Is there anything in the game level-for-level stronger than an optimized Archivist?

[AnonymousPepper]

In a purely TO sense, an Archivist with all the stops pulled out theoretically has every divine spell in the game and every Sorc/Wiz spell up to 6 known, can cast spontaneously, has Circle Magic, and can take advantage of DMMPersist shenanigans to grant herself all manner of buffs for the entire day (perhaps the finest example being double-rolls-take-the-better on literally everything - Choose Destiny, Destiny 9).

Is anything stronger?

[AMFV]

In a purely TO sense, an Archivist with all the stops pulled out theoretically has every divine spell in the game and every Sorc/Wiz spell up to 6 known, can cast spontaneously, has Circle Magic, and can take advantage of DMMPersist shenanigans to grant herself all manner of buffs for the entire day (perhaps the finest example being double-rolls-take-the-better on literally everything - Choose Destiny, Destiny 9).

Is anything stronger?

If we're talking TO, then Pun Pun is level for level much stronger than an Optimized Archivist. Furthermore an Archivist can't use DMM persist (no turning) without dipping, and then it's no longer an Optimized Archivist, it's got PrCs and so it's an optimized Archivist/Whatever. Also many of those tricks can be matched by an optimized Cleric or Wizard. And don't even get me started on Spell to Power Erudites. But TO is already a solved problem. Pun Pun is the strongest, level for level.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't know. A Factotum->Chameleon can easily get all divine and arcane spells using sanctum spell abuses, and drop quite a few extra actions. They also get access to every crafting feat ever due to the Chameleon's floating feat, so every obscure item in the game is open.

The weak points is levels 1-2, but after that it really picks up.

[OldTrees1]

Perhaps a Psion that
paid a Spell to Power Erudite to teach him every spell/power
and is using a power point recharge trick


Unlimited casting per day, all spells and powers known, most(all?) levels are persisted.

[Vaz]

Ardent. Metamind doesn't more than 1 CL with Practised Manifester. Ability to pick up the Save Game trick natively in class. Can pick up Material Component-less Teleport Through Time. Garryl's Disconcern. PP Recharge Mechanism. Can pick up Dark Chaos Shuffle natively in class, potentially XP-free.

Edit; AMFV, the Bone Talisman spell allows DMM Persist for an Archivist.

[AMFV]

Ardent. Metamind doesn't more than 1 CL with Practised Manifester. Ability to pick up the Save Game trick natively in class. Can pick up Material Component-less Teleport Through Time. Garryl's Disconcern. PP Recharge Mechanism. Can pick up Dark Chaos Shuffle natively in class, potentially XP-free.

Edit; AMFV, the Bone Talisman spell allows DMM Persist for an Archivist.

Nope, you still need to have turning to qualify for the feat. Or at least that would be my reading. Although I think that initial condition to qualify is a very hotly debated topic.

Edit: And Circle magic is still not part of the chassis in any case. Although since we're in TO again strength is always going to be absurd, I think that we're still loosing out to Pun Pun.

[Shinken]

Artificer is definitely stronger than Archivist.

[TypoNinja]

If we're talking TO, then Pun Pun is level for level much stronger than an Optimized Archivist. Furthermore an Archivist can't use DMM persist (no turning) without dipping, and then it's no longer an Optimized Archivist, it's got PrCs and so it's an optimized Archivist/Whatever. Also many of those tricks can be matched by an optimized Cleric or Wizard. And don't even get me started on Spell to Power Erudites. But TO is already a solved problem. Pun Pun is the strongest, level for level.

Turning can be picked up for a feat if you don't want to dip, at that point piles of nightsticks feed your dmm, furthermore since were going builds that would usually get books thrown at you, persisted spells last 48 hours if we apply extend after persist, so we can Chaos Shuffle in the feat just long enough to get 48 hours of buffs and then shuffle back in whatever feat you actually want on hand is if you feel that feat starved.

[eternal]

my vote goes to druid going into planar shepherd with Dal Quor. :smallbiggrin:

[Silva Stormrage]

Turning can be picked up for a feat if you don't want to dip, at that point piles of nightsticks feed your dmm, furthermore since were going builds that would usually get books thrown at you, persisted spells last 48 hours if we apply extend after persist, so we can Chaos Shuffle in the feat just long enough to get 48 hours of buffs and then shuffle back in whatever feat you actually want on hand is if you feel that feat starved.

