Psionics vs Incarnum

[m149307]

Which is better in your opinion for melee, psionics with their powers of the mind... or incarnum with their various usage of chakras. Explain, if possible.

[thethird]

Psionics and Incarnum don't go against each other. They go together. Like Mint Ice cream and chocolate.

[IAmTehDave]

Without some sort of context, you're just leaving a vague short-answer-question-on-a-test in the forum.

What are you trying to accomplish with either? Is this for a character?

[Hazrond]

Which is better in your opinion for melee, psionics with their powers of the mind... or incarnum with their various usage of chakras. Explain, if possible.

I personally take a third option and go with Binding :smallamused:

[m149307]

I ma basically trying to figure out which is better for a melee tankish build. Say like a totemist vs... idk psionics that well, so I can't give an example.

[Red Fel]

Which is better in your opinion for melee, psionics with their powers of the mind... or incarnum with their various usage of chakras. Explain, if possible.

Here's the bottom line.

In terms of raw power and versatility, Psionics is more or less second only to regular spellcasting. With Psionics, you can buff, transform, gain natural weapons, pretty much do whatever you please. Going into melee with strong Psionic support is going to make you a very formidable enemy.

With regard to Incarnum, your melee go-to is the Totemist. The Totemist does one thing exceedingly well, and that's natural weapons. The Totemist whips out a small army of natural weapons and completely unloads on some hapless mook's face.

The thing is... Psionics can do that too. It's called Metamorphosis. Boom, you're a Dragon.

And that's the point. Incarnum is great for a dip, because it adds a slew of versatile options to a character. It's great on its own, because it gives you a small assortment of useful abilities you can switch out on a daily basis.

But Psionics is powerful. Really powerful. And something that potent can make your melees potent too. And it synergizes really well with melee classes. Seriously, there are feats for that. (Yes, we all know how great Tashalatora is at making Monks relevant.) Now, Incarnum feats can augment a melee build nicely as well, but that's an augment, not a focus. Psionics can be a focus and still be potent. Especially then.

I would say that Psionics makes for more potent melee.

[Hazrond]

I ma basically trying to figure out which is better for a melee tankish build. Say like a totemist vs... idk psionics that well, so I can't give an example.

Binding isnt bad for tankish, you got Dahlver Nar with his saying "No you take half any damage you would deal to me" Savnok's standard action enchanted fullplate, Eurynome that gives you a heavy an enchanted adamantine warhammer
(large size) that you can wield in one hand, plenty of options for tankiness here

[Kantolin]

I think if you specifically compare the Psychic Warrior (To-go 'melee psionic' guy) to the Totemist (Potent natural attack 'incarnum guy'), the Psychic warrior is more versatile, but the totemist has a lot of punch and is more offensively-focused.

Psychic warrior is probably a bit 'better', but it depends on what you want. Both are very solid classes that will definitely function and have more they can do besides 'hit things', though. Both have access to pounce or pseudo pounce. Totemist rolls a heck of a lot more dice. :P

(Um, a psion is more powerful, but a psion is 'a full caster' and not 'a melee guy' (Although of course, like most full casters and for example wizards, psions can go melee if they would like to). The incarnate is less powerful - more versatile than a totemist but lacks the oompf. The Soulborn has the very minor advantage of being better than the Soulknife for the purpose of this comparison, and that's all the positive that it's likely to get. :P Anyway, all that is neither here nor there for this discussion really)

[Dominuce2112]

Ive played both til 20. Now I only played each once with its own kind of style but IMO it seems that totemist (incarnum) vs psychic warrior (psionic) is more of a question of versatility vs powerhouse. The list of soulmelds is far greater than the number of psychic warrior spells he can cast. However, psionic powers compared to a single soulmeld (even chakra bound) usually has a greater single effect.

Also, consider the flavor of it all. A mentally focused champion, boosting his abilities thru sheer mental will, vs a natural more tribal based warrior embracing the different aspects of the wild. Very different.

[SinsI]

Incarnum has a problem with inferior support, as that was one of the last 3.5 books.
Compared to that, Psionics has at least 2 main books, plus a bunch of extra options in other supplements.
With things like Psychic Chirurgery, even Psychic Warrior gets access to all the powers up to 6th level, so potential of psionics is much higher, if you are willing to optimize.

On the other hand, a flying, firebreathing Chtulchu/Alien hybrid called Totemist/Incarnate won't lose to some measly Dragon - and Totemist is always Totemist, unlike PsyWarrior that becomes a glorified Fighter once he runs out of Power Points. This is especially true at low levels - Totemist becomes awesome at level 2, when PsyWarrior has a "whole" 1 power point a day.

