looking for input on my lv6 sorcerer please

[bjoern]

New campaign starting in a few days. Party of 6 all at level 6. In a below ground/dungeon setting.
Myself-desert kobold sorcerer
Elven monk
Gnome sorcerer
Human rogue/scout
Human cleric
Human homebrew skill heavy "Indiana Jones " type guy

Its been 5 years since playing and I've never played a caster before. I'm planning on heading into incantatrix next level and using MM to lay down some damage.

Feats-flaws-unattentive, pathetic (wis)
Iron will, quick recovery, force of personality,empower spell, draconic resevoir (from kobold web enhancement for +1 CL)

I picked quick recovery and FOP so early because I'm planning on taking celerity as my first 4th level spell. I'm going with the empower instead of maximize for now and will train out of it and into maximize when I get closer to incant level10.

My spells (I'm level 6 but have CL 7 from greater rites)
Level 0--unsure

Reservoir spell (3/day)- nerveskitter

Level 1- magic missile, lesser orb of acid, true strike, true cast, ray of enfeeblement

Level 2- scorching ray, glitter dust, mirror image.---torn between mirrow image and alter self for flight, since were underground flight may have limited use.

Level 3 --stinking cloud, shivering touch.

Slightly modified WBL, I have +1twilight ghost ward mithral chain shirt.
Plus 4k gp to spend.
I'm thinking wands of benign transposition, silent image, grease. Maybe use knowstones instead of wands?

I need to have a quick chat with the other sorc before session to make sure we don't have too much overlap with each other. Looking forward to some fun kobold/gnome RP while we try to work together lol.

What do you think? I'm open to any input.

[sideswipe]

New campaign starting in a few days. Party of 6 all at level 6. In a below ground/dungeon setting.
Myself-desert kobold sorcerer
Elven monk
Gnome sorcerer
Human rogue/scout
Human cleric
Human homebrew skill heavy "Indiana Jones " type guy

Its been 5 years since playing and I've never played a caster before. I'm planning on heading into incantatrix next level and using MM to lay down some damage.

Feats-flaws-unattentive, pathetic (wis)
Iron will, quick recovery, force of personality,empower spell, draconic resevoir (from kobold web enhancement for +1 CL)

I picked quick recovery and FOP so early because I'm planning on taking celerity as my first 4th level spell. I'm going with the empower instead of maximize for now and will train out of it and into maximize when I get closer to incant level10.

My spells (I'm level 6 but have CL 7 from greater rites)
Level 0--unsure

Reservoir spell (3/day)- nerveskitter

Level 1- magic missile, lesser orb of acid, true strike, true cast, ray of enfeeblement

Level 2- scorching ray, glitter dust, mirror image.---torn between mirrow image and alter self for flight, since were underground flight may have limited use.

Level 3 --stinking cloud, shivering touch.

Slightly modified WBL, I have +1twilight ghost ward mithral chain shirt.
Plus 4k gp to spend.
I'm thinking wands of benign transposition, silent image, grease. Maybe use knowstones instead of wands?

I need to have a quick chat with the other sorc before session to make sure we don't have too much overlap with each other. Looking forward to some fun kobold/gnome RP while we try to work together lol.

What do you think? I'm open to any input.

well, the problem is that sorcerers have to use a full round action to apply metamagic to a spell. if i were you i would take metamagic specialist from PHB2 which trades your familiar for the ability to add metamagic without increasing casting time.

without it you can never quicken a spell as a sorcerer and you will have to use a full round to cast say an empowered fireball.

[bjoern]

well, the problem is that sorcerers have to use a full round action to apply metamagic to a spell. if i were you i would take metamagic specialist from PHB2 which trades your familiar for the ability to add metamagic without increasing casting time.

without it you can never quicken a spell as a sorcerer and you will have to use a full round to cast say an empowered fireball.

Right, forgot to mention that I was taking that feature. I was looking at dragon sorcerer substitution levels from ROTD but I'm not really sold on them because I would lose the alternate class feature from PH2 for draconic heritage so I think I'll skip it.

At such a low level I see my tactics being mirror image for defense. Stinking cloud to attack fort, grease to hit dex, ray of enfeeblement to hit str.
I'm really liking grease for crowd control andhitting people with magic missile to force a balance check all the time.

And of course my DD spells with empower and ppractical empower next level .

[sideswipe]

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-mage--58/residual-magic--2434/

this tactical feat does two things, if you can find a way to get it then it will help you a lot in combat.

essentially, you will use your metamagic reduction empower you already have to example cast a 3rd level spell as a 4th and empowered.
the next round, if you cast the same spell you may use this tactical feat to cast it as if you had not used a metamagic feat but you apply one of the metamagics you applied last turn.

e.g. you cast empowered fireball with practical metamagic as a 4th level spell in round 1.
in round two you decide to cast fireball again. you may use your tactical feat to cast an empowered fireball as a 3rd level spell instead of 4th.
(+ if you have a daily limit on the metamagic reduction you used on the first spell, the second spell does not take up another daily use of it).


any good?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Say you visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in the back of Complete Scoundrel to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it. If you don't role-play the visit then the expedition costs you 3,000 gp, but that's well worth the benefit.