What feat grants turn undead? DMM only works with turn undead not other types of turning and I didn't think you could get turn undead with a feat.

[AMFV]

Turning can be picked up for a feat if you don't want to dip, at that point piles of nightsticks feed your dmm, furthermore since were going builds that would usually get books thrown at you, persisted spells last 48 hours if we apply extend after persist, so we can Chaos Shuffle in the feat just long enough to get 48 hours of buffs and then shuffle back in whatever feat you actually want on hand is if you feel that feat starved.

I guess Planar Touchstone counts. But Circle Magic is still not in a standard Archivist build. In any case any archivist build that is not Pun Pun is suboptimal. That's how this works, if you aren't Pun Pun you are suboptimal since you could be more optimal.

[eggynack]

my vote goes to druid going into planar shepherd with Dal Quor. :smallbiggrin:
I'd actually probably side with the straight druid at some level ranges. I don't think the archivist list is all that much better than the wizard list from around 1-11, and the druid can reasonably claim superiority in that range on the back of class features. It seems disingenuous, incidentally, to claim victory for archivists on the back of prestige class stuff. At that point, planar shepherd actually does enter the picture, and it isn't likely to end particularly in the archivists favor until you hit serious cheese range.

[TypoNinja]

What feat grants turn undead? DMM only works with turn undead not other types of turning and I didn't think you could get turn undead with a feat.

You can either go Planar touchstone catalogs of enlightenment for any chosen domain power. You then go Sun domain from DragonLance Campaign setting (Grants turning) or if you don't like cherry picking setting specific material that way God Touched followed by Divine Channeler will grant you turn undead.

[eternal]

I'd actually probably side with the straight druid at some level ranges. I don't think the archivist list is all that much better than the wizard list from around 1-11, and the druid can reasonably claim superiority in that range on the back of class features. It seems disingenuous, incidentally, to claim victory for archivists on the back of prestige class stuff. At that point, planar shepherd actually does enter the picture, and it isn't likely to end particularly in the archivists favor until you hit serious cheese range.


so wait.. your agreeing with me right? or disagreeing with me... I'm confused. :smallconfused:


I'd also say strait cleric as well would keep up or be stronger. Their domains( here's looking at you spell domain) and initiate of mystra give them access to a good range of arcane and then there is the dmm cheese on top of that.

But alas I'm bias to clerics and druids.

[eggynack]

so wait.. your agreeing with me right? or disagreeing with me... I'm confused. :smallconfused:

I'm saying that planar shepherd would likely be stronger, but that druid on its own likely has an edge across a good level range as well.

[eternal]

I'm saying that planar shepherd would likely be stronger, but that druid on its own likely has an edge across a good level range as well.

I thought you were saying as much. It's late and my brain isn't all here. I figured strait druid would be enough, however; if we're talking TO I couldn't resist bringing in planar shepherd. :smallbiggrin:

edit:
I guess the same could be said for aberration wild shape and assume supernatural ability. Put the two together and I'm not sure if there is much that could win against that.

[Silva Stormrage]

You can either go Planar touchstone catalogs of enlightenment for any chosen domain power. You then go Sun domain from DragonLance Campaign setting (Grants turning) or if you don't like cherry picking setting specific material that way God Touched followed by Divine Channeler will grant you turn undead.

Ah didn't know of Sun Domain's change in Dragonlance. Interesting. Thanks for the info.

[jiriku]

I guess Planar Touchstone counts. But Circle Magic is still not in a standard Archivist build. In any case any archivist build that is not Pun Pun is suboptimal. That's how this works, if you aren't Pun Pun you are suboptimal since you could be more optimal.

(A weaker version of) Circle magic is available as a feat for divine spellcasters in Ghostwalk.

[adriana]

Artificer is definitely stronger than Archivist.

This for sure. An Artificer who knows his/her stuff is a beast.

That being said I'm voting for my favorite class: The Necro Cleric.

[Ingus]

Maybe the only think better than an Artificer is a Psionic Artificer - mostly because of Erudite spell to power.

Then you have a normal Artificer plus psionic.
And you can craft items that grant maneuvers as per ToB rules (which normal artificer can do too), so you can have a Arcane/Divine/Psionic caster and initiator.

