PDA

View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Focus Sniper. A mundane, single shot archer.



Epsilon Rose
2014-07-22, 03:20 PM
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/333/f/4/sniper_by_kingofdeathc-d5mib9v.jpg (http://kingofdeathc.deviantart.com/art/Sniper-340136851)
-I have you in my eye.-


The Focus Sniper
Most archers, crossbowmen, and would be snipers focus more on how many projectiles they can put down range, with little regard for precision or their allies. They are not Focus Snipers.
Unlike most rangers, Focus snipers are highly trained, elite, units that specialize is long range precision damage, battlefield tactics and reconnaissance. In combat, they operate by forgoing multiple attacks in exchange for bonus damage and trading bonus damage for special effects. Out of combat they are capable of granting their allies long term buffs and new abilities.

Abilities: Focus Snipers tend to focus on intelligence and dexterity. Intelligence boosts their DCs, lets them stack more Sneak Attack die, and increases the number of allies they can effect with overwatch. Dexterity increases their ac and initiative as well as their ability to hit their targets.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Focus Snipers's have the following game statistics.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8

Class Skills
The Focus Sniper's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are:
[/B] Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (wis), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History) Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points at First Level: (8 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier

Focus Sniper


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special

Sneak Attack


1st
+1
+0
+2
+0
Focus Shot, Sneak Attack

1d6


2nd
+2
+0
+3
+0
Tactical Shot(1)

1d6


3rd
+3
+1
+3
+1
Overwatch (1)

1d6


4th
+4
+1
+4
+1
Tactical Shot(2)

2d6


5th
+5
+1
+4
+1
Spotter (1st)

2d6


6th
+6/+1
+2
+5
+2
Tactical Shot(3), Overwatch (2)

2d6


7th
+7/+2
+2
+5
+2
Ricochet

3d6


8th
+8/+3
+2
+6
+2
Tactical Shot(4)

3d6


9th
+9/+4
+3
+6
+3
Overwatch (3)

3d6


10th
+10/+5
+3
+7
+3
Tactical Shot(5), Spotter (2nd)

4d6


11th
+11/+6/+1
+3
+7
+3
Double Overwatch

4d6


12th
+12/+7/+2
+4
+8
+4
Tactical Shot(6), Overwatch (4)

4d6


13th
+13/+8/+3
+4
+8
+4
Conservation of Ammo

5d6


14th
+14/+9/+4
+4
+9
+4
Tactical Shot(7)

5d6


15th
+15/+10/+5
+5
+9
+5
Overwatch (5), Spotter (3rd)

5d6


16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+5
+10
+5
Tactical Shot(8)

6d6


17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+5
+10
+5
Hide in Plain Sight

6d6


18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+6
+11
+6
Tactical Shot(9), Overwatch (6)

6d6


19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+6
+11
+6
Bonus Feat

7d6


20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+6
+12
+6
Tactical Shot(10), Spotter (4th)

7d6



Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Marksmen.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:A focus sniper is proficient with all simple weapons and all martial weapons that have range increments. Additionally, if guns exist, snipers are proficient with handguns and long arms, even if they would normally be exotic weapons.

Focus snipers are only proficient with light armor and no shields.

Sneak Attack: If a focus sniper can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The sniperís attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the sniper flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every three sniper levels there after. Should the sniper score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 60 feet.

A sniper can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomiesóundead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The sniper must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A sniper cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Focus Shot: A focus sniper may forgo a number of attacks equal to her int mod + her class level/4 to focus on a target. For every attack she forgoes she may multiply the number of sneak attack dice she receives on one attack against that target by 3 and the range at which she may make sneak attacks by 2. Bonus dice need not be spent immediately, but they must all apply to the same attack.

A sniper may only focus on 1 creature at a time. She must declare what creature she is focusing on before she forgoes her attacks and if she changes targets before firing all of her accumulated bonus dice are lost. If a sniper forgoes attacks when making a full attack with multiple iterative attacks, she forgoes lower iterative attacks first, even if she declares she is forgoing them before attacking and she does not need to actually be able to take an attack in order to forgo it. She may also attack a creature other than the one she is focusing on without losing focus.

A sniper may only focus on a target she has line of sight to. Every round she does not forgo at least 1 attack to focus on her target, she loses 1 bonus dice. If she does not have line of sight to her target, she instead loses 2 bonus dice.

A sniper may not forgo additional attacks from rapid shot or many shot to gain bonus dice, nor may she use such an attack to fire a focus shot. Those techniques rely on firing quickly, at the expense of accuracy, while focus shots function by pinpointing the most vulnerable points on a target and firing with extreme accuracy. Similarly, extra attacks from splitting canít be forgone to gain bonus dice, since itís just the result of the arrow splitting mid air. A splitting attack can, however, be used to fire a focus shot, but only one arrow carries the bonus damage.

Tactical Shot (Ex): Sometimes, simply shooting a target isnít enough. At second level and every subsequent even level, a focus sniper may learn to use a tactical shot from the following list. Each tactical shot costs a number of sneak attack die to use. If applied to a focus shot, this number is subtracted after calculating bonus die. Multiple Tactical Shots may be applied to a single arrow and a target need not be vulnerable to sneak attacks for a tactical shot to apply. If an arrow has splitting, tactical shots may only be applied to 1 half of it.

Steady Shot
Cost: 2d6
You have learned to weight and dampen your arrows against arcane interference. Your arrow can ignore effects, like windwall and protection from arrows, that would normally hamper ranged weapons specifically.
Weakening Shot
Cost: 2d6
You have learned to coat your arrows with special abrasives and irritants. A successful hit from you arrow will lower a creature's damage reduction by 1 and energy resistance by 2 for 1 round. This has no effect on a creature that is immune to a type of damage or energy.
Special: This shot can be applied multiple times. Itís effects stack
Reliable Shot
Cost: 1d6
Certain creatures would seem to lack vital points, but thatís not really the case and youíve figured out how to bypass their seeming immunity. Your sneak attack can affect a creature that is normally immune to sneak attacks. This does not make them vulnerable to a critical hit, however.
Vicious Shot
Cost: 5d6
You have learned how to target your arrows in a particularly vicious manner. Your shot deal normal damage to creatures with regeneration.
Suppressing Shot
Cost: 3d6
Youíve learned that sometimes itís better to aim for effect, rather than damage. A creature targeted by your arrow, whether or not it hits, must make a will save with a DC of 10+int+1/2lv or become suppressed. A suppressed creature takes -4 to their attack rolls and can only move at half speed. Suppression lasts for 1 round. Alternatively, a creature that failed its save, but was not hit, may opt to instead take the hit at half damage and not be suppressed.
Special: Suppressing Shot can be applied a second time; itís effects do not stack. Instead, in addition to itís other effects, a creature who is suppressed can only take a move or a standard action and must seek cover if it is available.
Bursting Shot
Cost: 2d6
You have learned to rig your arrows so they split into multiple projectiles in mid air. Instead of targeting a single creature, you may make separate attacks against each creature in a 5ft burst. Weapon damage is applied to these creatures normally, but sneak attack dice must be split between targets.
Special: This shot can be applied multiple times. Each application increases the radius of the burst by 5ft
Line Shot
Cost: 6d6
You have learned how to harden your arrows, allowing them to pierce through multiple targets. You may make an attack against all targets in a line equal to 1 range increment from your first target. This does not allow you to hit targets beyond your maximum range and penalties for multiple range increments apply normally.
Special: This shot can be used with ricochet, but each bounce after piercing starts causes all subsequent movement to cost double (so x2 after the first bounce, x3 after the second, and so on). No matter how many times you bounce a shot through them, you may only target each enemy once per shot.
Special: This shot can be used with Bursting Shot. Each application of bursting shot increases the width of the line by 5ft and sneak attack dice must be divided between columns, not individual targets.
Countercast Shot
Cost: 3d6
You have learned to target your shots in a way that is extremely disruptive to mystic energies. Instead of firing your shot immediately, you hold it ready until a spell caster within your line of sight attempts to cast a spell, at which point you may fire it at them if you so choose. Any damage done by this shot it multiplied by 1.5 when determining the DC of their concentration check to successfully cast the spell. Even if you miss, they must still make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10+lv or lose the spell. You may ready multiple shots in this way, but shots only stay readied until the beginning of your next turn and can not be used for any other purpose.
Sundering Shot
Cost:2d6
Youíve learned that sometimes the best way to defeat an enemy is to destroy their equipment. You may attempt to sunder an opponentís equipment with your shot. If you hit, you do full damage to their equipment.
Special: If you have the ranged sunder feat, you instead do double damage.
Tripping Shot
Cost: 2d6
Sometimes you really want someone to just sit down. Thatís why youíve developed this shot. If your attack hits, you may make a trip attempt at a +2 bonus.
Buffeting Shot
Cost: 2d6
Youíve learned to make people go away. If your attack hits, you may attempt to bullrush your target. Use your Intelligence instead of your strength and the size of your weapon instead of your size. You may also designate a number of sneak attack dice to add a bonus to your check, rather than damage. These dice must be chosen before you make your attack. You can not push a target more than 5ft beyond your range limit, regardless of how far your attempt might normally be able to push them.
Special: You may use this shot with ricochet to change which direction your arrow came from and, subsequently, which direction they are pushed. If you angle your shot to come from below, they are pushed straight up. In this case, they only move half the normal distance, but take appropriate falling damage when they land and must make a reflex save with a DC of 10+1/2lv or fall prone.
Pinning Shot
Cost: 2d6
Youíve learned how to make people stay still. If your attack hits, you may make a ranged grapple attempt against an opponent by pinning a bit of it's clothing to a nearby surface. The target must be within 5' of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck. Make an opposed grapple check (using your weaponís size in place of your own). You may also designate a number of sneak attack dice to add a bonus to your check, rather than damage. These dice must be chosen before you make your attack.

To break free, the victim must make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape artist check as a standard action.

Finally, if not used to pin a target, this technique can be used to create hand holds in a surface.

Special: If this shot is used in conjunction with Buffeting Shot or Wing Clipping shot, you may attempt to pin your opponent at any point during their motion.
Wing Clipping Shot
Cost: 2d6
Youíve learned how to attach wire and twine to your arrows, such that when they hit a flying target they cause it to lose altitude and possibly become ground bound. If you hit your target they lose 10ft of altitude. If this causes them to hit the ground, they take falling damage as appropriate and must make reflex save with a DC of 10+int+1/2lv or lose the ability to fly for 1 round.
Special: This ability may be applied multiple times. Each time itís applied, increase the distance fallen by 10ft and the number of rounds a target canít fly by 1.
Ghost Shot
Cost: 5d6
Never again will you have to contend with an incorporeal opponent simply avoiding your slings and arrows. Your shot now ignores miss chance from incorporeality and half of the miss chance from spells like blur.



Overwatch(Ex): You have been trained to keep a keen eye on the battlefield and call out tactical instructions to your allies. Starting at 3rd level and every 3 levels after that, a focus sniper may learn 1 overwatch technique from the following list. A sniper may activate an overwatch technique as a swift action, at which point a number of allies, up to her class level plus her intelligence modifier, who can hear the sniper (or otherwise receive communications from her) gain itís benefits until she decides to activate a new overwatch technique. A sniper counts as her own ally and is always considered to be able to receive communications from herself. All numerical bonuses from overwatch techniques are competence bonuses, even if this would not normally be possible.

A sniper may only have 1 overwatch technique active at a given time, until she reaches level 11, at which point she may keep 2 techniques active.


Boost Attack: Your allies receive a bonus to their attack equal to half the number of sneak attack dice you normally have (minimum 1)
Boost Defense: Your allies receive a bonus to their AC equal to half the number of sneak attack dice you normally have (minimum 1).
Boost Damage: Your allies receive a bonus to their damage rolls equal to half the number of sneak attack dice you normally have (minimum 1).
Boost Offense: Your allies receive a bonus to their attack and damage rolls. The total bonus is equal to half the number of sneak attack dice you would normally receive (minimum 1) and may be split between attack and damage however you like when this technique is first activated. This technique stacks with boost attack and boost damage.
Boost Save: Your allies receive a bonus to their saves equal to half the number of sneak attack dice you normally have (minimum 1).
Boost Defense: Your allies receive a bonus to their AC and Saves. The total bonus is equal to half the number of sneak attack dice you would normally receive (minimum 1) and may be split between ac and saves however you like when this technique is first activated. This technique stacks with Boost Defense and Boost Saves
Boost Skills: Your allies receive a bonus to either Hide and Move Silently or Balance, Tumble, Climb, Jump, and Swim, chosen when this technique is activated equal to the number of sneak attack dice you would normally receive.
Trap Finding: Your allies gain trap finding as the rogue ability.
Hunting: Your allies gain the tracking feat. At level 9 they also gain the darkstalker feat.
Ambush: Your allies receive a full round whenever they would normally get to take a surprise round.



Spotter(Ex): Starting at level 5, you may designate 1 willing creature as your spotter. This take 10 minutes of explaining what the role entails and what you need them to do. From then on, as long as they are able to intelligibly communicate with you, you may draw line of sight as if you were them, in addition to yourself. This means, not only are you able to draw line of sight from their square, but if they can see an opponent you can not (for example, if they have see invisibility and you do not) you may treat that opponent as if you could see them when drawing line of sight from your spotter. Conversely, if you can see an opponent that they can not (for example, if you rolled higher on your spot check) you may not draw line of sight from your spotter.

Every 5 levels after 5th, you may have another active spotter. Spotters may relay instructions through each other, but you take a -1 penalty to attack for reach relay necessary to reach you.

Ricochet(Ex): Lining up shots can get finicky sometimes. Thereís not always a straight line between you and your target that lacks annoying obstructions like trees, walls, and your allies. Fortunately, youíve learned how to ricochet your shots off most of those. Starting at level 7, you may bounce your projectiles off of any hard and stationary surface, even a forewarned allieís shield. You may make any number of bounces in an attempt to draw a line to your opponent, though each bounce counts as 5ft of movement in itís own right.

You suffer a cumulative -2 penalty to your shot for every bounce you or a spotter cannot see, though you can still make the shot if you or a spotter are familiar with the terrain. If an enemy has cover or total cover, you may ignore their cover, provided you can draw a valid line to them, but they will have an equivalent amount of concealment, unless you have a spotter that can see them.

