Anti-Mage Checklist

[Dorian Gray]

So, in a recent thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362476-So-I-ve-made-the-ultimate-Anti-Mage), someone claimed that they had made an incredibly effective mage-killer (spoiler: they hadn't). But that got me thinking: what would someone need to be able to do to fight and kill mages? What tasks should they be able to accomplish?

Take note, that this isn't a thread for build ideas. It is just a list of what a character who is dedicated to killing high-level, reasonably optimized wizards should be able to do. That way, we can just refer people who have a "Mage-Killer" here, and see how their builds stack up.

Mobility
(Note: Abilities that are only usable once or twice a day don't help here. Conjurer McConjurerson can use Uncanny Preparation to cast plane shift twenty-three kajillion times a day)

Flight: The character should, of course, be able to fly. In fact, he needs to fly faster than the mage.

Tactical Teleportation: The character needs to be able to teleport. This doesn't remove the need for flight, because gravity, nor does flight remove the need for teleportation, because walls.

Long-Distance Teleportation: You need to get to the mage, quickly, with a high degree of accuracy. Furthermore, you need to be able to tell where he's gone, every time he moves.

Cross-Plane Transportation: Plane Shift, Gate, Astral Projection, and that's not even leaving core. The mage won't be sticking to the prime, that's for sure

Lock-Down

AOOs: If a mage casts a spell in melee range, you need to be able to punish him for it, preferably in a way that actually keeps him from getting off that twinned maximized shivering touch.

Movement Prevention: That 5 foot sword range doesn't do anything if the mage moves ten feet back. You need to be able to stop him from moving, in any way, forever.

Teleportation: You need to have a way to stop it, both towards and away from you. This includes cross-dimensional travel, ethereal travel, and MOTHERF*****G ROPE TRICK!

Anti-Magic

Um, duh

You need to be able to stop the mage from casting spells that do things. Also, spells that don't do things, because magic is tricksy.

Wait, that isn't specific enough. So...

Things you need to be able to stop

Direct Damage: Direct damage is weaker than other things that wizards can do in the same way that a ten megaton nuke is weaker than a hundred megaton nuke. That means you need:


Health: enough to absorb any damage that you take


High AC: Really friggen high. True Strike gives +20 to an attack roll.


High Touch AC: Most targeted spells are either ranged touch, or touch. And Spectral Hand lets them all be ranged.


High Saves: Duh. But half damage on a successful save still sucks, so...


Energy Immunity: To all five kinds. Force, well... hope you listened to the bit about Health.

High touch AC + High hp + High saves + Evasion + Mettle is inadequate vs. direct damage. ETI Greater Arcane Fusion [ETI Arcane Fusion [ETI EM HoS] [ETI EM HoS], ETI EM HoS] where:

ETI = Easy Twin Invisible
EM = Easy Max
HoS = Hail of Stone

inflicts 400 damage with no save, no attack roll, and no SR. This can be boosted much higher with more work. The only effective way to deal with direct damage is via immunity to damage.


Ability Damage and Debuffs: Direct damage is weak compared to the many, many other options mages have. One of the most terrifying is the ability that arcane spellcasters have to drop a boatload of negative levels and ability damage on people. Because any negative levels or ability damage reduces your saves, getting hit by these once makes it easier to get hit again the next round. So you need:


Immunity to Negative Levels (I recommend immunity to all negative energy, via death ward)


Immunity to Ability Damage/Drain


Immunity to Mind-Affecting: I will say this again later. It bears repeating.

Summons: Chain-gating Solars aside, a mage can dump a hordeload of minions on your head. That means you need to be able to:


Stop Extraplaner Summoning: Your sword doesn't do you any good if you are literally buried in succubi. At least, not the one in your hand.


Stop Extraplaners V2.0: But the above is difficult. So barring that, you need to be able to keep the minions away from you


Kill lots of stuff at once: You know what sucks? Mowing through a couple hundred cubic feet of dominated fighter, one attack at a time.

Mind Screwery: Because it is never, never a good idea to poke stuff to see if it's illusionary. That means you need:


Immunity to Enchantment: Yes, you need Mind Blank.


Immunity to Illusion: True Seeing, too.


Immunity to Divination: Not, strictly speaking, Mind Screwery, but I didn't want to make a new category. Basically, don't let yourself get scried (scryed? scry'd? scridided?), ever. And make it back-compatible to the beginning of your familial line, too.

Magical Lockdown: Grease. Forcecage. Freezing Fog. Forcecage. Evard's Enormous Black... Tentacles. Stinking Cloud. Forcecage. If you can't get to the mage, you can't hurt him. That means you need:


To be able to avoid all that stuff. See the above section on mobility.


Also, Freedom of Movement. Which practically goes without saying.

Buffs: It is really friggen hard to kill someone when they have all their buffs up. So you need...


To be able to disable magical affects from a distance.


To keep the mage from putting up more buffs. Which goes back to the Lockdown section, but it bears repeating

Items: Spells aren't the only thing mages have going for them. Rings of Freedom of Movement, Spellblades of Dispel Magic, Bathrobes of Warm Fuzzy Dryness- all of those can and will ruin your day. So you need to be able to:


Stop any and all magic items from working, from a long distance.


Keep items disabled for the entire fight.

Finding the Wizard

You need to get information about the mage, find him, and get to him. Yes this is hard. Because he has, and you need to beat:


Abjurations (vs. divination): Nondetection, Misdirection, Mind Blank


Abjurations (vs. you): Guards and Wards, A Door With an Explosive Rune On It, Anticipate Teleportation, A Key With Ten Explosive Runes On It, Forbiddence, Oh God So Many Explosive Runes Everywhere (Make It Stop Make It Stop).


I'm Sorry, Your Wizard Is In Another Dimension: Astral Projection, Genesis, MOTHERF*****G ROPE TRICK!!!!!

Hurting the Wizard

You need:


Initiative: He has Nerveskitter, Foresight, and Celerity. If he casts Celerity and then Time Stop, you lose. Don't lose.


High To-Hit. As in, + yes.


To hit ethereal stuff: Blink is a thing, folks!


Miss Chance Negation: So is Displacement. But also Mirror Image, and Invisibility.


Tons of Damage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzfUc08HMBI): Kill him in one hit. Through any and all DR. This is perhaps the most important bit.

Keeping Him Dead

If he comes back to life, you lose. Figure it out.

On the Subject of Action the Economy

Less an actual category than a hazy meta-category, but your friendly neighborhood Conjurer can teleport as a standard and a free action. You need to be able to do stuff with every action you have, and be able to react and prevent anything that the mage can do with his standard, move, free, swift, and immediate actions, as well as the extra set of all the above that he gets from celerity. If you block the spell the Wizard throws out as a standard, but can't prevent him from casting Quickened Forcecage, you lose.

On the Subject of Range

Range is a defensive statistic. A spell with a range of 400+40/level (or whatever it is) is much safer to cast than a spell with a range of touch. If you have to get next to the mage to hit him with your *insert relevant ability here* you have to be able to prove that he couldn't get away from it. That means accurate, free-action teleportation, coupled with shutting down all of the enemy mage's maneuverability- abrupt jaunt is a thing.

Range is also an offensive statistic. An ability that can be used half a mile away from its target is more powerful than one that can only be used from ten feet away. Mages have range. If you don't, you are outclassed, and you should assume they can always hit you. No sorcerer worth his salt is going to wait for you to get within charging range before unleashing his twinned repeating greater arcane fusion of death.

What this means, is that it isn't enough to be able to do something to the Mage, you have to be able to do it at range, or have insane maneuverability. Standard-Action teleportation is not good enough, because that means that you don't get to do anything the turn you jump in.

On the Subject of Rocket Tag

The best way to keep a mage from killing you is to prevent him from doing anything at all. Indeed, if the mage gets a turn where he can cast spells, you will probably die, unless you have defensive buffs personalized for the spells the mage can cast. Anthrowhale believes that to let the mage get any actions at all is to lose, and honestly I don't totally disagree (with the potential exception of a cleric who was able to plan ahead).

Other Notes: On the forums, a wizard is assumed to be good at everything at once. In practice, this is limited by availability of books, time constraints, and the patience of the players and the DM. But while it is difficult for a mage to have every trick, he could have any trick- and therefore, you, as a killer of mages, need to be able to deal with every trick (theoretical optimization aside).

Mage: An Arcane spellcaster. Generally assumed here to be a Wizard (because they can do the most shenanigans), but also Sorcerers, Beguilers, Bards, Dread Necromancers, and (snrk) Warmages.

Lockdown: The ability to stop someone else from doing something.

Celerity + Time Stop: A powerful and effective spell combination which you need to be able to stop.

Grease: An even more powerful spell, which people without Balance across the world have learned to fear.

Explosive Runes: Perhaps the second-most devastating spell ever to be invented, it spells doom for those without immunity to Force damage

Rope Trick: AAAAARRRGH!!!!!!!!!
:smallfrown:

So, pitch in with suggestions, tell me what I've missed. All together now!

[Karnith]