I once created a psionic artificer 16 that could mimic Sor/Wiz 20 + Cleric 20 + Psion 20 + Psi Warrior 20 + Monk 30 or so (Monks are sadly weak) + Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage (each) 20, Fighter 20 with a contingent (craft contingency, no less) Suppressing Field preventing AMF "fun".
And Vestiges as "animal companions".
And golems.
And zombies.
And insta-charming monsters along the way.
Never had the courage to present it to a real DM though :smalltongue:

[Feint's End]

Perhaps a Psion that
paid a Spell to Power Erudite to teach him every spell/power
and is using a power point recharge trick


Unlimited casting per day, all spells and powers known, most(all?) levels are persisted.

Probably this. All powers known and all wizard spells known up to 8th grade. It's even possible to get most of the cleric list on there if you really try.

Be a telepath and go into thrallherd to get the stp erudite fair and square. If you have to stay single class then just dominate one (unlikely in a game that high op but hey).

In another case? Psionic artificer maybe. If we are talking TO

[kellbyb]

If we're talking TO, then Pun Pun is level for level much stronger than an Optimized Archivist. Furthermore an Archivist can't use DMM persist (no turning) without dipping, and then it's no longer an Optimized Archivist, it's got PrCs and so it's an optimized Archivist/Whatever. Also many of those tricks can be matched by an optimized Cleric or Wizard. And don't even get me started on Spell to Power Erudites. But TO is already a solved problem. Pun Pun is the strongest, level for level.

Seriously, this is it. Whatever you can do, Pun Pun can do better while at level 1.

[AMFV]

Again if we're talking TO any class that isn't going into Pun Pun is weaker, we're in some kind of half-TO/PO place, which is fine, but we should classify under what restrictions we're operating.

[Segev]

You can only benefit from as many nightsticks as you can wield simultaneously. With Giralon's Blessing or other magics to obtain more limbs, you might be able to get a fair number, though. Grell can wield things with each tentacle, so that'd be a good form.

[Bloodgruve]

If we're talking TO, then Pun Pun is level for level much stronger than an Optimized Archivist. Furthermore an Archivist can't use DMM persist (no turning) without dipping, and then it's no longer an Optimized Archivist, it's got PrCs and so it's an optimized Archivist/Whatever. Also many of those tricks can be matched by an optimized Cleric or Wizard. And don't even get me started on Spell to Power Erudites. But TO is already a solved problem. Pun Pun is the strongest, level for level.

Can't use Spell Storing Item (Infusion) + Metamagic Item (Infusion) to apply your Persist? Create a single charge Spell Storing Item with Divine Power, hit it with Metamagic Item (Persist) and trigger it for a 24hr buff for a small xp cost? Concurrent Infusions infusion to bypass the xp cost too.

[AMFV]

Can't use Spell Storing Item (Infusion) + Metamagic Item (Infusion) to apply your Persist? Create a single charge Spell Storing Item with Divine Power, hit it with Metamagic Item (Persist) and trigger it for a 24hr buff for a small xp cost? Concurrent Infusions infusion to bypass the xp cost too.

We're discussing archivists, not Artificers. Also there are several bypasses that have been brought up although at least one of them is setting dependent (Sun Domain)

[Bloodgruve]

We're discussing archivists, not Artificers. Also there are several bypasses that have been brought up although at least one of them is setting dependent (Sun Domain)

lol, I just noticed that what I was thinking and reading were not the same. Head's not on right today..

Blood~

[ArqArturo]

Archivist with Leadership, accompanied by a Warlock/Chamaleon gets access to everything.

[Elderand]

Archivist with Leadership, accompanied by a Warlock/Chamaleon gets access to everything.

Thrallherd does it better

[ArqArturo]

Thrallherd does it better

My idea was based on my first job, really. Where the Chamaleon is just a poor intern, just churning out scrolls and the Archivist comes over the table in the inn and asks the Chamaleon to dig up the most obscure shugenja spells, for reasons.

[toapat]

If we're talking TO, then Pun Pun is level for level much stronger than an Optimized Archivist.

PunPun's level efficiency is atrocious. he has basically the minimum level of optimization per level possible its just that he has optimized his nmber of levels perfectly.


What feat grants turn undead? DMM only works with turn undead not other types of turning and I didn't think you could get turn undead with a feat.

