9 Styles (ToB) and their different functions

[ZhanStrider]

Doing a pretty basic "This is the main idea of this school, as far as game mechanics go" for the 9 styles.

Desert Wind: Desert Wind seems to be less about one-on-one combat, and mostly about damaging as many people as possible. Cone effects, multiple attacks, burst area effects, multi-target attacks. (The one problem is that fire resistance is so common, though there are ways around that with a flexible DM)

Devoted Spirit: Obviously, hugely about the whole "Good Vs Evil, Law Vs Chaos" bit that Wizards is a huge fan of. Also about buffing allies, damage out put, and healing.

Diamond Mind: This one seems to be more set for One-on-One Combat, Strikes to overcome high AC, extra damage, extra attacks, Bonuses to AC and Saves.

Iron Heart:

Setting Sun:

Shadow Hand: Rogue-ish, mostly for (as the book says) killing people who aren't expecting it. Sneak attack abilities, con drain, high damage, paralyzing, avoidance. It's for assassinating people, and getting out of dodge, less than fighting.

Tiger Claw: Tiger Claw is about pure damage output for the most part. Single target mostly, but LOTS of damage dice.

Stone Dragon: Become the meat Shield you never thought you could! Now accepting applications.
White Raven: Buff your alliessss. BUFFF

Thoughts on the ones I left out or edits?

[Vhaidara]

The parenthesis indicates what non-ToB class it best emulates

Desert Wind (scout) is mobility and fire. Not much more to say

Devoted Spirit (paladin) is the Crusader class. Defensive buffs, heals, and smites (damage strikes)

Diamond Mind (None, really) is the mind-over-matter school. replacing all of your saves, and your damage, with Concentration checks.

Iron Heart (Fighter) is the one-on-one school (Stance giving you +2AC vs one opponent, -2 against all others)

Setting Sun (Monk) is the Martial Arts school. Grapples, counters, throws, it is actually IRL martial arts pumped up to DnD standards.

Shadow Hand (Rogue) you pretty much have right. Stealth, assassination, striking where your opponent doesn't expect, some cold damage.

Stone Dragon (Knight) is I WILL NOT MOVE. And breaking things. And breaking people.

Tiger Claw (barbarian) is "I am going to jump up to your and EAT YOUR FREAKING FACE".

White Raven (Marshal/bard) is about making everyone else better at their job. I mean, Song of the White Raven proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[Firechanter]

Going just from memory -- ToB lies directly next to me but I'm not looking, instead trying to name the first things that come to mind from my favourite maneuvers.

Devoted Spirit: _the_ school for Tanking! Self-healing while attacking; Stances that effectively prevent your enemies from attacking your allies.

Diamond Mind: the main show here is, to me, damage multipliers and anti-magic counters, topped off with some Swift Action Movement.

Iron Heart: Good counters. A bit of Self-healing. Strikes that allow you to hit multiple opponents.

Shadow Hand: you forget the best bit -- (potentially) unlimited tactical teleportation as an Ex ability (and even without prereqs).

Tiger Claw: in addition to extra attacks / damage, also some status effects. Highly offensive style, no counters.

White Raven: Buffing your allies, granting them extra actions, but also some status effects.

[MeeposFire]

The parenthesis indicates what non-ToB class it best emulates

Desert Wind (scout) is mobility and fire. Not much more to say

Devoted Spirit (paladin) is the Crusader class. Defensive buffs, heals, and smites (damage strikes)

Diamond Mind (None, really) is the mind-over-matter school. replacing all of your saves, and your damage, with Concentration checks.

Iron Heart (Fighter) is the one-on-one school (Stance giving you +2AC vs one opponent, -2 against all others)

Setting Sun (Monk) is the Martial Arts school. Grapples, counters, throws, it is actually IRL martial arts pumped up to DnD standards.

Shadow Hand (Rogue) you pretty much have right. Stealth, assassination, striking where your opponent doesn't expect, some cold damage.

Stone Dragon (Knight) is I WILL NOT MOVE. And breaking things. And breaking people.

Tiger Claw (barbarian) is "I am going to jump up to your and EAT YOUR FREAKING FACE".

