Tips for a Low-Level Fighter (Defender)

[Kharannos]

Hello everyone !

My friends and I are going to start a new 4e Game next weekend. I was going to roll a Wizard, but the group is a Striker (Avenger) and a Druid (Controller). Another Controller would be a waste. So I decided to go back to an old passion: I decided i should roll a Fighter. And a Human one (All my characters are human. No exceptions =x)

I am and always was a Fighter fanboy.
Even in 3.5 i was "stupid" enough to roll a lv 9 Fighter (my highest level character, since all campaigns I played were low-level and low-magic).

And now Fighter is actually GOOD! He's not the old boring "I attack" class. He actually have a lot powers to change the battlefield, move enemies and allies, keep the enemies locked and that kind of stuff.

Ok, I'm pumped up, but something is not right: He seems awesome agains ONE target, where I can use his Marks, but what about multiple targets?
I can Cleave, and thus, apply the mark in more than one enemy per attack. But that is all.
I can use an Immediate Interrupt to stop an enemy passing through me, but I've read those Immediate Interrupts can be used ONCE PER ROUND, not ONCE PER TURN.

Ok, I'm facing 5 enemies. I attack one and Mark him. He's grounded. the second one goes through me. I attack him and "interrupt" his move.
What about the other three?
They are free to move as the see fit in the battlefield and target my Druid?

I know someone will say: You are not alone! Stop thinking your Defender will lock a whole pack of monsters...

I'm not one of those power players that take optimization to the highest levels (Heck, I had a Level 9 Character and made him pure Fighter ! AND I HAD A HIGH CHARISMA!), but I want to be the best Fighter my team can have. I want to be reliable.

Any tips on how to choose and use my Fighter powers and Feat selection?
Thanks in advance!

[RubyApple]

First and foremost: What resources do you have available?
Also, what is your starting level?

[GPuzzle]

Cleave doesn't multimark - you need Impending Doom Style for that.

Now, what sources do you have acess to? It's important. As in, very. I can recommend a build to you, but it'd be in a vacuum and you'd need to learn a lot of stuff to know how he works.

[Kharannos]

Only the Core books. PHB I, PHB II and Martial Power. =)

As I said, I'm not trying to build a powerhouse, just a good reliable Defender for a short-sized party.

[Dimers]

I can use an Immediate Interrupt to stop an enemy passing through me, but I've read those Immediate Interrupts can be used ONCE PER ROUND, not ONCE PER TURN.

Ok, I'm facing 5 enemies. I attack one and Mark him. He's grounded. the second one goes through me. I attack him and "interrupt" his move.
What about the other three?
They are free to move as the see fit in the battlefield and target my Druid?

I know someone will say: You are not alone! Stop thinking your Defender will lock a whole pack of monsters... but I want to be the best Fighter my team can have. I want to be reliable.

Yeah, I was in fact going to say "don't try to lock down the whole encounter, and here are lots of reasons why". :smallsmile: For reliable, just start with Strength at 18 or higher, pick accuracy-boosting feats like Expertise, and make sure you use a weapon with a +3 proficiency bonus instead of +2. That's as good as it gets. Boosting your damage or making some small subset of attacks better or getting stronger personal defense is nice, but accuracy is all you really need.

As for the interrupts -- you only get one interrupt per round from Combat Challenge, where you punish someone for trying to shift or attack somebody other than yourself. But you have one opportunity attack per creature's turn, so you can try to hit multiple enemies if they all walk past you without shifting (or if they use ranged attacks). One immediate action (immediate interrupt or immediate reaction) per round, one opportunity action per turn, and you can even use both if both are triggered.

Unless you have a really crazy-OP build, some baddies will get past you unscathed. That's fine. The druid can take it -- she's got armor and hit points and surges herself, no big deal.