Conservation of Ammo(Ex): Youíve finally learned to be careful with your ammo. Starting at Lv13, your ammo is no longer destroyed when you fire it (unless itís designed to explode on a hit, or otherwise only function once). However, an enemy may destroy a piece of ammo that is in an adjacent square (or lodged in their body) as part of a move action. They may only do this once per move action.

Hide in Plain Sight(Ex): Beginning at 17th level, you may use the hide skill, even when youíre being observed.

Bonus Feat: At level 19, a focus fighter may choose 1 bonus feat for which they qualify.

Supreme Focus(Ex): You have honed your focus to a terrifying edge. You are always gathering information and assessing targets, even when focusing on something else. At 20th level, once per day, you may act as if you had forgone 1 attack in each of the preceding rounds of the current encounter for the purpose of determining bonus dice on each of your attacks this round, regardless of who you target or how many attacks you make, even if your target joined the fight midway through. These bonus dice do not stack with normal bonus dice, nor do they persist after your turn ends.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-22, 03:21 PM
Reserved for acfs, items and feats.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-22, 03:22 PM
I created the Focus Sniper because, recently, I've seen a couple of attempts at non-standard rangers and, while I didn't particularly like the execution of either, they reminded me how much I wanted an actual sniper class and, more importantly, gave me an idea on how to build one.

With that said, I should probably start by addressing the elephant in the room. Focus Snipers are capable of getting a lot of bonus damage to an attack. The thing is, they have to give up a lot of attacks to get those bonuses. At the end of the day, there damage is pretty comparable (http://anydice.com/program/4174) to a rogue using rapid shot and splitting, neither of which benefit the sniper nearly as much. The damage got to where it was because I was trying to fulfill two sets of competing objectives.

The first set of objectives was having class that could bunker-down and forgo actions to deliver a devastating alpha strike Vs. the ability for them to effectively participate in normal combat without completely changing their style or spending every other round doing nothing. To accomplish that, I decided to have them sack their attacks to get bonus dice of sneak attack damage and then tried to adjust their base SA and how many bonus dice they got so that sacking a rounds worth of iteratives (with one left over to attack) would be enough to put them on a standard damage curve.

The second set of objectives was giving them more carried combat the "I shoot it with my bow" without it becoming abusable or overly complex. Originally, I was going to have them get "Focus Points" which could be spent on tactical shots, one of which would have given bonus dice. However, when I was looking at that, I realized that spending a focus point on anything other than the damage boost would chunk their DPS (or make their damage really hard to balance) and they'd only be able to use a few abilities on a shot. Instead, I decided to go with spending bonus dice, so there'd be more fine grained control over damage lost and it would be easier to put together interesting combos. It also, hopefully, means that the Tactical Shots don't need to be as powerful.

The Tactical shots do a lot of the work when it comes to combat, but there are a lot of things about them that I'm unsure about. In particular, the prices are pretty arbitrary and I'm not sure if I need to come up with more interesting effects or more shots in general. (If you think of one that sounds fun, feel free to suggest it.)

Over Watch Techniques were my attempt to give Focus Snipers some out of combat utility. I also really like the idea of a sniper that's trained to assess the field from far away and relay tactical advice to his allies. That said, I'm not sure how well it's bonuses scale and I'm worried that the options might be a bit to bland.

Finally, HiP and the bonus feat were mostly filler, and I'm not particularly happy with that. The only problem is, I'm not sure what I could replace them with.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-24, 09:39 PM
Huh. It seems I messed up my calculations for the rogues damage. I had accidentally put them down as only doing 7d6 SA damage. Turns out that a rogue with splitting actually does a lot more damage then a Focus Sniper. (http://anydice.com/program/41b1)

Also, is there any chance someone could review this, or suggest how I could improve it to the point where people would be willing to review it?

Stellar_Magic
2014-07-24, 11:43 PM
Okay, seeing that this has 8+Int*4 I'm going to assume this is for a 3.5 or 3.0 DnD game. I'm more the '3.75' Pathfinder and Saga Edition player myself, but anyway... but lets get started. I have a couple suggestions...

1.) Focus Shot... Call it Aimed Shot, and it needs a couple tweaks to really work ideally to me. For one thing, lets steal a mechanic from Saga Edition for this. Aiming takes two swift actions (ergo making it so you can't move and aim and stopping full-attack actions). If you aim at a target, your shot ignores all cover, including 'soft cover' and does not take the -5 penalty for firing into a melee.

At 5th level, and every 5 levels afterwards, your aimed shots do an additional die of weapon damage, and the maximum range for your sneak attacks increases by 30 ft when made by an aimed shot.

At 20th level enemies are always considered flatfooted by your Aimed Shots, so long as they are within one range increment of you.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-24, 11:54 PM
Okay, seeing that this has 8+Int*4 I'm going to assume this is for a 3.5 or 3.0 DnD game. I'm more the '3.75' Pathfinder and Saga Edition player myself, but anyway... but lets get started. I have a couple suggestions...

This was written for 3.5, but it could be used in pathfinder with only a minor change to the skills.


1.) Focus Shot... Call it Aimed Shot, and it needs a couple tweaks to really work ideally to me. For one thing, lets steal a mechanic from Saga Edition for this. Aiming takes two swift actions (ergo making it so you can't move and aim and stopping full-attack actions).
In 3.5 and PF you can only take 1 swift action per turn and it doesn't interfere with taking full attacks. Also, it's meant to be used with full attacks because it work by sacrificing your iteratives for extra damage on a single shot.

Also, why do you suggest changing it to aimed shot?


If you aim at a target, your shot ignores all cover, including 'soft cover' and does not take the -5 penalty for firing into a melee.

At 5th level, and every 5 levels afterwards, your aimed shots do an additional die of weapon damage, and the maximum range for your sneak attacks increases by 30 ft when made by an aimed shot.

At 20th level enemies are always considered flatfooted by your Aimed Shots, so long as they are within one range increment of you.

Err... none of that really works with this class's mechanics and if you're expecting them to only fire 1 shot per round it won't output nearly enough damage. In fact, they'd be significantly better off just making a full attack.

Stellar_Magic
2014-07-25, 12:44 AM
In 3.5 and PF you can only take 1 swift action per turn and it doesn't interfere with taking full attacks. Also, it's meant to be used with full attacks because it work by sacrificing your iteratives for extra damage on a single shot.

Also, why do you suggest changing it to aimed shot?

Well, first off if you're a sniper you're making aimed shots... that's sort of the definition of sniper. I forgot that you couldn't use a move action as a swift in Pathfinder (that's how two swift actions plus a standard attack works in Saga Edition for aimed fire). You can just consider an aimed shot a full-attack action due to the difference in mechanics then.

An aimed shot is a full-attack action that does not gain bonus attacks for having a Base Attack Bonus of +5, +10, +15, or +20. Instead it only makes the one attack (at full base attack bonus), and it's damage increases by +1 die per 5 levels. This is about ideal for a crossbow or firearm as there isn't any strength modifier to scale or so forth for those weapons. It should also probably give a +1 die at 1st level, just to make it clearly different.


Err... none of that really works with this class's mechanics and if you're expecting them to only fire 1 shot per round it won't output nearly enough damage. In fact, they'd be significantly better off just making a full attack.

Not really... At 5th level you gain a second attack at -5 penalty to attack. If they're an archer this means two attacks with 1d8 damage, one at +5 and one at +0. Or possibly three with rapid shot (+3/+3/-2). The average damage output of a focus sniper would be 3d8 damage, roughly equaling that rapid shot attack without taking a penalty to hit, like a sniper...

As for bypassing cover, soft cover, and the -5 penalty for firing into a melee... If the GM isn't making it so the enemy is using cover or calling out that penalty, someone is doing something wrong. You don't want to know the number of times I've ended up being told I shot my buddy due to that by the GM.

Because of all this, an aimed shot deals 3d8 damage with a +5 attack bonus at level 5, increasing to a 4d8 at level 10, a 5d8 at level 15, and a 6d8 at level 20. While you may deal slightly less damage then a full attack action (damage from strength bonuses and so forth isn't increasing), it more then evens out, as you're not taking that -5 penalty for second, third, and fourth attacks - therefore you're not missing nearly as often. Which makes sense since you're exchanging pure damage for reliably striking the enemy every single round. You are a sniper after all. This also finally makes it viable to use a crossbow at high levels... Since an aimed heavy crossbow shot is doing 2d10-6d10 damage, the whole problem of reloading and not being able to rain down arrows is eliminated.

Mechanically you can choose at any time to make a normal full-attack action if the situation warrants it for any reason, so the 'rain of arrows' attack is still viable. It makes sense if you're shooting a crowd of low-level baddies for example.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-25, 01:19 AM
Well, first off if you're a sniper you're making aimed shots... that's sort of the definition of sniper. I forgot that you couldn't use a move action as a swift in Pathfinder (that's how two swift actions plus a standard attack works in Saga Edition for aimed fire). You can just consider an aimed shot a full-attack action due to the difference in mechanics then..

I called it a focus shot because they're focusing on a target and don't want it to get confused with other, existing, mechanics. It can also be charged for more then one round.


Not really... At 5th level you gain a second attack at -5 penalty to attack. If they're an archer this means two attacks with 1d8 damage, one at +5 and one at +0. Or possibly three with rapid shot (+3/+3/-2). The average damage output of a focus sniper would be 3d8 damage, roughly equaling that rapid shot attack without taking a penalty to hit, like a sniper...
If you're just doing that, you're probably not doing enough damage to contribute. Second attacks also come at 6th level and I'm comparing it to a rogue who, at that point, will be doing 1d8+str(for a composite bow)+enchantments+3d6 with a single attack, double that with rapid shot, quadruple with rapid shot and splitting arrows, sextuple with haste, rapid shot, and splitting arrows.


As for bypassing cover, soft cover, and the -5 penalty for firing into a melee... If the GM isn't making it so the enemy is using cover or calling out that penalty, someone is doing something wrong. You don't want to know the number of times I've ended up being told I shot my buddy due to that by the GM.
Precise shot is a feat that will passively remove the -4 penalty for firing into melee.
The rules do not normally cause you to hit an ally when firing into melee. That would be a house rule.
There are feats that allow you to passively ignore cover, but this class can do that anyways by using spotters and ricochet.


Because of all this, an aimed shot deals 3d8 damage with a +5 attack bonus at level 5, increasing to a 4d8 at level 10, a 5d8 at level 15, and a 6d8 at level 20. While you may deal slightly less damage then a full attack action (damage from strength bonuses and so forth isn't increasing), it more then evens out, as you're not taking that -5 penalty for second, third, and fourth attacks - therefore you're not missing nearly as often. Which makes sense since you're exchanging pure damage for reliably striking the enemy every single round. You are a sniper after all. This also finally makes it viable to use a crossbow at high levels... Since an aimed heavy crossbow shot is doing 2d10-6d10 damage, the whole problem of reloading and not being able to rain down arrows is eliminated. You know, that anydice link leads to a damage comparison with a reasonable rogue (It's more readable if you click the summary tab). It's not actually weighted for probability, but they do a lot more damage then you seem to think they do.

jiriku
2014-07-25, 01:42 AM
For additional abilities:

An elite reconnaissance class with both Search and Disable Device as class skills needs Trapfinding.
Instead of Hide in Plain Sight, how about the ability to reduce/ignore the -20 penalty for snipe-and-hide, along with perhaps the ability to reduce/ignore the penalty for accelerated movement while performing skill checks like Hide, Move Silently, Climb, Tumble, and Balance?

How about some ability to mitigate the distance penalty for making Spot checks, which is really the bane of a sniper under d&d rules? You might reduce the penalty from -1 per 10 ft. to -1 per 20 ft, 30 ft, 40 ft, etc as you advance in level.

For advanced recon, how about the ability to make unusual use of skills, like the ability to use social skills at a penalty even without a common language (through pantomime and innuendo)? Consider enhanced options for Survival and Gather Information, like moving at more than half speed while tracking or foraging, access to Track or Urban Tracking as a bonus feat, or the ability to use Gather Information discreetly by managing to overhear the right conversations, rather than directly asking questions. Perhaps the character could use Bluff or Hide in conjunction with Survival to blaze a trail that only his allies can see and use, enabling them to move quickly via overland travel through difficult regions while denying foes the ability to follow that same trail.

Looking at your class mechanics, I'm really struggling with Focus Shot, Spotter, and Ricochet. I can tell generally what the ability does but the specifics of how you wrote it is confusing and difficult to interpret. You might consider redrafting those sections for clarity.

I'm disappointed not to see Concentration on the skill list or involved with the class mechanics in a class whose them is focus. But I'll admit I haven't got any ideas on how you might integrate it.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-25, 02:05 AM
An elite reconnaissance class with both Search and Disable Device as class skills needs Trapfinding.
Technically, they can give themselves, and the rest of their party, trapfinding as an overwatch ability. That said, those are relatively limited. Do you think it would be better as a standard ability?



Instead of Hide in Plain Sight, how about the ability to reduce/ignore the -20 penalty for snipe-and-hide, along with perhaps the ability to reduce/ignore the penalty for accelerated movement while performing skill checks like Hide, Move Silently, Climb, Tumble, and Balance?
Ooh, I really like that. I'll add it tomorrow, when it's not 3 in the morning and my writings more likely to be coherent.



How about some ability to mitigate the distance penalty for making Spot checks, which is really the bane of a sniper under d&d rules? You might reduce the penalty from -1 per 10 ft. to -1 per 20 ft, 30 ft, 40 ft, etc as you advance in level.

For advanced recon, how about the ability to make unusual use of skills, like the ability to use social skills at a penalty even without a common language (through pantomime and innuendo)? Consider enhanced options for Survival and Gather Information, like moving at more than half speed while tracking or foraging, access to Track or Urban Tracking as a bonus feat, or the ability to use Gather Information discreetly by managing to overhear the right conversations, rather than directly asking questions. Perhaps the character could use Bluff or Hide in conjunction with Survival to blaze a trail that only his allies can see and use, enabling them to move quickly via overland travel through difficult regions while denying foes the ability to follow that same trail.

I also like those. Do you think they should be part of the over watch abilities or should the be given as fixed abilities? Part of the problem with this current design, I am beginning to notice, is that it's hard to tell how full a given level is. In retrospect, I realized that I could offload overwath and tactical shots to their own columns and the class would be left looking like it has a bunch of dead levels. At the same time, those are actual abilities that can be used at will and some of them are fairly potent...
Hrm.