[Psyren]

Psionics has a higher optimization ceiling, but it has limited fuel (barring cheese) - it can "run out." Some people don't like that, as one of the main draws of melee is that it can do its thing all day long. Incarnum can thus be more fun to actually play a melee character with because there is no resource management involved. You have to allocate essentia of course, but it never actually gets used up.

So which is "better" depends primarily on which playstyle you prefer. Greater power with more resource management, or less power but more freedom to use it frivolously.

Other than that I will strongly echo thethird.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Echoing Psyren and thethird, Psionics has the higher ceiling (your King of Smack, tashalatora spell-to-power Erudite, etc.) but does involve keeping track of your power points (though it's almost trivial to set up some form of recharge or another), whereas the Totemist (or Incarnate) doesn't have to worry about running out of fuel - you just have to determine if you want to divert all auxiliary power to forward shields or wherever (that is, choose where to allocate your essentia this round, if you haven't got a plan for your swift action already). But some of the best Psionic tricks involve dipping into Incarnum for feats or what have you, so rather than asking about Psionics vs. Incarnum, you might want to try Psionics + Incarnum.

[m149307]

OK, and if I wanted to try mixing the two, what would be a good build for melee (sorry to keep asking about melee, I just don't like ranged or casting).

[Kalaska'Agathas]

OK, and if I wanted to try mixing the two, what would be a good build for melee (sorry to keep asking about melee, I just don't like ranged or casting).

What sources are available? What stat generation method are we to use? What level? What degree of optimization is appropriate? Are there any house rules we should be aware of? Are there any particular preferences you have, regarding how you fight (e.g. Natural Weapons, Manufactured Weapons, Grappling, etc.)?

[ComaVision]

OK, and if I wanted to try mixing the two, what would be a good build for melee (sorry to keep asking about melee, I just don't like ranged or casting).

Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a)

[m149307]

What sources are available? What stat generation method are we to use? What level? What degree of optimization is appropriate? Are there any house rules we should be aware of? Are there any particular preferences you have, regarding how you fight (e.g. Natural Weapons, Manufactured Weapons, Grappling, etc.)?
All sources are available. Not too heavy of optimization (as little cheese as possible). Stat generation is 8-18 costs 1 point. 19 and on costs 2. Only house rules I can think of would be the feat progression. I get (for level 8) 5 feats without any races or what not (Level 1,2,4,6,8, continuing every even level). I prefer to fight either Natural Weapons or Manufactured. Dislike grappling :smallfrown:

[Thiyr]

As a sorta stub-build, I'm a fan of invisible fist monk 2/law incarnate 2/ardent 1/soul manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) 10

Take Talashtora, tying monk to soul manifester, and for those 10 levels you're advancing 3 sets of class features. Set up custom mantles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) to help get more solid power choices, and you're golden. Sure, you have a low HD, but your two primary stats are wis and con. Incarnate can boost its durability nicely, and the old share pain/vigor/psicrystal trick can probably make up the rest. Then just punch the world into oblivion! Huzza!

[Red Fel]

Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a)

Oh my goodness, this. This is a beautiful theurge class. Not many classes give you full dual progression - this is 10/10 for both manifesting and meldshaping.

That said, a few provisos. It's a caster-style class - that is, 5/10 BAB, good Will save. It's basically a Psion, minus bonus feats, plus meldshaping.


All sources are available. Not too heavy of optimization (as little cheese as possible). Stat generation is 8-18 costs 1 point. 19 and on costs 2. Only house rules I can think of would be the feat progression. I get (for level 8) 5 feats without any races or what not (Level 1,2,4,6,8, continuing every even level). I prefer to fight either Natural Weapons or Manufactured. Dislike grappling :smallfrown:

And herein lies the challenge. You want melee combat. The nice thing about Incarnum is its "always on" capacity; you don't have to spend rounds buffing or anything like that, you just set up once at the start of your day, and you're good to go.

But let's say you want to use Soul Manifester. Let's take two great melee classes that should taste great together - Psychic Warrior and Totemist.

Now, Soul Manifester gives you new PP/day and powers known as if you had taken a level of your manifesting class. Since PsyWar's only class features are his BAB, bonus feats, PP/day and powers known, you're pretty good there. Your BAB will suffer, but whatever.

Soul Manifester also gives you number of soulmelds shaped, chakra binds, and essentia pool as though you had taken a level of your meldshaper class - here, Totemist. But be clear - chakra binds in this context means "how many soulmelds you can have bound to a chakra," not "which chakras are open to you." This will become important.

Entry requirements for Soul Manifester are, in effect, 2 levels of Totemist (to shape 3 soulmelds and bind 1 chakra), and 4 levels of PsyWar (to get 2nd-level powers). So let's assume you go Totemist 2/ PsiWar 4/ SM 10. That means, at level 16, you will have 9 BAB, 6 soulmelds, 3 binds, 9 essentia capacity, 59 PP/day, 14 powers known, max 5th-level. Specific to soulmelds, you will have binds available for your totem, crown, feet, hands, arms, brow, and shoulder chakras.