I have posted this a few times before, but here is a(n incomplete) description of the problems with dealing with casters, focusing in particular on what defenses they have available:
Casters on the Defense
Armor Class: Competent, high-level casters are probably going to have high ACs. This may clash with what you're accustomed to from other games and in depictions of casters in other media. 3.5 isn't really about playing fair, though, so here are some common ways that casters can boost their AC:
Dexterity bonus - This is the one you expect casters to have. Dexterity isn't generally a caster dump stat (particularly if they focus on ranged touch attacks). However, at high levels most casters are probably going to have the Dexterity bonuses of their assumed forms, plus whatever bonuses they may get from items that they can wear in their assumed forms. Popular forms at high levels include the Planetar (Monster Manual p. 11; Dex 19), Solar (MM p. 12; Dex 20), Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio p. 33; Dex 21), Pit Fiend (MM p. 57, Dex 27), Greater Air Elemental (MM p. 96; Dex 31) and Titan (MM pp. 242-243; Dex 12).
Conventional armor - If a caster happens to be a divine caster, or certain sorts of arcane casters, then she can just wear armor like anyone else. Pretty simple. Note that, because of spells like Magic Vestment (Player's Handbook, p. 251), they're probably going to have pretty high enhancement bonuses on their armor in addition to a bunch of special properties, like the ever-useful Heavy Fortification (Dungeon Master's Guide p. 219), which would make them immune to critical hits.
Shields - See conventional armor, above. Also note that bucklers are useful for arcane casters of all sorts, as they have minimal arcane spell failure chance that can be reduced to zero fairly easily through, say, being made of mithral (DMG, p. 284).
Other miscellaneous items - The typical AC-boosting items like Rings of Deflection (DMG, p. 232) and Amulets of Natural Armor (DMG, pp. 246-247) are as cheap and easy for casters to buy and use as for anyone else. Also of note is the Monk's Belt (DMG, p. 248), which generally works in place of conventional armor and is extremely effective for Wisdom-based casters like Clerics or Druids.
A level in Monk – Other characters can multiclass, so why can’t casters? A dip in Monk gives casters an unarmored AC bonus equal to their Wisdom bonus, which is pretty good for Wisdom-based casters. The Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer, p.105) feat can switch this bonus to Charisma, and Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor, p. 28) and Kung-Fu Genius (Dragon Magazine #319, p. 71) can switch it to Intelligence, giving most casters the ability to key it off of their main casting stat. Since the bonus is untyped, it will stack with any other AC bonus they have.
Armor Bonuses from Spells - Probably the most basic spells that grant AC bonuses, and the ones that people think about the most. Mage Armor (PHB p. 249; +4 armor bonus) and Greater Mage Armor (Spell Compendium, p. 136; +6 armor bonus) are the classics, and last all day at high levels. Luminous Armor (Book of Exalted Deeds, p. 102; +5 armor bonus) and Greater Luminous Armor (BoED, p. 102; +8 armor bonus) are the standard for good-aligned casters, both because of the large AC bonuses they grant and because they impose an additional -4 penalty to melee attacks made against the caster (making the bonuses effectively +9 and +12 against melee attacks)
Shield Bonuses from Spells - Shield (PHB, p. 274; +4 shield bonus) is another old favorite, though its short duration makes it less useful as an all-day buff. Deflect (Player's Handbook II, p. 109) is an immediate action spell that gives a huge shield bonus to AC against a single attack.
Natural Armor Bonuses from Spells - Barkskin (Player's Handbook p. 203; a scaling enhancement bonus to a creature's natural armor) is the old classic here, and at 10 min./level it can be Extended to effectively last all day at high levels. Most natural armor bonuses at high levels come from changing shape into other creatures, however; popular choices at high levels include the Planetar (MM p. 11; +19 natural), Solar (MM p. 12; +21 natural armor), Chronotyryn (FF p. 33; +22 natural), Pit Fiend (MM p. 57, +23 natural), Dire Tortoise (Sandstorm, p. 151; +19 natural), and Titan (MM pp. 242-243; +19 natural). Note that enhancement bonuses to natural armor (such as from Barkskin, or from Amulets of Natural Armor) apply on top of whatever other sources of natural armor a character may possess, including the bonuses you get from changing shape. When Polymorph-alikes are off the table, expect to see spells like the aforementioned Barkskin, or Aberrate (BoVD, p. 84; note that most PCs will be incapable of providing the Fiend component), the Bite of the Werecreature spells (SpC, pp. 28-29), Dragonskin (SpC, p. 73), or Spiderskin (SpC, p. 202).
Deflection Bonuses from Spells - Protection from Evil and its siblings (PHB, p. 266) are the old standby here, but there are many other ways of getting a deflection bonus; the Magic Circle spells (PHB, pp. 249-250) do something similar, and the Holy Aura (PHB, p. 241) series of spells also grant deflection bonuses to AC. Halo of Sand (Sandstorm, p. 117) gives a scaling deflection bonus that can last effectively all-day with Extend Spell. Lesser Deflect (PHB II, p. 109) gives a scaling deflection bonus to AC against a single attack as an immediate action. A classic way is to take an incorporeal form, whether through Shapechange (PHB, p. 277), Ghostform (SpC, p. 103), or something else, which will get a character her Charisma bonus to AC as a deflection bonus. Shapechanging (or using Assume Supernatural Ability with some other polymorph spell) into a Nymph (MM, pp. 197-198), or another creature with an ability similar to Unearthly Grace, will get a character the same thing without having to go incorporeal. Scintillating Scales (SpC, p. 181) is a short-duration spell that can be Persisted, and will turn the caster’s natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus to AC, which is useful for boosting touch AC.
Other Bonuses from Spells – Suffice to say, there are lots of ways to boost your AC using spells. Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage, p. 50) boosts any AC bonuses from Abjuration spells, for example. Haste (PHB, p. 239) grants a dodge bonus to AC, becoming smaller through Reduce Person (PHB, p. 269), Minute Form (Complete Arcane, p. 115), or what have you grants a size bonus to AC, Foresight (PHB, p. 233) grants an insight bonus, Moment of Prescience (PHB, p. 255) can give a huge insight bonus to AC against a single attack, and so on.
Miss Chances – So, you’ve gotten your attack bonus sky-high, eh? It’s too bad that even that isn’t enough to actually be able to hit a caster – next you’ve got to deal with miss chances, which apply on top of AC. Note that, if you’re using Rules Compendium’s (somewhat nonsensical) rules on miss chances, miss chances overlap (do not stack), so only the best of these will apply. Also note that True Seeing (et al) helps with some, but not all, of these sources of miss chance. See Invisibility helps with even fewer.
Concealment – Multiple sources of concealment overlap (do not stack), probably because it’s incredibly easy to come by. Expect some variation of Blur (PHB, p. 206), invisibility, Gleaming armor (Expanded Psionics Handbook, p. 162), the various fog and cloud spells, and so on. Veil of Shadow (SpC, p. 228) is somewhat notable for being a magical source of concealment in an odd school (and for being persistable).
Blink (PHB, p. 206) and Greater Blink (SpC, p. 32-33) – The caster might miss thanks to the normal Blink spell, but it’s as much as a 50% chance to miss against a blinking opponent. With Greater Blink, the caster doesn’t suffer a chance to miss, while you’re still stuck with it.
Displacement – Another miss chance that isn’t concealment; expect it at either 20% from the Minor Cloak of Displacement (DMG, p. 253), or at 50% from the spell (PHB, p. 223).
Mirror Image (PHB, p. 254) and Greater Mirror Image (PHBII, p. 120) – Not strictly a miss chance, Mirror Image is close enough to include here. The Greater version has an immediate-action casting time and replenishes images as time passes, making it a very effective defense.
Incorporeality – Accessible through Shapechange (PHB, p. 277), Ghostform (SpC, p. 103), and some other things, this is again not actually a miss chance (unless you use Rules Compendium). A 50% chance to ignore most effects is nothing to sneeze at, though force effects, ghost touch weapons (DMG, p. 224-225), and positive and negative energy effects will affect incorporeal creatures normally.
Movement modes – So, you’ve found a way to get a sufficiently high to-hit bonus to be relevant, and a way to get through the caster’s miss chances. That’s cool, but none of it matters if you can’t actually get close enough to hit them, meaning you’ve got to find ways to keep up with:
High speeds – On the most basic level, casters can move really fast. Whether it’s Expeditious Retreat (PHB, p. 228), a Phantom Steed (PHB, pp. 260-261), or the almighty Shapechange (PHB, pp. 277-278), you’re going to need a sufficiently high movement speed to keep up.
Alternate movement modes – Something that seems to slip a lot of people’s minds when talking about fighting a caster is that the “victims” probably aren’t just going to be standing on the ground waiting for you to hit them. Casters have easy access to flight through Fly (PHB, p. 232), Phantom Steed (PHB, pp. 260-261), Air Walk (PHB, pp. 196-197), Overland Flight (PHB, p. 259), shape-changing magic, and many, many other things. They can swim, burrow, and climb if necessary, as well, though flight is likely going to be the most relevant movement mode you need to worry about.
Teleportation – Pretty much every caster from mid-levels on has a way to teleport. Dimension Door (PHB, p. 221) is one of the earliest means, but Teleport (PHB, pp. 292-293), Greater Teleport (PHB, p. 293), Gate (PHB, p. 234), and Word of Recall (PHB, p. 303) are all fairly common at higher levels. On a tactical level, teleportation can keep an enemy constantly out of range of your attacks. On a strategic level, if you don’t have a way to follow a teleporting character, you’re going to have an extremely hard time fighting them; if things aren’t going their way, they can just take a quick trip to somewhere you can’t follow.
Saves – By now, given the previously-listed defenses, you’ve probably had the though that it’d be easier to use some sort of special ability to fight a caster. Unfortunately, casters being casters, they can survive most of those, too, thanks to some excellent saves. (For abilities that don’t require saves, I entreat you to see the next section).
Base Saves – Casters generally have good Will saves. Some have other good saves, either from their base classes or prestige classes. You probably know this already, as you’re capable of reading, but it’s a thing that should be mentioned.
Ability Score Bonuses – Unsurprisingly, casters have ways of boosting their ability scores, most notably through shape-changing magic, but also through bog-standard magic items. Most of the commonly-used forms have Constitution and Dexterity scores of at least 20. Some have higher scores, and more than a few forms will allow ability-enhancing items to work.
Morale Bonuses – A sort-of common save bonus, the spell Conviction (SpC, p. 52) gives a scaling morale bonus on saving throws that can effectively last all day when Extended at high levels. Morale bonuses are also common against mind-affecting or fear effects, such as in the spell Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC, p. 177)
Resistance Bonuses – Probably the most common form of bonus to saves, a caster could most easily get these from Cloaks of Resistance (DMG, p. 253; up to a +5 resistance bonus to saves) and the Resistance line of spells, notably Superior Resistance (SpC, p. 174; +6 resistance bonus for 24 hours).
Divine Grace et al – Divine Grace (PHB, p. 44) is an ability that you’re going to see on Sorcadins, but similar abilities are available through PrCs and some shape-changing magic (notably, Shapechange). Nymphs (MM, pp. 197-198), for example, have an Unearthly Grace ability that gets them their Charisma bonus to their saving throws (and as a deflection bonus to AC, as discussed above).
Evasion – Not too many casters are going to have this ability naturally, but a Ring of Evasion (DMG, p. 232) is pretty cheap. Some creatures also have it, opening it up to access through shape-changing magic.
Foresight (PHB, p. 233) – Yeah, that +2 to Reflex saves isn’t huge, but it’s there, and Foresight is up pretty much all the time once it becomes available.
Moment of Prescience (PHB, p. 255) – So big that it needs its own bullet point, MoP can get an insight bonus equal to a character’s caster level on a saving throw. This doesn’t take an action, so it can be triggered whenever.
Surge of Fortune (Complete Champion, p. 128) – Another spell so silly that it needs its own bullet point, this spell can be discharged to get the next saving throw (among other things) treated as a natural 20.