Looking at your class mechanics, I'm really struggling with Focus Shot, Spotter, and Ricochet. I can tell generally what the ability does but the specifics of how you wrote it is confusing and difficult to interpret. You might consider redrafting those sections for clarity.
Alright, I'll give them a look. I wrote most of this fairly early in the morning because it was keeping me awake, so I wouldn't be surprised to find a few kinks. Are there any particular parts of those sections I should focus on or that gave you trouble?



I'm disappointed not to see Concentration on the skill list or involved with the class mechanics in a class whose them is focus. But I'll admit I haven't got any ideas on how you might integrate it.
Agreed, but the only ways I could think to do it either wouldn't have much of an effect, wouldn't scale well, or would be very easy to break. Unfortunately, concentration itself doesn't do much for mundane classes. I added autohypnosis, because it felt like the closest analog that would actually do something, though it still doesn't interact with the class itself. Maybe something will come up as I add more abilities.

Carl
2014-07-25, 07:30 AM
First problem, is that this class is capable of far more raw damage at a distance than anything but a blasty wizard. That's not inherently an issue, but it does have some effects i'll come back to.

The first thing i think you've forgotten is that there are 1-handed ranged weapons. This + dual wield capabilities makes it quite possible to throw away 2 attacks from one hand and 3 from the other. That works out at 63 SA dice from the main hand and 49 from the off hand if you go all the way to 20 with the class, going to 19 with a 1 level dip in rouge improves that to 72/56 and going for a 1 level dip in monk is 77/63. That works out at average damage of 392/448/490 respectively, at range, on standard actions. A 5/15 FS/Rouge, (A 2/3/15 FS/Fighter/Rouge would work too and give more feats to play with), setup can do even worse since it gets 10D6 Sneak Attack damage but 4 iterative giving it 90/70 for 560 Average. I'm sure there are combinations than can push it higher, but by this point nothing on level will survive getting hit once so it barely matters.

Now as i pointed out a blasty wizard can match or beat this whilst flying behind a windwall with all kinds of other defensive tricks, and is still considered T3 only. So on the one hand i don't have any issues with the damage. However it does make your Tactical Shot feature fairly weak because around half your options either aren't needed, or would be a waste to use when you can get extra damage dice to guarantee the target dies on the first shot. Obviously this pisses all over an rouge out there.

Also your Focus Shot actually over-scales things slightly at the top end. In practice a 2D6 enchantment on a +5 bow is working out at around 5D6's worth of damage, a bit more with a strength mod added on. But each attack sacrificed is giving an extra 14D6 at top end, obviously 7D6 of that is lost representing the sneak attack dice on the lost attack, but that still leaves you 2D6-Strength mod overscaled. It's not major but still, worth pointing out.

Likewise your saying that each attack lost is supposed to provide an amount of damage equal to that lost with the shot, but that's not what happens because in practice out of 4 iterative, you won't get more than 2 to hit reliably unless you super cheese out your attack roll or you get really lucky. That said i don't consider this an issue, iterative attacks are inherently awful, and anything that makes them worthwhile is awesome by me. (In fact most forms of bonus attack are awful but whatever). Still if that was your balance goal you overshot the mark by a couple hundred miles.

My only real balance concern with this class is that even without picking up specific items or feat chains or multi-classes you can push this to a very high damage output optimization level, without having to actually optimize. What super cheese players using combination a DM would ban can do doesn't really concern me it's what any decent chunk can do that worries me. This does have to be counterbalanced by the need to keep martial viable which as a rule means making the base level combat capabilities equivalent to a moderately optimized core martial, because core martial are just so weak by default, mostly because of the aforementioned iterative attacks issues. Basically the kind of damage output it can get is ok by me, but really should require more optimization.

The rest of the class is pretty decent though.

ace rooster
2014-07-25, 02:03 PM
The damage output out of the box seems a bit ott, and comparing it to a rogue full attacking is not fair. A rogue can only sneak attack at 30ft, and at that range they are very vulnerable (30ft is tiny, the long jump record is 29ft). To get that damage output they need to remain within that distance finding a way to get sneak attacks with the enemy aware of them. At level 8 with a decent build the sniper can be 400ft away (outside the range of many divinations, and with a +40 to hide checks) with a heavy crossbow with accuracy oil on it and a gnomish sight, (range inc 240ft, ignore penalty for the first, so no penalty to hit) invisibly studying his target for 3 rounds, then using his wand of truestike get an almost guarenteed hit that does 39d6 sneak attack damage. That was the surprise round. He then rehides with a +20 modifier (-20 for sniping, +40 for range), and slinks off.

It definately achieves what you set out to do, but is a bit too much. Death attack is underpowered, but compare a DC 18ish fort save or die to 39d6 damage, and a range of 30ft to a range of 420ft and you get the picture. At level 4 it can kill the tarrasque fairly easily. A pixie with even one level in this class is frankly terrifying (11d6 sneak attack out to 360ft without breaking sweat; elite array, no magic items).

Rereading the above I would suggest that they have to option of boosting damage or range, but not both (or rather a balance in between). That could give you some sneak attack damage at massive ranges, or terrifying damage close in, while not letting them get too silly.

ddude987
2014-07-25, 03:44 PM
I like the idea, this is a class I would certainly try out in a game. A few notes:

1. Conservation of Ammo comes in way to late. By level 13, ammo cost is hardly an issue.
2. Hide in Plain sight comes way to late as well. By level 17 the hide skill becomes nearly useless.
3. I am a little confused on how stacking up bonus sneak attack works on focusing targets and how losing it works as well.
4. The bonus feat feels arbitrary and lazy.
5. Why are these skills on the list: Appraise, Autohypnosis, Disable Device, Open Lock, Use Magic Device

Suggestions:
1. Have conservation of ammo come in much earlier, and maybe have it only work for mundane ammunition. Have it upgrade later to include magical ammunition.
2. Have hide in plain sight come earlier, perhaps add a later ability for turning invisible or something similar.
4. Add a few more bonus feats with a more specialized list (special sneak attack feats, darkstalker, et cetra) or take it out and add a few more class features.
5. I'm curious of the flavor decision behind including these skills. The disable device, open lock, and UMD skills are also a bit concerning as they seem to nullify a rogue to much for my taste. Also, I think adding Knowledge(Geography) would be good flavor for the class.

Other than that, the class seems solid. I like the concept a lot and it is well presented.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-25, 08:10 PM
Sorry for taking so long to reply, I've been slightly distracted today.


First problem, is that this class is capable of far more raw damage at a distance than anything but a blasty wizard. That's not inherently an issue, but it does have some effects i'll come back to.

The first thing i think you've forgotten is that there are 1-handed ranged weapons. This + dual wield capabilities makes it quite possible to throw away 2 attacks from one hand and 3 from the other. That works out at 63 SA dice from the main hand and 49 from the off hand if you go all the way to 20 with the class, going to 19 with a 1 level dip in rouge improves that to 72/56 and going for a 1 level dip in monk is 77/63. That works out at average damage of 392/448/490 respectively, at range, on standard actions. A 5/15 FS/Rouge, (A 2/3/15 FS/Fighter/Rouge would work too and give more feats to play with), setup can do even worse since it gets 10D6 Sneak Attack damage but 4 iterative giving it 90/70 for 560 Average. I'm sure there are combinations than can push it higher, but by this point nothing on level will survive getting hit once so it barely matters.

It's not meant to work with dual wielding, flurry or any of the other attack boosters that impact your accuracy, or splitting. I didn't do a good job writing that, so it's definitely one of the things I'll need to fix.

It's a bit problematic how well it multi-classes with anything that has SA, particularly if they have faster progressions. I hadn't thought of that. Currently, I see two ways to address the problem. Either I play with how capacity increases, so it's much more dependent on level and it starts at a lower value, or I rename it as Focus dice, which are mechanically the same but not interchangeable.

The first solution is nicer if someone wants to multi-class and if they can only get 1 or 2 stacks alongside a full rogue progression it shouldn't be as problematic.
The second solution makes any unplanned shenanigans a lot harder, but it means there won't be many things that interact with it at all, limiting build options and multi-classing.


However it does make your Tactical Shot feature fairly weak because around half your options either aren't needed, or would be a waste to use when you can get extra damage dice to guarantee the target dies on the first shot. Obviously this pisses all over an rouge out there.
Well, I definitely don't want the first of those and I'm not sure how acceptale the second is. I'm aiming for ~t3 which would be expected to be better then the t4 rogue. At the same time, I'm not sure if I want the disparity to be that great. I'll probably be tweaking the balance throughout, but do you have any suggestions for how to make the tactical shots more appealing?


Also your Focus Shot actually over-scales things slightly at the top end. In practice a 2D6 enchantment on a +5 bow is working out at around 5D6's worth of damage, a bit more with a strength mod added on. But each attack sacrificed is giving an extra 14D6 at top end, obviously 7D6 of that is lost representing the sneak attack dice on the lost attack, but that still leaves you 2D6-Strength mod overscaled. It's not major but still, worth pointing out.

Likewise your saying that each attack lost is supposed to provide an amount of damage equal to that lost with the shot, but that's not what happens because in practice out of 4 iterative, you won't get more than 2 to hit reliably unless you super cheese out your attack roll or you get really lucky. That said i don't consider this an issue, iterative attacks are inherently awful, and anything that makes them worthwhile is awesome by me. (In fact most forms of bonus attack are awful but whatever). Still if that was your balance goal you overshot the mark by a couple hundred miles.

My first goal is that it be balanced. After that, I'd like for them to receive some bonus for trading in their attacks, rather then it being a 1:1 transfer, but I'm not sure it should be overwhelming. I could slow their SA progression or drop the multiplier to 2. Do you think either of those would be a good idea?



My only real balance concern with this class is that even without picking up specific items or feat chains or multi-classes you can push this to a very high damage output optimization level, without having to actually optimize. What super cheese players using combination a DM would ban can do doesn't really concern me it's what any decent chunk can do that worries me. This does have to be counterbalanced by the need to keep martial viable which as a rule means making the base level combat capabilities equivalent to a moderately optimized core martial, because core martial are just so weak by default, mostly because of the aforementioned iterative attacks issues. Basically the kind of damage output it can get is ok by me, but really should require more optimization.

The rest of the class is pretty decent though.

I'm fine with things working out of the box, particularly with something new or unusual. That said, I don't want it to be unbalancing. Do you think the tweaks to damage and stacking are enough, or should there be something else?


The damage output out of the box seems a bit ott, and comparing it to a rogue full attacking is not fair. A rogue can only sneak attack at 30ft, and at that range they are very vulnerable (30ft is tiny, the long jump record is 29ft). To get that damage output they need to remain within that distance finding a way to get sneak attacks with the enemy aware of them. At level 8 with a decent build the sniper can be 400ft away (outside the range of many divinations, and with a +40 to hide checks) with a heavy crossbow with accuracy oil on it and a gnomish sight, (range inc 240ft, ignore penalty for the first, so no penalty to hit) invisibly studying his target for 3 rounds, then using his wand of truestike get an almost guarenteed hit that does 39d6 sneak attack damage. That was the surprise round. He then rehides with a +20 modifier (-20 for sniping, +40 for range), and slinks off.

It definately achieves what you set out to do, but is a bit too much. Death attack is underpowered, but compare a DC 18ish fort save or die to 39d6 damage, and a range of 30ft to a range of 420ft and you get the picture. At level 4 it can kill the tarrasque fairly easily. A pixie with even one level in this class is frankly terrifying (11d6 sneak attack out to 360ft without breaking sweat; elite array, no magic items).

Rereading the above I would suggest that they have to option of boosting damage or range, but not both (or rather a balance in between). That could give you some sneak attack damage at massive ranges, or terrifying damage close in, while not letting them get too silly.

That is a good point. Originally, I was thinking of giving them focus points, I might go back to that and make damage and range things they can spend points on. Alternatively, I could make it so that bonus damage gets cut in half for every range increment past the first they go. At the end of the day, I do want them to be able to attack from a good distance away, like a proper sniper, but they also shouldn't be able to kill things with impunity. Hrmm...


I like the idea, this is a class I would certainly try out in a game. A few notes:

1. Conservation of Ammo comes in way to late. By level 13, ammo cost is hardly an issue.
2. Hide in Plain sight comes way to late as well. By level 17 the hide skill becomes nearly useless.
3. I am a little confused on how stacking up bonus sneak attack works on focusing targets and how losing it works as well.
4. The bonus feat feels arbitrary and lazy.
5. Why are these skills on the list: Appraise, Autohypnosis, Disable Device, Open Lock, Use Magic Device

Suggestions:
1. Have conservation of ammo come in much earlier, and maybe have it only work for mundane ammunition. Have it upgrade later to include magical ammunition.
2. Have hide in plain sight come earlier, perhaps add a later ability for turning invisible or something similar.
4. Add a few more bonus feats with a more specialized list (special sneak attack feats, darkstalker, et cetra) or take it out and add a few more class features.
5. I'm curious of the flavor decision behind including these skills. The disable device, open lock, and UMD skills are also a bit concerning as they seem to nullify a rogue to much for my taste. Also, I think adding Knowledge(Geography) would be good flavor for the class.

Other than that, the class seems solid. I like the concept a lot and it is well presented.

HPS, Conserve, and the bonus feat were mostly thrown in to fill dead levels in the progression of their other abilities. I'm thinking of moving the overwatch and tactical shot progressions to their own columns and that would give me a lot more freedom to rearrange those abilities and hopefully remove the generic bonus feat. If you have any ideas for new abilities, I'd be happy to hear them.

As for the skills. They're mostly copied from the rogue, because they are meant to fill similar roles. That said, I am considering dropping them down to 6 points per level.

Autohypnosis is on there because I wanted them to have a skill related to focusing, but concentration is basically useless for mundanes.

Hanuman
2014-07-26, 12:09 AM
This is an interesting system!

A few things that immediately come to mind.

Focused sniper at the very least should be proficient with all projectile and thrown weapons, and be able to use all of them for precision damage.

I feel there can be a separation between a precise shot and a heavy shot, then you could load heavy shots with special goodies.

Because weapon damage is abstract (precision and critical damage are just examples of higher variance of this abstraction) it doesn't really matter how the numbers are represented outside of balance.

Honestly it probably would be better to work your precision damage's range at multiples of your weapon's range increment instead of a flat number (balancing thrown weapons vs crossbows and such), by spending a full-round action against a stationary target you could remove the max range for your precision damage entirely as if the situation caused a mundane Sniper's Shot spell effect.

A good option would be to have a flat damage heavy shot. Let's assume 1 SA die has 3.5 damage and you get +1SA/3lvl, using those 2 datapoints you have a safe +1dmg/level (+0.5-2dmg/level).