White Raven (Marshal/bard) is about making everyone else better at their job. I mean, Song of the White Raven proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Iron Heart actually has a number of maneuvers devoted to attacking groups so 1 v 1 does not adequately describe it IMO. Think the hurricane powers that let you hit multiple enemies one or more times. It is a flexible style as it has save boosters, removes status effects, heals, disarms, adds mobility, single target strikes, multiple target strikes, decreases damage, deflects attacks and even boosts your overall damage.

Thematically it is the style of the weapon master but mechanically it seems to be about doing a lot of different things.

[Vhaidara]

I guess, but IIRC, that's 3 maneuvers from the discipline (Steel Wind, Mithral Tornado, Adamantine Hurricane). And it's more one-on-one than Diamond Mind.

And it turns out the stance I was thinking of actually is a Diamond Mind stance, not an Iron Heart stance.

[jiriku]

Diamond Mind (None, really) is the mind-over-matter school. replacing all of your saves, and your damage, with Concentration checks.

Samurai. Diamond Mind is what the CW Samurai always wanted to be when it grew up (only it started hanging out with the wrong crowd, got into drugs, and wound up working at Safeway for the rest of its life).

[Vhaidara]

No, it tried to get a job at Safeway, but they hired its older brother, the OA Samurai. CW Samurai can't even get a basic job.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Setting Sun is definitely has some Aikido-esque stuff to it; counters and throws. Much better for a tactical fighter. (Rather than run up to a guy and attack him for damage, you run up to him, then put him flat on his back in the middle of your party's melee group so he has to eat attacks at -4 AC then eat AoOs in order to get up again.)

[Red Fel]

Desert Wind: The energetic one. Once upon a time, he got cake and ice cream on his birthday. He really, really liked that. Now he still enjoys cake and ice cream. He also enjoys coffee, caffeine pills, Red Bull, speed... Pretty much anything he can get his hands on. The family keeps him away from matches after what happened to Aunt Agnes.

Devoted Spirit: The momma's boy. He wants to show mommy that he's good at everything. "Look, mommy, I can heal!" "Look, mommy, I can tank!" "Look, mommy, I broke that man's spleen!" The most annoying thing is that he's right.

Diamond Mind: The quiet one. He just sits there, reading. I mean, have you ever seen him move? He just sits there... And then you look away, and he moved. When he speaks, it's very brief, very to the point, and generally shuts everybody up. And then he goes back to reading again...

Iron Heart: The otaku. He watched too much anime. That's basically his life. It would be sad, if it weren't for the fact that he's also a black belt in seven different forms of martial arts. Which would be awesome, if he didn't announce it in all caps. All the time. Even in his sleep.

Setting Sun: The family disappointment. He throws fits all the time when he doesn't get his way, and throws things when he throws fits. Unfortunately, he's never lived up to anybody's expectations, including his own, so he throws a lot of fits.

Shadow Hand: He just got out of his seventh stint in prison. He boasts that they couldn't find any evidence. Or any witnesses. Or the bodies of the witnesses. And that the prosecutor had a sudden unexplained heart attack in court. As did the judge. And the jury foreman. The family doesn't talk about him.

Stone Dragon: The other family disappointment. Whereas Setting Sun throws loud, angry fits and tosses things, Stone Dragon just sits there, with his arms crossed, and refuses to move. If we try to move him by force, he starts crying that we ruin everything. Then he kicks a hole in the wall and runs to his room.

Tiger Claw: The family pet. We thought about getting him fixed. He had other ideas. Some days, dad could swear he feels that hand again.

White Raven: The family cheerleader. Whereas Devoted Spirit is all about pleasing mommy, White Raven is all about pleasing everybody. He gives motivational talks. We all have to sit and listen, because he's arguably the only well-adjusted member of this family. Sometimes he sings. Help us.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

>_> Am I the only one that thinks Setting Sun is one of the best? It's got a lot of my favorite strikes, a few good stances and counters, and one of the best capstones. I love the throws - put the enemy in a vulnerable position, where you and the rest of the party can whail on him tat your leisure. Desert Wind always struck me as being the under-performer amont the disciplines.