Resistances and Immunities – If you ever get a chance to hit a caster with something, congrats! That can be quite a feat. Unfortunately, there are quite a few things that casters can do to ignore what you’ve done to them.
Damage Reduction – There are a lot of spells that grant damage reduction. Stoneskin (PHB, p. 284) is the classic to me, but damage reduction from an assumed form is probably going to be the most relevant. Some common Shapechange forms include the Planetar (MM p. 11; DR 10/evil), Solar (MM p. 12; DR 15/epic and evil), Chronotyryn (FF p. 33; DR 15/magic), Pit Fiend (MM p. 57; DR 15/good and silver), and Titan (MM pp. 242-243; DR 15/lawful).
Death Ward – This grants immunity to magical death effects (of which there are a lot), energy drain, and negative energy effects, which is useful against a wide swath of creature abilities, and against a lot of people’s favorite save-or-die spells. The most straightforward way to get access to this is through the spell (PHB, p. 217), but Death Ward armor (CArc, p. 142) and Soulfire armor (BoED, p. 112) can offer similar protection. The spell Veil of Undeath (SpC, p. 229) provides the various Death Ward immunities, and to a wide range of other undead traits.
Energy Resistance or Immunity – Many spells and effects grant immunity or resistance to energy, so you shouldn’t rely too heavily on energy (hello Dragonfire Inspiration) for damage against casters. Resist Energy (PHB, p. 272) and Protection from Energy (PHB, p. 266) are the classic low-level source that can be Extended to last most of the day. Energy Immunity (SpC, p. 80) lasts all day by default. Shape-changing magic can grant these abilities as well, and a huge portion of good forms (particularly Outsiders) possess both resistances and immunities to energy.
Fast Healing and Regeneration – You know all that damage you just dealt? Well, it’s probably going to go away in a few seconds. There are a few spells that give these abilities, notably the Vigor line of spells (SpC, p. 229), but you’re really going to need to worry about casters in assumed forms. Some common Shapechange forms include the Planetar (MM p. 11; regeneration 10, bypassed by evil-aligned weapons and spells and effects with the evil descriptor), Solar (MM p. 12; regeneration 15, bypassed by epci evil-aligned weapons and spells and effects with the evil descriptor), and Pit Fiend (MM p. 57; regeneration 5, bypassed by good-aligned silver weapons, and spells or effects with the good descriptor).
Freedom of Movement – FoM-style effects render a caster immune to grappling and a host of other effects that would restrict her movement. It can be accessed through the namesake spell (PHB, p. 233), but is probably better used via Heart of Water (CM, p. 107) or a Ring (DMG, p. 232).
Friendly Fire (Exemplars of Evil, p. 27) – A spell ridiculous enough to merit its own entry, particularly as it is Persistable. It is, more or less, immunity to ranged attacks. The much more limited Wind Wall (PHB, p. 302) is a weaker counter to ranged attacks, though still very effective against arrows and bolts.
Ironguard (SpC, p. 125) – Another spell that I think is silly enough to deserve its own bullet point. It makes you immune to metal, magical and non-. And, yes, it specifically allows you to ignore attacks made by metal weapons, which is a sizeable portion of weapons.
Mind Blank (PHB, p. 253) – Immunity to mind-affecting effects, full-stop. That is most Enchantment spells and effects, most fear effects (and all fear attacks), and quite a few other things.
Type-based Immunities – Many creature types offer immunities, particularly the Construct (MM, p. 307), Plant (MM, p. 313), and Undead (MM, p. 317) types. Using certain types of shape-changing magic to assume the form of a creature of these types will grant you the immunities. A number of subtypes (especially Outsider subtypes) come with goodies, as well. The spell Vile Death (SpC, p. 229) offers undead traits without actually changing a creature’s type, and lasts for hours by the time it someone is able to cast it.
Immunity to Damage, Immunity to Death from HP Damage, etc. - Yes, this is possible. Not that hard, either, though in actual play it’s unlikely to occur. Probably the most famous example is Delay Death (SpC, p. 63) with Beastland Ferocity (SpC, p. 25).
Finding a Caster – So, you’ve got ways to get up close and personal with a caster, bypass his defenses, and hit him. That’s great! Now you’ve got to find him! Unfortunately for you, that is a serious task in and of itself.
Casters move quickly – We’ve covered this before in the section on movement modes, but it bears repeating for strategic-level discussions – casters can cover a lot of ground, fast. They can fly at prodigious speeds (a Phantom Steed, from PHB p. 260, maxes out at a fly speed of 240 ft.), they can teleport, and they can travel to other planes. Following a caster who doesn’t want to get caught takes more or less equal movement capabilities.
Casters don’t sleep out in the open – A lot of caster-killing plans that I’ve seen rely on sneaking up on a caster when they sleep, but that’s difficult because of the spells that many casters have access to. The best-known of these is the humble Rope Trick (PHB, p. 273), but at higher levels Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion (PHB, p. 256) is a ritzier (and longer-lasting) alternative. Eventually, casters get their grubby mitts on Genesis (Epic Level Handbook, p. 117) and get their own demiplane, which is both difficult to find and difficult to enter if you don’t know what you’re doing.
Nondetection (PHB, p. 257)– This low-level spell protects casters against Divination spells, and lasts for quite a while. Its big brother, Mind Blank (PHB, p. 253), does something similar.
Pinpointing a caster is hard – Once you’ve located a caster’s lair, you still have to actually find them. Superior Invisibility (SpC, p. 125) is the bogeyman here, as it essentially requires True Seeing (PHB, p. 296) as a counter, but all of the Invisibilities, illusions, and wall spells make it hard to close with a caster.
Casters know you’re coming – Thanks to an extensive list of divinations, Contact Other Plane (PHB, pp. 212-213) being the most famous (and argued-about), a caster can have a fairly good idea of what he can expect out of a day, even if he doesn’t know that you’re planning on jumping him while he’s on the john during his 8:30 constitutional.
Casters don’t get surprised – Even aside from predicting the future through divinations, it is extremely difficult to catch a caster with his pants down. The two most common ways casters render themselves unable to be surprised are Foresight (PHB, p. 233) and turning into a Dire Tortoise (Sandstorm, p. 151). Don’t expect the surprise round to save you.
(Greater) Anticipate Teleportation (SpC, p. 13) – These spells bear mentioning because they make teleporting right up to a caster a bad idea. The spells lasts all day at higher levels, she’ll know when you’re coming, and have time to prepare for you (or teleport away, if she doesn’t feel like fighting). It’s worth noting that it also makes tactical teleportation around a caster worse, too.
Sometimes They Come Back – Wow, you actually defeated that caster? I’m impressed. But don’t let your guard down yet; she could be back at any minute. Here are a few things to keep in mind after the fight is over.
Astral Projection (PHB, p. 201) – It’s a pretty common refrain in Wizard v. whoever debates that “even if you manage to beat the Wizard, it was really just an astral projection.” This “it was a Doombot” excuse is kinda lame, but also accurate; Astral Projection is unfair and needs to be taken into account. There are precious few things that can seriously threaten a creature that is astral projecting. Githyanki Silver Swords (MM p. 128 and XPH, p. 167) are the famous counter, but those are rare and only made for high-level Githyanki characters. You’re unlikely to find one without getting into a lot of trouble. Astral Dreadnaughts (Manual of the Planes, p. 159) can also do the trick, but good luck getting one of those to be your lackey.
Cheating Death Through Contingency – This is another one of those unfair tricks, but a Craft Contingent (CAr p. 139) Revivify (SpC, p. 176) will bring a creature back to life, likely some time after you’ve left. There are a number of similar spells that will achieve a similar effect, like a Craft Contingent Last Breath (SpC, p. 130) or a Craft Contingent True Resurrection (PHB, p. 296).
Liches Get All The, Well, You Know – A Lich (MM, pp. 166-168) can rejuvenate itself after a few days if you don’t destroy its phylactery, so be on the lookout for that. Ghosts (MM pp. 116-118) and a number of other creatures can do something similar.
A Special Note on AMFs, or; Why Antimagic Field Matters Less Than You Think It Does – AMFs (PHB, p. 200) are frequently brought up as examples of how to kill casters, as they will suppress caster defenses and leave them vulnerable. While not a terrible idea (particularly in low-op games), they really aren’t that great of an idea in higher-level, higher-op games for several reasons.
AMFs are small – Antimagic Fields are 10-ft. radius emanations, centered on you. You need to be really close to someone for it to take effect.
AMFs turn off your own gear – If you’ve got an AMF active, you probably aren’t going to be approaching a caster who doesn’t want to get touched. You will need, at the very least, a nonmagical, natural means of flight (and to move fast) if you want to get close to a caster with the AMF on. If your plan is to turn the AMF on when you get close, you’ve got all the normal problems of approaching a caster and not dying.
Spells can go through AMFs – Because D&D is silly, there are spells that can still have effects in an AMF - specifically, instantaneous Conjuration spells. Because Wizards of the Coast didn’t feel like being terribly clear on a number of rules, there are varying readings of AMF (not helped by the optional rules presented in Rules Compendium) that have different implications on how they can interact. I have bolded spells that can be cast into an AMF even under the most restrictive interpretation (essentially where an object must be created outside of an AMF and tossed in). The rest may or may not work depending on how, exactly, your DM rules AMFs. Here, then, is a partial list of said spells that can be used offensively:
Acid Breath (SpC, p. 7)
Acid Storm (SpC, p. 7)
Arc of Lightning (SpC, p. 15)
Blast of Flame (SpC, p. 31)
Blast of Sand (Sandstorm, p. 112)
Bombardment (SpC, p. 37)
Comefall (SpC, p. 50)
Deadly Lahar (CM, p. 101)
Death By Thorns (BoVD, p. 91)
Deific Vengeance (SpC, p. 62)
Drown and Mass Drown(SpC, p. 74)
Fire and Brimstone (CM, p. 104)
Frostbite (Frostburn, p. 95)
Hail of Stone (SpC, pp. 108-109)
Ice Darts (Frostburn, pp. 98-99)
Ice Knife (Spell Compendium, p. 119)
Icelance (SpC, pp. 119)
Laogzed's Breath (Serpent Kingdoms, p. 156)
Lava Missile (Serpent Kingdoms, p. 156)
Lava Splash (Serpent Kingdoms, p. 156)
Melf's Unicorn Arrow (PHBII, pp. 119-120)
Mudslide (Stormwrack, p. 119)
Nauseating Breath (SpC, p. 146)
Obedient Avalance (SpC, pp. 148-149)
Orbs of X and Lesser Orbs of X (SpC, pp.150-151)
Quill Blast (SpC, p. 164)
Rushing Waters (SpC, p. 178)
Slime Hurl (CoR, p. 35)
Snow Wave (Frostburn, p. 104)
Splinterbolt (SpC, pp. 203-204)
Sudden Stalagmite (SpC, p. 213)
Swamp Lung (SpC, pp. 216-217)
Vitriolic Sphere (SpC, pp. 231-232)
Wall of Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm)
Wall of Salt (Sandstorm, p. 127)
Wall of Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm)
A few odd dual-school spells (Doom Scarabs, Firestride Exhalation, and Kelgore's Firebolt) may also work when cast into an AMF; ask your DM, or throw darts at a board if you’re the DM.
Some magical effects don’t turn off in AMFs – Constructs and corporeal undead don’t stop functioning in AMFs, though some of their abilities may do so, so watch out for a caster’s minions.
Some casters can cast in AMFs – Yes, wacky as it may seem, there are abilities that let casters do things in AMFs. Invoke Magic (Lords of Madness, p. 212) and Initiate of Mystra (Player’s Guide to Faerun, p. 81) are the big ones.
Contingencies – Carefully-worded contingencies, either via the spell (PHB, p. 213) or the items (Complete Arcane, p. 139) can take effect before the AMF takes effect, allowing the caster a get-out-of-jail-free card against AMFs.
The Tinfoil Hat – This is an old trick that revolves around shrinking (via Shrink Item, Polymorph Any Object, or some other similar spell) a large, hollow cone and wearing it as a hat. When the caster is affected by an AMF, the magic shrinking the cone will be suppressed, making it resume its normal size. As it does so, it will expand to encompass the caster’s square and cover her, breaking the AMF’s line of effect. The caster will then be free to cast spells again, likely a teleportation effect to get out of the AMF’s range.
(I'm "working" on the section about offensive caster options, but it's daunting enough that the whole thing is in limbo)

[Hazrond]

so, in a recent thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362476-so-i-ve-made-the-ultimate-anti-mage), someone claimed that they had made an incredibly effective mage-killer (spoiler: They hadn't). But that got me thinking: What would someone need to be able to do to fight and kill mages? What tasks should they be able to accomplish?

