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hakarb
2014-07-22, 01:54 PM
So here is my rogue rework. I need some brutally honest feedback about what looks fun, and what looks overpowered or otherwise broken.

Source is http://thegreylands.com/classes/rogue/

Role: Rogues excel at moving about unseen and catching foes unaware, and tend to avoid head-to-head combat. Their varied skills and abilities allow them to be highly versatile, with great variations in expertise existing between different rogues. Most, however, excel in overcoming hindrances of all types, from unlocking doors and disarming traps to outwitting magical hazards and conning dull-witted opponents.

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d8.

Class Skills
The rogue’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier.

Table: Rogue
Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, Elusive Combatant +1
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Evasion, rogue talent,
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1
4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Rogue talent, uncanny dodge
5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Sneak attack +3d6, Dexterous Strike, Elusive Combatant +2
6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Rogue talent, trap sense +2
7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Sneak attack +4d6
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Sneak attack +5d6, trap sense +3
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Advanced talents, rogue talent, Improved Dexterous Strike, Elusive Combatant +3
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Sneak attack +6d6
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Rogue talent, trap sense +4
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Sneak attack +7d6, Elude Magic
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 Rogue talent
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Sneak attack +8d6, trap sense +5, Elusive Combatant +4
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Rogue talent
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Sneak attack +9d6, Improved Elude Magic
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Rogue talent, trap sense +6
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Sneak attack +10d6
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Master strike, rogue talent, Elusive Combatant +5
Class Features
The following are class features of the rogue.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, long sword, scimitar, and short sword. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet + an additional 10 feet per point of the rogue’s dexterity modifier.

With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.

Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

Elusive Combatant (Ex): A rogue gains a dodge bonus to their AC. This bonus starts at +1 at level 1, and improves to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level and so on…to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most types of bonuses.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Rogue Talents: As a rogue gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. Starting at 2nd level, a rogue gains one rogue talent. She gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels of rogue attained after 2nd level. A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.

Talents marked with an asterisk add effects to a rogue’s sneak attack. Only one of these talents can be applied to an individual attack and the decision must be made before the attack roll is made.

Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue’s sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.

Combat Trick: A rogue that selects this talent gains a bonus combat feat (see Feats).

Fast Stealth (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to move at full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty.

Finesse Rogue: A rogue that selects this talent gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

Skill Trick: A rogue that selects this gains a skill trick

Ledge Walker (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to move along narrow surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a rogue with this talent is not flat-footed when using Acrobatics to move along narrow surfaces.

Major Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue’s level. The save DC for this spell is 11 + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an Intelligence of at least 11 to select this talent. A rogue must have the minor magic rogue talent before choosing this talent.

Minor Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue’s level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an Intelligence of at least 10 to select this talent.

Quick Disable (Ex): It takes a rogue with this ability half the normal amount of time to disable a trap using the Disable Device skill (minimum 1 round).

Resiliency (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this ability can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the rogue’s level. Activating this ability is an immediate action that can only be performed when she is brought to below 0 hit points. This ability can be used to prevent her from dying. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute. If the rogue’s hit points drop below 0 due to the loss of these temporary hit points, she falls unconscious and is dying as normal.

Rogue Crawl (Ex): While prone, a rogue with this ability can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. A rogue with this talent can take a 5-foot step while crawling.

Slow Reactions* (Ex): Opponents damaged by the rogue’s sneak attack can’t make attacks of opportunity for 1 round.

Stand Up (Ex): A rogue with this ability can stand up from a prone position as a free action. This still provokes attacks of opportunity for standing up while threatened by a foe.

Surprise Attack (Ex): During the surprise round, opponents are always considered flat-footed to a rogue with this ability, even if they have already acted.

Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.

Weapon Training: A rogue that selects this talent gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.

Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.

If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.

This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.