Take Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 3rd level if you're good aligned, and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224). You get to decide every spell that's on it and how often each can be used. Every time you upgrade/modify it you can completely replace its current properties with new ones as long as it falls within the value limit. The value of its magical properties has a level-based limit, but there is no limit to the value you can sacrifice into it for later use.

When your party would sell junk loot for half price, buy it from the party pool for that price. You'll still get a fair share of that back when the cash is split, so for example in your party of six characters, 1,200 gp worth of junk loot will cost you 600 gp, and you'll get 100 gp of that back, for a net cost of 500 gp. You can sacrifice the full value of all that junk loot into your Ancestral Relic to upgrade it, so it's upgraded for considerably less than half price.

Whenever you meditate to modify that relic, you can freely replace what properties it has. If you replace one or more spells with different spells of equal level and the value increase is zero, then the time it takes to do so is multiplied by zero, so it won't even cost you a free action. Get Incense of Consecration from BoED, you can light it to create a Consecrate effect so you can switch your Runestaff's spells, then extinguish it to preserve its remaining duration. Just one batch of that can be burned for a total of six hours.

Your runestaff should be an Elvencraft (RotW) (Composite) Longbow, which counts as both a quarterstaff and a bow. You'll need to buy Masterwork three times, since a quarterstaff is a double weapon, but you can also put three Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape in that. As long as you're holding it, you're considered to be holding any wand it contains so they're all ready to activate at any time. Good wands to use include Nerveskitter, Benign Transposition, and Wings of Cover.

[bjoern]

Residual magic is good and I think I will end up taking it now or maybe after a few levels. Especially since high level slots are slim at low levels.


As far as otuguh hole, I may as well take it for ancestral relic. That is a good feat and the runestaff versatility would be good. Just a few questions. Why do I need the elven staff/bow thing? My guys strength is pitiful so he wouldnt be able to take advantage of it. Or is there another reason?
Also, I don't have dungeonscape so how do wand chambers work? What is their cost?
You had said to put 3 chambers in it but looking around most people use two.

Thanks for the input, this is good stuff.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As far as otuguh hole, I may as well take it for ancestral relic. That is a good feat and the runestaff versatility would be good. Just a few questions. Why do I need the elven staff/bow thing? My guys strength is pitiful so he wouldnt be able to take advantage of it. Or is there another reason?
Also, I don't have dungeonscape so how do wand chambers work? What is their cost?
You had said to put 3 chambers in it but looking around most people use two.

Thanks for the input, this is good stuff.

Making it an elvencraft bow makes it count as three weapons (quarterstaff double weapon and bow), so you can put three wand chambers in it. A wand chamber costs 100 gp, you can put a wand in it and any time you're holding the weapon you're also considered to be holding that wand for purposes of whether or not you can activate it. So that base item would be 900 gp (masterwork x3) + 300 gp (wand chamber x3) + 300 gp (elvencraft bow) + 75 gp or 100 gp (longbow or composite longbow) = 1575 gp or 1600 gp, without even making it magical. You can upgrade all three weapon portions as magical weapons, so for example make all three +1 Defending and put Greater Magic Weapon +3 on each of them and it gives you +9 AC, since Defending specifically stacks with all other bonuses which would include other Defending bonuses. You can also upgrade it to hold charges of spells as a magical staff, so for example later on (level 18) you can make it a Staff of Wish at 10 charges per use (5 uses from 50 charges) for 182,375 gp worth of value (actual cost is just under 76k at half price and getting 1/6th back) and use it to add a +5 Inherent bonus to one of your stats. Note that if you find an expensive statue or fountain or even a castle and you can Hallow the area (or chain Incense of Consecration to last long enough) you can sacrifice its value into your relic, so your whole party could potentially all get a +5 Inherent bonus to each of their stats for basically no cost, since you're spending otherwise unlootable value to do it.

Also, Celerity is not mind-affecting, so Force of Personality will be of no benefit for getting out of its daze effect. I'd take Fell Drain and/or Fell Frighten from LM, use one or both of those with Magic Missile to inflict a negative level and/or shaken condition on multiple opponents. Use them with Kelgore's Grave Mist in PH2 and combine it with Web or Black Tentacles to keep them in it and they'll (arguably) take a negative level and/or escalate their fear condition every round they take damage from it. If your DM agrees that every round the spell deals damage it inflicts the metamagic effect again, replace Magic Missile with Power Word: Pain in Races of the Dragon. They're also amazing with (Persistent) Death Armor in SC and Fire Shield (twice), since every opponent that hits you in melee will take a negative level per spell and become Shaken > Frightened > Panicked depending on how many you have active.