Honestly this is a totally reasonable datapoint when you account for the ways to improve this damage further.

However if you did not have a way to improve this damage further you could actually improve the flat damage, even to +2 while staying well within non-broken balance ranges even if used as a standard action.

This, unlike SA, does not need to be precision damage type, it could be either B/P/S or any element and still be totally fine. A bludgeoning damage could be the equivalent of loading a .50 round into a magic rifle, it doesn't matter as much where it hits because it would cause basically instant shock and then death with any squishy target or it would take huge chunks out of things even made of rock.

Thoughts?

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-26, 12:34 AM
This is an interesting system!
Thank you.


Focused sniper at the very least should be proficient with all projectile and thrown weapons, and be able to use all of them for precision damage.
They're already proficient with all projectile and throwing weapons, with the exception of exotic weapons. There's enough variance in exotic weapons that I'm not quite comfortable giving out blanket proficiency with them, though I did make an exception for guns.

SA damage isn't actually restricted by weapon type. They could actually use a dagger if they wanted to and, once I finish balancing the main version, I'm considering making a melee ACF.

Beyond that, I'm afraid that I don't quite understand what you mean. I few of the the things sounded interesting, but I'm not really sure how they're meant to connect.


I feel there can be a separation between a precise shot and a heavy shot, then you could load heavy shots with special goodies.

Are you saying I should make them choose between getting SA or Focus damage and rider effects? As it currently stands, they can trade SA damage for rider effects, though the list could use some expansion.


Because weapon damage is abstract (precision and critical damage are just examples of higher variance of this abstraction) it doesn't really matter how the numbers are represented outside of balance.
I think I agree with this.


Honestly it probably would be better to work your precision damage's range at multiples of your weapon's range increment instead of a flat number (balancing thrown weapons vs crossbows and such), by spending a full-round action against a stationary target you could remove the max range for your precision damage entirely as if the situation caused a mundane Sniper's Shot spell effect.
Unfortunately, unless I wanted to get into fractions, that would likely amplify the range problem that Ace Rooster pointed out. It would also drastically weaken throwing weapons, even though they're already significantly weaker.


A good option would be to have a flat damage heavy shot. Let's assume 1 SA die has 3.5 damage and you get +1SA/3lvl, using those 2 datapoints you have a safe +1dmg/level (+0.5-2dmg/level).

Honestly this is a totally reasonable datapoint when you account for the ways to improve this damage further.

However if you did not have a way to improve this damage further you could actually improve the flat damage, even to +2 while staying well within non-broken balance ranges even if used as a standard action.

Are you suggesting this as a bonus on a single shot attack? That would average out to 50 damage which is ~1/3-1/4 of what it needs to be. That said, a flat +2 damage bonus is an interesting alternative to SA dice. I hadn't thought of doing the as linear scaling like that.


This, unlike SA, does not need to be precision damage type, it could be either B/P/S or any element and still be totally fine. A bludgeoning damage could be the equivalent of loading a .50 round into a magic rifle, it doesn't matter as much where it hits because it would cause basically instant shock and then death with any squishy target or it would take huge chunks out of things even made of rock.


I do like the idea of it being able to model different types of weapons and I was tempted to broaden the restrictions on SA. As it stands, however, I just added a tactical shot that lets them ignore type restrictions. I guess you could say the SA dice represent the shock damage and the slightly lower damage of the tactical shot version represents chunks getting blown off a hardened target.

Hanuman
2014-07-26, 02:04 AM
I am more in favor of avoiding situational builds by allowing the presented options more usage.

When I talk damage I always mean a single shot attack, as that's the nature of the class, honestly I do not think the sniper should be able to even MAKE more than one attack, I would probably go with the unconventional method of not giving the sniper iterative attacks at all, or specifically disabling it with a class feature instead of adding damage by sacrificing attacks (less book keeping).

Taking a look at some cross-data, +3.5Dmg/Level datapoint from warlock works, but there are limited ways of improving this damage's ability to effect the target.

Rogues deal 1d6dmg/3level, that's 2dmg/level, they have the option of having gamebreaking numbers (you suggest 10dmg/level or 1d20/level), but the optimization there is not included in the class chassis.

What I did for Ozodrin is that I balanced the class and then added in a feat called Optimized Party which essentially re-balanced the class' base power to compete with powergamers, that way it keeps the player honest and keeps the other players and DM on the same page.

For range, I mean that the base range should start at 1 increment and improve in multiples of the increment (there are also ways to improve your weapon increment ranges). 10 increments for 10' sword throw would be 100', or 10 inc for a heavy crossbow would be 1200', or
This could be improved with more prep like a stationary target, studying the target, ect. Essentially an end-game sniper should be able to heavily damage whatever it can see.
Yes it would cause a crossbow or rifle to be more powerful for sniping long ranged targets... because that's how the weapons work in context and it's why you don't see snipers assessing targets with knife-mounted scopes at a 1 mile range :smallbiggrin:... though, magic flying knives... I'd put that in the "heavy" flat damage category.

For weapons I would include exotic and improvised with kind of a no-big-deal balancepoint, if not at level 1 then somewhere in the class. Sniping with throwing stars, boomerangs, chairs and rocks? Yes please!

Carl
2014-07-26, 03:29 AM
@Epsilon Rose. Not got time for a huge reply as work soon, (just got up, so tired), but if you haven't allready, read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0), especially the spoilered text in the FAQ section.

Basically you don't have to do more damage than a rouge to beat a rouge in power terms because raw damage isn't really the sole measure of power, versatility also matters, and that where this class really suffers, when it's not sniping stuff it does very little. p.s. the widely accepted best damage build for a rouge is dual wielding alchemical flasks, you can hardly miss, can easily get 7 throws a round at top level and bypass DR with all damage.

Dropping to a 2x damage multiplier would be far superior and you could absolutely cap the max number of dice to be multiplied separately. You'd still do gobs of damage, but it's not one shot territory, in fact it's well below that so that the other tactical shot options are much more attractive. Also making people choose between range and damage would be a good call as well.

@Hanuman: Rouges are 1D6 per 2 levels actually, not per 3.

Hanuman
2014-07-26, 04:22 AM
Assuming 1 die averages out to 3.5 SA damage, we can map the progression more accurately:

level 1 3.5
level 5 10.5
level 8 14
level 10 17.5
level 12 21
level 15 28 -- 8 to 48 dmg

28dmg/15level = 1.86dmg/level

At these numbers 2dmg/level is pretty close to the base damage for SA's average damage output.

Of course there are ways to improve this, so we can bump that up to 3dmg/level, and there are ways to attack multiple times so we can assume 4/level is still within fair play.

Having 4dmg/level flat on an an attack needs to either have a sustain mechanic or a situational and heavily invested usage. A caster, manifestor or initiator would have to expend considerable losses.

3dmg/level is totally fine, 2dmg/level is conservative and could be applied in situations where the sniper is disadvantaged such as running and gunning or attacking foes in close proximity.

Overall, it depends what you want to be able to interact with the damage output, if you want to be able to treat the attack as an "attack", make iterative attacks, buff up your shots with spells, magic items, ect then you'll have to account for those things in the base damage numbers. I am in favor of having more flat progression that is not so easily alterable, but I generally think eldrich blast is a better mechanic than SA in general so that's opinion for ya.

Dyhmas
2014-07-26, 07:11 AM
Hello! Great class there, always liked the idea of sniper archers, since I hate to do many rolls (and miss most, due to the penalties), hence I'll try to give some small input.

How about a little switch in the design, shifting the focus on SA (wich steps in the rogue's toes) and focus on raw damage build up and Criticals? Thoughts in random order follows:

-ok, forget SA. When you make an aimed shot you basically give up itteratives and add up their WEAPON damage (no strength bonus from mighty, for example). This way you make the whole crunch smaller and simpler by not having to worry about SA range and rules since all you need to do is score a crit.

-as a class feature, give improvements to aimed shot as you level (increase the threat range by +1 ever 6 lvls and the crit multiplier every 8 levels? Don't know, just a thought). Plus, perhaps, extra attack bonus (tie it to autohypnosis, allow for a test before using aimed shot to see how much attack bonus you can get, see the Knowledge Devotion feat for a good CD/bonus comparison) wich can be used either to guarantee a hit against a high CA target or to convert into damage trough a Power Attack-esque feat.

-now, take the space left by the SA feature and add in another resorce (some aim pool?) that refreshes constantly (full at start of combat and more with each kill/critical) wich you can use to improve your aimed shot (ignore cover, concealment, DR, called shots, pinning shots and other goodies...).

-this way, even if you can't crit a target (undead, ugh) you can still use your point pool goodies to dish out other things besides damage.

-as I type this, I realize that avoiding crit immunity ain't really that hard, some spells do that, right?

Now, unto out-of-combat versatility:

-how about a "recon" sorts of feature, based on the assassin death attack feature? You basically "observe" a target for a few rounds and, when you report back to your team mates, you grant them bonuses against said target...not only in combat stuff but also in skills, perhaps?

That's all I can think of, right now, not very tidy, I know. My thoughts rarely are. :smallwink:

Good job and keep going!

-Dyhmas

andreichekov
2014-07-26, 07:42 PM
Steady Shot
Cost: 2d6
You have learned to weight and dampen your arrows against arcane interference. Your arrow can ignore effects, like windwall and protection from arrows, that would normally hamper ranged weapons specifically.
This one is fine.


Weakening Shot
Cost: 2d6
You have learned to coat your arrows with special abrasives and irritants. A successful hit from you arrow will lower a creature's damage reduction by 1 and energy resistance by 2 for 1 round. This has no effect on a creature that is immune to a type of damage or energy.
Special: This shot can be applied multiple times. Itís effects stack

this is worthless. if you lower a creatures damage reduction by 1, then you can deal 1 more damage. Or, you could just use 2 more SA dice and deal 2d6 more damage. If you want this to actually matter, it needs to be at least 10 DR removed, and cost only 1d6


Reliable Shot
Cost: 1d6
Certain creatures would seem to lack vital points, but thatís not really the case and youíve figured out how to bypass their seeming immunity. Your sneak attack can affect a creature that is normally immune to sneak attacks. This does not make them vulnerable to a critical hit, however.
this one is really good, and seems to be the best out of them. you could actually make this one cost 3d6, and it would still be the best.


Vicious Shot
Cost: 5d6
You have learned how to target your arrows in a particularly vicious manner. Your shot deal normal damage to creatures with regeneration.
this one... you get to lose 5d6 to do something that you can already do... regeneration is not some god ability. You can shoot creatures with regeneration, and they take non-lethal damage. Then, when they are down, you coup de grace them until they are actually dead. this should cost 1d6 because it doesn't really do anything, it just removes a turn of coup de grace


Suppressing Shot
Cost: 3d6
Youíve learned that sometimes itís better to aim for effect, rather than damage. A creature targeted by your arrow, whether or not it hits, must make a will save with a DC of 10+int+1/2lv or become suppressed. A suppressed creature takes -4 to their attack rolls and can only move at half speed. Suppression lasts for 1 round. Alternatively, a creature that failed its save, but was not hit, may opt to instead take the hit at half damage and not be suppressed.
Special: Suppressing Shot can be applied a second time; itís effects do not stack. Instead, in addition to itís other effects, a creature who is suppressed can only take a move or a standard action and must seek cover if it is available.
interesting, but the wording is really clunky. also, you can't stack it with itself because it lasts for 1 round
try this
You've learned that sometiems it's better to aim for effect, rather than damage. A creature targeted by an arrow enhanced with this ability must make a will save with a DC of 10 + Dex(because it is your ability to shoot) +1/2 HD or take a -4 penalty to attack rolls, and a -1/2 penalty to their move speed. This lasts for two rounds. If a creature fails its save, but was not hit, it may instead take half the damage of the hit to avoid the effects of this ability.


Bursting Shot
Cost: 2d6
You have learned to rig your arrows so they split into multiple projectiles in mid air. Instead of targeting a single creature, you may make separate attacks against each creature in a 5ft burst. Weapon damage is applied to these creatures normally, but sneak attack dice must be split between targets.
Special: This shot can be applied multiple times. Each application increases the radius of the burst by 5ft
this multiplies game time for not much reward. It is better if you use the same attack roll for each creature. also, a 5 ft burst is one creature. that is the square they occupy.


Line Shot
Cost: 6d6
You have learned how to harden your arrows, allowing them to pierce through multiple targets. You may make an attack against all targets in a line equal to 1 range increment from your first target. This does not allow you to hit targets beyond your maximum range and penalties for multiple range increments apply normally.
Special: This shot can be used with ricochet, but each bounce after piercing starts causes all subsequent movement to cost double (so x2 after the first bounce, x3 after the second, and so on). No matter how many times you bounce a shot through them, you may only target each enemy once per shot.
Special: This shot can be used with Bursting Shot. Each application of bursting shot increases the width of the line by 5ft and sneak attack dice must be divided between columns, not individual targets.

this is really weak. worth more like 3d6 if you want it to be pricy. Also, do your SA work on each creature in the line? you should define that because most people won't know the answer


Countercast Shot
Cost: 3d6
You have learned to target your shots in a way that is extremely disruptive to mystic energies. Instead of firing your shot immediately, you hold it ready until a spell caster within your line of sight attempts to cast a spell, at which point you may fire it at them if you so choose. Any damage done by this shot it multiplied by 1.5 when determining the DC of their concentration check to successfully cast the spell. Even if you miss, they must still make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10+lv or lose the spell. You may ready multiple shots in this way, but shots only stay readied until the beginning of your next turn and can not be used for any other purpose.
Do they have to make that concentration check if you hit?


Sundering Shot
Cost:2d6
Youíve learned that sometimes the best way to defeat an enemy is to destroy their equipment. You may attempt to sunder an opponentís equipment with your shot. If you hit, you do full damage to their equipment.
Special: If you have the ranged sunder feat, you instead do double damage.
interesting.