Contrast this with if you went straight PsyWar; at 16, you would have 12 BAB, 79 PP, 16 powers known, max 6th-level. Straight Totemist; at 16, you'd have 12 BAB, 8 soulmelds, 13 essentia, 4 binds, access to the above chakras plus the throat and waist chakras, and the ability to double-bind totem soulmelds.

On the other hand, you would have access to the PsyWar's various buffing powers, and ample use of your natural weapon soulmelds. It's a bit messy, and your lower-BAB means you're hurting for to-hit, but when you're swinging so many natural attacks in a round, something's going to land.

With six soulmelds active, you can do a lot. My advice would be to take a race with the Dragonblood subtype, so that you can have access to Draconic Soulmelds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4). There are some delicious natural weapons in there. Here's how you lay them out.

Bind the Girallon Arms soulmeld to your totem chakra. You now have four claw attacks in addition to any other natural weapons you have. Shape Dragon Tail on your waist (you can't bind it without more Totemist levels or a feat); you have a tail attack. Shape Sphinx Claws on your hands, and bind it - you now have a pounce attack with your natural weapons. You can now charge, using your hands (they're natural weapons), plus four claws, and a tail, all on your charge attack.

You want more? Okay, it's power-up time. First, manifest Claws of the Beast, easy. (Note that if you bind Totem Avatar to your shoulders, you can treat your Claws as though you were a size larger. Sadly, this doesn't improve your soulmelds.) Feel free to add bonuses like Claw of Energy, Truevenom, or Claws of the Vampire to make them more obscene. Or you can simply take Improved Unarmed Strike (and perhaps Superior Unarmed Strike) and enjoy iteratives. Throw on Bite of the Wolf, now you have a bite attack, too.

Mind you, your psionic natural weapons are in addition to your soulmelds. Remember also that you can increase the damage (and in some cases, the to-hit bonus) of your soulmelds by investing essentia; same with youir Claws of the Beast. You can make your attacks even deadlier as needed.

Fun times.

As a last aside, if you're willing to sacrifice more BAB, Totemist/Psion/Soul Manifester will give you more toys for your toybox. The build would be Totemist 2/ Psion 3/ Soul Manifester 10, and at the end of that you'd have manifesting as a 13th-level Psion, with 147 PP, 25 powers known, 7th-level max. And Psion powers (particularly those of the Egoist discipline) can be a lot of fun.

[Psyren]

Oh my goodness, this. This is a beautiful theurge class. Not many classes give you full dual progression - this is 10/10 for both manifesting and meldshaping.

There is also beautiful synergy between the two systems in general. Psionics can unlock your chakras up to Waist and Throat without needing feats, plus you get goodies like Psycarnum Infusion, Azure Talent, Midnight Augmentation and Soul Crystal to play with.

[m149307]

Fel, how many attacks would I have at level 8 if I did the Soul Manifester Route? And as for race, I could try running Silver human race (I forget the actual name, but it fits what I am looking for with the dragon [art).

[Red Fel]

Fel, how many attacks would I have at level 8 if I did the Soul Manifester Route? And as for race, I could try running Silver human race (I forget the actual name, but it fits what I am looking for with the dragon [art).

Well, let's assume you're going with Totemist 2/ PsyWar 4/ SM 2, just because reasons.

You're treated as a 4th-level Totemist and a 6th-level Psychic Warrior. That means you have 4 soulmelds shaped, one bound. Your bound soulmeld will be the Girallon arms on your totem chakra - that adds four attacks right there. Shape Dragon Tail for another one. For kicks, let's shape Dread Carapace on your feet (bonus damage on natural weapons, penalty to hit). I'm so whimsical that way. (You could probably do better, but I'm feeling lazy.)

Now, a 6th-level Psychic Warrior has 2nd-level powers. You know what you get as 1st-level powers? Claws of the Beast and Bite of the Wolf. Both of them. And as a bonus (since you can't bind Sphinx Claws yet for permanent Pounce) you can use the 2nd-level Psionic Lion's Charge to make full attacks on a charge.

Now, listen, because this part is important. At higher levels, having unarmed strikes as your primary weapon can net you a larger number of iterative attacks. Natural weapons do not have iterative attacks. However, at level 8 with this build, your total BAB is +5. That means you would have only one attack with your unarmed strike. Claws of the Beast is an improvement over that - on a full attack, you strike with both claws.

