Gestalt Frenzied Berserker

[tsroark]

Now I know that frenzied berserker is generally frowned on as is half dragon, but I'm doing it anyway. I'm trying to put together a gestalt half dragon Goliath frenzied berserker. The plan so far is to take a couple levels on one side as barbarian to gain rage and pounce then jump into fighter for the bab and feats and prestige into frenzied berserker. Goliath gets powerful build and mountain rage, plus I figured I would go down the leap attack/shock trooper/power attack line. Combat damage and battlefield control is down, and any enemy that doesn't die in the first round probably wets themselves in terror as a good sized thing grows into an even bigger rage beast of death flying across the battlefield and all their allies disappear into a red mist.

The thing I need some help with is what to do with the other gestalt side. The first four levels are taken by level adjustment, then I planned on taking the feat rogue ACF. This would give a good reflex save, extra skill points, and lots of extra fighter feats. But will save sucks, which I plan on taking steadfast determination to help with, and get my attribute dependency down to str and con + maybe dex. Are there any other classes that synergize well with frenzied berserker? I'm not really looking for spell casting, especially since magic cant be used while raging but will consider it if it works. I also want to reduce weapon focus/spec dependency and play the "Swiss Armory" archetype. I figure that will go along well with the raging hulk monster that randomly chooses between the "great ax of limb cleaving +1", "great hammer of face breaking +5", and the "javelin of you're still in range +2". I figure damage dice don't make much difference when Strength is close to 40 and power attack is greatly multiplying damage. I would also like to boost magic resistance, maybe miss chance and some immunities.

I don't know all the specifics of the campaign and rules yet. I do know it is 3.5 and a fairly small party. I want to have as RAW a build as possible and then I will work with the DM on things like adjusting the templates(maybe reduce LA, or abilities, grant wings), come up with something like righteous wrath, flaws, etc.

Thanks for any help that can be provided

Tim

[Cowardly Griffo]

If you're templating it up already, you could also roll as a Werebadger. Then you'd have a racial rage ability that doesn't stop until the enemy is dead–and you can use that rage ability to qualify for the feats that will get you into Frenzied Berserker. Could save you a couple of barbarian levels, unless you want them for other reasons.

Sadly, though, I've been informed that "duration" is not an 'effect' per se, so your Frenzy would still keep its normal duration rather than using that of your base rage.

Edit: Wait, never mind, you'd have to lose Half-Dragon to do that, as Lycanthropes can only be humanoid or giant type and Half-Dragon makes you count as a dragon.

Still, if your GM will allow Pathfinder content, maybe look into the Bloodrager from the currently-playtesting advanced class guide. You get rage, and it synergizes nicely with being a dragon, since you get access to sorcerer-style bloodlines, one of them being draconic. You get so mad that you turn into a dragon. Or bigger dragon, in your case.

[inertia709]

Swordsage is a good choice: they have good will and reflex saves to help with defence, the best access to maneuvers in ToB and great skill points. Most importantly, most maneuvers do not require concentration, and thus can be used while in a rage/frenzy (there was an errata confirming this, with the concentration-based Iron Heart maneuvers being exceptions to the general rule). You can later take the Bloodclaw Master prc for something that agrees more with the flavourful of Frenzied Berserker, if you want, although you will miss out on a good will save progression.

[Mountain]

Is Forgotten Realms stuff okay?

If so, look at Runescarred Berserker (UE).
You can make yourself the center of an AMF. Seriously. You could even use one of the methods of having it not affect you, so your equipment is still magical (assuming it was in the first place).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm going to strongly recommend a class with a good will save. Druidic Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger) instead of or in addition to Barbarian could be useful, you can combine it with Shapeshift in PH2 which you can use with Rage or even the Deadly Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) variant. With that you can even dip something for Turn Undead to get DMM: Persistent buffs like Bite of the Werecreaure.

Switch Goliath Half-Dragon to Half-Goristro (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) at the bottom of that page. Use something like Water Orc or Earth Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm) or even Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) or Warforged for your base race. You'll actually be large size, and including the size increase from medium to large you'll get Str +16, Dex -2, Con +12, and +7 natural armor, in addition to two slam attacks which each get 1.5 Str to damage, resistances, immunities, spell-like abilities, SR, DR/Cold Iron, plus your base race's bonuses (and penalties) for the same level adjustment as a Goliath Half-Dragon. Wear spiked armor and use that for your primary weapon for iterative attacks, your slam attacks will be secondary attacks but they'll still get 1.5 Str to damage, much like a Dragon's tail sweep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) is secondary but gets 1.5 Str. Secondary attacks normally get 1/2 Str to damage instead of 1x Str to damage, but those slams don't get 1x Str so it doesn't get switched to 1/2 Str.