[GPuzzle]

Ultimately, a Fighter defends by threat. Enemy shifts? No, because I get an attack that can be upgraded to the heavens (it's possible to daze with it. Seriously.), and might even get a second attack. Enemy attacks me? Too bad, it probably won't go through the defenses or the THP if you build it correctly.

Try to get access to D&D Insider. It's got a majority of the sources.

Oh, and a very good basic combo is Shield Push (PHB)+Mobile Challenge (Dragon Magazine). You still follow the guy around if he shifts. It's nice.

[Kharannos]

Yeah, I was in fact going to say "don't try to lock down the whole encounter, and here are lots of reasons why". :smallsmile: For reliable, just start with Strength at 18 or higher, pick accuracy-boosting feats like Expertise, and make sure you use a weapon with a +3 proficiency bonus instead of +2. That's as good as it gets. Boosting your damage or making some small subset of attacks better or getting stronger personal defense is nice, but accuracy is all you really need.

As for the interrupts -- you only get one interrupt per round from Combat Challenge, where you punish someone for trying to shift or attack somebody other than yourself. But you have one opportunity attack per creature's turn, so you can try to hit multiple enemies if they all walk past you without shifting (or if they use ranged attacks). One immediate action (immediate interrupt or immediate reaction) per round, one opportunity action per turn, and you can even use both if both are triggered.

Unless you have a really crazy-OP build, some baddies will get past you unscathed. That's fine. The druid can take it -- she's got armor and hit points and surges herself, no big deal.

Thanks a lot! Now that I know I CAN punish once per turn, not because of Combat Challenge, but because of the standart Attack of Opportunity, things are WAY better!

And no, I can't use any extra content... YET.
It's our first time playing D&D 4e, We'll stick with the core books for a while, to understand more about it.

Another simple questions:

Since I'm a defender, I'm focusing on taking the damage. Therefore, my main stat is Constitution, followed by Strengh.

I'm going to use a Plate Armor, so my Dex can't be used to Armor Class. But I'm using a Heavy Blade (Longsword) and It is based on Dexterity.
Do you think It's worth taking something like 12 Dex just to get the Initiative bonus, the skills bonus and the Heavy Blade bonus? Or It's going to be useless?
I can dump Dex... maybe.

What you guys think?

Also, a Human Fighter level 1 gets 2 talents. With the Human Feat I'll get Action Surge, probably.
With the Fighter feat, I'm not sure.
I can get Improved Initiative, to make Sure I'll be better positioned first in the start of a combat. Weapon Proficiency or Focus, I'm not sure a Fighter get those feats for free or not. Shield Push can be good since I'm a Sword and Shield user and I'll be marking people up a lot (and moving them).

Anyone can help me out? =)

Thanks again !

[Zaq]

In 4e, your attack stat needs to be your highest stat. Always.

You will have more than enough HP and surges with CON being your second-highest or even your third-highest stat. (I prefer WIS-secondary Fighters, personally—they get more oomph, and the fact that your Will doesn't suck is a bonus.) Your class gives you a lot of surges anyway (and enough HP that those surges matter). Also, remember that your job is not to take all the damage for the party. Your job is to corral the opposing team into having no good options and make their turns have less value. But you can't take all the hits for the party, nor should you. Your teammates have their own HP and surges for a reason—yes, even the squishy Wizard (who isn't that squishy in 4e, but whatever). You'll take more hits than average, but not all of them.

Your STR should be at least 18 after your racial bonus, and you should boost it every chance you get, no exceptions. This holds true no matter what class you're playing; your attack stat should start at (at a minimum) 18 post-racial, and should be bumped at every opportunity.

[Laserlight]

Since I'm a defender, I'm focusing on taking the damage....

As a fighter, your job is to tell the foe "you can try to hit me, with my massive armor class and high hitpoints...or you can try to hit my buddy beside me, in which case I'll clobber you. Sucks to be you."
Importantly, your job is not "take all the damage". If you do, you probably get two heals from your Leader and another for your Second Wind, and then you're in trouble; if the rest of the party takes some hits as well, then they get to use their Second Winds for their heals. And assuming a level-appropriate fight, no one is going to die from a single hit.
Further, if you take all the damage, then by the end of the second or third fight, everyone else is in good shape but you have no healing surges left. Better to use the HP total for the whole party, not just your one character.


