[3.X] Temporary Hit Points.

[Yael]

My gaming group has always said that when you stack more Temporary Hit Points than your HP limit, your character explodes or something... Now, my level 5th sorcerer got the spell: Aspect of the Platinum Dragon, (http://dndtools.eu/spells/dragon-magic--62/aspect-of-the-platinum-dragon--1075/) as a SLA, once per day. Now, my character has 37hp, if I used that spell (under that rulling) my character would blow the hell up because of the +110 THP, would it die anyway? I mean, I checked on the SRD about Temporary Hit Points, and it says nothing about blowing your character sheet if your THP stack over your max HP total.


Temporary Hit Points
Certain effects give a character temporary hit points. When a character gains temporary hit points, note his current hit point total. When the temporary hit points go away the character’s hit points drop to his current hit point total. If the character’s hit points are below his current hit point total at that time, all the temporary hit points have already been lost and the character’s hit point total does not drop further.

When temporary hit points are lost, they cannot be restored as real hit points can be, even by magic.

Increases in Constitution Score and Current Hit Points
An increase in a character’s Constitution score, even a temporary one, can give her more hit points (an effective hit point increase), but these are not temporary hit points. They can be restored and they are not lost first as temporary hit points are.

Is there another source where it says that what I mentioned earlier happpens?

[Tohsaka Rin]

Typically, you can't really stack temporary HP, most effects tend to say 'does not stack'.

Secondly, I believe what your group is thinking of, is effects from being on the Plane of Positive energy, which explains what happens if you linger there too long, without some form or source of protection from it.

I think it's in Manual of the Planes.

[Aharon]

Tangentially related:
They don't stack, but do they overlay?
So say I have 1 temporary HP from virtue and 4 from aid. I'm hit three times for 2, 5 and 3 damage. How is that resolved?

first hit takes away 2 temp HP, seconed one takes away 2 temp and 3 real hp, and last takes away 1 temp (from virtue, as the temp hp from aid are used up) and 2 real hp?

or:
first hit takes away 2 temp hp from aid and the temp hp from virtue, second hit takes away the 2 remaining temp hp from aid and 3 real hp, and last takes real only, since no temp hp remain?

[Coidzor]

Yeah, they're probably thinking about what happens to PCs who stay too long on the Positive Energy Plane without some form of protection, being undead, or taking up self-harm.


Tangentially related:
They don't stack, but do they overlay?
So say I have 1 temporary HP from virtue and 4 from aid. I'm hit three times for 2, 5 and 3 damage. How is that resolved?

Only the largest pool applies, so you only have the 4 temp HP from Aid. You lose 2 temp HP from the first hit, 2 temp HP and 3 real HP from the second hit, and then 3 real HP from the third hit for a net loss of 6 real HP.

[Aharon]

Yeah, they're probably thinking about what happens to PCs who stay too long on the Positive Energy Plane without some form of protection, being undead, or taking up self-harm.



Only the largest pool applies, so you only have the 4 temp HP from Aid. You lose 2 temp HP from the first hit, 2 temp HP and 3 real HP from the second hit, and then 3 real HP from the third hit for a net loss of 6 real HP.

That's what I thought at first - but then casting virtue wouldn't do anything at all. Why do you think it is handled different from casting aid and having inspire competence up? Both give a morale bonus to attacks - when one of them ends, the other still applies.

[Necroticplague]

That's what I thought at first - but then casting virtue wouldn't do anything at all. Why do you think it is handled different from casting aid and having inspire competence up? Both give a morale bonus to attacks - when one of them ends, the other still applies.

Why should it be surprising that a second level spell completely obviates a 0-level one?

Their handled differently because they are entirely different things. One is a bonus, a + to a dice, the other is a quality, something you have. And probably due to some semblance of balance decision (which they then blew up by making several sources of THP stack with themselves. see: positive energy plane, vampire draining).

[Aharon]

Why should it be surprising that a second level spell completely obviates a 0-level one?

Their handled differently because they are entirely different things. One is a bonus, a + to a dice, the other is a quality, something you have. And probably due to some semblance of balance decision (which they then blew up by making several sources of THP stack with themselves. see: positive energy plane, vampire draining).

Because you are spending ressources on both. It's the same if you have temp HP both from aid and from false life. My point is that this is not stacking the effects - a stacked effect would result in 5 temp HP. Overlayed effects result in two pools, one with 1 and one with 4 temp hp. It would make handling the bonus to hit and the bonus to HP behave consistently. For example, if the aid is dispelled, you would still have the 1 temp hp from virtue - why shouldn't that be the case when the effect ends because of another cause?