Consider taking Spell Focus: Transmutation and Ability Enhancer from Dragon Compendium, which makes any transmutation spell you cast that improves an ability score grant an additional +2 bonus. That makes your Bull's Strength grant +6 instead of +4, or Animalistic Power in PH2 grants +4 to Str, Dex, and Con instead of its normal +2. Use that to buff the Monk and Rogue and they'll make sure your character stays alive forever. Note that Spell Focus: Transmutation will increase the save DC of Celerity, but it's required for Ability Enhancer.

You'll want Extend Spell prior to Incantatrix so you can grab Persistent Spell to use with Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic. Put a Competence bonus to Spellcraft on your Runestaff, get a masterwork tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) for another +2, and always take ten on the check if you'll succeed by doing so. Also consider taking Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) (different item from your relic, I typically recommend a ring) at 3rd to invest every skill point you get after that into it for the greatest return toward Spellcraft. Note that you can use Cooperative Metamagic on your own spells when outside of combat because the action economy system only exists during initiative, but with other spellcasters in the party you may want to use it for party-wide buffs such as Bless, Elation (BoED), and Mass Lesser Vigor from the Cleric, as well as Magic Circle Against Evil.

Edit: Every trap your party comes across should get its value sacrificed into your relic. Have you seen the prices of those things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#sampleTraps)?!

[bjoern]

Making it an elvencraft bow makes it count as three weapons (quarterstaff double weapon and bow), so you can put three wand chambers in it. A wand chamber costs 100 gp, you can put a wand in it and any time you're holding the weapon you're also considered to be holding that wand for purposes of whether or not you can activate it. So that base item would be 900 gp (masterwork x3) + 300 gp (wand chamber x3) + 300 gp (elvencraft bow) + 75 gp or 100 gp (longbow or composite longbow) = 1575 gp or 1600 gp, without even making it magical. You can upgrade all three weapon portions as magical weapons, so for example make all three +1 Defending and put Greater Magic Weapon +3 on each of them and it gives you +9 AC, since Defending specifically stacks with all other bonuses which would include other Defending bonuses. You can also upgrade it to hold charges of spells as a magical staff, so for example later on (level 18) you can make it a Staff of Wish at 10 charges per use (5 uses from 50 charges) for 182,375 gp worth of value (actual cost is just under 76k at half price and getting 1/6th back) and use it to add a +5 Inherent bonus to one of your stats. Note that if you find an expensive statue or fountain or even a castle and you can Hallow the area (or chain Incense of Consecration to last long enough) you can sacrifice its value into your relic, so your whole party could potentially all get a +5 Inherent bonus to each of their stats for basically no cost, since you're spending otherwise unlootable value to do it.

Also, Celerity is not mind-affecting, so Force of Personality will be of no benefit for getting out of its daze effect. I'd take Fell Drain and/or Fell Frighten from LM, use one or both of those with Magic Missile to inflict a negative level and/or shaken condition on multiple opponents. Use them with Kelgore's Grave Mist in PH2 and combine it with Web or Black Tentacles to keep them in it and they'll (arguably) take a negative level and/or escalate their fear condition every round they take damage from it. If your DM agrees that every round the spell deals damage it inflicts the metamagic effect again, replace Magic Missile with Power Word: Pain in Races of the Dragon. They're also amazing with (Persistent) Death Armor in SC and Fire Shield (twice), since every opponent that hits you in melee will take a negative level per spell and become Shaken > Frightened > Panicked depending on how many you have active.

Consider taking Spell Focus: Transmutation and Ability Enhancer from Dragon Compendium, which makes any transmutation spell you cast that improves an ability score grant an additional +2 bonus. That makes your Bull's Strength grant +6 instead of +4, or Animalistic Power in PH2 grants +4 to Str, Dex, and Con instead of its normal +2. Use that to buff the Monk and Rogue and they'll make sure your character stays alive forever. Note that Spell Focus: Transmutation will increase the save DC of Celerity, but it's required for Ability Enhancer.

You'll want Extend Spell prior to Incantatrix so you can grab Persistent Spell to use with Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic. Put a Competence bonus to Spellcraft on your Runestaff, get a masterwork tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) for another +2, and always take ten on the check if you'll succeed by doing so. Also consider taking Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) (different item from your relic, I typically recommend a ring) at 3rd to invest every skill point you get after that into it for the greatest return toward Spellcraft. Note that you can use Cooperative Metamagic on your own spells when outside of combat because the action economy system only exists during initiative, but with other spellcasters in the party you may want to use it for party-wide buffs such as Bless, Elation (BoED), and Mass Lesser Vigor from the Cleric, as well as Magic Circle Against Evil.

Edit: Every trap your party comes across should get its value sacrificed into your relic. Have you seen the prices of those things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#sampleTraps)?!

OK, that makes sense about the bow. In the feat description of ancestral relic it says thatiI have to spend 1 day/1000 gp sacrificed in a sacred spot. Doing this wouldburn through iincense candles like crazy in addition to slowing down the rest of the party. Is there a way around this or something?