I can get Improved Initiative, to make Sure I'll be better positioned first in the start of a combat. Weapon Proficiency or Focus, I'm not sure a Fighter get those feats for free or not. Shield Push can be good since I'm a Sword and Shield user and I'll be marking people up a lot (and moving them).


I wouldn't bother with Initiative just yet; assuming your party has a rational marching order, you will already be in front when the fight kicks off. I'd start with a Proficiency for a superior weapon, or an Expertise for your weapon group.

[NecroRebel]

Since I'm a defender, I'm focusing on taking the damage. Therefore, my main stat is Constitution, followed by Strengh.

As others have said, your main stat should be Strength. Con doesn't matter nearly as much for survivability in 4e as it did in previous editions. In fact, you can get by with Con as your dump stat and still be reasonably survivable. As a fighter, your ability to defend others depends on your ability to hit with attacks, so you should put top priority on boosting the accuracy of your attacks.


I'm going to use a Plate Armor, so my Dex can't be used to Armor Class. But I'm using a Heavy Blade (Longsword) and It is based on Dexterity.

Note that fighters are not proficient in plate armor by default, so you'll need to spend a feat on that. It probably isn't worthwhile, either, since plate proficiency gives only +1 AC over scale (which you don't need a feat for) and requires 15 Con (which isn't really worth it for a swordsman).


Do you think It's worth taking something like 12 Dex just to get the Initiative bonus, the skills bonus and the Heavy Blade bonus? Or It's going to be useless?
I can dump Dex... maybe.

That depends on whether you think the game will get to paragon tier or not, and whether you think it will get to epic tier or not. The paragon-tier feat Heavy Blade Opportunity is amazing, to the extent where in the sources you're playing with it's a major reason to choose heavy blades over other weapon types. It requires 15 Dex, though, so if you think you'll go to paragon, starting with 14 Dex is a very good idea. If you're going to epic, taking 15 Dex so you can take Heavy Blade Mastery is a good idea, too, though not a critical one.

[MeeposFire]

I like wisdom secondary and dex high enough to get certain feat for my fighters. For a classic fighter going sword and board with tide of iron, heavy balde opportunity, and other feats can allow you to sue tide of iron on your opportunity attacks and combat challenge. With that you can stop their movement and push them away or push them away before thier attacks hit which may prevent the attack all together.

[GPuzzle]

Wisdom Secondary is pretty good. Second, every +1 to hit counts. Yes, every +1 to hit. That's because of 4e's treadmill - monster stats are defined by level and your to-hit nominally scales by half a level+a growth of +5 to hit via stat bonuses across the levels+a growth of +6 due to enchantments. In the end, if you don't pay even a bit of service to things like Weapon Expertise and CA, you will fail. I mean, a Fighter making an MBA with a Trident with 18 Strength at level 1 has a +7 vs AC, which is level+14, that hits on an 8. Without minimal focus, you end up with +33 vs AC, at level 30, which is level+14, making it so you need an 11 to hit. With a good deal of focus (Kensei PP, Impaling Spear, Spear Expertise and CA), you get +39 vs Reflex, which is level+12, making it so you need a 3 to hit.

Yes, 4e's mentality is "hit often and hit several times".

[Kharannos]

When you all say "Heavy Blade Expertise", Is it the Weapon Focus, choosing Heavy Blade as the weapon group?
Because it gives +1 to attack rolls with the aelected weapon group. Or is it another Feat?
Weapon Focus is described in PHB1.

I'll go with Action Surge and Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade), I guess, to maximize Threat.

