Can a sorcerer AND his familiar make a knowledge roll on the same object?

[Iron Angel]

Title, neither me nor the sorcerer are sure but it feels like essentially giving the sorcerer a free reroll on any skill he wants might be a bit cheaty.

[Jack_Simth]

Title, neither me nor the sorcerer are sure but it feels like essentially giving the sorcerer a free reroll on any skill he wants might be a bit cheaty.

The Familiar is a separate creature with it's own stats, and very often a different modifier on the check than the Sorcerer (or Wizard). It can, so long as it could have tried it in the first place (so knowledge and Spellcraft checks are fine, but Diplomacy checks for a non-speaking familiar would be a problem; a familiar without hands probably can't try the Open Lock check, et cetera).

[Raven777]

Title, neither me nor the sorcerer are sure but it feels like essentially giving the sorcerer a free reroll on any skill he wants might be a bit cheaty.

Nah, it's actually how it works. Familiars are an additional character, like cohorts or animal companions. Obviously, the Familiar need to be able to use that skill in the first place, but since being a Familiar grants them human like intelligence, Knowledge shouldn't be an issue.

[Iron Angel]

Nah, it's actually how it works. Familiars are an additional character, like cohorts or animal companions. Obviously, the Familiar need to be able to use that skill in the first place, but since being a Familiar grants them human like intelligence, Knowledge shouldn't be an issue.

Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.

This is my real issue. He rolls his own skill using his own skill ranks, then has the familiar roll as well, using the same skill ranks. Essentially, he's getting a reroll with a very small penalty, a thing no one else can do, on skills you don't get rerolls on.

[Vhaidara]

Is it really that big of a problem? Knowledge is borked to all hell anyways (DC to know that a dragon is of the dragon type gets higher the bigger the dragon gets). For Wizards, IDing creatures is, imo, one of the iconic jobs they should fulfill. For sorcerers, they only have Arcana on their list, so that's hardly game breaking.

[deuxhero]

This isn't even remotely near the best thing you can do with a familiar. Taking UMD ranks and giving it wands (or an eternal wand if you don't want to casually spit away gold) gives you extra spells in battle.

[jiriku]

Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.

This is my real issue. He rolls his own skill using his own skill ranks, then has the familiar roll as well, using the same skill ranks. Essentially, he's getting a reroll with a very small penalty, a thing no one else can do, on skills you don't get rerolls on.

That's why familiars are good. Note that unless his familiar is a raven, it can't talk to him until he's 5th level, which will make it very difficult for it to share with him what it knows.

[Flickerdart]

Imagine how great it could be if the sorcerer goes to twiddle a switch and his raven knocks him upside the head and says "no you moron, that's the Button of Certain Doom, you were about to kill us all." Priceless.

[AMFV]

Imagine how great it could be if the sorcerer goes to twiddle a switch and his raven knocks him upside the head and says "no you moron, that's the Button of Certain Doom, you were about to kill us all." Priceless.

Additionally without metagaming they can't know which of their knowledge rolls actually succeeded so that means that any time they have different information the Familiar and his Raven would be continually arguing with each other over it.

[Iron Angel]

Additionally without metagaming they can't know which of their knowledge rolls actually succeeded so that means that any time they have different information the Familiar and his Raven would be continually arguing with each other over it.

Ohohohohoho, now THIS I like.

[Dawgmoah]

Additionally without metagaming they can't know which of their knowledge rolls actually succeeded so that means that any time they have different information the Familiar and his Raven would be continually arguing with each other over it.

Like other posters have already said, let the familiar have its roll. But it needs to pass that information to the caster and what if the caster believes he is right and the familiar wrong? Who would know for sure?

AMFV, I like what you did there. Did you say Familiar and his Raven on purpose?

[AMFV]

Like other posters have already said, let the familiar have its roll. But it needs to pass that information to the caster and what if the caster believes he is right and the familiar wrong? Who would know for sure?

AMFV, I like what you did there. Did you say Familiar and his Raven on purpose?

Let's say I did.

[Raven777]

Additionally without metagaming they can't know which of their knowledge rolls actually succeeded so that means that any time they have different information the Familiar and his Raven would be continually arguing with each other over it.

My Faerie Dragon is actually smarter than my Sorcerer...

>.>

<.<

[Thanatosia]

Raw it's diffinately 100% legit as far as I can tell..... but from a non strict adherence to literal rule semantics over common sense perspective, the fact that the familiar has all your skills at equal ranks kinda implies to me that he knows what you know, not just equivilent but different knowledge, so if you don't know it, the familiar probably shouldn't either.... but yeah, the actual rules text it's completely A-ok, so if your DM lets it fly, nothing wrong with that... but I wouldn't fault or be suprised by a DM who disallowed it either.

[BWR]

You could rule it as an Aid Another check. The master considers something and the familiar makes helpful suggestions.

[ahenobarbi]

By RAW yes.

I think it makes sense in-game too: master and familiar share knowledge (skill ranks) but not mental capacity (int) or reasoning process (roll result) so they may come to different conclussions.

[Daishain]

I don't know, at least in this particular case.

Knowledge checks are supposed to basically be the character drawing on pools of information gathered through experience/study. Since in nearly all cases, the familiar gets this "pool of knowledge" from the master, it should be at least close to the same information. Meaning the only way a master could fail the check, but the familiar makes it, is if both know the information, but the former simply failed to call it to mind. Possible, and amusing for roleplay purposes, but perhaps not quite as likely as simply not knowing the information in the first place.

If it were up to me, I would allow it, but would probably tack on a reasonable penalty.

[prufock]

Depending on the DM's opinion on this, it would probably be better to let the familiar aid you for the +2 bonus. Familiars have a low-ish Int score.

[Elderand]

Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.

This is my real issue. He rolls his own skill using his own skill ranks, then has the familiar roll as well, using the same skill ranks. Essentially, he's getting a reroll with a very small penalty, a thing no one else can do, on skills you don't get rerolls on.

Consider this, actual knowledge/training in the skill is represented by skill ranks. Total skill bonus which include (but is not limited to) ability score bonus represent natural talent.

Therefore when a character makes a knowledge skill check for exemple, his rank is how much stuff he knows, his int bonus is how easy it is for him to remember said stuff. Or relate what he knows to what the situation he currently faces.

I therefore propose that a familiar using their master rank means nothing more than the familliar having had their knowledge/training imparted to them by their wizard/sorcerer/other class.

Both the familliar and owner getting a check just mean two independent being using the same knowlegde/training and see who applys it better.

From this we can make a observation about balance as perceived by the developpers. Familliars having the same skills as their masters means that in the dev eyes it didn't matter how many time you tried to do your thing, as long as it was your thing. They wouldn't allow the master to gain a more diverse set of skills by way of their familliar.

Of course that point is contradicted by the fact that spellcaster never do just their own thing but are quite capable to do everyone else's things too.