That's unfortunate about force of personality. The builds I've seen all use it and I don't think anyone has objected to it. Is it kind of a grey area and DM discretion thing? I was planning on abusing celerity for more actions, but if FOP won't work I may ditch those two feats and pick up some different ones and maybe put celerity on an item as an emergency button since I'll be dazed.

Can I get an item familiar if I take metamagic specialist in PH2?

Persistent would be awesome with so many casters and such a large party to draw from for abuse.

[Gavinfoxx]

I once started making a Mailman type character.... you can get pretty far by level 6...

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=55048

[bjoern]

I once started making a Mailman type character.... you can get pretty far by level 6...

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=55048

Sorry, can't get the link to work. What was his progression at 6th level.

At first I was dead set on a mailman type guy but the more I think about it, the more I think I should give some ground to be more versatile . Like giving up FOP and quick recovery for extend and persistant. It just seems like a waste for me NOT TO utilize persistant since there are two more dedicated casters in the party.

Now just to decide on what spells to put on my ancestral weapon runestaff......

[DeAnno]

The thing about starting so early is you want a big hammer right away, especially if you can train out of feats later. If you take Fiery Spell (Sandstorm), and Arcane Thesis (PHBII): Lesser Orb of Fire, then:

CL = 9 due to Kobold trick +1 and Thesis +2, so base damage is 5d8, then fiery makes it 5d8+5, and empower gets you to 1.5*(5d8+5) = 41.25 damage for a 2nd level spell, which targets with a single ranged touch and ignores SR. You can push that more with Maximize at 7th level (58.75 for a 4th level spell, with Fiery Empower Maximize).

The nice part about doing something like this is you have a huge tank of gas, not relying on only your highest level spells to do anything significant. You may also want to strongly consider the Force Charged Sorcerer substitution level from Planar Handbook or even the Searing Spell feat from Sandstorm if you are worried about fire resistances and immunities.

[bjoern]

.Sorry for the double post, I've been meaning to ask this but keep forgetting. So I'll post it now while I'm thinking about it.....


"The value of its magical properties has a level-based limit, but there is no limit to the value you can sacrifice into it for later use"

Excerpt from earlier in thread. In regards to ancestral relic. Where is this allowed? I dont see anywhere in the feat description that makes me think it can be done that way.

Thanks

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, it was a level 5 character, and it was set to public permissions, so it isn't private. Try it later, maybe with a different browser??

[bjoern]

The thing about starting so early is you want a big hammer right away, especially if you can train out of feats later. If you take Fiery Spell (Sandstorm), and Arcane Thesis (PHBII): Lesser Orb of Fire, then:

CL = 9 due to Kobold trick +1 and Thesis +2, so base damage is 5d8, then fiery makes it 5d8+5, and empower gets you to 1.5*(5d8+5) = 41.25 damage for a 2nd level spell, which targets with a single ranged touch and ignores SR. You can push that more with Maximize at 7th level (58.75 for a 4th level spell, with Fiery Empower Maximize).

The nice part about doing something like this is you have a huge tank of gas, not relying on only your highest level spells to do anything significant. You may also want to strongly consider the Force Charged Sorcerer substitution level from Planar Handbook or even the Searing Spell feat from Sandstorm if you are worried about fire resistances and immunities.

I like taking thesis early and retraining it later if needed . I'll have to wait until level seven to take it since my level 6 feat is used up for greater rites. But I'm not sure if I should thesis magic missile or lesser orb.

[dextercorvia]

The thing about starting so early is you want a big hammer right away, especially if you can train out of feats later. If you take Fiery Spell (Sandstorm), and Arcane Thesis (PHBII): Lesser Orb of Fire, then:

CL = 9 due to Kobold trick +1 and Thesis +2, so base damage is 5d8, then fiery makes it 5d8+5, and empower gets you to 1.5*(5d8+5) = 41.25 damage for a 2nd level spell, which targets with a single ranged touch and ignores SR. You can push that more with Maximize at 7th level (58.75 for a 4th level spell, with Fiery Empower Maximize).

The nice part about doing something like this is you have a huge tank of gas, not relying on only your highest level spells to do anything significant. You may also want to strongly consider the Force Charged Sorcerer substitution level from Planar Handbook or even the Searing Spell feat from Sandstorm if you are worried about fire resistances and immunities.

You want a Big Hammer (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/hammer-of-righteousness--73/) to seed your metamagic with? Unfortunately it requires one of two feats for a Sorcerer, but really, Direct Damage doesn't get much better than that at Sorcerer 6.

[dextercorvia]

I like taking thesis early and retraining it later if needed . I'll have to wait until level seven to take it since my level 6 feat is used up for greater rites. But I'm not sure if I should thesis magic missile or lesser orb.

Greater Rite is not a feat -- only your 3rd level feat should be a prereq for that.

Try for feats

Flaw Arcane Preparation
Flaw Empower Spell
1 Invisible Spell
3 Draconic Reservoir
* Iron Will for 3000gold and a bit of backstory
6 Arcane Thesis (Hammer of Righteousness)

[bjoern]

Greater Rite is not a feat -- only your 3rd level feat should be a prereq for that.