Take note, that this isn't a thread for build ideas. It is just a list of what a character who is dedicated to killing high-level, reasonably optimized wizards should be able to do. That way, we can just refer people who have a "mage-killer" here, and see how their builds stack up.


mobility
(note: Abilities that are only usable once or twice a day don't help here. Conjurer mcconjurerson can use uncanny preparation to cast plane shift twenty-three kajillion times a day)
[] flight: The character should, of course, be able to fly. In fact, he needs to fly faster than the mage.[/indent]
[] tactical teleportation: The character needs to be able to teleport. This doesn't remove the need for flight, because gravity, nor does flight remove the need for teleportation, because walls. [/indent]
[] long-distance teleportation: You need to get to the mage, quickly, with a high degree of accuracy.[/indent]
[] cross-plane transportation: Plane shift, gate, astral projection, and that's not even leaving core. The mage won't be sticking to the prime, that's for sure[/indent]

lock-down
[] aoos: If a mage casts a spell in melee range, you need to be able to punish him for it, preferably in a way that actually keeps him from getting off that twinned maximized shivering touch.[/indent]
[] movement prevention: That 5 foot sword range doesn't do anything if the mage moves ten feet back. You need to be able to stop him from moving, in any way, forever.[/indent]
[] teleportation: You need to have a way to stop it, both towards and away from you. This includes cross-dimensional travel, ethereal travel, and motherf*****g rope trick![/indent]

anti-magic
[] um, duh[/indent]
[] you need to be able to stop the mage from casting spells that do things. Also, spells that don't do things, because magic is tricksy.[/indent]
[] wait, that isn't specific enough. So...[/indent]

things you need to be able to stop
[] direct damage: Direct damage is weaker than other things that wizards can do in the same way that a ten megaton nuke is weaker than a hundred megaton nuke. That means you need:[/indent]
[][] health: Enough to absorb any damage that you take[/indent][/indent]
[][] high ac: Really friggen high. True strike gives +20 to an attack roll.[/indent][/indent]
[][] high touch ac: Most targeted spells are either ranged touch, or touch. And spectral hand lets them all be ranged.[/indent][/indent]
[][] high saves: Duh. But half damage on a successful save still sucks, so...[/indent][/indent]
[][] energy immunity: To all five kinds. Force, well... Hope you listened to the bit about health.[/indent][/indent]
[] summons: Chain-gating solars aside, a mage can dump a hordeload of minions on your head. That means you need to be able to:[/indent]
[][] stop extraplaner summoning: Your sword doesn't do you any good if you are literally buried in succubi. At least, not the one in your hand.[/indent][/indent]
[][] stop extraplaners v2.0: But the above is difficult. So barring that, you need to be able to keep the minions away from you[/indent][/indent]
[][] kill lots of stuff at once: You know what sucks? Mowing through a couple hundred cubic feet of dominated fighter, one attack at a time.[/indent][/indent]
[] mind screwery: Because it is never, never a good idea to poke stuff to see if it's illusionary. That means you need:[/indent]
[][] immunity to enchantment: Yes, you need mind blank.[/indent][/indent]
[][] immunity to illusion: True seeing, too.[/indent][/indent]
[][] immunity to divination: Not, strictly speaking, mind screwery, but i didn't want to make a new category. Basically, don't let yourself get scried (scryed? Scry'd? Scridided?), ever. And make it back-compatible to the beginning of your familial line, too.[/indent][/indent]
[] magical lockdown: Grease. Forcecage. Freezing fog. Forcecage. Evard's enormous black... Tentacles. Stinking cloud. Forcecage. If you can't get to the mage, you can't hurt him. That means you need:[/indent]
[][] to be able to avoid all that stuff. See the above section on mobility.[/indent][/indent]
[][] also, freedom of movement. Which practically goes without saying.[/indent][/indent]

finding the wizard
[] you need to get information about the mage, find him, and get to him. Yes this is hard. Because he has, and you need to beat:[/indent]
[][] abjurations (vs. Divination): Nondetection, misdirection, mind blank[/indent][/indent]
[][] abjurations (vs. You): Guards and wards, a door with an explosive rune on it, anticipate teleportation, a key with ten explosive runes on it, forbiddence, oh god so many explosive runes everywhere (make it stop make it stop).[/indent][/indent]
[][] i'm sorry, your wizard is in another dimension: Astral projection, genesis, motherf*****g rope trick!!!!![/indent][/indent]

hurting the wizard
[] you need:[/indent]
[][] initiative: He has nerveskitter, foresight, and celerity. If he casts celerity and then time stop, you lose. Don't lose.[/indent][/indent]
[][] high to-hit. As in, + yes.[/indent][/indent]
[][] to hit ethereal stuff: Blink is a thing, folks![/indent][/indent]
[][] miss chance negation: So is displacement. But also mirror image, and invisibility.[/indent][/indent]
[][] tons of damage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozfuc08hmbi): Kill him in one hit. Through any and all dr. This is perhaps the most important bit.[/indent][/indent]

keeping him dead
[] if he comes back to life, you lose. Figure it out.[/indent]

actions
[] less an actual category than a hazy meta-category, but your friendly neighborhood conjurer can teleport as a standard and a free action. You need to be able to do stuff with every action you have, and be able to react and prevent anything that the mage can do with his standard, move, free, swift, and immediate actions, as well as the extra set of all the above that he gets from celerity.[/indent]


other notes: On the forums, a wizard is assumed to be good at everything at once. In practice, this is limited by availability of books, time constraints, and the patience of the players and the dm. But while it is difficult for a mage to have every trick, he could have any trick- and therefore, you, as a killer of mages, need to be able to deal with every trick (theoretical optimization aside).

mage: An arcane spellcaster. Generally assumed here to be a wizard (because they can do the most shenanigans), but also sorcerers, beguilers, bards, dread necromancers, and (snrk) warmages.

Lockdown: The ability to stop someone else from doing something.

Celerity + time stop: A powerful and effective spell combination which you need to be able to stop.

Grease: An even more powerful spell, which people without balance across the world have learned to fear.

Explosive runes: Perhaps the second-most devastating spell ever to be invented, it spells doom for those without immunity to force damage

rope trick: aaaaarrrgh!!!!!!!!!
:smallfrown:

so, pitch in with suggestions, tell me what i've missed. All together now!

what sorcery is this!?! What have you done to my screen!

[kardar233]

I don't know how you're doing it, but your post completely breaks the forum formatting for me, writing outside the post borders and all over everything. Is anyone else having this problem?

[Karnith]

I don't know how you're doing it, but your post completely breaks the forum formatting for me, writing outside the post borders and all over everything. Is anyone else having this problem?
Yes, I believe that everyone else is having this problem.

[Vhaidara]

Okay, so it isn't just me.

[eggynack]

Yeah, it's actually kinda cool looking, if annoying, and extra posts have changed the pattern in nifty ways. In any case, it might be worth noting that, unlike in the thread noted, you really want to keep level as low as possible, picking up your trick(s) quickly. If you toss out a 20th level mundane anti-magic build, and your name's not Tippy, then it just tends to come across as laughable. It's just not a fight that these builds are ever equipped to handle, at least not at reasonable optimization levels.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Step 1: Pick as low of a level as possible.
Step 2: Optimize more.
Step 3: Do really weird formatting, likely due to excessive use of Indent.

Basically I agree with eggy. A nice trick to have at lower levels is stealth and pouncing in the surprise round.

[deuxhero]

1: Better magic than the target mage has

Also reporting broken formating here.

[eggynack]

A nice trick to have at lower levels is stealth and pouncing in the surprise round.
Yeah, mundane stealth really tends to put casters on the veritable optimization back foot, in that the caster specifically needs to have planned a way around darkstalker in order to deal with it, or otherwise have defenses sufficient that they can take the punch. Casters do have countermeasures (wizards have mindbender+mindsight, druids have aberration wild shape for ethergaunt form, psions have touchsight, most anyone can get lifesight, and I dunno if there's a cleric specific trick), but they are often somewhat difficult to obtain or maintain. From the caster's perspective, it's tricky but doable, which is just about the best endorsement that any plan is going to get.

[torrasque666]

MY EYES! THEY BURN!!!!! Nothing to add, just reporting borkedness as well.

[Dorian Gray]

My formatting is also strange. I'm gonna try something.

Edit: Got it. Of course, if you quoted me, the quote is screwed up, so please change it.
Edit Edit: It should be noted that this Anti-Mage doesn't necessarily have to be some non-magical schlub with a couple of feats. In fact, he could easily be another wizard (certainly one of the easier ways of passing these tests). If I had to make a build that would pass muster, it would be a Cleric of Wee Jas or Vecna, protected by a sculpted AMF (gotta preserve those personal buffs) and laying waste with Disjunctions (sculpted into 220 foot lines, of course). He would carry a eight-foot mace, just to look cool, and have more persisted buffs than some sorcerers have spells known.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Yeah, mundane stealth really tends to put casters on the veritable optimization back foot, in that the caster specifically needs to have planned a way around darkstalker in order to deal with it, or otherwise have defenses sufficient that they can take the punch. Casters do have countermeasures (wizards have mindbender+mindsight, druids have aberration wild shape for ethergaunt form, psions have touchsight, most anyone can get lifesight, and I dunno if there's a cleric specific trick), but they are often somewhat difficult to obtain or maintain. From the caster's perspective, it's tricky but doable, which is just about the best endorsement that any plan is going to get.Mindsight has the pesky limitation of only acting like blindsense and not blindsight, though a well-placed glitterdust can mitigate that issue. Touchsight has the incredibly pesky issue of having limited duration (unless you're a high level crystal master), so it's close to irrelevant in an ambush scenario. Lifesight is technically blocked just by covering yourself with clothing/goggles (sundark ones if you want to be cool) head to toe so the life-seer has no LoS to the actual "light" shed by the living creature. Also, the sneaky one can be undead as well.

Once the druids start wildshaping into the stranger aberrations, though, it's pretty much GG.

[eggynack]

Mindsight has the pesky limitation of only acting like blindsense and not blindsight, though a well-placed glitterdust can mitigate that issue. Touchsight has the incredibly pesky issue of having limited duration (unless you're a high level crystal master), so it's close to irrelevant in an ambush scenario. Lifesight is technically blocked just by covering yourself with clothing/goggles (sundark ones if you want to be cool) head to toe so the life-seer has no LoS to the actual "light" shed by the living creature. Also, the sneaky one can be undead as well.