DMM works with all Turning class features.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

In a purely TO sense, an Archivist with all the stops pulled out theoretically has every divine spell in the game and every Sorc/Wiz spell up to 6 known, can cast spontaneously, has Circle Magic, and can take advantage of DMMPersist shenanigans to grant herself all manner of buffs for the entire day (perhaps the finest example being double-rolls-take-the-better on literally everything - Choose Destiny, Destiny 9).

Is anything stronger?

There was a build...

Cleric/Divine Anima Mage/X that was immune to pretty much everything. It gives Pun Pun a run for its money. It was posted on this site a while back, wish I had that build :/

The Wish and The Word are two builds that spank the Archivist. I mean, you did say TO, and 3.0 material is legit in 3.5 if it didn't get a direct update.

[dextercorvia]

You can either go Planar touchstone catalogs of enlightenment for any chosen domain power. You then go Sun domain from DragonLance Campaign setting (Grants turning) or if you don't like cherry picking setting specific material that way God Touched followed by Divine Channeler will grant you turn undead.

Catalogs of Enlightenment doesn't actually work here. The Sun Domain from DLCS is a mystic domain, and CoE specifically allows you to choose Cleric Domains.

To the OP, if we assume the exact same starting time, nothing is stronger than the Versatile Domain Generalist for the first few rounds of a game. PunPun requires a few standard actions to fully ascend.

The VDG overpowers an Archvist for at least the first 15 levels. Sometime after that, they both have 9ths, so the Archivist's versatility gives it the edge.

[OldTrees1]

Again if we're talking TO any class that isn't going into Pun Pun is weaker, we're in some kind of half-TO/PO place, which is fine, but we should classify under what restrictions we're operating.
I would assume (since we are talking) that the obvious answer(Pun Pun) is restricted (otherwise no talking is productive). Likwise since the OP was talking about a class, I think reasonable restrictions would including:
Build must have a dominant class that is advanced for the majority of their levels
Build must not change their dominant class

My answer of a Psion is sure to be a low-ball shot once the TO specialists start throwing down.


DMM works with all Turning class features.

Nope. It only works for Turn Undead, abilities that count as Turn Undead, and abilities that do not count as Turn Undead but still have permission to power [Divine] feats.

Ex: Turn Fire Elemental does not work for DMM but both Destroy Undead and the Incarnum turning do count.


Thanks dextercorvia for bringing up that some domains are Mystic exclusive.

[TypoNinja]

I would assume (since we are talking) that the obvious answer(Pun Pun) is restricted (otherwise no talking is productive). Likwise since the OP was talking about a class, I think reasonable restrictions would including:
Build must have a dominant class that is advanced for the majority of their levels
Build must not change their dominant class

My answer of a Psion is sure to be a low-ball shot once the TO specialists start throwing down.



Nope. It only works for Turn Undead, abilities that count as Turn Undead, and abilities that do not count as Turn Undead but still have permission to power [Divine] feats.

Ex: Turn Fire Elemental does not work for DMM but both Destroy Undead and the Incarnum turning do count.


Thanks dextercorvia for bringing up that some domains are Mystic exclusive.

Ohhh I missed that, I'm a bad person. The heading is "Cleric and Mystic Domains" overlooked the mystic only. Opps.

About DMM and other turning, my group has always interperted that any "turn" style abilties still count, since their phrasing makes it clear its functionally identical to turning with just a different target.


Turn or destroy earth creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster air creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead

All the mechanics are identical, expect for what kind of creature is affected. What's the logic on requiring it to be only undead?

[OldTrees1]

Ohhh I missed that, I'm a bad person. The heading is "Cleric and Mystic Domains" overlooked the mystic only. Opps.

About DMM and other turning, my group has always interperted that any "turn" style abilties still count, since their phrasing makes it clear its functionally identical to turning with just a different target.



All the mechanics are identical, expect for what kind of creature is affected. What's the logic on requiring it to be only undead?

Complete Divine, pg 77

Second, the force that powers a divine feat is the ability to channel positive or negative energy to turn or rebuke undead.

Magic of Incarnum, pg 43

This benefit replaces a standard cleric’s ability to turn or rebuke undead gained at 1st level. An azurin cleric can use this ability in place of turn or rebuke undead to qualify for any divine feat, and can spend daily uses of this feat to power divine feats as if they were daily uses of turn or rebuke undead (though doing so requires a standard action rather than a free action unless the feat states otherwise).