Try for feats

Flaw Arcane Preparation
Flaw Empower Spell
1 Invisible Spell
3 Draconic Reservoir
* Iron Will for 3000gold and a bit of backstory
6 Arcane Thesis (Hammer of Righteousness)

My mistake on rites , got level 3 and 6 mixed up.

I'm scratching my head over arcane preparation..... it seems outright inferior to metamagic specialist alternate class featurein ph2.
ImI'm also not seeing how invisible spell is useful without spell surge.
And I don't think hammer of righteousness is a sorcerer spell, and the str damage would leave me paralysed in short order.

[dextercorvia]

My mistake on rites , got level 3 and 6 mixed up.

I'm scratching my head over arcane preparation..... it seems outright inferior to metamagic specialist alternate class featurein ph2.
ImI'm also not seeing how invisible spell is useful without spell surge.
And I don't think hammer of righteousness is a sorcerer spell, and the str damage would leave me paralysed in short order.

Arcane Preparation lets you prepare Hammer (the easiest way to get sanctified spells). If you don't want to go that route it is fine. There are other decent seeds. I recommend Scorching Ray over Lesser Orbs at that level. SR won't really be a thing for another couple levels, then you can retrain to regular Orb of Fire.

What about Swapping Arcane Prep for Bloodlines of Fire (+2CL Fire) and Invisible Spell for Searing Spell (To ignore fire immunity).

[DeAnno]

My main beef with Scorching Ray here is that CL 9 is only giving you 8d6 (compared to 5d8 at a spell level lower), you won't get to 12d6 until level 8. The multiple rays are probably more helpful than hurtful at this level though, since True Strikes are not very practical unquickened (though they really make you more needful of Searing Spell, due to losing fire resist on each ray). By the time Scorching Ray is good at level 8 Fire resist and SR will be more common than they are now, though perhaps not common enough to make it the wrong call. Also by level 8 you have fifth level slots and the extra spell level isn't a problem anymore.

AT LOoF for now and switch to Scorching Ray at level 8? I'm not sure how liberal your retraining rules are.

EDIT: Yeah bloodlines of Fire could work too (what book is that from?), though that would also necessitate retraining it out at level 8. You would be taking it over Fiery/Searing then though, reducing the gains a bit.

[sage20500]

EDIT: Yeah bloodlines of Fire could work too (what book is that from?), though that would also necessitate retraining it out at level 8. You would be taking it over Fiery/Searing then though, reducing the gains a bit.

Bloodlines of Fire is apparently from the Forgotten Realms book that introduced Regional Feats for characters. Your allowed to take these as a bonus feat upon character creation, how ever, I'm pretty sure your not allowed to go back and retrain them afterwards since their meant to be character back story traits.

Just remembered the book name, its from Players Guide to Faerun, so the feat itself is actually kind of an issue if your campaign isn't set in Faerun, not sure how your DM will rule on that.

[bjoern]

Bloodlines of fire seems only to increase DC by 2 and not CL.

here's what I'm thinking now.

Feats
1-flaw-empower spell, flaw-extend spell, fiery spell.
3-ancestral relic
Otyugh hole iron will
6- draconic reservoir

Spells
1-mage armor, true strike, magic missile, lesser orb of fire, grease.

SLA- nerveskitter

2-scorching ray, mirror image, wings of cover

3-stinking cloud, shivering touch


For the ancestral relic Itll be the elven staff discussed earlier. My value limit at level 6 is 6200gp.
Dispel magic 1/day
Ray of exhaustion 1/day
Invisibility 2/day
Ray of stupidity 2/day
Glitter dust 2/day

Wands-benign transposition, shield, silent image, power word : pain, true casting, protection from evil.


Notable equipment-bag of holding 1, incense of consecration x10,

I was looking at draconic reservoir some more and it has to be taken at 6th level. I like arcane thesis but reservoir and relic take up my feats at 3rd and 6th level. Probably grab thesis at level 7.using the hole for iron will made it kind of tricky to find feats that I qualify for at level 1.


I picked up mage armor and shield(wand) since I had to scrap my sweet armor for the cash to pay for iron will, wands, and incense.

I like the idea of wings of cover on a wand but at this level the cost is too high I think. If I remember right a wand is CLx SL x 750 so that makes a wand like 6k.

Having both fiery spell and empower without thesis seems kind of inefficient since it will be hard to use both together. I will probably grab thesis at level 7 if it counts as a MM feat, otherwise I'll get practical empower.

Thanks for all the input, I'm always open to more ideas.


EDIT: spent my last bit of gold on a wand of power word pain. Also switched my know stones for wands to gain 500gp and changed the HHH for a bag of holding. I won't be using the HHH in combat at all and the extra capacity of the bag will make it easier to haul around junk for sacrifice.