[Coidzor]

That's what I thought at first - but then casting virtue wouldn't do anything at all. Why do you think it is handled different from casting aid and having inspire competence up? Both give a morale bonus to attacks - when one of them ends, the other still applies.

Probably because they didn't want to have people walking around with layers of temp HP shields preventing them from losing actual HP.

If you have 4 sources that give +1 t.HP, +4 t.HP, +10 t.HP, and +55 t.HP and let the lower sources count as long as the other sources dropped below them, it'd functionally be no different from allowing them to stack and just adding 55 + 10 + 4 + 1 = 70 temp HP.

[Aharon]

Probably because they didn't want to have people walking around with layers of temp HP shields preventing them from losing actual HP.

If you have 4 sources that give +1 t.HP, +4 t.HP, +10 t.HP, and +55 t.HP and let the lower sources count as long as the other sources dropped below them, it'd functionally be no different from allowing them to stack and just adding 55 + 10 + 4 + 1 = 70 temp HP.

I think it would be different on a per-hit-basis => If you are hit for 70 damage, you substract 55 t.HP and take 15 real damage. The next highest source doesn't stack, but overlays, so it doesn't apply until this attack and its damage is resolved.

[Khedrac]

Interesting, I may be wrong, but I tend to assume that they stack unless they state otherwise or appear to be the same source in a new disguise.

So many state "do not stack" that it's absence tends to imply that they do stack.

As for my "same source in a new disguise" - compare Aid and Heroes' Feast - in effect Heroes' Feast includes allt he benefits of an Aid spell so it makes sense to treat the bonus hp as being from Aid too and thus not stack.

[Tohsaka Rin]

There's no such thing as 'overlaying' temporary HP. You only have one pool, if you gain more temp HP, the highest value becomes the new cap. You do not expend them as separate pools.

Besides that, it's way too exploitable to pick up a multitude of sources of temp HP, and then walk around with piles of (functionally) magical shields.

EDIT: Basically seconding what Coidzor said. Did you take any levels of ninja today?

[Ernir]

I find this discussion interesting.

Particularly this claim:

Typically, you can't really stack temporary HP, most effects tend to say 'does not stack'.
I've played with stacking temp HP for a long time. I've basically treated temp HP as untyped bonuses, which stack with one another as long as they come from different sources.

And looking at my first three go-to core temp HP spells:
Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm)
Aid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/aid.htm)
Heroes' Feast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroesFeast.htm)
I don't see anything about them not stacking. Is this language common?

[firebrandtoluc]

The language in the injury and death section seems to suggest that "current hit points" are tracked separately from temporary hp. And that when you gain temporary hp you add them to your "current hit points." And when they "go away" you reset to your "current hit points" unless you have less hit points than "current hit points." Look it up, I can't even explain it. Bad wording is bad. I'd paste a link but I don't have enough use phone ranks.

[Tohsaka Rin]

And looking at my first three go-to core temp HP spells:
Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm)
Aid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/aid.htm)
Heroes' Feast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroesFeast.htm)
I don't see anything about them not stacking. Is this language common?

Interesting. Having looked at your links, plus False Life, and the Vigor psionic power, I don't see any wording about stacking, save for Vigor's 'don't stack with self' clause.

On the other hand, I believe RAI was to count temporary HP as a 'Temporary' type bonus. From looking at how stacking works with other things, that seems to be the most sensible reading, but that's just my opinion.

...And now I'm picturing a person with a small pile of scrolls, potions, wands, and dorjes. "I am extra-healthy, because I stayed up ALL NIGHT putting this stuff together."

[Socksy]

@Aharon: The link in your sig isn't working for me, it might be my laptop, but you might want to check it c:

When my brother goes to the Positive Energy Plane, his characters start stabbing themselves to not burst. I haven't sen anyone else use rules about positive energy killing you when you aren't on a plane made of it, but it would make a lot of sense.

Maybe a change to the HP system where you start at 0 when at perfect health and if you gain or lose your max HP, you're disabled, ten more/less respectively and you're dead? I might have to try that...

[Curmudgeon]

They don't stack, but do they overlay?
So say I have 1 temporary HP from virtue and 4 from aid. I'm hit three times for 2, 5 and 3 damage. How is that resolved?
Your premise is incorrect, because temporary HP from different sources do stack.
Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). Temporary hit points aren't included in the limits of the basic stacking rule; they're not modifiers to a check or roll. It's only the magic stacking rules that apply here: multiple castings of the same spell effect won't stack. Virtue and Aid are different spells; consequently, there's no problem.