[winter92]

I'm going to second the votes for StP Erudite. It has all the option range available to arcane casters backed by the more generous casting system allotted to psionics. The Psionic Tricks handbook has some terrifying shenanigans without ever stooping to TO. There are a lot of very obviously legal tricks that will shatter the game in ways an Archivist can't hope to: infinite PP is a simple starting point, arbitrary actions/round and save-scums any time you die aren't much harder.

note: I'm ignoring any and all TO options here. Lots aren't good until everything kicks in at once, and even the ones that are aren't exactly playable.

[Darkweave31]

I'm going to go with artificer here. Archivist gets access to every divine spell, so does the artificer plus arcane on top of it. They are always a spell level ahead (make scrolls that require CL of level+2) of prepared casters. So until level 17 they will always have that HUGE advantage. Then at level 17 and beyond they'll still have access to persisted buffs and other metamagic shenanigans. Not to mention the slew of bonus feats they get as well as crafting any magic item they could possibly need (powerful even if we don't get into custom item creation rules).

[Vaz]

I'm going to second the votes for StP Erudite. It has all the option range available to arcane casters backed by the more generous casting system allotted to psionics. The Psionic Tricks handbook has some terrifying shenanigans without ever stooping to TO. There are a lot of very obviously legal tricks that will shatter the game in ways an Archivist can't hope to: infinite PP is a simple starting point, arbitrary actions/round and save-scums any time you die aren't much harder.

note: I'm ignoring any and all TO options here. Lots aren't good until everything kicks in at once, and even the ones that are aren't exactly playable.

For the same reasons that Archivists are strong, Psions are stronger than StP Erudites. StP erudites have some extremely annoying class features.

Artificers are fairly poor without access to time allowing them to craft their stuff.

[AMFV]

For the same reasons that Archivists are strong, Psions are stronger than StP Erudites. StP erudites have some extremely annoying class features.

Artificers are fairly poor without access to time allowing them to craft their stuff.

Again I reiterate, anything that isn't Pun Pun is no longer TO, you've put at least a "No Pun Pun" restriction on it. And probably others. So it's not optimal anymore, and that's fine, but the point is you can't compare different class strengths without having the restrictions on builds out in the open.

[Elderand]

Again I reiterate, anything that isn't Pun Pun is no longer TO, you've put at least a "No Pun Pun" restriction on it. And probably others. So it's not optimal anymore, and that's fine, but the point is you can't compare different class strengths without having the restrictions on builds out in the open.

Theoretical optimisation =/= Most optimal thing ever.

The difference between theoretical optimisation and practical optimisation is one of acceptance.
If pun pun where accepted in a group, pun pun would be practical optimisation for that group.

If a group refuses to let their fighter take weapon focus, weapon focus on a fighter become theoretical optimisation.

[AMFV]

Theoretical optimisation =/= Most optimal thing ever.

The difference between theoretical optimisation and practical optimisation is one of acceptance.
If pun pun where accepted in a group, pun pun would be practical optimisation for that group.

If a group refuses to let their fighter take weapon focus, weapon focus on a fighter become theoretical optimisation.

The problem is that Optimization is the most optimal route with no restrictions anything less than the most optimal thing ever is by definition sub-optimal. Now it's fine to optimize within restrictions, but those should be laid out beforehand, since even in this thread people are operating under restrictions, but not necessarily the same restrictions.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Here you go OP, I just realized I forgot to lino to The Wish and The Word.

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Bu ild)

This should take out of Archivist just fine.

I really hope they remake Savage Species for 5e, it would be a nice return for the book... I just hope it isn't as utterly messed up this time haha.

[dextercorvia]

The difference between theoretical optimisation and practical optimisation is one of acceptance.
If pun pun where accepted in a group, pun pun would be practical optimisation for that group.

If a group refuses to let their fighter take weapon focus, weapon focus on a fighter become theoretical optimisation.

This is an awful definition of TO vs PO. I played the Versatile Domain Generalist in a game once, so it is now Practical Optimization?

[Elderand]

This is an awful definition of TO vs PO. I played the Versatile Domain Generalist in a game once, so it is now Practical Optimization?

Nice of you to ignore roughly half the definition to make your point.

It was accepted in that game, therefore it was PO for that one game. That's it.

[AMFV]

Nice of you to ignore roughly half the definition to make your point.

It was accepted in that game, therefore it was PO for that one game. That's it.