[ZhanStrider]

>_> Am I the only one that thinks Setting Sun is one of the best? It's got a lot of my favorite strikes, a few good stances and counters, and one of the best capstones. I love the throws - put the enemy in a vulnerable position, where you and the rest of the party can whail on him tat your leisure. Desert Wind always struck me as being the under-performer amont the disciplines.

I feel like desert wind is the under performer only because of fire resistance (except for you know, like Hatchling's flame and such. Wyrm's flame would be okay if it wasn't for fire immunity). Cone effects are GREAT if you can effect people with them.

So far in my current campaign, it IS Setting Sun that is keeping us alive. Running from a Level 6 Paladin of slaughter at Lvl 1, Mighty Throw got us the advantage we needed-Twice. I think it's great.

[Vhaidara]

The failing of Setting Sun, I feel, is that it's attached to Swordsage, which lacks the BAB to make full use of it. It definitely isn't the best (WRT, IHS, Time Stands Still), but it is probably my favorite, if for no reason other than Tornado Throw.

Tornado Throw doesn't specify land speed movement. So one of my friends has a half-dragon Swordsage. Once he gets it, he will be flying, under the effects of Haste (we have a dedicated buff caster) at 110ft. He will fly into someone, trip them, and throw them up. Then fly up, trip them again, throw them up, and keep chaining it for his entire movement. So he juggles someone up 100ft, then lets them fall.

[ZhanStrider]

The failing of Setting Sun, I feel, is that it's attached to Swordsage, which lacks the BAB to make full use of it. It definitely isn't the best (WRT, IHS, Time Stands Still), but it is probably my favorite, if for no reason other than Tornado Throw.

Tornado Throw doesn't specify land speed movement. So one of my friends has a half-dragon Swordsage. Once he gets it, he will be flying, under the effects of Haste (we have a dedicated buff caster) at 110ft. He will fly into someone, trip them, and throw them up. Then fly up, trip them again, throw them up, and keep chaining it for his entire movement. So he juggles someone up 100ft, then lets them fall.

That's....that's fantastic. I should look into fantastic loopholes like that for other things,

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I feel like desert wind is the under performer only because of fire resistance (except for you know, like Hatchling's flame and such. Wyrm's flame would be okay if it wasn't for fire immunity). Cone effects are GREAT if you can effect people with them.

I wonder if there's a fair way to offer energy substitution, either on a case-by-case basis or as a single character choice. Maybe something along the lines of the psionic stuffs?

Fire - standard
Cold - Standard, but trade any reflex saves for fortitude saves
Electric - Mildly reduced damage (-1 per die, or -2 per maneuver level if it's flat damage), but increased save DCs whenever such exist?
Sonic - Signficantly reduced damage (-2 per die, or -4 per maneuver level)

Or something?

[ZhanStrider]

I wonder if there's a fair way to offer energy substitution, either on a case-by-case basis or as a single character choice. Maybe something along the lines of the psionic stuffs?

Fire - standard
Cold - Standard, but trade any reflex saves for fortitude saves
Electric - Mildly reduced damage (-1 per die, or -2 per maneuver level if it's flat damage), but increased save DCs whenever such exist?
Sonic - Signficantly reduced damage (-2 per die, or -4 per maneuver level)

Or something?

Why would Electric and Sonic be reduced damage?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

The failing of Setting Sun, I feel, is that it's attached to Swordsage, which lacks the BAB to make full use of it. It definitely isn't the best (WRT, IHS, Time Stands Still), but it is probably my favorite, if for no reason other than Tornado Throw.

Tornado Throw doesn't specify land speed movement. So one of my friends has a half-dragon Swordsage. Once he gets it, he will be flying, under the effects of Haste (we have a dedicated buff caster) at 110ft. He will fly into someone, trip them, and throw them up. Then fly up, trip them again, throw them up, and keep chaining it for his entire movement. So he juggles someone up 100ft, then lets them fall.

See, it seems like the fact that throws are keyed off of touch attacks, rather than regular attacks, makes up for the lack of BAB.

Also, Time Stands Still never seemed all that neat to me - if it were two full-round actions, sure, but just two full attacks seemed limited. I mean, I think you can get about that many throw-based attacks out of Tornado Throw.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Why would Electric and Sonic be reduced damage?