But if this Expertise is better, I'll change.
Also, I'll choose 13 Dex for Heavy Blade Opportunity and some extra powers.
We are doing "point buy", but with more paints than usual.
I'll roll something like 18 str, 13 dex and 14 con, spend the last points in wis and dump charisma and inteligence.
Thanks again!

[Inevitability]

When you all say "Heavy Blade Expertise", Is it the Weapon Focus, choosing Heavy Blade as the weapon group?
Because it gives +1 to attack rolls with the aelected weapon group. Or is it another Feat?
Weapon Focus is described in PHB1.

I'll go with Action Surge and Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade), I guess, to maximize Threat.

But if this Expertise is better, I'll change.
Also, I'll choose 13 Dex for Heavy Blade Opportunity and some extra powers.
We are doing "point buy", but with more paints than usual.
I'll roll something like 18 str, 13 dex and 14 con, spend the last points in wis and dump charisma and inteligence.
Thanks again!

Heavy Blade Expertise is a feat from Heroes of the Fallen Lands.
Also, Weapon Focus doesn't improve your attack rolls, it improves your damage rolls.

And yes, expertise is better.

[Laserlight]

When you all say "Heavy Blade Expertise", Is it the Weapon Focus, choosing Heavy Blade as the weapon group?
Because it gives +1 to attack rolls with the aelected weapon group. Or is it another Feat?

No, it's Heavy Blade Expertise. Heroes of the Fallen, I think. +1/tier to all attacks made using a Heavy Blade, and +2 to all defenses vs enemy Opportunity Attacks.

I believe you can look this up on the DDI Compendium without a subscription.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When you all say "Heavy Blade Expertise", Is it the Weapon Focus, choosing Heavy Blade as the weapon group?

No, it's a feat that you don't have access to in the book list you gave (PHB I, PHB II and Martial Power). There is a lesser version in PHB2 that gives you +1 to hit per tier (i.e. +1 to Hit right now, +2 at level 11, +3 at level 21). Get that one for now, and when your DM starts allowing the Heroes of... books, if ever, switch to the one they recommend (which does the same thing per weapon type, and throws in something else related to the weapon).

Grey Wolf

[MeeposFire]

When you all say "Heavy Blade Expertise", Is it the Weapon Focus, choosing Heavy Blade as the weapon group?
Because it gives +1 to attack rolls with the aelected weapon group. Or is it another Feat?
Weapon Focus is described in PHB1.

I'll go with Action Surge and Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade), I guess, to maximize Threat.

But if this Expertise is better, I'll change.
Also, I'll choose 13 Dex for Heavy Blade Opportunity and some extra powers.
We are doing "point buy", but with more paints than usual.
I'll roll something like 18 str, 13 dex and 14 con, spend the last points in wis and dump charisma and inteligence.
Thanks again!

Sorry brain fart I meant heavy blade opportunity and shield push.

[Kharannos]

Ok, I've checked this Heavy Blade Expertise.
Sounds awesome, thanks for the advice !

Problem is: Maybe I'm used to 3.5 fighter, but sounds like I don't have any feat AT ALL!
Shield Push is nice. Should I get it level 3?

But starting the game, I'll use Heavy Blade Expertise and Action Surge (Human Feat).

Don't know the next Feats, though...

You all have been really helpful. Now I understand better the way Fighters are played in this edition!

[GPuzzle]

Feats come at levels 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 21, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30 in this edition, not 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27, 30.

Shield Push is awesome, but gets more awesome when paired with Mobile Challenge. Try to see if you can get it, because now enemies cannot shift+charge your allies.

[MeeposFire]

Yea and if you can get things that can enhance push you can make it even better because then you can boost how far you punt the enemy. Enemies will not ignore you when they find out you can effectively prevent any melee attack.

[GPuzzle]

And that's when you start boosting your durability. So your enemies have two bad choices - attack you and miss, attack your allies and have the attack not connect.

[Kharannos]

Thank you all!