[dextercorvia]

Bloodlines of Fire (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-faerun--22/bloodline-of-fire--237/)

I would actually leave that feat for the life of the character -- It will still be useful when you swap Scorching Ray for Orb of Fire (the best Orb). There is also no reason to retrain Searing Spell, accordingly.

[bjoern]

Is there any way to make my kobold plane touched without a level adjustment?
I like bloodline of fire, but I really want to be a kobold for the +1 CL and dragon blood.

I was also thinking some more about ancestral relic. Would the value of my relic (6200) come from my starting WBL?
I mean believably, I could just have used crap that was lying around that would have been otherwise unusable and therefore not feasible as WBL items? Or would it make more sense to to pay 1/2 price (3100) assuming that I used items rather than gold to upgrade it?

[dextercorvia]

Is there any way to make my kobold plane touched without a level adjustment?
I like bloodline of fire, but I really want to be a kobold for the +1 CL and dragon blood.

I was also thinking some more about ancestral relic. Would the value of my relic (6200) come from my starting WBL?
I mean believably, I could just have used crap that was lying around that would have been otherwise unusable and therefore not feasible as WBL items? Or would it make more sense to to pay 1/2 price (3100) assuming that I used items rather than gold to upgrade it?

Nah, I was forgetting about the racial restriction on that feat. Stay kobold.

[bjoern]

OK, so I moved some gp around to accomadate the relic .

Now I'm stuck on what should be my other 1st level feat.
I'm taking fiery spell and empower.
Should I take versitile spellcaster, extend, or. Something else? Extend is really only good for persistant and at these levels my spell craft is still too low to make use of it.

Thoughts?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

OK, so I moved some gp around to accomadate the relic .

Now I'm stuck on what should be my other 1st level feat.
I'm taking fiery spell and empower.
Should I take versitile spellcaster, extend, or. Something else? Extend is really only good for persistant and at these levels my spell craft is still too low to make use of it.

Thoughts?

Move some feats around, put Ancestral Relic at 6th and get Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd. Any character can take Item Familiar, even a Cleric or Fighter, as long as they meet the feat's prerequisites. It is completely unrelated to the Familiar class feature. Invest every skill point you get from 4th level and up into that to get a decent return toward Spellcraft, and you should be able to use your Incantatrix abilities with Persistent Spell without much issue.

Your Item Familiar should start as a +1 Ring of Protection, which you would have paid 2,000 gp for. You can upgrade it yourself as though you possessed any item creation feats required to do so, at the standard costs of half the base price in gp and 1/25 the base price in XP. Remember that it gives you a 10% bonus to all current and future XP, so you should still come out ahead. Also keep in mind that the +1 Deflection bonus of a Ring of Protection can be attached as an additional effect to any magical ring per MIC p234, at the same price as a Ring of Protection of the same bonus would cost. So you can upgrade it to another ring with a +1 Deflection bonus to AC added for the same cost of making a new item of whatever type of ring you upgrade it to. You can make it a Ring of Sustenance, or a Ring of Enduring Arcana in CM, or a Ring of Invisibility that can activate its own invisibility power every round after you've acted since it's an intelligent item, or a Ring of Freedom of Movement, etc.

If you're worried about losing the ring you can wear a glove or gauntlet over it so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly or Slight of Hand it. As an intelligent item it's regarded as a construct and a creature, which means it cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and it continues to function in antimagic and dead magic areas, though those things may temporarily suppress your link to it.

[bjoern]

That sounds pretty handy. Although it makes my head hurt trying to figure out how it works lol. Did I miss the part where it said that you have to upgrade it all the time? I thought those were all different options that you could do with it.....

Taking this at 3rd level would force me to take draconic reservoir at 9th level. Which could be a nuisance for the party.

I suppose I may be trying to do too much staring at a low level when quest type feats have to be done in game.


EDIT -- OK, read item familiars a few times. Let me see if I got it. More or less, you don't have to "sacrifice" xp, skill points, spells, etc to the item. A better term would be "wager, or risk" so long as you don't lose the item its all good, kind of like going "all in" in poker so long as you keep winning its all good.you get bonus stuff for risking something that you can keep using unless you lose the item.

To me this sounds kind of OP. if the DM makes your PC lose it then hes a douche. But if he doesn't then he's letting you walk on him. I like the feat but I have a feeling that item familiars might be taboo in some groups.

Also, is there any limit on how often you can upgrade it? Or if you happen across $1m gp can you make it The One Ring?

Thanks

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That sounds pretty handy. Although it makes my head hurt trying to figure out how it works lol. Did I miss the part where it said that you have to upgrade it all the time? I thought those were all different options that you could do with it.....

Taking this at 3rd level would force me to take draconic reservoir at 9th level. Which could be a nuisance for the party.

I suppose I may be trying to do too much staring at a low level when quest type feats have to be done in game.


EDIT -- OK, read item familiars a few times. Let me see if I got it. More or less, you don't have to "sacrifice" xp, skill points, spells, etc to the item. A better term would be "wager, or risk" so long as you don't lose the item its all good, kind of like going "all in" in poker so long as you keep winning its all good.you get bonus stuff for risking something that you can keep using unless you lose the item.