Depending on what level you start at, you can gradually gain a template (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) so the level adjustment doesn't have to show up on your first four levels. In that case, something like Lion Spirit Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/ LA +3/ Fighter 1/ Frenzied Berserker 10/ whatever 4// LA +1/ Deadly Hunter Whirling Frenzy Druidic Avenger 19* would still get full BAB. Dip something like Master of Radiance or (Cloistered) Cleric on the Druid side to get DMM: Persist, and if you use an Elf base race you can also dip a level in Seeker of the Misty Isle to get access to the extremely useful Travel domain's spells.

[Endril]

Unless your DM is allowing you to take class levels with your level adjustment levels (for example, 6 levels of fighter mixed with 3 levels of barbarian and 3 levels of LA for half dragon at ECL 6), I would stay far away from level adjustments. You're giving up 2 for 1 if you have a level adjustment in gestalt. You could go half-orc and use channel rage to pull yourself out of frenzy. But if you're really stuck on half-dragon, I guess you can try to make it work.

I agree with using steadfast determination, and if you're not going to use spells, I highly recommend mixing in tome of battle for your 2nd class.

[tsroark]

Thanks guys, I will definitely look into the classes listed after work. I guess I never considered shape shifting as I wanted to make the best of the two handed power attack and the x4 from supreme PA.

I guess would it be better to use a class with a good will progression or just boost con as much as possible with steadfast determination to boost HP, fort and will at the same time?.

And LA will be on one side.

[Rebel7284]

Taking a few levels of warblade will give you the maneuvers that replace saves with concentration checks. Can be nice with your high Con. Plenty of utility maneuvers too such as Sudden Leap for free movement; Iron Heart Surge for ending status effects (probably needs to be houseruled to be less vague); White Raven Tactics for changing initiative of your allies, allowing them to go more frequently; etc.

The other side would probably work best with cloistered cleric due to high skill points, great saves, and the ability to persist a few buffs to work all day. However, this approach does take at least 2 feats and makes you need some wisdom AND charisma.

[sideswipe]

if you can take templates and level adjustments on one side then i think this might be a good build for you

Goliath (1)/half dragon (3)/feat rogue 2// barbarian 2 (spirit lion 1)(wolf totem 2)(whirling frenzy)/fighter 4(zherehim)/

feats
1- Destructive Rage
flaw 1- Intimidating Rage
flaw 2 - Power Attack
level 3- improved bullrush
fighter 1- Cleave
fighter 2- exotic weapon prof - spiked chain
feat rogue 1- combat expertise
(fighter 3- skill focus intimidate)
feat rogue 2- improved trip
fighter 4- knockdown
level 6 - shock trooper

then level 7 you prestige into Frenzied berserker.

so - you pounce in, getting at level 7 (and assuming 30 str, M/w weapon, charge bonus and +10 str from rage and frenzy)
+18/+18/+18/+13 doing about 2d4 + 22 from str + 14 power attack on each hit. and then when you deal 10 damage (hint you do) you then trip them with a stupid bonus (hint you win) and then you make another attack, yes it may not get power attack but you still get a +25 or +20 to hit and 2d4 + 22 damage on that.

take feat rogue to level 4 (level 8) and take great cleave, if you take it to 6 (level 10) take combat reflexes to help if you dont kill everything that moves. some of it may be out of cleave range and try charging you. then they get whacked in the face and tripped.
level 9 take leap attack and do even more damage.
but even before that you still average 160 damage from the first four attacks, add the trip attack damages of about 110 damage on top and then if the dont die you get cleave damages.

good enough?

for this build you want
str - X high as can go
dex - reasonable if you cant combat reflexes, lowish if not (you get a -2 so you can just dump it if you need)
con - you have 0 ac most likely, high as it can go.
int - you want an 11 in int, your +2 from half dragon makes 13 which is perfect for combat expertise.
wis - lol
cha - reasonable, again a +2 from half dragon so its above average, this will help with the free action intimidate you get to demoralise. and therefore a way to talk to people outside combat (tell me or die! i mean really DIE!)

[Endril]

Taking a few levels of warblade will give you the maneuvers that replace saves with concentration checks. Can be nice with your high Con. Plenty of utility maneuvers too such as Sudden Leap for free movement; Iron Heart Surge for ending status effects (probably needs to be houseruled to be less vague); White Raven Tactics for changing initiative of your allies, allowing them to go more frequently; etc.

The other side would probably work best with cloistered cleric due to high skill points, great saves, and the ability to persist a few buffs to work all day. However, this approach does take at least 2 feats and makes you need some wisdom AND charisma.

I was thinking about this, but I didn't think you could make a concentration check while in a frenzy. I also thought about using Iron Heart Surge to end frenzy, but our interpretation was that it wouldn't work. But if either of these work, I'd use these manuevers with your 2nd side.

[tsroark]

I don't have a copy of ToB but can any of those classes provide anything with rage and frenzy going? The maneuvers could be used in regular combat but as soon as he takes damage he hulks out. It was my understanding maneuvers needed concentration checks.

