How many levels ia a dip?

[paperarmor]

it looks like 1-4 or is there no standard?

[Larrx]

It's context sensitive. Usually people mention what the dip is meant to accomplish. If you dip paladin for divine grace, you need two levels. Barbarian (for pounce) is a one level dip. I rarely see more than two levels referred to as a dip.

[Jormengand]

See, I'd call a Barbarian taking 4 levels in Pyychic Warrior to be able to fire of a Psionic Lion's Charge a "Dip" still.

Generally, I'd consider something a dip if:

- It's less than or equal to 4 levels in a base class or 2 in a prestige class.
- You're interested in a specific feature, or possibly two features, and not much else.

The latter is less important, and I'm sure most people would call fighter 1 a dip even if you're after the proficiencies, and the bab, and you'd quite like another +2 to fortitude, and the feat couldn't go amiss, but to me "Dip" speaks of reaching in to get one specific thing, and then coming out again, so to speak.

[INoKnowNames]

If you have anywhere from 11 to 20 levels of class in your build, that's probably the focus of your build. The majority, after all.

If you have anywhere from 5 to 10 levels of a class in your build, I'd consider that just multiclassing. A decent investment.

If you have anywhere from 1-4 levels of a class in your build, that's probably a dip. Doesn't take much to do.

That's just my perspective, though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

One or two levels is usually a dip. Enough to get two feats out of Fighter or Monk or similar, or Improved Trip from Barbarian, or TWF from Ranger, Divine Grace from Paladin, etc.

Three levels is enough to normally cost you 1.5 spell levels on a primary caster. Not exactly a dip, as this is enough levels in a class to get 2nd level spells, which is enough to qualify for a prestige class to continue progressing that class.

It also depends on what prestige classes you're taking. If you want to make a Warblade/Frenzied Berserker, you'll need to pick up Rage somewhere, which means one or two levels of Barbarian or Half-Orc Paragon or similar. It's not really fair to call that a dip, as taking as many Warblade levels as possible prior to FB fits the character concept, and the build only deviates from that long enough to qualify for the prestige class he wants to use. Plus Iron Heart Surge is a great way to keep yourself from killing your party every time you stub your toe.

Someone who goes Totemist 2/ Psion 3/ Soul Manifester didn't dip either one of those base classes, he took exactly as many levels as he needed to qualify for his prestige class and no more. Someone who only takes two levels of Soulknife prior to taking Soulbow also didn't dip it, he simply took the minimum number of levels in a terrible class that he needed to qualify for an extremely unique prestige class.

In-character, classes and levels and other game mechanics don't exist. A character has no knowledge of his class levels, or anyone else's for that matter. All that really matters is what a given character is capable of. If a character needs to 'dip' multiple different classes in order to achieve a very specific set of capabilities, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that; he's just learning his desired capabilities in the most efficient way possible, in-character.

[Harrow]

I have actually heard of taking 8 levels of Factotum to get Cunning Surge (extra standard actions) before going in to something like Warblade referred to as a 'dip'.

But I'd say that when most people say 'dip' they're thinking of 1-2 levels.

[SowZ]

If the game is to level 10, 4 levels isn't a dip. If the game is to level 35, six levels may be a dip. If the game is to level 5, 2 levels is no longer a dip. Context matters.

I see most builds moving towards level 20, though, where 1-3 levels is an average dip.

[Rijan_Sai]

Out of curiosity, would taking (say) Fighter 1 now, and Fighter 2 later, be considered a double-dip? :smallbiggrin:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Usually 1-2 levels is a dip. In a high level game, 3-4 levels could be considered a dip. 5+ levels should never be considered a "dip" except for games that go a fair bit into epic levels. Generally, if the class levels are taking up 25% or more of your total levels, then it is not really a dip at that point, but a fairly significant part of your character's experience.

[nedz]

It depends how many levels in total your character has, but there is no hard and fast rule.

I'd consider Warlock a dip in Warlock 6 / Rogue 14 (not in that order) if the intention was to grab lots of Least Invocations via Extra Invocation — YMMV.

[malonkey1]

If the game is to level 10, 4 levels isn't a dip. If the game is to level 35, six levels may be a dip. If the game is to level 5, 2 levels is no longer a dip. Context matters.

I see most builds moving towards level 20, though, where 1-3 levels is an average dip.

So, going off this, we can guess the greatest number of levels that can be called a "dip" can be defined as:


D=(L/5)

Where D is the greatest number of levels that can be called a "dip", and L is the maximum level of the campaign/character (with an error of ±1)

[SowZ]

So, going off this, we can guess the greatest number of levels that can be called a "dip" can be defined as:


D=(L/5)

Where D is the greatest number of levels that can be called a "dip", and L is the maximum level of the campaign/character (with an error of ±1)

I think that's a reasonable equation, yes.

[nedz]

I'm not sure you can be quite so prescriptive, besides it is possible to take multiple dips in several classes — so why not multiple dips in the same class ?

In the Warlock / Rogue example I used above the character could

Take a 2 level Warlock dip to grab two least invocations (See the unseen and Spiderwalk, say), detect magic at will and a vehicle for delivering sneak attacks with a magical range-touch attack.
Take another 2 level Warlock dip to grab Eldritch glaive maybe, as well as the ability to take 10 on UMD checks
Take a final 2 level Warlock dip to grab flight or a short range dimension door perhaps and the ability to spend a feat grabbing more least invocations.

All of which are useful for a Rogue.

It's more a case of philosophy — i.e. why does the character take these levels ?

[Thanatosia]

The formula is probably mostly right, but I also think there's merit to calling anything a dip if you are taking the class purely to either a) pursue a single, non-capstone feature, or b) to meet a pre-requisite for something else that will be the focus of your build.

[grarrrg]

3 levels is the typical 'dip limit'. After that you start to get attached.
I even made a Guide about dipping and stuff (PF-only, in signature).

Exceptions: 4 levels can be a dip if it's a super awesome feature or something.

If all you have are "dips" then they aren't dips, Example: Rogue 3/Wizard 3 going into Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster/other. Neither the Rogue, nor the Wizard would be considered a 'dip', even though neither is more than 3 levels.

1 level is pretty much the limit in E6 type games.

The "one out of 5 levels" equation is pretty spot on.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you're devoting 1/3 of your levels to a class (and that's at the END; it's even less so on the journey there if all those "dip" levels came early in the build), it's not a dip at that point. That's a pretty substantial part of your character.

I'm not sure you can be quite so prescriptive, besides it is possible to take multiple dips in several classes — so why not multiple dips in the same class ?

In the Warlock / Rogue example I used above the character could

Take a 2 level Warlock dip to grab two least invocations (See the unseen and Spiderwalk, say), detect magic at will and a vehicle for delivering sneak attacks with a magical range-touch attack.
Take another 2 level Warlock dip to grab Eldritch glaive maybe, as well as the ability to take 10 on UMD checks
Take a final 2 level Warlock dip to grab flight or a short range dimension door perhaps and the ability to spend a feat grabbing more least invocations.

All of which are useful for a Rogue.

It's more a case of philosophy — i.e. why does the character take these levels ?

Again, dip is a subset of multiclass. Not all multiclassing is dipping. Your example is not dipping, not towards the end, at least. Said character is giving up a lot of rogue to be more of a warlock. Intent only matters so far. Whether the character recognizes it or not, he's chosen to be a Warlock by that point. Anyone watching him for an extended period of time would conclude he is a warlock, he doesn't just have one or two newbie warlock powers at that point, he's sporting a whole suite of eldritch magic.