Once the druids start wildshaping into the stranger aberrations, though, it's pretty much GG.
Yeah, these things definitely aren't perfect. You can do reasonably for yourself, but there's usually some hole in any plan. Darkstalker is cool like that. It's highly possible that the best solution, much of the time (though I hold that mindsight's blindsense effect is usually going to be sufficient), is going to be just making that one big attack count for less. That's what I ended up doing the last time this came up, in a conversation about effective methods of druid murder. Searched for a solution for awhile, and then I realized that I could just boost AC in traditional ways, maybe boost HP too, and the druid would survive the attack most or all of the time. Other casters have different methods of achieving similar ends. I really to like the total vision method though, which I came up with later. Don't think I've seen that mentioned much by not-me folk.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Yeah, that conversation was with me. Desmodu Hunting Bats, Primal X/Heart of X spells, and various AC boosters came up.

I think at a certain point the mage slayer needs serious magic to pump his stats, through a form-altering ability and/or his own spells (or at least serious consideration of X stat to Y bonus stuff). An incantatrix, for instance, can pretty easily manage to get very high stealth numbers, pounce, touch attacks with a large attack bonus, and a partial charge range outside of most always-on detection systems. But then it's just caster v. caster.

[eggynack]

Yeah, that conversation was with me. Desmodu Hunting Bats, Primal X/Heart of X spells, and various AC boosters came up.
Well, that works then. I'm glad I came up with an alternate solution between then and now though, cause it's a cool sort of thing, and I get to whip on my nifty shades of progress. Like so: :smallcool:. Pretty sure it's not going to happen much more though, at least on the monster finding axis.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well, that works then. I'm glad I came up with an alternate solution between then and now though, cause it's a cool sort of thing, and I get to whip on my nifty shades of progress. Like so: :smallcool:. Pretty sure it's not going to happen much more though, at least on the monster finding axis.The moral for me is that PCs should focus on getting these various sensory capabilities because being jumped is just the worst.

[Seppo87]

My favorite use of AMF is with Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow.
You can make the AMF originate from squares, or from the enemy himself. Combine with Factotum's extra action for maximum fun.
You can even shoot an AMF over a forcecage, preventing any supernatural attempt at escaping it

I don't know why I've never seen it around. I think it's a pretty fun, pretty effective trick. Of course it can be countered, but one assumes the character is built to be a decent manyshot archer with a forcebow in the first place.

i.e. half elf Duskblade1/Factotum8/Chameleon9/AA2
(duskblade is to qualify for AA)

get as many FOI as you can and that's it.

[maniacalmojo]

I had an idea for a templar styled charecter who was designed strictly to fight mages.

Things i wanted him to have

-A way to point and delete active effects (Suddenly your fly does not work from 100ft up)
-A way to throw a sticky sort of magic area around a mage so no items/spells/SLA ect would work for a duration
- A way to literally run through magic meant to slow or create difficult terrain (such as dispelling greese or similar spells without making any action or interrupting a movement)
- A smite like ability that destroyed one of the highest level spells the mage can cast and then do damage based on level while simultaniously shutting down that spell level for x amount of time.
-A way to re-activate a portal of any kind and travel directly to the mage regardless of plane. If the space is too small or if you act quick enough you can literally just recast their portal and send them straight back to where you are,
- attacks can dispell anything from the enchantment/conjuration and illusion schools.
- Can see through all illusions and magical effects as if they were not there. (avoids things like invisible fog)
- Sunder works on magic weapons without negatives and treats it as a common weapon of its type.
-Has scaling DR, Saves, spell resistance, and immunities to everything magic related that raises by level.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I had an idea for a templar styled charecter who was designed strictly to fight mages.

Things i wanted him to have*snip*Most of this sounds like Cleric with some items, but some of it is a little more esoteric.

-A way to point and delete active effects (Suddenly your fly does not work from 100ft up)Dispel Magic (+inquisition domain), dispelling weapons.

-A way to throw a sticky sort of magic area around a mage so no items/spells/SLA ect would work for a durationAntimagic field sounds about right; if you want that to be put somewhere else, Arcane Archer or Master Specialist (Abjur) 10 + Reach spell will do it.

A way to literally run through magic meant to slow or create difficult terrain (such as dispelling greese or similar spells without making any action or interrupting a movement)Freedom of Movement.
- A smite like ability that destroyed one of the highest level spells the mage can cast and then do damage based on level while simultaniously shutting down that spell level for x amount of time.Dispelling weapons and/or Reaving Dispel.
-A way to re-activate a portal of any kind and travel directly to the mage regardless of plane. If the space is too small or if you act quick enough you can literally just recast their portal and send them straight back to where you are,Trace Teleport (psionic power) for the former is all I can think of. For the latter, Wish does exactly this, and it's a really powerful ability so I would expect it to be a higher level thing like that.

- attacks can dispell anything from the enchantment/conjuration and illusion schools.Dispelling weapons...

- Can see through all illusions and magical effects as if they were not there. (avoids things like invisible fog)Blindsight without true seeing will handle this pretty well, if you're truly worried about invisible fog.
- Sunder works on magic weapons without negatives and treats it as a common weapon of its type.Adamantine weapon?
-Has scaling DR, Saves, spell resistance, and immunities to everything magic related that raises by level.DMM Persist spells related to this? Clerics literally have spells that give them SR, spell immunity, DR, saves, etc.

[Karnith]

My favorite use of AMF is with Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow.
You can make the AMF originate from squares, or from the enemy himself. Combine with Factotum's extra action for maximum fun.
You can even shoot an AMF over a forcecage, preventing any supernatural attempt at escaping it

I don't know why I've never seen it around. I think it's a pretty fun, pretty effective trick. Of course it can be countered, but one assumes the character is built to be a decent manyshot archer with a forcebow in the first place.
Imbue Arrow used to shoot AMFs gets brought up from time to time, but it's not discussed that much as an anti-caster tactic because archery is shut down pretty handily by things like Wind Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm), Friendly Fire (Exemplars of Evil, p. 27), and Stormrage (SpC, p. 210), it generally only works if you can actually hit the person with the AMF-imbued arrow or in tight spaces, it tends to only come online at high levels, and because most anti-caster discussions on this board focus on mundane anti-caster tactics.

[Seppo87]

Imbue Arrow used to shoot AMFs gets brought up from time to time, but it's not discussed that much as an anti-caster tactic because archery is shut down pretty handily by things like Wind Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm), Friendly Fire (Exemplars of Evil, p. 27), and Stormrage (SpC, p. 210), it generally only works if you can actually hit the person with the AMF-imbued arrow or in tight spaces, it tends to only come online at high levels, and because most anti-caster discussions on this board focus on mundane anti-caster tactics.
it is widely believed that a force arrow would bypass a wind wall

[Karnith]

it is widely believed that a force arrow would bypass a wind wall
An arrow shot by a Force bow is still an arrow, and would hence be deflected by a Wind Wall. If you're using the oft-cited interpretation that Force bows turn arrows into force projectiles (and hence stop being arrows), then you lose the benefit of Imbue Arrow.

[Gavinfoxx]

There are ways to get infinite hit points as a mage -- you need ways to do some serious hardcore dispelling...

[Jormengand]

An arrow shot by a Force bow is still an arrow, and would hence be deflected by a Wind Wall. If you're using the oft-cited interpretation that Force bows turn arrows into force projectiles (and hence stop being arrows), then you lose the benefit of Imbue Arrow.

Of course, you could always shoot a barbarian with the arrow instead, and have him charge at the wizard. Shut up, he's on a griffon, he can fly. :smalltongue:

Of course, this assumes that a barbarian, even one with an AMF, is getting near a wizard, but shh.

[Brookshw]

Did we mention hide life shenanigans? Because we still might have to kill something that's technically immortal in every sense.

[maniacalmojo]

Most of this sounds like Cleric with some items, but some of it is a little more esoteric.
Dispel Magic (+inquisition domain), dispelling weapons.
Antimagic field sounds about right; if you want that to be put somewhere else, Arcane Archer or Master Specialist (Abjur) 10 + Reach spell will do it.
Freedom of Movement.Dispelling weapons and/or Reaving Dispel.Trace Teleport (psionic power) for the former is all I can think of. For the latter, Wish does exactly this, and it's a really powerful ability so I would expect it to be a higher level thing like that.
Dispelling weapons...
Blindsight without true seeing will handle this pretty well, if you're truly worried about invisible fog.Adamantine weapon?DMM Persist spells related to this? Clerics literally have spells that give them SR, spell immunity, DR, saves, etc.

Yes but this would be a class that has all of those in one. Also a brainstorm type of thing.

[Ingus]

A Pc I saw was a good anti-magic meleer.
He was a spiked chain tripper swordsage with spellfire, lots of good maneuvers, dimensional anchor effects and AoO when enemy casted defensively (and a full party as a support :smallsmile:).

It was good, but good only in terms of practical optimization.

[Segev]

Spell Stowaway (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellStowaway) will help once you get to epic levels, but is still going to be insufficient by itself. Still, being able to tag along on a Time Stop and a Teleport will do a lot to inhibit a mage's usual front-end "I win" tactics.

[Dorian Gray]

Did we mention hide life shenanigans? Because we still might have to kill something that's technically immortal in every sense.

Nah, you just IHS him not being mortal. :smallwink:

I had an idea for a templar styled charecter who was designed strictly to fight mages.

Things i wanted him to have

-A way to point and delete active effects (Suddenly your fly does not work from 100ft up)
-A way to throw a sticky sort of magic area around a mage so no items/spells/SLA ect would work for a duration
- A way to literally run through magic meant to slow or create difficult terrain (such as dispelling greese or similar spells without making any action or interrupting a movement)
- A smite like ability that destroyed one of the highest level spells the mage can cast and then do damage based on level while simultaniously shutting down that spell level for x amount of time.
-A way to re-activate a portal of any kind and travel directly to the mage regardless of plane. If the space is too small or if you act quick enough you can literally just recast their portal and send them straight back to where you are,
- attacks can dispell anything from the enchantment/conjuration and illusion schools.
- Can see through all illusions and magical effects as if they were not there. (avoids things like invisible fog)
- Sunder works on magic weapons without negatives and treats it as a common weapon of its type.
-Has scaling DR, Saves, spell resistance, and immunities to everything magic related that raises by level.

I added a number of these (or at least I will have in 2 minutes).

Edit: By the way, Karnith, you are amazing.