Tripping Shot
Cost: 2d6
Sometimes you really want someone to just sit down. Thatís why youíve developed this shot. If your attack hits, you may make a trip attempt at a +2 bonus.
this is not worth 2d6 sneak attack dice. as it is, it is never good. if it were 1d6 cost and use your dex instead of str for the trip, then it would be useful sometimes


Buffeting Shot
Cost: 2d6
Youíve learned to make people go away. If your attack hits, you may attempt to bullrush your target. Use your Intelligence instead of your strength and the size of your weapon instead of your size. You may also designate a number of sneak attack dice to add a bonus to your check, rather than damage. These dice must be chosen before you make your attack. You can not push a target more than 5ft beyond your range limit, regardless of how far your attempt might normally be able to push them.
Special: You may use this shot with ricochet to change which direction your arrow came from and, subsequently, which direction they are pushed. If you angle your shot to come from below, they are pushed straight up. In this case, they only move half the normal distance, but take appropriate falling damage when they land and must make a reflex save with a DC of 10+1/2lv or fall prone.
we loves it. probably worth more than 2d6 though


Pinning Shot
Cost: 2d6
Youíve learned how to make people stay still. If your attack hits, you may make a ranged grapple attempt against an opponent by pinning a bit of it's clothing to a nearby surface. The target must be within 5' of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck. Make an opposed grapple check (using your weaponís size in place of your own). You may also designate a number of sneak attack dice to add a bonus to your check, rather than damage. These dice must be chosen before you make your attack.

To break free, the victim must make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape artist check as a standard action.

Finally, if not used to pin a target, this technique can be used to create hand holds in a surface.

Special: If this shot is used in conjunction with Buffeting Shot or Wing Clipping shot, you may attempt to pin your opponent at any point during their motion.

we loves this also. still too cheap


Wing Clipping Shot
Cost: 2d6
Youíve learned how to attach wire and twine to your arrows, such that when they hit a flying target they cause it to lose altitude and possibly become ground bound. If you hit your target they lose 10ft of altitude. If this causes them to hit the ground, they take falling damage as appropriate and must make reflex save with a DC of 10+int+1/2lv or lose the ability to fly for 1 round.
Special: This ability may be applied multiple times. Each time itís applied, increase the distance fallen by 10ft and the number of rounds a target canít fly by 1.
this sounds like you have to have wire and twine to do this.


Ghost Shot
Cost: 5d6
Never again will you have to contend with an incorporeal opponent simply avoiding your slings and arrows. Your shot now ignores miss chance from incorporeality and half of the miss chance from spells like blur.
this is really bad. 1d6 should be the cost

perhaps a disarm shot?

Gnomes2169
2014-07-26, 09:03 PM
The Focus Sniper
Most archers, crossbowmen, and would be snipers focus more on how many projectiles they can put down range, with little regard for precision or their allies. They are not Focus Snipers.
Unlike most rangers, Focus snipers are highly trained, elite, units that specialize is long range precision damage, battlefield tactics and reconnaissance. In combat, they operate by forgoing multiple attacks in exchange for bonus damage and trading bonus damage for special effects. Out of combat they are capable of granting their allies long term buffs and new abilities.
Seems suitably fluffy... But that's not what I'm here for, is it? :smalltongue:


Abilities: Focus Snipers tend to focus on intelligence and dexterity. Intelligence boosts their DCs, lets them stack more Sneak Attack die, and increases the number of allies they can effect with overwatch. Dexterity increases their ac and initiative as well as their ability to hit their targets.
Hmmmm, I personally enjoy classes that only need one stat, but two can work, and I can see how this fits (fluff wise)... Still, the optimizer in me wants everything to just scale off of dex... Ah well, I'll get over it.


GAME RULE INFORMATION
Focus Snipers's have the following game statistics.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
1. Thank god, free alignments.
2. While the class is purely mundane, I suppose the d8 fits for the role (especially given the next section). That should give them the necessary HP to not get super-murdered once enemies actually realize they are there, but not too much to make them overly-tanky.


Class Skills
The Focus Sniper's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are:
[/B] Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (wis), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History) Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points at First Level: (8 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier
Holy skill points batman! I don't have too much to say here... but given that they are a sniper (and thus supposedly hidden and more in the background), I think that maybe Perform might not fit fluff-wise. Maybe switch it for something like Knowledge (Dungeoneering) or (Geography), to demonstrate the sniper's knowledge of his surroundings?


Focus Sniper


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special

Sneak Attack


1st
+1
+0
+2
+0
Focus Shot, Sneak Attack

1d6


2nd
+2
+0
+3
+0
Tactical Shot(1)

1d6


3rd
+3
+1
+3
+1
Overwatch (1)

1d6


4th
+4
+1
+4
+1
Tactical Shot(2)

2d6


5th
+5
+1
+4
+1
Spotter (1st)

2d6


6th
+6/+1
+2
+5
+2
Tactical Shot(3), Overwatch (2)

2d6


7th
+7/+2
+2
+5
+2
Ricochet

3d6


8th
+8/+3
+2
+6
+2
Tactical Shot(4)

3d6


9th
+9/+4
+3
+6
+3
Overwatch (3)

3d6


10th
+10/+5
+3
+7
+3
Tactical Shot(5), Spotter (2nd)

4d6


11th
+11/+6/+1
+3
+7
+3
Double Overwatch

4d6


12th
+12/+7/+2
+4
+8
+4
Tactical Shot(6), Overwatch (4)

4d6


13th
+13/+8/+3
+4
+8
+4
Conservation of Ammo

5d6


14th
+14/+9/+4
+4
+9
+4
Tactical Shot(7)

5d6


15th
+15/+10/+5
+5
+9
+5
Overwatch (5), Spotter (3rd)

5d6


16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+5
+10
+5
Tactical Shot(8)

6d6


17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+5
+10
+5
Hide in Plain Sight

6d6


18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+6
+11
+6
Tactical Shot(9), Overwatch (6)

6d6


19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+6
+11
+6
Bonus Feat

7d6


20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+6
+12
+6
Tactical Shot(10), Spotter (4th)

7d6


And there is a class table. Yaaaay. Good BAB progression (which might get a little silly with the Focused Shot ability), might not see too much use due to the future class abilities, but good to have in case you want to just shoot something repeatedly. Good reflex is standard for the class archetype... and good sneak attack progression is always nice for the sneak/ ranged DPS/ skill monkey. As for the class features... I'm going to have to go through each of them individually below.


Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Marksmen.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:A focus sniper is proficient with all simple weapons and all martial weapons that have range increments. Additionally, if guns exist, snipers are proficient with handguns and long arms, even if they would normally be exotic weapons.

Focus snipers are only proficient with light armor and no shields.
Huh... interesting. Maybe they should be proficient with all weapons that have a range increment? After all, the sniper is supposed to be the mater of ranged weaponry, you might as well just give them everything. :smalltongue:


Sneak Attack: If a focus sniper can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The sniperís attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the sniper flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every three sniper levels there after. Should the sniper score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 60 feet.

A sniper can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomiesóundead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The sniper must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A sniper cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.
Seems pretty standard, though a way to increase the range of your sneak attacks might be nice later on... Being able to sneak attack along any point of your ranged weapon would be nice.


Focus Shot: A focus sniper may forgo a number of attacks equal to her int mod + her class level/4 to focus on a target. For every attack she forgoes she may multiply the number of sneak attack dice she receives on one attack against that target by 3 and the range at which she may make sneak attacks by 2. Bonus dice need not be spent immediately, but they must all apply to the same attack.
I would just like to take this moment to point out that range is in increments of 5', not 2'. Also, that x3 sneak attack dice per attack skipped is sort of crazy... XD But more on that later.


A sniper may only focus on 1 creature at a time. She must declare what creature she is focusing on before she forgoes her attacks and if she changes targets before firing all of her accumulated bonus dice are lost. If a sniper forgoes attacks when making a full attack with multiple iterative attacks, she forgoes lower iterative attacks first, even if she declares she is forgoing them before attacking and she does not need to actually be able to take an attack in order to forgo it. She may also attack a creature other than the one she is focusing on without losing focus.

A sniper may only focus on a target she has line of sight to. Every round she does not forgo at least 1 attack to focus on her target, she loses 1 bonus dice. If she does not have line of sight to her target, she instead loses 2 bonus dice.

A sniper may not forgo additional attacks from rapid shot or many shot to gain bonus dice, nor may she use such an attack to fire a focus shot. Those techniques rely on firing quickly, at the expense of accuracy, while focus shots function by pinpointing the most vulnerable points on a target and firing with extreme accuracy. Similarly, extra attacks from splitting canít be forgone to gain bonus dice, since itís just the result of the arrow splitting mid air. A splitting attack can, however, be used to fire a focus shot, but only one arrow carries the bonus damage.
So then, an over-all review of the ability... It seems a bit odd, and strong. The scaling of the ability ramps up insanely. Even just delaying an attack for a single round at level 1 will give the sniper 3d6 damage on an attack, which is 1-shot territory by itself against the vast majority of creatures CR 1-2, and with weapon damage added in ends CR 3 monsters with very, very little effort. If spotted before the battle begins, one monster will be dead before battle begins in the surprise round (with just one round of delay... let's just keep it at one round for now), and with a high initiative from their dex bonus the focus sniper will likely hit another creature with their normal sneak attack damage before they get a chance to react. Likely, this will end an encounter before it even begins, leaving the rest of the party to mop-up duty.

Now, I'm not going to talk about the scaling of delaying multiple rounds/ forgoing multiple attacks because as I said... the ability is odd. I'm not sure if it continues to multiply it by 3 every forgone attack, (so x3, x9, x27, etc, etc) or if it multiplies the damage dice and adds them to a pool (so at level 1, the first delayed round would be 3d6, second would be 6d6, third would be 9d6, etc...) The first one is just flat out crazy, and I would suggest switching it immediately. The second one.. is a bit more sane, and still keeps really, really good damage output at higher levels (Since even a single attack delayed at level 20 rockets the sneak attack damage up to 21d6, and you can forgo three of them... giving you 63d6 damage on any one attack. Which, I think most people would agree, is pretty good... and that's without taking feats/ getting items/ delaying multiple turns before the battle begins to increase the amount of SA dice you get to roll.)

The very slow loss of bonus dice is not likely to come into play, and even if it does... it won't do all too much to the damage output of the alpha strike. hile I like the loss of focus and what it means, either it needs to disappear faster, or it just needs to disappear entirely once you lose LoS, but remain constant so long as you can see your target.

Also... while good for an alpha-strike, the usability of this ability is a bit limited. The enemy cannot see you coming, you have to go before them, or you have to force them to be flat footed or somehow helpless. As well, it has the same problem as normal sneak attacks, since it is literally just a better sneak attack. :smalltongue: This means that there are many, many creatures that will be able to ignore this threat, which makes them just another ranged attacker... and thus not all that effective in battle. Since this is the class's main gimick, you may want to figure out how to get around that... But I'll get to that later.

Oh, and one last note... I would suggest calling it Focused Shot instead, sinc that just sounds better to my ear, but that's personal taste there. :smalltongue:


Tactical Shot (Ex): Sometimes, simply shooting a target isnít enough. At second level and every subsequent even level, a focus sniper may learn to use a tactical shot from the following list. Each tactical shot costs a number of sneak attack die to use. If applied to a focus shot, this number is subtracted after calculating bonus die. Multiple Tactical Shots may be applied to a single arrow and a target need not be vulnerable to sneak attacks for a tactical shot to apply. If an arrow has splitting, tactical shots may only be applied to 1 half of it.
Alright, so I have gone through these already, and I'll go through each one individually, but I would like to point out just one thing... this feature is entirely tied to the sneak attack function, and once again, this is a problem for its usability. Some (if not most) of these should be able to affect or harm creatures that cannot be affected by a sneak attack, so something that can forgo this weakness might be nice. Again, more on this later...

[QUOTE=Epsilon Rose;17811029]
Steady Shot
Cost: 2d6
You have learned to weight and dampen your arrows against arcane interference. Your arrow can ignore effects, like windwall and protection from arrows, that would normally hamper ranged weapons specifically.
-Useful, but also very specific. The cost seems good for what it does, but I don't see this being taken with any priority as it stands. Perhaps if it ignored cover as well it would have more practical ability, but... that's just a suggestion

Weakening Shot
Cost: 2d6
You have learned to coat your arrows with special abrasives and irritants. A successful hit from you arrow will lower a creature's damage reduction by 1 and energy resistance by 2 for 1 round. This has no effect on a creature that is immune to a type of damage or energy.
Special: This shot can be applied multiple times. Itís effects stack
-This needs a buff... a rather, substantial, and major, one. As it stands, you are giving up an average of 7 damage so that you can allow allies to deal up to 3 more damage (And even then, only if the ally uses a weapon like a flaming burst sword that deals weapon and energy damage simultaniously). That is not a good rate of exchange, since for most characters/ parties that will require either 7 attack or 4 DD spells to break even. I would suggest that you lower the cost to 1d6, increase the DR reduction to 2 and increase the ER reduction to 4 (the second one isn't all that strong unless you are running straight into enemies that all have substantial ER that counters your blaster's energy damage, so it can be a bit higher than your average sacrificed sneak attack damage). Otherwise, as it stands, I would rather spend my 10d6 sneak attack dice just killing the creature with DR 5 instead of getting rid of that tiny amount of DR...

Reliable Shot
Cost: 1d6
Certain creatures would seem to lack vital points, but thatís not really the case and youíve figured out how to bypass their seeming immunity. Your sneak attack can affect a creature that is normally immune to sneak attacks. This does not make them vulnerable to a critical hit, however.
-This one... actually, I don't know how this one would work, since technically you have to be able to affect a creature with a sneak attack before you could use one of these abilities... Honestly, I would just make this one a stand alone ability. (As explained below)

Vicious Shot
Cost: 5d6
You have learned how to target your arrows in a particularly vicious manner. Your shot deal normal damage to creatures with regeneration.
-Useful, but far too expensive. I would set it to 3d6 or 2d6, since regenerating enemies are somewhat rare and there are always ways to penetrate their regeneration anyway.

Suppressing Shot
Cost: 3d6
Youíve learned that sometimes itís better to aim for effect, rather than damage. A creature targeted by your arrow, whether or not it hits, must make a will save with a DC of 10+int+1/2lv or become suppressed. A suppressed creature takes -4 to their attack rolls and can only move at half speed. Suppression lasts for 1 round. Alternatively, a creature that failed its save, but was not hit, may opt to instead take the hit at half damage and not be suppressed.
Special: Suppressing Shot can be applied a second time; itís effects do not stack. Instead, in addition to itís other effects, a creature who is suppressed can only take a move or a standard action and must seek cover if it is available.
-This one is pretty much perfect... though the option to ignore the suppression by taking half of the damage instead is kind of wonky. Eh, we'll just chalk that up to personal taste.