To me this sounds kind of OP. if the DM makes your PC lose it then hes a douche. But if he doesn't then he's letting you walk on him. I like the feat but I have a feeling that item familiars might be taboo in some groups.

Also, is there any limit on how often you can upgrade it? Or if you happen across $1m gp can you make it The One Ring?

Thanks

An item familiar is an intelligent item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm), it's regarded as a creature and a construct, so it gets to take actions every round like any other creature. An intelligent item is capable of activating itself, so making it a Ring of Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#invisibility) will allow it to turn you invisible at the end of your turn every round. You have to meet any prerequisites to upgrade it apart from item creation feats, and the caster level is not a prerequisite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions). So if you wanted to make it a Ring of Three Wishes, you would have to hire an NPC spellcaster to spend Wish three times per day for one day per 1,000 gp of the item's base price (but not pay any xp costs for them, item creation doesn't actually cast the spells). You could hire an NPC Cleric to cast Freedom of Movement once per day for forty days (standard rate is 4x7x10gpx40=11200gp) so you can make it a Ring of Freedom of Movement, or just get your party Cleric to cooperate with you to do that for free. You could put Invisibility 1/day on your Runestaff, then make it a Ring of Invisibility without needing anyone else's help, which would cost you 10,000 gp and 800 xp, and it would take you 20 days.

It is more of a wager or risk to get a return on what you've invested in it. As I said though, it cannot be dispelled or disjoined so there's little risk of it being accidentally destroyed. You can wear a glove or gauntlet over it so opponents will never have line of sight or line of effect to it, so they could not target it with spells or sunder attempts or use slight of hand to take it from you. If you made a weapon or armor or a cloth item such as a robe or cloak an item familiar and it was destroyed through normal adventuring (Rust Monster, opponents who use Sunder/Disarm, rolling a 1 on a reflex save, catching on fire, etc.) then it would be an actual risk. Making your item familiar an item that can be easily guarded such as a ring is a precaution you take to protect your investment. A Wizard's spellbook is a huge liability that could be destroyed or lost during adventuring, but that almost never happens unless the DM is being a jerk or if proper precautions haven't been taken. Carelessly exposing your item familiar to attack or theft is needlessly risking your investment, but taking the proper precautions with it is just playing smart and is comparable to a Wizard taking precautions with his spellbook. If your DM wouldn't intentionally take or destroy a Wizard's spellbook despite all the standard precautions being taken, then he shouldn't treat your Item Familiar any differently.

Item Familiar is one of those 'broken' feats in that every character should take it regardless of their character class. It makes sense to prohibit players from using it, or to make sure everyone is at least aware of it and can take it, or to just not take it on your own character if nobody else is going to take it.

[bjoern]

OK, haven't used magic rings much. Is there a limit to the number of times per day a ring can be used? Or would ring of invisibility just give infinite uses each day?

[dextercorvia]

OK, haven't used magic rings much. Is there a limit to the number of times per day a ring can be used? Or would ring of invisibility just give infinite uses each day?

It depends on the ring. Invisibility is unlimited.

[bjoern]

Wow.
I get now why it would cast it after my turn, because since its plain invisibility, I dispell it by performing pretty much any kind of aggressive move.

[bjoern]

Putting a competence bonus to spellcraft on the runestaff would help, but getting the party cleric to use Wield Skill on me may be more useful. Since the bonus is the same type and its a +10, it will be a while until I can top a +10 by using the staff instead.

[bjoern]

So I just realized that my wand of power word pain won't work once I take my first level in incant and ban enchantment. What would be a better 1st level spell for an eternal wand?

My first level spells are-magic missile, lesser orb of fire, grease, expedious retreat.

Kobold spell like ability-nerveskitter

Eternal wand-benign transposition
Eternal wand-????

Nerveskitter is awesome on a wand, however wands can be swapped, and spells retrained. The spell like ability I'm stuck with. And IMO nerveskitter is the best one to be married to.

The gnome sorcerer in the party is an illusionist so silent image isn't necessary and protection from evil can be covered by the cleric.maybe put expedious retreat on a wand and take a different spell known?

[dextercorvia]

Actually, Nerveskitter is a pretty poor choice for your SLA -- the kobold SLA autoscales with HD for CL, so ideally you want to pick something that depends on CL. Mage Armor is a pretty good choice, once you get to the level where you no longer need all three castings, you can share with someone else in your party. I like Hoard Gullet, and since you have to end the spell to retrieve things, so multiple castings is good. One of my other favorites (it doesn't really benefit from the CL except against SR, but still) is Silent Image. Getting it as a SLA means no components, so you don't have pesky casters just telling their side that you cast an illusion.

Neverskitter is great on a wand though. I get a staff with two wand chambers, and enchant one side with Eager/Warning, and the other side with Defending (I know this isn't an option for you yet, but I like to be forward thinking). I stick a wand of Nerveskitter in one side, and a wand of Wings of Cover in the other one.