So, here's how it plays out. You get 1 bite attack (Bite of the Wolf), 2 claw attacks (Claws of the Beast), 4 more claw attacks (Girallon Arms), and a tail whip (Dragon Tail). That's 8 attacks at level 8. You can also get all of this on a charge (Psionic Lion's Charge).

You like?

[m149307]

Ok, so decent damage... but that assumes I hit what I am attacking. Problem with getting a ton of multiple attacks I assume. And how MAD is the build? I know you need Con, Wis, Str... what else is needed?

[Vhaidara]

That should be it. And the best part is all you have to do is take Multiattack and all of your secondaries are only at -2 from your full attack bonus.

[m149307]

So I could do 18 on all three, and 10 on another stat (probably Int so that I can get the most out of skill points). And by taking Multiattack... I would be hitting with a +7 to hit. I guess that is good?

[Vhaidara]

+9 with your primary, +7 with your secondaries. And actually, if you invest essentia in the Girallon Arms, all of your claws get an enhancement bonus. And +2 to hit with everything if you charge.

All in all, it's a very nice build that I might try to use someday myself.

[Dominuce2112]

Fel, how many attacks would I have at level 8 if I did the Soul Manifester Route? And as for race, I could try running Silver human race (I forget the actual name, but it fits what I am looking for with the dragon [art).

My totemist was thri-kreen. Extra limbs are fun. My psychic warrior was kalashtar. They have some nice features too. mindlink, nice powerpoint pool (1/lvl) and can implant quori shards that increase unarmed damage.

[Vhaidara]

Oh, and as far as race, I would recommend Azurin over Silverbrow Human. Instead of the Disguise bonus and Feather Fall, you get a bonus Essentia. Which is amazing.

[ComaVision]

Oh, and as far as race, I would recommend Azurin over Silverbrow Human. Instead of the Disguise bonus and Feather Fall, you get a bonus Essentia. Which is amazing.

Azurin doesn't qualify for the Draconic Soulmelds (unless you want to waste the bonus feat to pick up the [Dragonblood] subtype).

[Hazrond]

Oh, and as far as race, I would recommend Azurin over Silverbrow Human. Instead of the Disguise bonus and Feather Fall, you get a bonus Essentia. Which is amazing.

He wants the draconic soulmelds

[m149307]

Well, since I have more feats then usual (idk how feat starved this build is) I can spare one on Dragonblood I think.

[Vhaidara]

It might cost him the Dragon Tail, but I would argue the power of a bonus essentia outweighs that attack. It might drop him to 7 attacks, but an extra point into Girallon Arms gives him +1 to hit and damage with 6 of his attacks. And, as has been pointed out, he could spend his bonus feat on Dragontouched.

[Hazrond]

It might cost him the Dragon Tail, but I would argue the power of a bonus essentia outweighs that attack. It might drop him to 7 attacks, but an extra point into Girallon Arms gives him +1 to hit and damage with 6 of his attacks. And, as has been pointed out, he could spend his bonus feat on Dragontouched.

Am i insane, i thought dragontouched explicitly stated you needed a level of sorcerer to take it? :smallconfused:
Edit: huh, i wonder what feat i was thinking of then?

[m149307]

Ok, so I should take feats like psicrystal (for the psicrystal+vigor+share pain combo) + feats for the Incarnum side (Cobalt Charge to be used with P Lion's Charge)... any other feats recommended?

[ComaVision]

Ok, so I should take feats like psicrystal (for the psicrystal+vigor+share pain combo) + feats for the Incarnum side (Cobalt Charge to be used with P Lion's Charge)... any other feats recommended?

Multiattack and Improved Multiattack (MM)

[Psyren]

It might cost him the Dragon Tail, but I would argue the power of a bonus essentia outweighs that attack. It might drop him to 7 attacks, but an extra point into Girallon Arms gives him +1 to hit and damage with 6 of his attacks. And, as has been pointed out, he could spend his bonus feat on Dragontouched.

That won't stack with Amulet of Mighty Fists though, so you may as well go with the item and put your essentia elsewhere (e.g. Midnight Augmentation.)

[Troacctid]

Ask your DM if psicrystals work with Share Soulmeld. That would give them all the benefits of your soulmelds, including the natural attacks.

[Vhaidara]

Am i insane, i thought dragontouched explicitly stated you needed a level of sorcerer to take it? :smallconfused:
Edit: huh, i wonder what feat i was thinking of then?

Draconic Heritage. And Dragontouched lets you count as a sorcerer of your HD for taking the Draconic Heritage line.

Incarnum required feats: Bonus Essentia (6th), Double Chakra Bind (9th), Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (any).
Bonus Essentia nets you two more Essentia since you're a meldshaper
Double Chakra Bind is practically required for Totemist since you can bind Totem Twice
Expanded Soulmeld lets you pump your claws more.