[Karnith]

It is very incomplete (though better than it was a day ago!) and only kinda-sorta topical, but here is another part of my unfinished guide, about anti-caster options that aren't very good:
Options That Aren’t As Good As You Think They Are – Antimagic Fields got their own section, but a number of other abilities, feats, and items are tailor-made to target casters. Unfortunately, because this game is often poorly designed, many of them don’t actually work very well against casters. Here are a few to stay away from:
Antimagic field items – We’ve already gone over why AMFs are generally not the best idea to use against an enemy caster, but I will also say here that items that produce AMFs are generally not the best investment. AMFs items are also plagued by high prices, which make their use even harder to justify. The worst of the bunch is probably the Antimagic Shackles (Book of Exalted Deeds, p. 116), which come in at a cool 132,000 gold – meaning that the manacles would run almost the entirety of a 14th-level character’s recommended WBL – and additionally only function when fastened to a creature and only radiate to a distance of 5 ft, rather than AMF’s usual 10 ft. Antimagic Torcs (Underdark, p. 73) and Bulwarks of Antimagic (Draconomicon, p. 118) both produce AMFs once per day, and are much more reasonably priced at 25,000 gold and 27,580 gold, respectively, but you still need to carefully consider whether your resources might not be better spent in some other area.
Antimagic Ray (SpC, p. 14) – We’ve already gone over why AMFs aren’t the best option to use against casters, but Antimagic Ray doesn’t have the worst downsides of AMF. Importantly, it doesn’t turn off your own abilities! Unfortunately, it adds a bunch of other weaknesses. While Antimagic Ray has a longer range than an AMF, it still only has a range of close. As a ray, it requires a ranged touch attack to hit, and while a character’s touch AC is almost always lower than her regular AC, you still need to be able to see and hit the caster with it. It also gets shut down by fun effects like Ray Deflection (SpC, p. 166). And in addition to hitting with the ray, Antimagic Ray also allows a Will save to negate the effect. As you may expect, targeting a caster’s strongest save really isn’t the best strategy. Finally, the targeted character still benefits from all of her magic items – she would even be able to use spell trigger and spell completion items. So, please, just stay away from this spell. It’s bad and should feel bad.
Ioun stones, pale lavender and lavender and green (DMG, pp. 260-261) – These absorb spells in a manner similar to Rods of Absorption, which might make them seem quite useful in a fight against a caster. Unfortunately, they’re not very good. First, they only work on spells of up to a certain level. Pale Lavender works on spells of up to 4th level, and Lavender and Green on spells of up to 8th level. Second, they can only absorb a limited number of spell levels each before becoming useless – Pale Lavender Ioun Stones can absorb a total of 20 spell levels, while their Lavender and Green counterparts can absorb a total of 50 spell levels. While these limits would be acceptable in a one-off arena fight, they are prohibitively expensive in actual games. Third, they act like Rods of Absorption, meaning that they only work on single-target or ray spells; area spells and (non-ray) effect spells will work as normal. Finally, and probably worst of all, they require a character to ready an action to absorb incoming spells, meaning that they can only be used once per turn (under most circumstances) and eat up valuable actions that could otherwise be used to actually, you know, fight the caster.
Momentary Disjunction (Tome of Magic, p. 68) – The capstone ability of the Witch Slayer PrC, this ability puts the target under the effects of an AMF. Like Antimagic Ray, this has a definite advantage over AMF in that it doesn’t turn off your own spells and magic effects. It even has a swift action activation, allowing the character to keep fighting while using the ability. Momentary Disjunction is better than AMF, but it also has a number of disadvantages that make it hard to use to good effect. First, Momentary Disjunction only works on a single target within a range of 30 feet. That’s a pretty small range, and it requires that you be able to target the caster, which is often a task in itself. Next, it allows a Will save to negate the effect, which is really not the save you want to target against most casters. Worse, the save DC is based on a tertiary stat for most non-casters (Charisma), though it does at least have a high base DC. While it may be effective at the level that the ability comes online (level 10, generally), it doesn’t scale well at higher levels. Lastly, the effect lasts for a single round and cannot be used again for 5 more rounds, meaning that if it doesn’t work the first time, Witch Slayer is probably going to die before he gets a second chance. Momentary Disjunction isn’t the worst ability (and probably the best of the options in this section), but don’t rely on it, especially at higher levels and optimization levels.
Rod of absorption (DMG, p. 234) – Rods of Absorption, while not as bad as the Ioun Stones mentioned earlier, are still not a great investment in most situations. First, like many rods, a Rod of Absorption only functions when held. While a character can certainly have the rod in-hand at all times, doing so generally precludes a number of actions that require two hands, such as wielding a weapon in two hands, wielding a weapon while casting a spell, and using many other items while having a weapon in hand. Second, a single Rod of Absorption can only ever absorb 50 spell levels, after which it cannot be used defensively, limiting its long-term effectiveness (depending on your situation, this may not be a problem, but it bears mentioning). Third, it can only absorb single-target and ray spells, meaning that area spells and non-ray effect spells will function normally against the Rod’s bearer. Clocking in at 50,000 gold, Rods of Absorption are additionally too expensive to use regularly at most levels in games that are even close to WBL. Even at high levels, they are a significant chunk of change. While they are not the worst choice in a one-off arena match with a caster, they are probably not going to be affordable in regular games.
Rod of cancellation (DMG, p. 234) – Often seen as an answer to force effects like Wall of Force or Forcecage, rods of cancellation are ridiculously inefficient. They cost 11,000 gold each, making them prohibitively expensive as consumables until very high levels, function once, and have very narrow applications. The normal use, draining magical items, is essentially pointless – if you are in a position where you can make a touch attack against a caster and expect her item to fail its Will save (which will generally use her Will bonus), you should be murdering the caster, not focusing on an item. It can also be used against some force effects, but there are almost always better answers than a Rod of Cancellation – teleportation will generally be sufficient. Proponents of this item’s use will probably point to its use against the old cage of death routine - briefly, it is a sequence of spells generally following the order of Time Stop (PHB, p. 294), Dimension Lock (PHB, p. 221), a damage over time spell like Cloudkill (PHB, p. 210) or Maw of Chaos (SpC, p. 140), and ending with a Forcecage (PHB, p. 233), with the intent that the victim is trapped in a Forcecage and unable to teleport out while another spell effect kills the target. While keeping a Rod of Cancellation on-hand for this situation may be worth it in a one-off arena match, the item is simply too expensive for its limited uses and narrow application in normal games.

[Eldariel]

Arcane Sight is an easy, potentially permanent answer to most stealth users, who shine like Christmas trees with all their magic item auras. Something I do on all my sufficiently high level mages that 1st level slots are expendable is hide all my auras with Magic Aura on high levels (not infallible, but most I'd bother with), but for non-casters that's slightly less trivial. So that's something to plan around too.

Basically, Darkstalker covers the basic vision modes. You should therefore plan for:
Mindsight (Mind Blank might or might not work)
Lifesense (well, you can always Hide Life or be not quite alive or some such)
Arcane Sight (mostly, just hide your magic item auras somehow, as well as any persistent buffs on you)
Touchsight (tricky, incorporeality could probably work - breaking line of effect would too)

[Anthrowhale]

High touch AC + High hp + High saves + Evasion + Mettle is inadequate vs. direct damage. ETI Greater Arcane Fusion [ETI Arcane Fusion [ETI EM HoS] [ETI EM HoS], ETI EM HoS] where:

ETI = Easy Twin Invisible
EM = Easy Max
HoS = Hail of Stone

inflicts 400 damage with no save, no attack roll, and no SR. This can be boosted much higher with more work. The only effective way to deal with direct damage is via immunity to damage.

You also need immune to ability damage and a way to deal with negative levels.

I also consider lockdown basically ineffective vs. a spellcaster. It's better to invest resources in never letting them act.

[Anthrowhale]

A lot of spells go through AMFs – Conjuration spells with an instantaneous duration go right through AMFs (you can’t cast them in AMFs, though).

The rules are more subtle than 'Instantaneous Conjurations go through AMFs'. In particular AoE instantataneous conjuration(creation) spells with a point of origin inside an AMF fail and those that partially overlap with an AMF partially fail. The clarification for this is in the Rules Compendium, although it does not contradict any previous rule.

[Karnith]

The rules are more subtle than 'Instantaneous Conjurations go through AMFs'. In particular AoE instantataneous conjuration(creation) spells with a point of origin inside an AMF fail and those that partially overlap with an AMF partially fail. The clarification for this is in the Rules Compendium, although it does not contradict any previous rule.
Assuming that you're talking about the antimagic rules on page 11 (are there relevant rules elsewhere in RC? I don't recall any), would you mind elaborating? I don't see why it would apply to instantaneous Conjuration spells; Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) specifically calls out that they work as normal in an AMF, and RC doesn't change that.
Please let's not get into the RC rules hierarchy debate

An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.

Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might.

Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

Spells don’t function in an antimagic area, but an antimagic area doesn’t block line of effect. If a spell’s point of origin is inside an antimagic area, that spell is entirely suppressed. When a spell’s point of origin is located outside an anti-magic area, but part of that spell’s area overlaps the antimagic area, that spell’s effect is suppressed where the two areas overlap. Time elapsed withinan antimagic area still counts against a spell’s duration.

If an instantaneous spell is entirely suppressed, that spell is effectively canceled. (It’s suppressed, and its duration instantaneously expires.) An instantaneous area spell is only entirely suppressed and effectively canceled if its point of origin is within the antimagic area. Otherwise it works like any other area spell that has a point of origin outside the antimagic area—only where its area overlaps the antimagic area is its effect is suppressed (and effectively canceled).

[Seppo87]

Is "Ring the Golden Bell" a decent option against casters?
It can be used to sunder a ring of FoM and, by raw, to grapple (with scorpion's grasp) dragging the caster forcefully in your square.
Let's assume we have a wis based character here, with intuitive attack, (maybe) 1 level in Shiba Protector, (maybe) yondalla's sense, definitely Stand Still, Thicket of Blades and Mage Slayer.
Using most of WBL to pump initiative. Mark of stars + celerity scroll
Heroic Surge or other methods of getting extra actions, just to be extra sure that we have the time to either dispel or sunder before grappling at a distance

does this sound viable?

[Karnith]

Of all the phrases I never wanted to see again, I think that "sunder a Ring of Freedom of Movement" ranks near the top. :smallannoyed:

Regardless:

Is "Ring the Golden Bell" a decent option against casters?
You could try it, but it has bad pre-reqs, has a very short range, and runs up against the problems with trying to hit a caster with ranged attacks (e.g. Friendly Fire). You'd probably be better off just getting a ton of reach with a reach weapon (through size increases, Inhuman Reach, etc.).

It can be used to sunder a ring of FoM and, by raw, to grapple (with scorpion's grasp) dragging the caster forcefully in your square.
How are you seeing and identifying the ring? And what is your plan when they get Freedom of Movement through some other effect? What's the plan if the caster is incorporeal? Or if they're, you know, enormous?

Basically, if you can not only sunder a caster's ring but also hit him with an unarmed attack and grapple him towards you, you'd probably be better off just murdering/incapacitating him.

[Segev]

One thing that seems relevant is to bring up Sleight of Hand. I believe it technically works for pickpocketing on a flat DC, and the contested part of the roll is only to see if they notice. If you can snatch a key item, that might buy you time to try something. But it'd have to be pretty well-targeted, I think.

[Brookshw]

Nah, you just IHS him not being mortal. :smallwink:



Perhaps indeed, we'll have to see how the debacle turns out :smallwink:

[Anthrowhale]

Assuming that you're talking about the antimagic rules on page 11 (are there relevant rules elsewhere in RC? I don't recall any), would you mind elaborating?


You have the relevant rules.



The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result


The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an AM-field.



... If a spell’s point of origin is inside an antimagic area, that spell is entirely suppressed. ...
If an instantaneous spell is entirely suppressed, that spell is effectively canceled....


The casting of instantaneous conjurations within an AM-field are affected by the AM-field.

The exception clause in the AMF description is a clarification/reiteration that nonmagical effects created by spells are unaffected by AMF. The meaning of AMF does not change if you remove it since AMF does not affect nonmagical things and instantaneous Conjuration(Creation) spells have nonmagical effects.



If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.


Note the "assembled through magic" clause above---that's what an AMF stops.