If you need one more wand slot, you can use a MW Feycraft Buckler for a third wand.

[bjoern]

That was the only thing about nerveskitter as a SLA that bothered me. I may just put it on the wand and take mage armor, as i have a BOH for lugging around stuff indefinately for ancestral relic already.

I was doing some math regarding persistent spell. My guy isn't going to be a dedicated persister, I just want to lightly invest into using it since its there and we have a cleric with buff spells and a large party. So for me to persist a level 1 spell I have a 39 DC to spellcraft. The soonest I can use cooperative metamagic is level 8. At that time my spell craft check looks like this:
11 ranks
2 from KA
1 from int
5 from item familiar
2 from MW tools

That's 21.

If I take 10 that's 31. I need to come up with 8 more somehow.

I could wait til level 10 to get persistent spell. And grab something else at level 7 like. Practical MM for my empower spell. Waiting would give me another +4.
I know there are spells that give a bonus to a skill but its usually just for one check.

If all else fails, I could get a custom item of spell craft bonus for +8 for 6400gp. It'll be 2 levels before I can even use it anyway, I could believably gain some gold by then and buy it.

EDIT-- I could keep concentration and spell craft maxed as I level and try to get 5 ranks in UMD for another +2 on SC checks.

[dextercorvia]

Buy a wand of Wieldskill and ask your cleric to use it on you before buffing. 750gp = +10 to the check

The UMD synergy only applies to scrolls, so that isn't worth pursuing for this. It is pretty easy to get a +5 from the Paragnostic Assembly.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So I just realized that my wand of power word pain won't work once I take my first level in incant and ban enchantment. What would be a better 1st level spell for an eternal wand?

Anyone capable of casting arcane spells can use any eternal wand, regardless of what spell it contains or whether or not it's on their class spell list or in one of their prohibited schools. You can't activate spell trigger items of enchantment spells once it's banned, but an eternal wand is command-activated. You can use an eternal wand of Hound of Doom (CW), or of Glibness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glibness.htm), even if you have only a single level of Duskblade or similar, as long as you can cast arcane spells you can use any eternal wand.

[bjoern]

So I could just get an eternal wand of wield skill and use it myself for 820gp. I can coop 4 spells and MM effect 4 spells. So 4 eternal wands should do it for 3280 gp total.

Also, thanks for pointing that out about eternal wands. I had no idea that it was different , is everything else the same? I know a spell trigger doesn't provoke AoO. But does a command activated? Does it still use spell casting time or is it a standard acyion?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So I could just get an eternal wand of wield skill and use it myself for 820gp. I can coop 4 spells and MM effect 4 spells. So 4 eternal wands should do it for 3280 gp total.

No, you can only put arcane spells on eternal wands, Wieldskill is only on the Cleric list. It has to appear on an arcane spell list to make an eternal wand from it, and you have to use the arcane spell level for its price.

[bjoern]

Dang. If I use a regular wand it would last me 6 days. However, I think that it is a better short term solution than an item of +10 SC for 10k gp. Since it would take about 80 days for it to pay off compared to a bunch of wands.
Unless.....I change my ancestral relic to a staff of +10 SC, buff, then change it back.....wow that thing is like a swiss army knife.

Edit- for that matter anytime a party member needs to make a skill check for anything out of combat just toss them the staff for a free +10 or more

[dextercorvia]

Wieldskill has a duration long enough to cover you at 1 charge per day.

[bjoern]

"The subject gains a +10 competence bonus on a skill check of your choice."

Since it says skill check, and not skill, it makes me think that its a one time check bonus.

[bjoern]

I was thinking about trying to use celerity at least to some degree, I won't be as proficient with it since I've got a few other things going on here's what I've got so far.

Will have to hit level 10 before this strategy will work. Retrain a first level feat, probably fiery spell since I'll be getting practical empower, into quick recovery. I must do this just to get a chance to roll the dice.

At level 10 my CL will be 11 (greater draconic rites at level 9) so celeritys DC is 10+1/2CL+cha bonus=19
My bonuses at level 10 for this are:
Base will save +9
Wisdom -3
Iron will +2
Party persisted recitation: luck +2
Persisted ruin delvers fortune: +4
Total: +14, means that I fail on a roll of 1,2,3, or 4. I'm good with that if its the best that I can get.

Pros to this method: celerity yay!!

Cons:
Uses up a level 4 casting from my ancestral relic for the day (3200gp-6400gp depending on if I decide to persist the other 2 saves from RDF also) making the item less useful for the rest of the day.

Uses up precious level 4 spell slots for the day that I will only have 6 total of.


Any other ways that I can bump my will save apart from RDF? its an awesome spell but at level 10 its a substantial part of my repetoir.
Note --boosting charisma for RDF won't help since it also bumps the DC for celerity.

I don't intend on breaking the game with the spell. I just want to be able to act if things get out of hand and I need to bring things under control.