Because fewer things resist them; if you look at the psionic powers, they generally do more damage for fire or frost based, but less for sonic.

[squiggit]

Why would Electric and Sonic be reduced damage?
I know mind's eye's alternate pyrokineticists recommends -1 damage per die for cold, electricity and acid, with sonic instead getting reduced die size (so 1d6 fire, 1d6-1 electricity/cold/acid or 1d4 sonic) with the added change of cold subbing fort instead of reflex and sonic ignoring hardness. So it might be referring to that.

[Vhaidara]

I would rather have the fire and cold options do +1 per die. Damage is already sub-par vs applying debuffs. No need to hurt the damage.

[Adverb]

Yeah, Mighty Throw is great at level 1. The neat thing about trip checks is that they don't change much as you level, so an optimized ECL 1 tripper can still have an effect on melee monsters way over their weight class. If you're fighting "traditional" monsters that get bigger and stronger, tripping loses oomph over your career, but Setting Sun has other tricks up its sleeve, too.

Iron Heart is all about discipline and weapon mastery and such. Otaku indeed.

[ZhanStrider]

I would rather have the fire and cold options do +1 per die. Damage is already sub-par vs applying debuffs. No need to hurt the damage.

My DM is just running it as the same damage but I can pick which one I use when I initiate the maneuver. The Caveat is I can only have Cold, Electric, OR Acid, and that I have to find the NPC who can teach the skill.

[Vhaidara]

Oh, and Red Fel, I agree with most of your assessments, except for Iron Heart being the otaku. That's Diamond Mind. Have you read the names of those maneuvers? We all know he's reading manga, too.

Iron Heart is the guy who works at Renaissance Festivals, and then lives in mom's basement the rest of the year.

[MeeposFire]

Diamond mind is also often linked to fencing.

[facelessminion]

Iron Heart is the "I'm what fighters should have gotten from the beginning" style.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Iron Heart is the "I'm what fighters should have gotten from the beginning" style.

One of the big reasons why it weirds me out that ToB is the one book DMs seem most likely to ban. Everyone complains about melee not getting nice things; ToB gives melee nice things, and everyone gets mad at it.

[Vhaidara]

It's because they hear about things like IHS and WRT.

Also, in low optimization groups, it does seem really OP. I'm talking where blaster sorcerers roam freely and a dex based defensive fighter is a good build (aka, my first group)

[MeeposFire]

One of the big reasons why it weirds me out that ToB is the one book DMs seem most likely to ban. Everyone complains about melee not getting nice things; ToB gives melee nice things, and everyone gets mad at it.

The biggest issue is with the format. The 9th level mechanics are familiar to D&D players so they are sueful but they also automatically make you think spells and with the catchy names we ahve a situation where many people see it and think "this is not a warrior but a caster". If you study it you know that isn't true (except for a limited number of swordsage maneuvers) but that can make too many people turn away.

[The Insaniac]

So, as a soup joke:

The Desert Wind dervish thinks the soup is too cold so he sets the bowl on fire and proceeds to dance around the room drinking his flaming soup and taking spoonfuls of everyone else's too.

The Devoted Spirit crusader burns his tongue, declares his soup to be an abomination against the gods and smites it so hard that his tongue heals.

The Diamond Mind master studies his soup intently then moves with blinding speed to drink the soup in one spoonful.

The Iron Heart warblade tries to eat his soup with a sword. Somehow, it works.

The master of the Setting Sun moves around his soup in a complex pattern to throw it off balance, then throws the bowl into the air and drinks the soup as it falls.

The Shadow Hand swordsage drinks someone else's soup without anyone noticing.

The master of the Stone Dragon glares at his soup, unmoving, unflinching, unimpressed by how spicy it is. Then he hits it so hard that the soup vaporizes.

The Tiger Claw master eats his chunky stew... and the bowl... and the table... and everyone else at the table.

The White Raven warlord inspires everyone else to gloriously drink his soup.

[Vhaidara]

Iron Heart didn't actually drink its soup. Shadow Hand drank it.