[Darkweave31]

I have a feeling that natural stealth (high skills, deepstalker, hide in plain sight, etc.) is probably one of the best ways to deal with most arcane casters who, in general, don't have much in the way of spot or listen. But even then, foresight+celerity (common in high op) and any attempt at an attack turns into the wizard stopping you dead in your tracks unless there's some way to remain hidden while attacking... and even then the wizard will still know an attack is coming and can defend himself or flee.

If you don't mind an anti-caster caster, cleric with initiate of mystra, divine defiance, and the inquisition domain is an effective and flavorful anti-mage owing to its ability to counterspell as an immediate action alongside some potent counter magic and utility magic to get the job done. Combine with dweomerkeeper for extra cheese.

[Karnith]

The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an AM-field.

The casting of instantaneous conjurations within an AM-field are affected by the AM-field.
I don't follow; the effects of instantaneous Conjurations explicitly function normally in AMFs. For the AMF to cancel out the casting of area spells into an AMF, it would need to suppress the effects (in addition to having the points of origin inside the AMF), which it explicitly does not do.

Oh, okay, you were saying something different than what I thought you were. By my reading of it, though, this still lets area spells affect the area inside of an AMF, provided that the point of origin remains outside of an AMF (which sort of makes sense, given that most area spells have their effects shoot out from the point of origin). Compare "When a spell’s point of origin is located outside an anti-magic area, but part of that spell’s area overlaps the antimagic area, that spell’s effect is suppressed where the two areas overlap" with "If a spell’s point of origin is inside an antimagic area, that spell is entirely suppressed."

It's a shame that AMF really just isn't intuitive at all. :smallannoyed:

The exception clause in the AMF description is a clarification/reiteration that nonmagical effects created by spells are unaffected by AMF. The meaning of AMF does not change if you remove it since AMF does not affect nonmagical things and instantaneous Conjuration(Creation) spells have nonmagical effects.
AMF does not only exempt the effects of Conjuration (Creation) spells. It exempts the effects of instantaneous Conjuration spells generally (i.e. including those not of the Creation subschool) - it is not a restatement of the Conjuration (Creation) rule, because it has a broader scope.

EDIT: I will make a note of the RC rule in that section of the guide, and call out spells that would work even under a very strict interpretation of AMF.

[Seppo87]

[color=blue]And what is your plan when they get Freedom of Movement through some other effect? What's the plan if the caster is incorporeal? Or if they're, you know, enormous?
there is no plan. No single character can have a plan for every single possible strategy a wizard could employ.
The same is probably true as well: is there a wizard that can be able to go adventuring normally and still be 100% sure no anti.mage will ever be able to kill him?
If I was playing an anti-mage I would care about having the most reliable strategy vs the largest chunk of casters. I wouldn never even try to have a plan to contrast every spell or feat they may possibly have.

[Karnith]

there is no plan. No single character can have a plan for every single possible strategy a wizard could employ.
My point was more that trying to win through grappling is a bad idea, particularly past mid levels; it just has too many counters, and rather than trying to counter the counters to grappling (say, by hoping that they get FoM from a ring, sundering a ring that you probably wouldn't even be able to see, let alone identify, and then attacking the caster), you'd be better off focusing on some other strategy (say, dealing lethal damage with your punches).

[eggynack]

there is no plan. No single character can have a plan for every single possible strategy a wizard could employ.
Freedom of movement is really the sort of thing you're going to want a reliable plan for, if you need to bypass it. Heart of water can just stay up all day, waiting for whatever issue comes to stop his main source of FoM, if he has one, and it's not much of a waste, because swimming ability is actually a decent secondary effect on occasion.


The same is probably true as well: is there a wizard that can be able to go adventuring normally and still be 100% sure no anti.mage will ever be able to kill him?
It depends on level, really. However, if we're talking about an anti-mage, we're usually talking about a guy that attacks mages, rather than a guy that is protecting himself from them. There's an implied level of initiative to it, and maybe surprise, and there are higher expectations for the level of success of any given plan. If the wizard is of reasonable level/optimization, and he's aware of the anti-mage before the attack, then I don't really think the anti-mage has much of a chance at all. Maybe more than 0, but maybe also not much higher.

If a plan falls apart this easily, then it's not a great plan. That's why stealth is generally a better plan, because while it can fall apart, it falls apart less easily, against less common defenses, and leads to pretty immediate success without chance of retribution. Grappling plans are pretty much the exact opposite, as they fall apart easily, under common defenses, and even if you successfully land a grapple, the wizard still has time to pull out a trick that you might not have been prepared for. Abrupt jaunt and benign transposition are two great examples of that. As a result, this is not the most reliable plan against the largest chunk of casters. I mean, seriously, druids are, if anything, even better against grappling, and clerics are probably reasonable as well.

[dextercorvia]

The rules are more subtle than 'Instantaneous Conjurations go through AMFs'. In particular AoE instantataneous conjuration(creation) spells with a point of origin inside an AMF fail and those that partially overlap with an AMF partially fail. The clarification for this is in the Rules Compendium, although it does not contradict any previous rule.

Anthrowhale! Good to see you. Just the other day I was searching for something else, and ran across our conversation about your LeShay Slayer. This very discussion about what is and is not possible in the AMF came up there.

[Dorian Gray]

Karnith, do you want to edit your second thing into your first post? I, for one, think it's really helpful. And Anthrowhale, I'm going to edit your post into the OP.

@Seppo87: I, for one, actually do believe that it is possible to have answers for anything a given wizard can do. Of course, my go-to for a character whose goal is to kill mages is a cleric, so...

[Seclora]

there is no plan. No single character can have a plan for every single possible strategy a wizard could employ.
The same is probably true as well: is there a wizard that can be able to go adventuring normally and still be 100% sure no anti.mage will ever be able to kill him?
If I was playing an anti-mage I would care about having the most reliable strategy vs the largest chunk of casters. I wouldn never even try to have a plan to contrast every spell or feat they may possibly have.

Bold for emphasis. From what I've seen most campaigns where magic is frowned upon also involve large, organized efforts to subdue casters. Perhaps it is the idea of going it alone that needs to be thrown out in order to successfully hunt magi?

Work in teams so you can hit him wherever he teleports. Focus less on killing him in the first attack and more on wearing him down: break his expensive stuff, force him to burn his contingencies, and if you're really lucky steal his spellbook. The strength of mundane characters is in persistent reliability, not single encounter tactics; force him to fight on your terms.
And for the love of Kord, Disjoin his Rope Trick!

[eggynack]

Work in teams so you can hit him wherever he teleports. Focus less on killing him in the first attack and more on wearing him down: break his expensive stuff, force him to burn his contingencies, and if you're really lucky steal his spellbook. The strength of mundane characters is in persistent reliability, not single encounter tactics; force him to fight on your terms.
And for the love of Kord, Disjoin his Rope Trick!
I disagree with your plan here, to the point where I think it may be the exact opposite. You make your move on a wizard, and he escapes, then what do you do? There's some implication that you can just find him, but it's not nearly so easy when his domain is the whole of the multi-verse, and meanwhile, he's very much capable of finding you. Putting together new defenses, new offenses, finding you, reaching you, it's all incredibly easy for a wizard. Not so for a team of mundanes, for whom every new plan tends to require the permanent expenditure of a large quantity of resources.

Once he knows who you are, and what you want, you're not going to be the one wearing him down, breaking his stuff, and forcing him to burn resources. He'll be the one doing that to you. A known enemy isn't much of a threat to a wizard, unless that known enemy is another full caster with a similar level of versatility. Just as was the case when we were talking about a solo mundane, here too the best plan is surprise. Hit him before he knows what he needs to protect himself from, and hit him hard enough that he won't be moving afterwards. That's what forcing him to fight on your terms means, because the plan you're talking about will inevitably lead to a fight that's on his terms.

[Dorian Gray]

I disagree with your plan here, to the point where I think it may be the exact opposite. You make your move on a wizard, and he escapes, then what do you do? There's some implication that you can just find him, but it's not nearly so easy when his domain is the whole of the multi-verse, and meanwhile, he's very much capable of finding you. Putting together new defenses, new offenses, finding you, reaching you, it's all incredibly easy for a wizard. Not so for a team of mundanes, for whom every new plan tends to require the permanent expenditure of a large quantity of resources.

Once he knows who you are, and what you want, you're not going to be the one wearing him down, breaking his stuff, and forcing him to burn resources. He'll be the one doing that to you. A known enemy isn't much of a threat to a wizard, unless that known enemy is another full caster with a similar level of versatility. Just as was the case when we were talking about a solo mundane, here too the best plan is surprise. Hit him before he knows what he needs to protect himself from, and hit him hard enough that he won't be moving afterwards. That's what forcing him to fight on your terms means, because the plan you're talking about will inevitably lead to a fight that's on his terms.

I totally agree, and in fact, I think that the only way to win is an overwhelming assault that instantly kills the mage beyond any possibility of resurrection. If you split up to find the mage (which you can't really do, because it's hard to find a wizard once he puts up defensive buffs), he picks you off one by one. A cleric gets an early jump on a wizard, because a wizard could have to find spells to beat a specific cleric while a cleric knows all of his spell list, so the cleric could have the advantage in the first and perhaps second encounter, but after that the wizard has "locked on" to his opponent and can just push an "I win!" button.

Edit: @ Seclora: My main problem with what you are saying is that it assumes that you can follow the mage after he teleports, which is really friggen hard even when you do have divinations. If the beguiler you are chasing casts nondetection, scrying is out of the question, and if he gets out mind blank, no divinations work, ever.

[Seclora]

I disagree with your plan here, to the point where I think it may be the exact opposite. You make your move on a wizard, and he escapes, then what do you do? There's some implication that you can just find him, but it's not nearly so easy when his domain is the whole of the multi-verse, and meanwhile, he's very much capable of finding you. Putting together new defenses, new offenses, finding you, reaching you, it's all incredibly easy for a wizard. Not so for a team of mundanes, for whom every new plan tends to require the permanent expenditure of a large quantity of resources.

Once he knows who you are, and what you want, you're not going to be the one wearing him down, breaking his stuff, and forcing him to burn resources. He'll be the one doing that to you. A known enemy isn't much of a threat to a wizard, unless that known enemy is another full caster with a similar level of versatility. Just as was the case when we were talking about a solo mundane, here too the best plan is surprise. Hit him before he knows what he needs to protect himself from, and hit him hard enough that he won't be moving afterwards. That's what forcing him to fight on your terms means, because the plan you're talking about will inevitably lead to a fight that's on his terms.

Then content yourself to hunting weak, inexperienced casters, or find yourself an Othar Trygvassen-type. Without magic, hunting down an optimized mid-high level wizard alone is more likely to get you killed than anything else. This is why adventurers move in parties.

And I apologize if I seemed to be implying stealth wasn't part of it. What I meant is that the appropriate time for stealth is when he arrives from his teleport. Catch him off guard at point A, repeat until you figure out where his points B-Z are, then have teams prepared and waiting at those points, camouflaged, misdirecting his divinations, and readied for his arrival. If he Celerity-teleports, he'll most likely arrive at one of your other 24 ambushes.
Lots of prep, very costly; not even going to bother denying it. If hunting wizards was easy it wouldn't be worth debating, would it?