Now I understand way better the Fighter mechanics and the character sheet is ready !

Just another low-level question:
Do you think Action Surge feat is any good? +3 attack is really good, but we onlys pend Action points once per extended rest.
The bonus is really good, but since It's barely used, sounds like a waste, to me.
Since I've just discovered the Human Feat don't need to be a Human-Exclusive feat, I was considering in "antecipating" Shield Push to level 1.
At least I'll be using it often.

But this is it. The character is really great at this point, and It is thanks to you guys !
Also, It's nice to understand better the Mechanics. Core books should get a page or two explaining HOW TO PLAY your class, not only the rules :smallsmile:

[Inevitability]

Thank you all!

Now I understand way better the Fighter mechanics and the character sheet is ready !

Just another low-level question:
Do you think Action Surge feat is any good? +3 attack is really good, but we onlys pend Action points once per extended rest.
The bonus is really good, but since It's barely used, sounds like a waste, to me.
Since I've just discovered the Human Feat don't need to be a Human-Exclusive feat, I was considering in "antecipating" Shield Push to level 1.
At least I'll be using it often.

Action surge? I wouldn't pick it, especially if you only spend action points 1/day. Situational bonuses are just almost always inferior to permanent ones.

[Dimers]

Also, It's nice to understand better the Mechanics. Core books should get a page or two explaining HOW TO PLAY your class, not only the rules :smallsmile:

Definitely a good idea! I'd really like to see a handbook -- maybe a twenty or thirty page PDF or something -- a couple years after a game comes out, explaining the metagame. In 4e, we've found over time that accuracy and getting attacks frequently are the two important factors in dealing lots of damage, not large numbers of [W]s or damage dice. Vulnerability exploitation is a not-so-distant third -- or you could explore vulnerability as one of the stronger ways to boost static damage bonuses. The handbook's writer could explain this in a way that says tells the reader WHY they're doing less damage than the party's frostcheese ranger, without saying "This is the only right way to play."

A handbook could explore party tactics, clarifying (e.g.) useful things the different defender classes could do to keep the party's chargebarian from getting slaughtered, or the best powers for each class for fending off minion hordes and how that's different from fighting an elite/solo. It could talk about how you can specialize or generalize using different feats. The 4e handbook would describe how the character concept process needs to start from "What do you want to be able to accomplish?" rather than "What class do you want to play?" So many useful things to say, for both individual classes and for groups.

A guide to D&D 3.X would explain why spellcasting from flexible, broad lists is more effective than any amount of face-beating or mundane skill, and how to play stronger classes in ways that don't overshadow weaker ones. The guide for Vampire: The Masquerade would talk about Celerity in terms of combat, but also how to use Auspex and Obfuscation, and which powers rely the most on Storyteller interpretation.

I feel like that kind of handbook wouldn't SELL well for the company, but would improve player satisfaction so that people want to keep playing the game and buying new books. And it could be crowdsourced to a pretty large degree. It'd only take a couple months of worktime for one smart editor to distill thousands of people's advice into a good metagame document.

[dariathalon]

I have to preface this by saying I've never actually looked at more than just the cover of this book, but the impression I got was that it covers what you're describing. I have no idea if it actually does cover what you'd want to know, nor if its advice is any good, but it is out there.

D&D Player's Strategy Guide (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/253820000)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

we only spend Action points once per extended rest.

This should not be happening. You should be going through four-five encounters per "day", in which case you get three APs. In general, you should be using an AP every other combat. If you are only getting through one/two combats between extended rests, you must be having a very easy time - some classes literally cannot run out of HS is two combats. It also kinda defeats the distinction between dailies and encoutner powers, if you pretty much can use your dailies in every encounter, since you will get them back immediately.

Grey Wolf

[Kharannos]

Thank you all very much !

The character is done and I think this is "close-to" the best Defender my party can have on level 1.
Not with an "optimized" look on it, but with looking with a roleplaying perspective.

Thank you all!