Bursting Shot
Cost: 2d6
You have learned to rig your arrows so they split into multiple projectiles in mid air. Instead of targeting a single creature, you may make separate attacks against each creature in a 5ft burst. Weapon damage is applied to these creatures normally, but sneak attack dice must be split between targets.
Special: This shot can be applied multiple times. Each application increases the radius of the burst by 5ft
-And this is one of those ones that should work whether or not you are targeting an enemy immune to sneak attacks. That being said, I like it, and I think it fits the cost.

Line Shot
Cost: 6d6
You have learned how to harden your arrows, allowing them to pierce through multiple targets. You may make an attack against all targets in a line equal to 1 range increment from your first target. This does not allow you to hit targets beyond your maximum range and penalties for multiple range increments apply normally.
Special: This shot can be used with ricochet, but each bounce after piercing starts causes all subsequent movement to cost double (so x2 after the first bounce, x3 after the second, and so on). No matter how many times you bounce a shot through them, you may only target each enemy once per shot.
Special: This shot can be used with Bursting Shot. Each application of bursting shot increases the width of the line by 5ft and sneak attack dice must be divided between columns, not individual targets.
-The only comment I have for this one is, lower the cost to something more along the lines of 4d6... since while it is useful, it is not really all that powerful in terms of raw damage. Well... unless you get to apply your sneak attack damage to each attack. As it stands, however, the line does not currently have that function, so it's just the weapon damage + enhancement bonus + whatever damage bonus you might get from having a compound bow and a high str score. Likely something along the line of 1d8+7... maybe +8. This is not the most powerful of all lines, as you might suspect, so a lower cost is actually not only acceptable, but warranted.

Countercast Shot
Cost: 3d6
You have learned to target your shots in a way that is extremely disruptive to mystic energies. Instead of firing your shot immediately, you hold it ready until a spell caster within your line of sight attempts to cast a spell, at which point you may fire it at them if you so choose. Any damage done by this shot it multiplied by 1.5 when determining the DC of their concentration check to successfully cast the spell. Even if you miss, they must still make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10+lv or lose the spell. You may ready multiple shots in this way, but shots only stay readied until the beginning of your next turn and can not be used for any other purpose.
-Haha... and this is how you counter wizards. :smalltongue: Maybe add in a note that the attack roll is resolved before the wizard can react, so they can't just celerity their way out of there...

Sundering Shot
Cost:2d6
Youíve learned that sometimes the best way to defeat an enemy is to destroy their equipment. You may attempt to sunder an opponentís equipment with your shot. If you hit, you do full damage to their equipment.
Special: If you have the ranged sunder feat, you instead do double damage.
-Seems to be rather straight forward and useful. Good ability.

Tripping Shot
Cost: 2d6
Sometimes you really want someone to just sit down. Thatís why youíve developed this shot. If your attack hits, you may make a trip attempt at a +2 bonus.
-The trip's bonus isn't all that high... maybe make it scale off of your int bonus instead of a flat +2. After all, a trip check scales off of a d20+BAB+Str normally, and it's an opposed roll, so against most mundane melees, or most large monsters, this will not see much use. Also, another ability that shouldn't require a target to be vulnerable to sneak attacks. :smalltongue:

Buffeting Shot
Cost: 2d6
Youíve learned to make people go away. If your attack hits, you may attempt to bullrush your target. Use your Intelligence instead of your strength and the size of your weapon instead of your size. You may also designate a number of sneak attack dice to add a bonus to your check, rather than damage. These dice must be chosen before you make your attack. You can not push a target more than 5ft beyond your range limit, regardless of how far your attempt might normally be able to push them.
Special: You may use this shot with ricochet to change which direction your arrow came from and, subsequently, which direction they are pushed. If you angle your shot to come from below, they are pushed straight up. In this case, they only move half the normal distance, but take appropriate falling damage when they land and must make a reflex save with a DC of 10+1/2lv or fall prone.
-This one... actually might need more of a cost, oddly enough. I'd set it to 4d6 at least, since you can pretty much keep an enemy away from you forever.

Pinning Shot
Cost: 2d6
Youíve learned how to make people stay still. If your attack hits, you may make a ranged grapple attempt against an opponent by pinning a bit of it's clothing to a nearby surface. The target must be within 5' of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck. Make an opposed grapple check (using your weaponís size in place of your own). You may also designate a number of sneak attack dice to add a bonus to your check, rather than damage. These dice must be chosen before you make your attack.

To break free, the victim must make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape artist check as a standard action.

Finally, if not used to pin a target, this technique can be used to create hand holds in a surface.

Special: If this shot is used in conjunction with Buffeting Shot or Wing Clipping shot, you may attempt to pin your opponent at any point during their motion.
-My only comment here is, consistent formatting. In this case, I'm talking about paragraph spacing (which if you look up at buffeting shot just above this one, you will see is a bit different). Decide if you want a space in between your paragraphs or not and stick to it. Other than that, this technique seems to be pretty solid.

Wing Clipping Shot
Cost: 2d6
Youíve learned how to attach wire and twine to your arrows, such that when they hit a flying target they cause it to lose altitude and possibly become ground bound. If you hit your target they lose 10ft of altitude. If this causes them to hit the ground, they take falling damage as appropriate and must make reflex save with a DC of 10+int+1/2lv or lose the ability to fly for 1 round.
Special: This ability may be applied multiple times. Each time itís applied, increase the distance fallen by 10ft and the number of rounds a target canít fly by 1.
-Since targets can fly really, really high, I might consider dropping the cost to 1d6... but that's really it, and just a suggestion at that.

Ghost Shot
Cost: 5d6
Never again will you have to contend with an incorporeal opponent simply avoiding your slings and arrows. Your shot now ignores miss chance from incorporeality and half of the miss chance from spells like blur.
-Again, a really good ability... and I think it fits the cost. Maybe it would be better at 4d6, but it's alright regardless of what you set it at.




Overwatch(Ex): You have been trained to keep a keen eye on the battlefield and call out tactical instructions to your allies. Starting at 3rd level and every 3 levels after that, a focus sniper may learn 1 overwatch technique from the following list. A sniper may activate an overwatch technique as a swift action, at which point a number of allies, up to her class level plus her intelligence modifier, who can hear the sniper (or otherwise receive communications from her) gain itís benefits until she decides to activate a new overwatch technique. A sniper counts as her own ally and is always considered to be able to receive communications from herself. All numerical bonuses from overwatch techniques are competence bonuses, even if this would not normally be possible.

A sniper may only have 1 overwatch technique active at a given time, until she reaches level 11, at which point she may keep 2 techniques active.
First off, bold the name. :smalltongue: Otherwise, I would suggest just increasing the bonus provided by these techniques across the board, since for most of them the max bonus is +3. I'm not going to go through each one individually (all of them are rather good) but the AC/ Damage/ Attack/ other currently 1/2 SA techniques should be full SA instead (bringing the max to +7) and the skill bonuses should be SAx1.5 (Making it a max of +10).


Spotter(Ex): Starting at level 5, you may designate 1 willing creature as your spotter. This take 10 minutes of explaining what the role entails and what you need them to do. From then on, as long as they are able to intelligibly communicate with you, you may draw line of sight as if you were them, in addition to yourself. This means, not only are you able to draw line of sight from their square, but if they can see an opponent you can not (for example, if they have see invisibility and you do not) you may treat that opponent as if you could see them when drawing line of sight from your spotter. Conversely, if you can see an opponent that they can not (for example, if you rolled higher on your spot check) you may not draw line of sight from your spotter.

Every 5 levels after 5th, you may have another active spotter. Spotters may relay instructions through each other, but you take a -1 penalty to attack for reach relay necessary to reach you.
*Each relay, not reach relay. :smalltongue: Other than that, an interesting ability, though rather niche. I would like to see the spotters get some kind of advantage as well (say, getting a bonus to their spot/ listen/ search checks equal to your int mod due to your tutelage or something like that).


Ricochet(Ex): Lining up shots can get finicky sometimes. Thereís not always a straight line between you and your target that lacks annoying obstructions like trees, walls, and your allies. Fortunately, youíve learned how to ricochet your shots off most of those. Starting at level 7, you may bounce your projectiles off of any hard and stationary surface, even a forewarned allieís shield. You may make any number of bounces in an attempt to draw a line to your opponent, though each bounce counts as 5ft of movement in itís own right.

You suffer a cumulative -2 penalty to your shot for every bounce you or a spotter cannot see, though you can still make the shot if you or a spotter are familiar with the terrain. If an enemy has cover or total cover, you may ignore their cover, provided you can draw a valid line to them, but they will have an equivalent amount of concealment, unless you have a spotter that can see them.
Huh... so you get rid of the miss chance by lowering your attack slightly. Interesting... but not all too powerful, and rather niche. Honestly, most battles this will not come into effect... but it's nice to have when it does.


Conservation of Ammo(Ex): Youíve finally learned to be careful with your ammo. Starting at Lv13, your ammo is no longer destroyed when you fire it (unless itís designed to explode on a hit, or otherwise only function once). However, an enemy may destroy a piece of ammo that is in an adjacent square (or lodged in their body) as part of a move action. They may only do this once per move action.
Again, bolding. :smalltongue: Also, this ability should really come a lot earlier, say level 5-7 or so. Waiting until level 13 to be able to reuse your arrows sucks, and reusing arrows (unless they are super duper super arrows) is not game breaking even starting level 1.


Hide in Plain Sight(Ex): Beginning at 17th level, you may use the hide skill, even when youíre being observed.
Always useful, but again, I would suggest getting this earlier (say at level 13, where ammo conservation currently sits).


Bonus Feat: At level 19, a focus fighter may choose 1 bonus feat for which they qualify.
Having your pre-capstone ability be a bonus feat (and the only bonus feat you get)... really isn't all that good. I would first off suggest that you think of a different ability to put here (say, some kind of situation awareness ability that allows you to target an opponent's touch AC with your attacks and keeps any non-magically concealed creature from hiding from you/ any creature from hiding from you) And secondly I suggest that if you are going to give bonus feats, you start giving them a bit earlier. Say, level 5, 12 and 19 instead of just 19. Just a thought.


Supreme Focus(Ex): You have honed your focus to a terrifying edge. You are always gathering information and assessing targets, even when focusing on something else. At 20th level, once per day, you may act as if you had forgone 1 attack in each of the preceding rounds of the current encounter for the purpose of determining bonus dice on each of your attacks this round, regardless of who you target or how many attacks you make, even if your target joined the fight midway through. These bonus dice do not stack with normal bonus dice, nor do they persist after your turn ends.
Potentially massive, but not game breaking unless you can force a foe to lose their dex bonus... which, you have the ability to do with your techniques, I suppose. Honestly though, I am a bit underwhelmed by this ability. Maybe if you were able to focus all enemies within your weapon's range increment when you activated this ability (and thus be able to use those focus dice on EVERYONE) it would be better, but at the moment you don't seem to have a way to do that, and all of those extra focus dice can only be spent on one target. As far as capstones go... that's not all too good.

If I had to make a suggestion, I would say to add in that while it is active, Supreme Focus allows you to focus on all enemy creatures for one round and allows you to count any attacks made on them as sneak attacks even if they are not flat footed or otherwise denied their dex bonus to AC. This, combined with the rather substantial amount of sneak attack dice you will get added to your pool, would make the ability far more diverse and usable.
Now then, the largest current problem with the class is that it relies on the use of Sneak Attack... which means that there are multiple creature types that can flat out nope almost all of the class's most powerful abilities, and that after the first round, damage output plummets. A few things that I could suggest to help out...

Making your bonus sneak attack dice into a focus pool that you can spend on either increasing your sneak attack dice or on the technique abilities that the sniper chooses. That way you have two separate pools, and one of them isn't shut down by the enemy just being immune/ not flat footed. Another way to get around the sneak attack immunity problem is... well, make a class ability that allows the sniper to make sneak attacks against a creature type that is normally immune to them. Perhaps starting at level 4 (and every 4th level after), they choose from Undead, Ooze, Construct, Plant, or Elemental (The big 5 creature types immune to sneak attack), allowing the Sniper to deal full sneak attack damage and land critical hits. This second one would likely replace reliable shot, since it would function roughly the same, but with the added bonus of landing crits and not spending any extra sneak attack on the chosen creature types.

For the lowered damage after round 1 problem, maybe add in an ability that lets the focus sniper to add his int mod to the damage he deals to creatures he is focusing on. Just a small bonus that should let the focus sniper keep his damage output consistent, and gives more use for the sniper's int score.

The class skills give the sniper quite a bit of versatility outside of combat, so you should be good in that department... and given the archetype of focus and steadiness that goes along with the name "sniper", I don't think the class's lower mobility is really a problem... however, perhaps you could give the Sniper an ability (like steady hands or something) that gives the sniper a bonus to attacks launched when he doesn't move, and maybe some other abilities that give bonuses to the sniper if he's entrenched behind cover or something like that? Something like this would make the sniper's play style a bit more unique, and give the sniper more tactical options/ allow them to play more with the environment if these abilities are properly implemented.

Hanuman
2014-07-26, 09:31 PM
This has sparked me to actually focus on the ozodrin's ranged options for version2.2Hotfix3 version 2.3

Added this very good feat, as a tribute (PEACH):

Sniper - [ Aberrant ]
Requires: Organ or Spike Feature, Ozodrin Level 5

As a swift action you may enter or exit Sniper mode, when in sniper mode you may not make more than one attack per round and you may designate one creature as your Mark at any time, you may only have one Mark at a time and may not have a mark outside of sniper mode.
You may use a full defense action to study you mark and gain a +2 bonus to ranged attack rolls against it, you may do this up to 3 times and the effects stack and last until you lose line of sight or until you change marks.
While in sniper mode your ranged attack deals additional damage equal to your dexterity modifier.
You may ignore penalties to attacking while prone.
By making a full-round action you may treat the max range of your weapon equal to 100' per Ozodrin level and you may ignore the penalties of the first 5 range increments.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-26, 11:54 PM
That is a lot to respond to. Please forgive me as I wrap everything in spoilers.

@Epsilon Rose. Not got time for a huge reply as work soon, (just got up, so tired), but if you haven't allready, read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0), especially the spoilered text in the FAQ section.

Basically you don't have to do more damage than a rouge to beat a rouge in power terms because raw damage isn't really the sole measure of power, versatility also matters, and that where this class really suffers, when it's not sniping stuff it does very little. p.s. the widely accepted best damage build for a rouge is dual wielding alchemical flasks, you can hardly miss, can easily get 7 throws a round at top level and bypass DR with all damage.