[Dorian Gray]

Then content yourself to hunting weak, inexperienced casters, or find yourself an Othar Trygvassen-type. Without magic, hunting down an optimized mid-high level wizard alone is more likely to get you killed than anything else. This is why adventurers move in parties.

And I apologize if I seemed to be implying stealth wasn't part of it. What I meant is that the appropriate time for stealth is when he arrives from his teleport. Catch him off guard at point A, repeat until you figure out where his points B-Z are, then have teams prepared and waiting at those points, camouflaged, misdirecting his divinations, and readied for his arrival. If he Celerity-teleports, he'll most likely arrive at one of your other 24 ambushes.
Lots of prep, very costly; not even going to bother denying it. If hunting wizards was easy it wouldn't be worth debating, would it?

Makes sense. I personally like hunting mages with either clerics, archivists, or artificers (if not just wizards or sorcerers). Nothing wrong, fluff wise, with a wizard who wants to eliminate the competition, or a cleric who wants to get rid of dangerous arcane casters. Or an omnicidal artificer.

[eggynack]

Then content yourself to hunting weak, inexperienced casters, or find yourself an Othar Trygvassen-type. Without magic, hunting down an optimized mid-high level wizard alone is more likely to get you killed than anything else. This is why adventurers move in parties.
The team part is fine, though I'd admittedly prefer it if the anti-mage could handle mages of the same level on his own, or of a higher CR with a group, as is traditional. The problem is the tactics once you have the team.


And I apologize if I seemed to be implying stealth wasn't part of it. What I meant is that the appropriate time for stealth is when he arrives from his teleport. Catch him off guard at point A, repeat until you figure out where his points B-Z are, then have teams prepared and waiting at those points, camouflaged, misdirecting his divinations, and readied for his arrival. If he Celerity-teleports, he'll most likely arrive at one of your other 24 ambushes.
Lots of prep, very costly; not even going to bother denying it. If hunting wizards was easy it wouldn't be worth debating, would it?
It's just that it's completely unclear how you're actually accomplishing this. I mean, there are more than 24 places in the world, after all, and once plane shift enters the picture, we're talking multiple worlds. If you catch him off guard once, then by my estimation, that's really the end of the plan. If he manages to evade you for any reasonable length of time, and wizards are very good at doing so, then you're completely and utterly screwed. Your plan, and by association, all of your resources, should be invested in that one, sudden, powerful attack. Trying to attrition out a wizard isn't particularly viable against a wizard, by comparison, because wizards have simply massive quantities of resources, especially if they're given time.

[Dorian Gray]

The team part is fine, though I'd admittedly prefer it if the anti-mage could handle mages of the same level on his own, or of a higher CR with a group, as is traditional. The problem is the tactics once you have the team.


It's just that it's completely unclear how you're actually accomplishing this. I mean, there are more than 24 places in the world, after all, and once plane shift enters the picture, we're talking multiple worlds. If you catch him off guard once, then by my estimation, that's really the end of the plan. If he manages to evade you for any reasonable length of time, and wizards are very good at doing so, then you're completely and utterly screwed. Your plan, and by association, all of your resources, should be invested in that one, sudden, powerful attack. Trying to attrition out a wizard isn't particularly viable against a wizard, by comparison, because wizards have simply massive quantities of resources, especially if they're given time.

I guess that he's assuming that the mage won't have a huge number of places that he is easily ready to teleport away to. I mean, if you are getting charged at by a burly guy with an eight foot sword and you only have four seconds to think of a location, you probably will jump to the same couple places. Your childhood home, your tower, your school, maybe one or two getaway holes you've prepared, but odds are you won't be able to think of which of your bases have and haven't been compromised in the two seconds you have to cast.

[iTreeby]

Legend Lore seems important for dealing with a mage. Anything you learn from this spell is probably worth knowing. The casting time is a bit of a pain, but it's very low risk.

To beat a mage, you need to build up a profile on them you need to see where the chinks in their armor are. What is their favorite spell? where is there lair? who are their enemies? do they have a familiar? are they an adventurer? who do they work for? where are they from? If you can learn some things, you can use them to learn others. If you can build a profile on the mage, you can make a realistic path to victory.

[Bluydee]

What if you had an illithid, then put the emerald legion templates onto him, and go into illithid savant? Eat the tarrasque, get the strongest regeneration in the game, then be immune to damage. Eat an epic level handbook abomination and get abomination traits. The xixecal has constitution drain of 4, with a 58 DC. Lots of them have magic immunity, to all supernatural and magical effects, while devastation vermin have very high SR, as in 60.

[Karnith]

What if you had an illithid, then put the emerald legion templates onto him, and go into illithid savant? Eat the tarrasque, get the strongest regeneration in the game, then be immune to damage. Eat an epic level handbook abomination and get abomination traits. The xixecal has constitution drain of 4, with a 58 DC. Lots of them have magic immunity, to all supernatural and magical effects, while devastation vermin have very high SR, as in 60.
The gist of this (stacking tons of immunities and abilities through stealing abilities from creatures) has been done before; one version of such a build was the ExFighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265730-The-ExFighter).

The general argument against it is that bringing TO-level shenanigans to a game is probably going to get someone smacked. It may be effective in a strict RAW thought experiment scenario, but it's probably not going to help much for someone who wants to build an anti-caster character for a game, in much the same way that "Play Pun-Pun" or "Roll up a Terminator variant" aren't very helpful suggestions.

[Dorian Gray]

What if you had an illithid, then put the emerald legion templates onto him, and go into illithid savant? Eat the tarrasque, get the strongest regeneration in the game, then be immune to damage. Eat an epic level handbook abomination and get abomination traits. The xixecal has constitution drain of 4, with a 58 DC. Lots of them have magic immunity, to all supernatural and magical effects, while devastation vermin have very high SR, as in 60.

It's a good point, but once you do that it allows for a level of optimization well above and beyond anything seen in normal games. Being immune to all damage and magic ever sorta demands a response on the level of the omnificer or pun-pun. And then forcecage still works.

[Bluydee]

Be a warblade, then use martial study to gain shadow stride?

[Anthrowhale]

... this still lets area spells affect the area inside of an AMF, provided that the point of origin remains outside of an AMF (which sort of makes sense, given that most area spells have their effects shoot out from the point of origin).


When a (conjuration) spells effect is created entirely externally and then projected into the AMF, there is no debate. The Orb spells definitely fit this criteria as do a few others.

Do instantaneous AoE spells operate in this fashion? In some cases such as Wall of Stone, this seems definitely not. In other cases such as Hail of Stone, I can see room for disagreement. Does the Hail of Stone spell shoot down from the point of origin



When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell’s point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder.


... or do the spells effects?



You create a rain of stones...


In the earlier debate Dextercorvia mentioned, the conclusion was that HoS did not penetrate an AMF. This seems like the conservative ruling, but there is some room for debate if you believe the spell description creates an exception to the general meaning of a cylinder.



it is not a restatement of the Conjuration (Creation) rule, because it has a broader scope.


You are correct that it does have a broader scope. Applied more broadly, this says Planar Ally creatures can enter an AMF.

But, it's still just a clarification. Grammatically, things in parenthesis are always supposed to be removable without changing meaning, so everything between the '(' and the ')' do not change the rules.

[Anthrowhale]

Anthrowhale! Good to see you. Just the other day I was searching for something else, and ran across our conversation about your LeShay Slayer. This very discussion about what is and is not possible in the AMF came up there.

That is where I remember it from :-) Fun times. For others, it's deep in here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13832819). This is the thread which convinced me that there was no defense against direct damage except immunity.

[Karnith]

When a (conjuration) spells effect is created entirely externally and then projected into the AMF, there is no debate. The Orb spells definitely fit this criteria as do a few others.
Yes, and I have edited my first post in this thread to call out the spells on the list that definitely work when cast into an AMF (the Orbs, obviously, but also Ice Darts, Ice Knife, Icelance, Slime Hurl, and Splinterbolt).

Do instantaneous AoE spells operate in this fashion? In some cases such as Wall of Stone, this seems definitely not.
Quick note: Wall of Stone isn't an area spell, it's an effect spell.

In other cases such as Hail of Stone, I can see room for disagreement. Does the Hail of Stone spell shoot down from the point of origin

... or do the spells effects?

In the earlier debate Dextercorvia mentioned, the conclusion was that HoS did not penetrate an AMF. This seems like the conservative ruling, but there is some room for debate if you believe the spell description creates an exception to the general meaning of a cylinder.
Given that instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spells' create effects that stand on their own without magic, and that area spells shoot the spell from the point of origin, it seems to me more reasonable that they would work so long as the point of origin is outside of the AMF, but given the rules ambiguity in almost all of these terms (and the arbitrary way in which spells are described) it's also pretty clear to me that none of the positions are quite solid enough to say "it definitely works this way by RAW," let alone at most tables.

I'll see if I can better phrase the section on AMFs to encompass a wide array of readings.

[Dorian Gray]

You are correct that it does have a broader scope. Applied more broadly, this says Planar Ally creatures can enter an AMF.

...Planar Ally creatures can enter an AMF. They are physically on the plane. Summon Monster X and Summon Nature's Ally X creatures can't, but creatures that are called, not summoned, can. Similarly, you can't dispel a Planar Bound creature. That's one of the bigger distinctions between calling and summoning.

[toapat]

alot of the problem with countering a caster is that you can either be able to fight them, or you can be virtually immune to what they do.

Near Total blanket immunity is pretty easy:

Earthglide/Xorn Movement + Mindblank + No need to breath lets you avoid the effects of all but 9 spells (add in immunity to sonic and the total number of spells goes down to 4), and no printed method of detection can find you (because earthglide and Xorn Movement pass without trace through rock, so tremorsense cant RAW pick them up). Problem is even if you have Tremorsense through some means you cant exactly do anything vs a caster because your methods of direct offense are blocked and they certainly wont be in melee range.

[Threadnaught]

Blindsight without true seeing will handle this pretty well, if you're truly worried about invisible fog.

Superior Invisibility, it's only counter is True Seeing.


The best way to combat Mage is to take them into a Dead Magic Zone or Antimagic Field, but you'd better hope they're on their own and even then. Mage is basically another term for Caster, a term that includes Cleric, which is capable of Cheater of Mystra shenanigans. Even within a AMF/DMZ

[Anthrowhale]

Planar Ally creatures can enter an AMF.

Right.


... spells on the list that definitely work when cast into an AMF (the Orbs, obviously, but also Ice Darts, Ice Knife, Icelance, Slime Hurl, and Splinterbolt).


The list seems good. I'd suggest adding "Acid Splash" and (lesser) orb of sound from complete arcane to that list. You might also want to mention that epic spells can go through AMFs.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Superior Invisibility, it's only counter is True Seeing.Once we're in 8th-level-spell territory the invisible fog stops being much of an issue anyway. Also, nitpick, there are plenty of things that beat Superior Invisibility... basically all the stuff listed in this thread that beat Darkstalker, plus Steadfast Perception (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/steadfastPerception.htm).