The point is that TO is not "Optimization with only certain restrictions" it's "Optimization WITHOUT restrictions" and optimization is getting the most you can with the least resources. Therefore anything less than the most optimal thing, is not optimized. Pun Pun takes I believe one feat, and some ****ty skills, he's basically no investment as is immediately the most powerful, therefore he is the solution to almost every TO problem. Anything is some of level of diminished or restricted optimization.

[dextercorvia]

Nice of you to ignore roughly half the definition to make your point.

It was accepted in that game, therefore it was PO for that one game. That's it.

Even still, that makes the definition meaningless to us. There is no game here. We need a valid boundary to describe the difference. That boundary should not shift based on who happens to be posting in this thread.

[OldTrees1]

The point is that TO is not "Optimization with only certain restrictions" it's "Optimization WITHOUT restrictions" and optimization is getting the most you can with the least resources. Therefore anything less than the most optimal thing, is not optimized. Pun Pun takes I believe one feat, and some ****ty skills, he's basically no investment as is immediately the most powerful, therefore he is the solution to almost every TO problem. Anything is some of level of diminished or restricted optimization.

Theoretical Optimization is optimization that is meant to be Theoretical instead of Practical(usable in a real game). As a result it is the same as Practical Optimization without the Practical restriction. All optimization requires a goal and limits. Pun Pun is the answer to most TO questions that do not have limits or whose limits do not prohibit Pun Pun. However most of TO thought exercises do have limits that exclude Pun Pun.

Obviously those limits should be spelled out so that everyone is engaged in the same thought exercise.

[AMFV]

Theoretical Optimization is optimization that is meant to be Theoretical instead of Practical(usable in a real game). As a result it is the same as Practical Optimization without the Practical restriction. All optimization requires a goal and limits. Pun Pun is the answer to most TO questions that do not have limits or whose limits do not prohibit Pun Pun. However most of TO thought exercises do have limits that exclude Pun Pun.

Obviously those limits should be spelled out so that everyone is engaged in the same thought exercise.

Yes, that's what I was saying is that restrictions need to be spelled out clearly. I'm fine with optimizing within restrictions. I'm just not sure how one can optimize comparatively with others when those restrictions aren't clear, but are the results of different people's interpretation of common restrictions, which can vary.

[OldTrees1]

Yes, that's what I was saying is that restrictions need to be spelled out clearly. I'm fine with optimizing within restrictions. I'm just not sure how one can optimize comparatively with others when those restrictions aren't clear, but are the results of different people's interpretation of common restrictions, which can vary.

I agree. I mostly replied because your most recent attempt was much less clear than your first attempts.




@Everyone
What restrictions are we using for this thought exercise?

My minimum suggestions:
Each build must have a dominant class that is advanced for the majority of the build (since we were calling them by their classes).
A build cannot change its dominant class (no Wizards that retrained into a Psion for a day).
The majority of the build's power must come from the dominant class (not Manipulate Form).

[Synar]

I would like to nominate Illithid Savant with a generous reading.


Not quite Pun-Pun, but not half bad either (and by not half bad, I mean broken beyond hope).

[kulosle]

I assumed by the post that it was asking whats the best class at every level when you only take that class. As in most TO exercises infinite loops should probably be banned. Because otherwise it's just a question of who can get the most infinites and the answer to that is always pun pun, because he has them all.

So if that is the question you're asking, than i'd have to say that wizard is probably the best. They may have less spell options than everyone else, but there is little that their spells can't do. And there is shenanigans that can be done to get them the important spells they can't normally cast. They can have 9th level spells at level 1 which makes them the best in the beginning for sure.

[Heliomance]

They can have 9th level spells at level 1 which makes them the best in the beginning for sure.

So can a Fighter, if you try hard enough. If you're cheesing hard enough to have 9th level spells at level 1, being a Wizard is moderately irrelevant.

[dextercorvia]

So can a Fighter, if you try hard enough. If you're cheesing hard enough to have 9th level spells at level 1, being a Wizard is moderately irrelevant.

Nah, a fighter can get 9th level spells eventually, but he needs too many free feats to get them at level 1. It's been awhile since I counted, but I think you need 11 feats for 9th level spells, and until you can afford the DCFS, the fighter's feat advantage doesn't help much. Fighter is only a good choice so that later you can DCFS those bonus feats into more casting.