Dropping to a 2x damage multiplier would be far superior and you could absolutely cap the max number of dice to be multiplied separately. You'd still do gobs of damage, but it's not one shot territory, in fact it's well below that so that the other tactical shot options are much more attractive. Also making people choose between range and damage would be a good call as well.

@Hanuman: Rouges are 1D6 per 2 levels actually, not per 3.

I've actually already read that. The overwatch abilities were my attempt to give them non!sniping utility. Also, I just realized we (or, at least, I) have been doing the math wrong, because math in D&D is weird. When doing sequential multiplication, for all numbers after the first, you add 1 less than their original value to the multiplier. So sacrificing 3 attacks would give 3+2+2=7, rather than 9. If I dropped it down to 2 it would give 2+1+1=4. The later strikes me as a bit too low, but the former still seems a bit on the high side. Thoughts?


Assuming 1 die averages out to 3.5 SA damage, we can map the progression more accurately:

level 1 3.5
level 5 10.5
level 8 14
level 10 17.5
level 12 21
level 15 28 -- 8 to 48 dmg

28dmg/15level = 1.86dmg/level

At these numbers 2dmg/level is pretty close to the base damage for SA's average damage output.

Of course there are ways to improve this, so we can bump that up to 3dmg/level, and there are ways to attack multiple times so we can assume 4/level is still within fair play.

Having 4dmg/level flat on an an attack needs to either have a sustain mechanic or a situational and heavily invested usage. A caster, manifestor or initiator would have to expend considerable losses.

3dmg/level is totally fine, 2dmg/level is conservative and could be applied in situations where the sniper is disadvantaged such as running and gunning or attacking foes in close proximity.

Overall, it depends what you want to be able to interact with the damage output, if you want to be able to treat the attack as an "attack", make iterative attacks, buff up your shots with spells, magic items, ect then you'll have to account for those things in the base damage numbers. I am in favor of having more flat progression that is not so easily alterable, but I generally think eldrich blast is a better mechanic than SA in general so that's opinion for ya.

Hmm. That is an interesting idea. I might toy with that, but I'll probably end up leaving it as SA or re-branded SA, so it can use familiar mechanics. I'm somewhat worried that many potential GMs will see the ability to get a flat 280 to damage and insta-ban them. Actually, if I went that rout I'd also have to re-calibrate the numbers from rogue baseline.

Out of curiosity, why do you prefer eldritch blast over SA and how does that relate to this? They both have the same damage profile. The main difference is applicable targets and delivery method. Beyond that, they're not really comparable.



Hello! Great class there, always liked the idea of sniper archers, since I hate to do many rolls (and miss most, due to the penalties), hence I'll try to give some small input.

How about a little switch in the design, shifting the focus on SA (wich steps in the rogue's toes) and focus on raw damage build up and Criticals? Thoughts in random order follows:

-ok, forget SA. When you make an aimed shot you basically give up itteratives and add up their WEAPON damage (no strength bonus from mighty, for example). This way you make the whole crunch smaller and simpler by not having to worry about SA range and rules since all you need to do is score a crit.

-as a class feature, give improvements to aimed shot as you level (increase the threat range by +1 ever 6 lvls and the crit multiplier every 8 levels? Don't know, just a thought). Plus, perhaps, extra attack bonus (tie it to autohypnosis, allow for a test before using aimed shot to see how much attack bonus you can get, see the Knowledge Devotion feat for a good CD/bonus comparison) wich can be used either to guarantee a hit against a high CA target or to convert into damage trough a Power Attack-esque feat.

-now, take the space left by the SA feature and add in another resorce (some aim pool?) that refreshes constantly (full at start of combat and more with each kill/critical) wich you can use to improve your aimed shot (ignore cover, concealment, DR, called shots, pinning shots and other goodies...).

-this way, even if you can't crit a target (undead, ugh) you can still use your point pool goodies to dish out other things besides damage.

-as I type this, I realize that avoiding crit immunity ain't really that hard, some spells do that, right?
That wouldn't really give enough or stable enough damage to work. Crits, in particular, are unreliable when you're only getting 1 attack per round. Also, getting past crit immunity is a pain for mundane classes, without something novel to do it for them.


Now, unto out-of-combat versatility:

-how about a "recon" sorts of feature, based on the assassin death attack feature? You basically "observe" a target for a few rounds and, when you report back to your team mates, you grant them bonuses against said target...not only in combat stuff but also in skills, perhaps?

That's all I can think of, right now, not very tidy, I know. My thoughts rarely are. :smallwink:

Good job and keep going!

-Dyhmas
That's what some of the overwatch abilities were meant to do, though they'll be needing some expansion.



this is worthless. if you lower a creatures damage reduction by 1, then you can deal 1 more damage. Or, you could just use 2 more SA dice and deal 2d6 more damage. If you want this to actually matter, it needs to be at least 10 DR removed, and cost only 1d6
Would 3 DR and ER for 1d6 work, that way they're getting back about what they're spending (the average of 1d6 being 3.5) and the rest of their party gets to do more damage (because it'll still be active on their turns).


this one is really good, and seems to be the best out of them. you could actually make this one cost 3d6, and it would still be the best.
I'll probably up the cost on this a bit, but I want it to be really usable. Simply getting no-sold by entire categories of common monsters is a bit problematic.


this one... you get to lose 5d6 to do something that you can already do... regeneration is not some god ability. You can shoot creatures with regeneration, and they take non-lethal damage. Then, when they are down, you coup de grace them until they are actually dead. this should cost 1d6 because it doesn't really do anything, it just removes a turn of coup de grace
I wasn't aware that a coup de grace could go through regen. Also, regen can't heal normal damage, so it's easier to accumulate. That said, I probably will tone down the price a bit.


interesting, but the wording is really clunky. also, you can't stack it with itself because it lasts for 1 round
try this
You've learned that sometiems it's better to aim for effect, rather than damage. A creature targeted by an arrow enhanced with this ability must make a will save with a DC of 10 + Dex(because it is your ability to shoot) +1/2 HD or take a -4 penalty to attack rolls, and a -1/2 penalty to their move speed. This lasts for two rounds. If a creature fails its save, but was not hit, it may instead take half the damage of the hit to avoid the effects of this ability.
I meant you could pay for it twice to get the second set of effects. Also, DCs use Int because it represents being better trained and knowing how to put together and pull of these tricks better. Also, I don't want them to be completely sad.


this multiplies game time for not much reward. It is better if you use the same attack roll for each creature. also, a 5 ft burst is one creature. that is the square they occupy.
Ah, I meant 5 ft around the target square and that square itself. I will also add a clause about using a single roll for all hits on this and the line version.


this is really weak. worth more like 3d6 if you want it to be pricy. Also, do your SA work on each creature in the line? you should define that because most people won't know the answer
Or originally, I was thinking they would, so this can basically multiply your damage by the number of targets you can line up (and that should be a good number of targets with ricochet). I'm actually worries about it being too powerful.


Do they have to make that concentration check if you hit?
Yes, that's part of the normal rules of spell casting. If you take damage while casting a spell, you have to make a concentration check vs the damage+10.


this is not worth 2d6 sneak attack dice. as it is, it is never good. if it were 1d6 cost and use your dex instead of str for the trip, then it would be useful sometimes
Ah, forgot about that. I'll actually be switching it over to int. I'll need to fix Pinning shot in the same way.
I actually thought this would be pretty good, because you can potentially keep someone stationary and set up AoOs. That said, it does give someone a bonus against your attacks. Maybe I'll drop it down to 1d6.


we loves it. probably worth more than 2d6 though

we loves this also. still too cheap
3d6 sound good?


this sounds like you have to have wire and twine to do this.
That's just fluff.


this is really bad. 1d6 should be the cost
I can definitely see lowering, but getting to ignore 50-100% mischance without a special weapon or dedicated enchantments seems like a fairly powerful ability. Espesially because it ignores some mischance from spells that wouldn't normally get covered by ghost touch.


perhaps a disarm shot?
That sounds like a reasonable thing to add.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-27, 01:04 AM
@Gnomes2169: When I try to quote your response and reply inline, it goes crazy, so I'm just going to do a summary. Sorry.
Tactical shot already specifies that it functions even on creatures immune to SA. I agree with some of your point readjustments but not others. Important notes.

Focus snipers already have to ways to deal with cover. They can use a spotter and ricochet to bounce around it without penalty. Alternatively, they can use reliable shot and sundering to destroy the cover.
Spotter is already fairly powerful because of the way it interacts with ricochet and lets you effectively see things you shouldn't be able to.
Ricochet it fairly useful because it works with line shot, lets you bypass cover and snipe from previously cleared rooms while indoors.
Line shot is intended to carry SA damage, but I'm not actually sure if that's reasonable.
SA can proc while opponent is denied dex or when flanking them. Flanking is fairly easy to get.
The bonus to range is a multiplier, not addition.
Multiplication is specially defined in D&D and the progression is (x3, x5, x7,...). Yes, that's exceptionally weird and counter intuitive, but it also keeps the damage reasonable.
Keep in mind that when a FS gives up attacks, they need to make up for the damage they lose from the weapon and the SA and that their SA progression is slower than a rogues. You can follow those anydice links to see how they compare to a rogue, though I did their focus wrong and actually gave them too many dice of SA.



This has sparked me to actually focus on the ozodrin's ranged options for version2.2Hotfix3

Added this very good feat, as a tribute (PEACH):

Sniper - [ Aberrant ]
Requires: Organ or Spike Feature, Ozodrin Level 5

As a swift action you may enter or exit Sniper mode, when in sniper mode you may not make more than one attack per round and you may designate one creature as your Mark at any time, you may only have one Mark at a time and may not have a mark outside of sniper mode.
You may use a full defense action to study you mark and gain a +2 bonus to ranged attack rolls against it, you may do this up to 3 times and the effects stack and last until you lose line of sight or until you change marks.
While in sniper mode your ranged attack deals additional damage equal to your dexterity modifier.
You may ignore penalties to attacking while prone.
By making a full-round action you may treat the max range of your weapon equal to 100' per Ozodrin level and you may ignore the penalties of the first 5 range increments.

Very cool. Thank you.
As the feat currently stands, you sacrifice way to much damage to make it usable. I'm not familiar with a full defense action, but if it's similar to a total defense action, you're basically giving up multiple rounds of full attacks (and, if the PF ozadrin works like the 3.5 one, that is a lot of attacks) for 1 attack with a relatively minor boost to attack and damage. That said, the idea of a cosmic horror bunkering down into an artillery/sniping mode is amazing. It's like a cross between a zerg and a siege tank.

andreichekov
2014-07-27, 01:26 AM
I can definitely see lowering, but getting to ignore 50-100% mischance without a special weapon or dedicated enchantments seems like a fairly powerful ability. Espesially because it ignores some mischance from spells that wouldn't normally get covered by ghost touch.

Incorporeal creatures are just there to ruin mundane character's lives. It really doesn't matter that much if you stop this from happening.
The special weapon that is required for it is the most overpriced piece of stupidity ever made by WotC, and if you make a way around it, everyone will love you.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-27, 01:55 AM
I'm thinking about switching overwatch abilities so you get one every other level and they alternate with tactical shots.
I'm also thinking of adding a non!overwatch ability that lets you either count as flanking or explicitly qualify for a sneak attack based on an autohypnosis check. I'm not entirely sure how I'll set the DC though; I'm currently thinking of doing something based on the enemies HD or a will save. Maybe also an ability to make autohypnosis int based, since that's what I want this class to run on.

Any thoughts on those changes?


Incorporeal creatures are just there to ruin mundane character's lives. It really doesn't matter that much if you stop this from happening.
The special weapon that is required for it is the most overpriced piece of stupidity ever made by WotC, and if you make a way around it, everyone will love you.

I've found incorporeal creatures do a good job of ruining everyone's day, if they aren't specifically prepared for them, and ghost touch is only +1. That said, they are bloody annoying and the FS would be particularly good at countering incorporeal spring attacks if they had a way to sense them through objects...
That might be an interesting ability, not sure how I should place it though.

Gnomes2169
2014-07-27, 02:52 AM
@Gnomes2169: When I try to quote your response and reply inline, it goes crazy, so I'm just going to do a summary. Sorry.
Tactical shot already specifies that it functions even on creatures immune to SA. I agree with some of your point readjustments but not others. Important notes.
Fair enough, I must have read that wrong.


Focus snipers already have to ways to deal with cover. They can use a spotter and ricochet to bounce around it without penalty. Alternatively, they can use reliable shot and sundering to destroy the cover.
Wait, you can destroy cover with sunder? These are things you never do in melee combat unless there isn't any other way around the cover, so I'm not used to the idea. :smalltongue: And fair enough, I suppose.

Spotter is already fairly powerful because of the way it interacts with ricochet and lets you effectively see things you shouldn't be able to.
I know it's fairly powerful... but it's also fairly boring. I just feel like there can be more to it, and that it can benefit from helping the spotters themselves more than just letting them talk to each other... which they can already do. There is just no concrete mechanical bonus from doing so at the moment (and no penalties either. So technically, by RAW, spotters are actually given more of a disadvantage once they become spotters, since they get a -2 penalty now instead of a + or - 0).

Ricochet it fairly useful because it works with line shot, lets you bypass cover and snipe from previously cleared rooms while indoors.
Fair enough. It's still pretty niche unless you have a creative player, but encouraging creativity is always something I will support. :smalltongue:

Line shot is intended to carry SA damage, but I'm not actually sure if that's reasonable.
Well, it's a single line attack that deals relatively reasonable damage with SA applied (in fact, very good damage with SA applied) but absolutely terrible application without it. Maybe making it base sneak attack only would work, since not applying your bonus dice from focus as damage wold go a long way to keeping the ability under control damage-wise.

SA can proc while opponent is denied dex or when flanking them. Flanking is fairly easy to get.
Flanking requires being in melee, since you can only flank if you are adjacent to a creature. And to get the SA on your attack, you have to be the one flanking... so to get SA beyond round 1 with your pure-ranged class, you would need to get into melee. Not optimal. :smalltongue:

The bonus to range is a multiplier, not addition.
Oh... oh dang. You do realize how silly that can get with, say, the Compound long bow (which already has a range of 1100' maximum), right? :smalltongue:

Multiplication is specially defined in D&D and the progression is (x3, x5, x7,...). Yes, that's exceptionally weird and counter intuitive, but it also keeps the damage reasonable.
Ahhhh... fair enough. That gives you a base of 49d6 at level 20 then, if you only use one attack. Quite a bit lower...