[Cowardly Griffo]

It was my understanding maneuvers needed concentration checks.Not at all. Some of them do (Diamond Mind maneuvers especially), but for most of them you just need to be able to take the relevant action, generally Standard or Swift.

They're still martial classes, after all, despite what some folks around these parts seem to think. Hitting someone with a sword really well is still hitting someone with a sword really well, whether you're doing it with a feat or a strike maneuver.

[ranagrande]

Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale

Monstrous Humanoid 3/Fighter 2/War Hulk 10/Berserk 2/Hulking Hurler 3 // Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Warblade 4/Frenzied Berserker 10/Champion of Gwynharwyf 4

Enjoy your +48 strength.

[Jack_Simth]

Now I know that frenzied berserker is generally frowned on as is half dragon, but I'm doing it anyway. I'm trying to put together a gestalt half dragon Goliath frenzied berserker. The plan so far is to take a couple levels on one side as barbarian to gain rage and pounce then jump into fighter for the bab and feats and prestige into frenzied berserker. Goliath gets powerful build and mountain rage, plus I figured I would go down the leap attack/shock trooper/power attack line. Combat damage and battlefield control is down, and any enemy that doesn't die in the first round probably wets themselves in terror as a good sized thing grows into an even bigger rage beast of death flying across the battlefield and all their allies disappear into a red mist.

The thing I need some help with is what to do with the other gestalt side. The first four levels are taken by level adjustment, then I planned on taking the feat rogue ACF. This would give a good reflex save, extra skill points, and lots of extra fighter feats. But will save sucks, which I plan on taking steadfast determination to help with, and get my attribute dependency down to str and con + maybe dex. Are there any other classes that synergize well with frenzied berserker? I'm not really looking for spell casting, especially since magic cant be used while raging but will consider it if it works. I also want to reduce weapon focus/spec dependency and play the "Swiss Armory" archetype. I figure that will go along well with the raging hulk monster that randomly chooses between the "great ax of limb cleaving +1", "great hammer of face breaking +5", and the "javelin of you're still in range +2". I figure damage dice don't make much difference when Strength is close to 40 and power attack is greatly multiplying damage. I would also like to boost magic resistance, maybe miss chance and some immunities.

I don't know all the specifics of the campaign and rules yet. I do know it is 3.5 and a fairly small party. I want to have as RAW a build as possible and then I will work with the DM on things like adjusting the templates(maybe reduce LA, or abilities, grant wings), come up with something like righteous wrath, flaws, etc.

Thanks for any help that can be provided

Tim

Hmm....

Note that Spell Resistance is usually more trouble than it's worth. Most the time, when you're facing a spellcasting opponent, the opponent will be a fair number of levels above you and usually get through your spell resistance anyway... especially if they get spell penetration and/or Assay Spell Resistance (which they will if your DM starts having a problem getting through your SR). Meanwhile, it takes a standard action to lower spell resistance - which you can't do when you're unconscious - and your teammates are generally looking at about a 50/50 chance of getting through it (far less, if they're using a wand or scroll!) unless they invest character resources specifically to support you.

Well, you'll have your wings from half-dragon... sometimes. You may want something to get them the rest of the time (such as Half Celestial or Half-Fiend... although there is the pesky 'how many haves did you say you have while you're halving your enemies?' question...). Other templates are often useful - I'm fond of Phrenic (Expanded Psionics Handbook), although Draconic (Races of the Dragon), Mineral Warrior (Underdark), the Feral template (Savage Species), and Spellwarped (Monster Manual III) are more in line with your apparent goals.

If you're playing Good, there's a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds that you may want to look into: Righteous Wrath (page 45), as it has a particularly useful clause for a Frenzied Berserker: "While raging, you maintain clarity of mind unusual among barbarians. You are perfectly able to deal nonlethal damage, stop your attacks to show mercy, and distinguish friend from foe even in the heat of your rage." (Emphasis added - not being able to stop is one of the biggest drawbacks for a Frenzied Berserker; plus the fear effect is sometimes useful).

[tsroark]

There was a much better response than I expected for this. I think I'm going to just use a mixture of either swordsage or warblade and feat rogue to boost the extra feats I'll need.

I know that ac is going to completely suck. What would be a good way to get around that. Deathless frenzy is only good until frenzy ends and your sitting at -100.

[Jack_Simth]

There was a much better response than I expected for this. I think I'm going to just use a mixture of either swordsage or warblade and feat rogue to boost the extra feats I'll need.

I know that ac is going to completely suck. What would be a good way to get around that. Deathless frenzy is only good until frenzy ends and your sitting at -100.
The standard method is an ally who keeps multiple Heal spells prepared at all times.

Next on the list is a regional feat, Troll Blooded, from Dragon 319. Regeneration 1 Acid/Fire... and you're going half-dragon anyway. If most of it's nonlethal, you collapse at the end, but you get better.

Another option is an ally with multiple Delay Death (Spell Compendium) spells is also useful (you still need some giant source of healing, though).