Dwarves might have a far more racy version from their side of things.

[Psyren]

This is the one I'm most sympathetic with. OTOH, I don't believe Durkon has actually claimed that he is still worshipping Thor. He might be allowing Roy to think that. But, then again, I suspect Roy's Knowledge: Religion is pretty much just an Int check for him.

And if Belkar had worded his objection in an ever so slightly different manner (doesn't this storm show that Thor is pissed off with Durkon, even if he was able to send it away) then Roy might have started to think along those lines.

Sadly, as I said, "poor impulse control" and "lack of persuasion skills".

It gets worse too - Durkon explicitly tells Roy he plans to cast the spell again. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0956.html) If he was in good standing with Thor, why would he need to? I mean, it would be one thing if it was a regularly scheduled storm that they stumbled into, but for Thor to routinely harry them throughout his jurisdiction while they're on their way to save the world is a glaring red flag.

I don't think this is foolish on Roy's part though, just a bit too subtle for him to pick up on at the moment.

[Keltest]

It gets worse too - Durkon explicitly tells Roy he plans to cast the spell again. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0956.html) If he was in good standing with Thor, why would he need to? I mean, it would be one thing if it was a regularly scheduled storm that they stumbled into, but for Thor to routinely harry them throughout his jurisdiction while they're on their way to save the world is a glaring red flag.

I don't think this is foolish on Roy's part though, just a bit too subtle for him to pick up on at the moment.

I think the idea is that he plans on making sure they don't run into any other regularly scheduled storms that will shoot them the rest of the way out of the sky, rather than preventing that one from reforming.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Others have explained. I've read a couple different accounts, and all were tame enough that a child could hear them without really understanding. "Instead of gold, they would sell the necklace to her if she lay with each of them one night." Pretty tame. But that's the story told from the point of view of the gods. The Dwarves might have a far more racy version from their side of things.

The request was for a particular song, not a story that can be put into a tame version. The lyrics of the song might be raunchy.

[Kish]

The request was for a particular song, not a story that can be put into a tame version. The lyrics of the song might be raunchy.
Especially if, from the dwarves' point of view, Freyja's interaction with them was the most important part of the story, with, "And then she got in trouble with Odin and Loki" being more of an epilogue.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't think this is foolish on Roy's part though, just a bit too subtle for him to pick up on at the moment.

I think that Roy may be a little too preoccupied currently to notice, but my hypothesis is that at some point he (or someone else) will look at the facts of the storm and have a little "wait a second..." moment.

[FallenFallcrest]

But Unca Squeaky! I wanted to hear the story of Freya getting her necklace from the Brisings!
Good reference. She really couldn't resist *insert subtle innuendo having to do with a necklace here*. I am a big fan of Norse Mythology, so I am kind of excited to be in their domain now. Although, I am curious as to why Surtr exists if the creation myth of this world is so different. And I was disappointed that Banjo did not make it to the Norse Pantheon. He would have made an excellent addition.

[Reddish Mage]

Others have explained. I've read a couple different accounts, and all were tame enough that a child could hear them without really understanding. "Instead of gold, they would sell the necklace to her if she lay with each of them one night." Pretty tame. But that's the story told from the point of view of the gods. The Dwarves might have a far more racy version from their side of things.

The bit about it being a particular song about Freya's necklace, clearly a bawdy medieval tavern song (you can find them, they are remarkably well preserved and timeless!). Also, note that the raunch is part of the point regardless of whether it could be done (and is in fact the standard tale) in a PG version.

[Psyren]

I think the idea is that he plans on making sure they don't run into any other regularly scheduled storms that will shoot them the rest of the way out of the sky, rather than preventing that one from reforming.

But that's exactly the problem - it's at least reasonable for a "regularly scheduled storm" to have caught them off guard as they flew into Thor's jurisdiction from outside. You could rationalize that as "well, Thor couldn't have accommodated us because by the time he was capable of doing so, we were already inside an existing one."

But now that they are wholly within his territory, for a storm to be recurring should be a red flag. Unfortunately, as the HPoH gloated in Durkon's mind, nobody else has the religion required to connect even those fundamental dots.

If Roy doesn't wise up, about the only thing we can rely on now is Haley's Sense Motive. Unfortunately, I don't think Darkon has lied directly to her just yet.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But Unca Squeaky! I wanted to hear the story of Freya getting her necklace from the Brisings!
Good reference. She really couldn't resist *insert subtle innuendo having to do with a necklace here*. I am a big fan of Norse Mythology, so I am kind of excited to be in their domain now. Although, I am curious as to why Surtr exists if the creation myth of this world is so different. And I was disappointed that Banjo did not make it to the Norse Pantheon. He would have made an excellent addition.

I don't know much about Surtr's origin in real life, but I would assume that (if it became necessary) he would have a different background in OOTS to match the details of that world.

[Clistenes]

Necklace? Hmm.


What did the rest of the singing scene mean?

It's a real world myth.

Goddess Freya once tried to buy a gold necklace from some dwarven artisans. The dwarves answered that the only price they would accept in exchange was that all seven of them could have sex with Freya, and she accepted.

Odin learned about it and had Loki steal the necklace, and blackmailed Freya into service in exchange of recovering her necklace.

[Seward]

So the necklace joke went straight over my head. Can anyone explain?

(assuming you read the link) - there are many versions but they all involve sex with a LOT of dwarves with the goddess of love/sex/fertility.

Which is a nice tie-in with Elan's sexual subtext stuff, if you think about it.

[...]

You know, every time I read what Elan's saying in panel 5, I think that he wants to sing a song that is about OWW!! and the various ways dwarves can say it.