[Cowardly Griffo]

From the official FAQ, available here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a).


Do temporary hit points from two applications of the
same effect stack? What about from different effects? If I
have temporary hit points from multiple sources, how
should I apply damage?

Temporary hit points from two applications of the same
effect don’t stack; instead, the highest number of temporary hit
points applies in place of all others. Temporary hit points from
different sources stack, but you must keep track of them
separately.

For example, imagine a character who gained 15 temporary
hit points from an aid spell. After taking 8 points of damage,
she has 7 temporary hit points left from the spell. If another aid
spell were cast on the same character granting 12 temporary hit
points, this total would replace the other spell’s total, meaning
the character would now have 12 temporary hit points (rather
than 19). If the character then cast false life on herself, she
would add the full benefit of that spell to the temporary hit
points from the aid spell.

This also applies to temporary hit points gained from
energy drain and similar special abilities. Each successful
attack counts as one application of the effect (meaning that an
attack that bestows 2 or more negative levels still counts as
only one application of the effect). For example, a wight gains
5 temporary hit points each time it bestows a negative level
with its slam attack. If it bestows another negative level while it
has 2 temporary hit points remaining from the first attack, the
new temporary hit points would replace the old ones.
Temporary hit points are “first-in, first-out.” Damage
should be taken off the oldest temporary-hit-point-granting
effect first; when that effect is exhausted, apply damage to the
next oldest effect. For this reason, you must track each supply
of temporary hit points separately.

There. Now it's a positive yes because someone officially said yes, rather than an assumed yes because nobody officially said no.

[Curmudgeon]

There. Now it's a positive yes because someone officially said yes, rather than an assumed yes because nobody officially said no.
Your conclusion ignores some facts.

Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct.

The FAQ is not an official errata file, so it can't override any primary source rules.
The FAQ is an official WotC document. That means exactly what it says: the Frequently Asked Questions are official, having been carefully selected from thousands of submissions to illustrate rules issues. The answers in the FAQ have no official standing; they're merely the opinions of whoever was manning the desk at the time, trying to crank out something to make publication deadline.

Just because they got a lot of them right is no reason to give the FAQ authors' answers any special status. After all, most of the questions have fairly obvious answers; you'd expect most answers to be correct. The biggest problem is that FAQ answers rarely cite rules sources, leaving most as unverified opinion rather than anything useful.

Except in the occasional case where the answers are cogent (after all, it's a freely-available resource and thus easy to quote), the FAQ is valuable for the questions (the official part), and you can skip the answers entirely.

[Cowardly Griffo]

I think that's a bit of hair-splitting silliness; the given definition of "primary source" in any errata I've seen is "official rules document," and I don't know how an Official FAQ with rules clarifications in it would qualify as anything else. Also the FAQ page states that it doesn't cover anything in the errata, which would seem to state that it's meant to officially cover things that aren't in the errata.

But I can see where you're drawing the conclusion from, even if I don't agree with it.

Either way, 'official errata' or not, it seems to be the closest you're going to get to an official ruling. And it reaches the same conclusion as the general gist of the thread so far, so I think we're good.

[Ernir]

For another questionably valid source of rules: turns out the Rules Compendium addresses it.


Temporary hit points gained from multiple applications of the same effect don't stack. Instead, the highest number of temporary hit points gained from that effect apply.
If temporary hit points are gained from multiple, different sources that stack, keep track of those sources and when they were gained separately. Any damage taken is first subtracted from the oldest effect that granted temporary hit points.
When those are gone, subtract damage from the next oldest effect, and so on.

[Yael]

If I would had the doubt about THP stacking or not, this would be awesome (which is.)

But, about the double THP of HP = Kaboom Spell ?

[georgie_leech]

If I would had the doubt about THP stacking or not, this would be awesome (which is.)

But, about the double THP of HP = Kaboom Spell ?

I've never seen that anywhere but as a houserule or on the Positive Energy Plane, which uses the THP to represent the excess Positive Energy rather than... whatever Divine Power et al. uses.

[Coidzor]

Huh, well, that's good to know then.

[Yael]

I've never seen that anywhere but as a houserule or on the Positive Energy Plane, which uses the THP to represent the excess Positive Energy rather than... whatever Divine Power et al. uses.

This helps pretty much thank you all =D

[Psyren]

In PF, they do stack if they come from different sources/spells. The example given in the FAQ is casting aid and then casting vampiric touch.