If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Dexterous strike (Ex): Upon reaching 5th level you apply your Dexterity bonus as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to 1/2 any Strength bonus you may have) with any of the following weapons: all light melee weapons, all ranged weapons, rapier, long sword, scimitar, and any weapon that you have the weapon finesse feat for. This bonus only applies to the first attack each round. Targets immune to sneak attacks or extra damage from critical hits are immune to your dexterous strike.

Note: Dexterous strike does not allow a rogue to use their strength bonus on damage rolls with any weapon they wouldn’t normally be able to.

Advanced Talents: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a rogue can choose one of the following advanced talents in place of a rogue talent.

Crippling Strike* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage.

Defensive Roll (Ex): With this advanced talent, the rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.

Dispelling Attack* (Su): Opponents that are dealt sneak attack damage by a rogue with this ability are affected by a targeted dispel magic, targeting the lowest-level spell effect active on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue’s level. A rogue must have the major magic rogue talent before choosing dispelling attack.

Improved Evasion (Ex): This works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for skill mastery to apply to each time.

Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the rogue’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.

Feat: A rogue may gain any feat that she qualifies for in place of a rogue talent.

Improved Dextrous Strike(Ex): Beginning at 10th level, a rogue can also add half of his sneak attack damage dice (rounded down) to a dexterous strike.

Example: Jerry the 10th level rogue can makes a successful attack with his dagger, he deals 1d4 as normal and adds 2d6 from his sneak attack dice.

Elude Magic(Ex): Beginning at 13th level, once per day as as swift action a rogue can ignore an ongoing magical effect for one round. The rogue can make a saving throw, using his reflex save. If the ongoing effect is personally affecting the rogue, such as a Charm Person, Hold Person, etc, successful use of this ability cancels the effect. This ability does not affect an ability as it is being cast. A rogue can use this ability to ignore effects that are permanent or temporary such as a Wall of force, Darkness, etc but will not cancel those effects or negate them for anyone else.

Improved Elude Magic (Ex): At 17th level, the rogue’s ability to elude magic improves, allowing him to roll a saving throw even if a spell would not normally allow it to ignore it’s effects when it targets him. If the spell does not target him directly, he does not gain a saving throw.

Master Strike (Ex): Upon reaching 20th level, a rogue becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak attack damage. Each time the rogue deals sneak attack damage, she can choose one of the following three effects: the target can be put to sleep for 1d4 hours, paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or slain. Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue’s master strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.

Phelix-Mu
2014-07-22, 03:51 PM
Things like this may or may not get more attention in the homebrew section. But I will bump this to the top for you, just in case you prefer this sub-forum. *bump* :smallsmile:

hakarb
2014-07-22, 04:00 PM
Things like this may or may not get more attention in the homebrew section. But I will bump this to the top for you, just in case you prefer this sub-forum. *bump* :smallsmile:

You sir are a scholar and a gentleman. I'm just looking for as much feedback as possible to see if the additions to the rogue give it more of a sense of identity and fix some of it's problems.

Phelix-Mu
2014-07-22, 04:37 PM
Thoughts:

- If a skill trick is selected as a Rogue Talent, have it usable several times per encounter (RAW, almost all of them are once only). Also, probably should solidify rate of use outside of an "encounter" as the RAW is a little vague about this (not that it applies to most of them). I'd consider something like 1 use/3 or 4 rogue levels). This would be more in-line with a class feature, since otherwise the Rogue Talent basically gets you two free skill points that you have to spend a certain way (not as good as the rest of the talents, imo).

- Consider having the Minor/Major Magic Talents be Su? That would be cool. Also, definitely remove the min Int requirement. Not sure that makes sense unless you want to pigeonhole your rogues to tend to be Int-oriented (not usually good to hinge a non-spellcasting class on a single ability, not that a single talent does this, mind you, but I don't see a need to replicate the Int-requirement of the wizard).