Keep in mind that when a FS gives up attacks, they need to make up for the damage they lose from the weapon and the SA and that their SA progression is slower than a rogues. You can follow those anydice links to see how they compare to a rogue, though I did their focus wrong and actually gave them too many dice of SA.
I know that, and I wasn't commenting on how many dice they get negatively as compared to a rogue.

And any thoughts on the suggestions as the end? (beyond the misplaced comments on what the abilities may be used on) I feel like the Sniper could still benefit from some more role-cementing abilities or fluff-cementing abilities, either way.

Epsilon Rose
2014-07-27, 04:11 AM
[QUOTE]Wait, you can destroy cover with sunder? These are things you never do in melee combat unless there isn't any other way around the cover, so I'm not used to the idea. :smalltongue: And fair enough, I suppose.
Technically, yes. However, normally it's somewhat impractical due to relative hardness and HP. However, since the FS can make things that would normally be immune take SA damage and loads all of it's damage into a single attack, it's significantly less of a problem. That's the advantage of using an anti-material riflebow. :smallbiggrin:


I know it's fairly powerful... but it's also fairly boring. I just feel like there can be more to it, and that it can benefit from helping the spotters themselves more than just letting them talk to each other... which they can already do. There is just no concrete mechanical bonus from doing so at the moment (and no penalties either. So technically, by RAW, spotters are actually given more of a disadvantage once they become spotters, since they get a -2 penalty now instead of a + or - 0).

Where are you getting a -2 from? Spotter lets you draw line of sight as if you were them, which normally isn't possible at all. It's not the same as just being able to say "Hey, there's a guy over here."


Well, it's a single line attack that deals relatively reasonable damage with SA applied (in fact, very good damage with SA applied) but absolutely terrible application without it. Maybe making it base sneak attack only would work, since not applying your bonus dice from focus as damage wold go a long way to keeping the ability under control damage-wise.
My only trouble with it is that it can more then double your damage and, unlike most lines, doesn't need to go straight. Making it so subsequent targets only take base SA might not be a bad idea.


Flanking requires being in melee, since you can only flank if you are adjacent to a creature. And to get the SA on your attack, you have to be the one flanking... so to get SA beyond round 1 with your pure-ranged class, you would need to get into melee. Not optimal. :smalltongue:
Ah, right. I recalled that you could flank with reach weapons and could have sworn there was a graphic with someone using a bow to flank via the same principle. On closer inspection, the rules do specify a melee attack. That said, I was considering adding an ability that would let you make SAs using an autohypnosis check. I'm just not sure how to set the DCs.


Oh... oh dang. You do realize how silly that can get with, say, the Compound long bow (which already has a range of 1100' maximum), right? :smalltongue:
Yup. 720' sneak attacks. The problems with that were pointed out earlier. I'm currently trying to figure out how to make it scale a bit more reasonably.


Ahhhh... fair enough. That gives you a base of 49d6 at level 20 then, if you only use one attack. Quite a bit lower...
It actually has a mean that's only 1.5 points higher then a rogue using rapidshot. The big difference is a rogue needs to make 4 shots with significant penalties on the last 2 and the FS only needs to make 1 shot at a higher base BAB then the rogue.


And any thoughts on the suggestions as the end? (beyond the misplaced comments on what the abilities may be used on) I feel like the Sniper could still benefit from some more role-cementing abilities or fluff-cementing abilities, either way.
Agreed. Like I said to someone else, I'm going to move overwatch and Tactical Shot into their own columns and I might make overwatch progress every other level. That means I'm going to have a lot of free spaces to fill things in. So far I have Autohypnosis to SA and a few suggestions from the first post that will end up as overwatch abilities, which I'll need a lot more of, so I wouldn't mind suggestions for either.


For the lowered damage after round 1 problem, maybe add in an ability that lets the focus sniper to add his int mod to the damage he deals to creatures he is focusing on. Just a small bonus that should let the focus sniper keep his damage output consistent, and gives more use for the sniper's int score.
They don't really have lowered damage after the first round, once I fix the SA at range problem.


The class skills give the sniper quite a bit of versatility outside of combat, so you should be good in that department... and given the archetype of focus and steadiness that goes along with the name "sniper", I don't think the class's lower mobility is really a problem... however, perhaps you could give the Sniper an ability (like steady hands or something) that gives the sniper a bonus to attacks launched when he doesn't move, and maybe some other abilities that give bonuses to the sniper if he's entrenched behind cover or something like that? Something like this would make the sniper's play style a bit more unique, and give the sniper more tactical options/ allow them to play more with the environment if these abilities are properly implemented.
Snipers already get a substantial bonus for launching attacks while not moving. Namely, they get to make a full attack and can sack their iterative. Getting bonuses while firing from cover, however, could be interesting.

Carl
2014-07-27, 07:02 AM
I'm still reading through the rest of the replies after yours to me. But that multiplier isn't as bad as you think. with 3 attacks sacrificed that's 28D^, or 98 average damage, and if you went to rouge SA progression it would be 40D6 and 140 average damage.

Bearing in mind that you don't require the ability to do several hundred damage to be in a good balance point isn't required, (look at Strike of Perfect Clarity, Time Stands Still, and War Masters Charge for example, none of those without serious cheesing of ubercharge stuff are going to break 200 damage reliably), those values are both more than enough, and you've certainly got more than enough dice free to use on tactical shots.

Also yes Overwhatch adds some there combat utility. But that's not where this class really lacks, so long as you've got a reason to use tactical shots this class has several beneficial effects it can throw down in a fight. Where it suffers is in doing anything out of combat. The class has the same problem there as the rouge. Skill checks are inherently inferior to spell effects that can just go "this happens automatically", (or sufficiently close enough it doesn't matter), Invisibility for stealth and Charm for NPC social stuff are pretty standard examples of this. Discern Lie's/Zone of Truth instead of Sense Motive, Dispel Magic instead of Disable Device, Find Traps and Snares instead of Search, e.t.c.

daremetoidareyo
2014-08-13, 05:52 PM
I would put concentration on the list and make it possible for the sniper to be interrupted and lose focus, just like a caster (DC 10+ damage dealt). The concentration check is modified by attribute +1/2 class level + skill level. He can still attack next round, but those sneak attack dice, and the extra things he was going to use them for are lost.

Precise shot as a bonus feat, early on in progression is a good idea.

How does rapid shot feat interplay with sneak attack dice accumulation?

Epsilon Rose
2014-08-14, 12:56 PM
I would put concentration on the list and make it possible for the sniper to be interrupted and lose focus, just like a caster (DC 10+ damage dealt). The concentration check is modified by attribute +1/2 class level + skill level. He can still attack next round, but those sneak attack dice, and the extra things he was going to use them for are lost.

I don't really see a reason to do that. The Sniper is already giving up a lot to charge their shots and they're gaining less then a caster. They're also a lot more vulnerable if they decide to charge their shots for multiple rounds.


How does rapid shot feat interplay with sneak attack dice accumulation?

It doesn't. If you use it you can't use focus shot.

gr8artist
2014-08-14, 07:00 PM
I'll be perfectly honest here. I looked at the class, thought it was interesting, and made it about half way through the first page before realizing that there was already a lot of heavy text/alterations/arguments/recommendations etc. that I wasn't interested in.
So I skipped to here to let you know what I think about your class as currently written.

It NEEDS the ability to take 10 on a focused shot. People gun' be pissed if they spend 2 or 3 rounds, get a massive multiplier or bonus, and then botch the roll with a natural 1. You need range penalty mitigation as well, because it only takes one or two spent attacks for sneak attack (precision damage) to overtake the no-penalty range of your weapon.
Next, rather than allowing them to mitigate some of the attacks in a full-attack action and make others, just have them spend a move action to focus. Focus provides a bonus based on their BAB (small bonus at 1-5, mediocre at 6-10, improved at 11-15, and amazing at 16 or more). This completely negates trouble with TWF/Flurr/Haste/Speed/Etc. If you want, have the benefits last for a number of rounds equal to their intelligence modifier, or until they take their next attack, whichever occurs first. This is probably an easier way to phrase the focus round after round mechanic.

Knocking off 5' of distance per ricochet is ridiculous. It should reduce the max range increments (5 increments for throwing weapons, 10 for projectile). So if you fire a shot that bounces off one wall to hit an enemy, that enemy must be within 9 increments. If you need to make 5 bounces, then they must be within 5 increments.
That being said, anything more than 1 ricochet is just ridiculous and begging for metagamey exploitation.

Too many skills. Just... too many.

I'd go for a good Will save, rather than Reflex. An intense focus and determination, and a tendency to lay prone and take time lining up shots do not seem like qualities that merit a good Ref and bad Will.

So, using a spotter, you have line of sight, but not necessarily line of effect? There's got to be a better way to manage that. Besides, a spotter can't help you line up precision damage. The only thing they could realistically do is pinpoint locations for you, but you'd still have total concealment on the attack.

Some of your tactical shots are ok, and others are just lackluster. I'm not even sure what vicious shot is supposed to do.

Ok, assuming that speed weapons and haste spells can't grant extra attacks to sacrifice for accuracy, you end up with 4 attacks per round at 20th level. Ignoring the fact that you could spend round after round increasing range and sneak attack damage up to WAY further away and faster than a creature can move (60 ft per attack means your range increases at 240 ft per round), you can still pull off an overpowered attack every round.
You sac 3 of your iterative attacks (plus, possibly, some AoO's you pick up with snap shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snap-shot-combat)) to multiply your 7 SA dice to 49 and increase the range to 240 feet. 49d6 damage at almost medium range (300 for a 20th level caster) EVERY ROUND seems like a bit much to me. I highly recommend dropping the base range on sneak attack to the normal value allowed, 30 feet.
Sniper's Goggles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/goggles-sniper-goggles) still make your class OPAF, but that's whatever.

Take another look at your Overwatch Tech's. Two of them have the same name, and one of them does the same thing as the other two. And most of them are pretty lackluster. +3 bonus at 20th level is hardly even a class feature, as a 1st level spell could likely do something similar or more useful.

More bonus feats, earlier and often. The fighter could overtake you in ranged accuracy pretty quick, though you might have him beat in damage (it's hard to say, comparing your SA dice to his rapid/haste/whatever FRA)

I see where you're going with Supreme Focus, but I'm not sure it works as written.
Rewriting focused shot to grant you some kind of stack or bonus pool would allow for a better iteration of SF, but perhaps a better capstone is in order.

AMFV
2014-08-27, 04:49 PM
This is pretty interesting stuff. The first thing I noticed was the skills list. It seems really lengthy to me. I mean you have all of the social skills, Autohypnosis, Appraise, Use Magic Device... It's too many skills. And I think 8 + Int Skill Points is just too many for a martial focused class.

I would drop for sure: Autohypnosis, since that's typically linked to Psionics classes, and doesn't necessarily make sense for snipers, most of the abilities that professional soldiers have could be better replicated with Concentration. Disable Device, because that just doesn't make sense, particularly without trapfinding, it isn't really the best plan to give something without trapfinding Disable Device. Appraise, because I'm not sure why that would be here at all. I mean the class is somebody that spends their lives training and studying warfare, that doesn't give the time to study the market. I mean look at how many ridiculous new model Mustangs with 36% APR get bought around Camp Lejune. Use Magic Device, I don't see why they would have this one either, that just doesn't make sense to me. Also what's up with Decipher Script?

To be honest I'd keep (or add): Balance, Climb, Hide, and Move Silently (Those all work as professional skills for a sniper). Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, and Search (because those are consistent with the Overwatch role). And I'd keep the Craft and Profession.

With that you could probably drop to 6 + Int Skills per level, or even 4 + Int Skills per level.

Now onto the class features!

Sneak Attack

I think that Sneak Attack doesn't work very well for Sniping. A Ranged Death attack seems like a much more appropriate option to me. Or they get bonus damage only if they are beyond a certain range rather than within a certain range. Something like "Sniping Shot: If a Sniper can catch a target flat-footed and is beyond 100 feat they get bonus damage", that would work to convey the surprise and the nature of sniping.

Focus Shot

I'm concerned about the line "Bonus dice need not be spent immediately, but they must all apply to the same attack." Which needs clarification, since that would suggest that you could continue to funnel off bonus dice for as long as you wanted and then get an instant killing attack. I think that Death Attack (with tweaking) is much closer mechanically to what you're looking for. It would replace the need to roll so many die, and it would be more frightening, simpler and possibly easier to implement.

Tactical Shot

Now this is really interesting. I would actually focus the class around obtaining these abilities instead of the sneak attack thing. These are definitely the high point of this read so far. I think that you could have them depend on rounds of study or something, or a maximum range rather than trading sneak attack damage. I just feel that the sneak attack thing here is bogging down the system rather than improving it. You could do something like grant one Tactical Shot from the list and then have them be an alternative against a flat-footed opponent to a standard attack.

Overwatch

I was really hoping for more here. It feels kind of like a neutered Marshal or Bard. I think that you could do something like "Grant Evasion" or "Grant Uncanny Dodge" Overwatch is all about observing people and noticing threats, so preventing people from being surprise attacked would be the way to go. Essentially I would do something like require the Overwatch to be in LoS from the party but hidden, and then have them give those benefits and improve them, and all of the benefits. Rather than having an aura based thingee.

Spotter

Very snazzy, I would instead make it so that if you have the spotter there, they can spend their action to allow you to treat the enemy as flat-footed. Rather than seeing an enemy you can't. You have precious few ways of forcing an enemy to be flat-footed at the range we're at. And that's going to hurt quite a bit.

Conservation Of Ammo

Nice but not all that great, it's pretty flavorful, but it's so low powered that you might as well front-end it at level 1. Since that's when that's likeliest to matter

HiPS

This is way way too late.

Bonus Feat at 19

This makes no sense to me. Why suddenly have a bonus feat all the way at the end? It just doesn't seem logical to me.

Supreme Focus

I really like this, it's a pretty handy capstone.

Overall there are a few glaring problems, nothing too terrible though. You intend for the Sniper to operate at a distance, but there's no way for him to make enemies flat-footed from that distance, and they depend on that to be able to do damage. The skills are funky, but that's not the biggest thing. There a few minor polish issues, like Bonus feats at level 19... where it looks like there are things being done to fill space. Which is fine, but I'd spread abilities out to make the space filling stuff less obvious. At least that's my take. It's got the makings of something really outstanding though.