- A major flaw of rogues is that a large portion of the game is immune to precision damage. You should either a.) incorporate the existing ACFs that partially mitigate this into your fix/explicitly allow them, or b.) make sure to address this somehow. A quick scan didn't turn up an obvious solution, and several of the things you added are hobbled by the same exclusion. Note that, unless I'm mistaken, about one-third of creature types are immune to criticals (and I'm blanking on whether this means they are also immune to SA, disregard on if I'm wrong...damn Exalted is eating up my D&D headcanon).

hakarb
2014-07-22, 04:45 PM
Thoughts:

- If a skill trick is selected as a Rogue Talent, have it usable several times per encounter (RAW, almost all of them are once only). Also, probably should solidify rate of use outside of an "encounter" as the RAW is a little vague about this (not that it applies to most of them). I'd consider something like 1 use/3 or 4 rogue levels). This would be more in-line with a class feature, since otherwise the Rogue Talent basically gets you two free skill points that you have to spend a certain way (not as good as the rest of the talents, imo).

- Consider having the Minor/Major Magic Talents be Su? That would be cool. Also, definitely remove the min Int requirement. Not sure that makes sense unless you want to pigeonhole your rogues to tend to be Int-oriented (not usually good to hinge a non-spellcasting class on a single ability, not that a single talent does this, mind you, but I don't see a need to replicate the Int-requirement of the wizard).

- A major flaw of rogues is that a large portion of the game is immune to precision damage. You should either a.) incorporate the existing ACFs that partially mitigate this into your fix/explicitly allow them, or b.) make sure to address this somehow. A quick scan didn't turn up an obvious solution, and several of the things you added are hobbled by the same exclusion. Note that, unless I'm mistaken, about one-third of creature types are immune to criticals (and I'm blanking on whether this means they are also immune to SA, disregard on if I'm wrong...damn Exalted is eating up my D&D headcanon).

Will remove int requirement, will make it into a Su or a Sp so armor won't matter.

Will change from uses per day, to uses per encounter.

Will change dexterous strike to work on anything (it's just a strike that is more damaging because it's more accurate, so even if the creature doesn't have vital spots, it's still a hit that is hitting a zombie with it's force more correctly aimed).

Vhaidara
2014-07-22, 07:19 PM
Okay, my first request is one of formatting. Put your class progression in a table, bold your ability names, and spoiler your list of talents/advanced talents. It helps vastly with readability.

Ravens_cry
2014-07-22, 08:22 PM
I see a lot of stuff from Pathfinder here. One thing I would do would be increase the amount of creature's that can be sneak attacked to at least Pathfinder levels.

Phelix-Mu
2014-07-23, 01:26 AM
I see a lot of stuff from Pathfinder here. One thing I would do would be increase the amount of creature's that can be sneak attacked to at least Pathfinder levels.

Yeah, I do like the change to Dextrous Strike, but following the same logic, it would be nice for the rogue not to be sidelined in any combat with things immune to precision (which is, I think, constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and, the big one, undead...that's a hefty portion of everything right there). Maybe add in an option for one of the Rogue Talents to be able to deal 1/2 sneak attack dice (round up) to things normally immune. For the Greater Rogue Talent, make it full sneak attack dice. This way it costs the rogue something to get the full use, and avoids forcing the issue for DMs that really aren't using much SA immune stuff (making the expansion to the list seem like too much gravy, I guess).

Frankly, in the big scheme of optimization, being able to gank things efficiently is not a big deal. Spellcasting would still beat the pants off a rogue that could Sneak Attack anything at full effectiveness, from any distance. After all, such a version of Sneak Attack would just be a highly situational, less reliable, and less versatile Eldritch Blast, and even Eldritch Blast doesn't give the warlock any huge tier advantage.

That said, I do like what is going on here. Modular classes are cool, and I always liked the Rogue Ability thing from Core. This expands it and allows more variety in choices, avoiding rogues needing to rely on feats or PrCs to avoid Vanilla Rogue Syndrome.