Setting up a PbP game: Advice?

[Inspector Valin]

Ok, I'm looking to set up a 4E game over on the PbP boards here. I've got a campaign sketch worked out, am in the progress of building a world and setting to accompany it, putting together a set of notes for various adventures and encounters. I will be looking to start recruitment hopefully before too long

This will be my first time running 4E though, and looking through the DMG has left me a little on edge, especially on the subject of XP and treasure. I don't think PbP can support as many fights as a tabletop game could, but less fights per level means less opportunities for treasure, the feeling of advancement being too fast... it's kinda got me on edge.

So, any advice for a newbie DM on the subject? How would you guys handle the issue in a PbP game? Would making skill challenges count as a full encounter instead of a single monster be a better way to go?

[Inevitability]

Noncombat encounters. Lots of them.

There's no initiative order limiting the posts, people who aren't as good at optimizing can still join in, and it is generally shorter than a battle. To put it simply, easy XP.

[Gavran]

Not actually tracking XP is an option too. You've got a rough idea about when you feel leveling is appropriate. It's good to discuss it with your players, but honestly I wouldn't expect many objections.

For advice not specific to your XP concerns, check this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?192975-DMing-4e-PbP-Games-A-Guide). Pretty good resource to help prevent issues you might not have thought about without doing PbP before.

[Inspector Valin]

Not actually tracking XP is an option too. You've got a rough idea about when you feel leveling is appropriate. It's good to discuss it with your players, but honestly I wouldn't expect many objections.

For advice not specific to your XP concerns, check this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?192975-DMing-4e-PbP-Games-A-Guide). Pretty good resource to help prevent issues you might not have thought about without doing PbP before.

The issue with this is just how do I track treasure? 4E seems to give out a lot per level overall, and I'm not sure how to justify increasing the frequency further. Thanks for the guide though, I'll take a look at that.

Stirge: are you talking Skill Challanges, or is there a second similar ruleset that I don't know about?

[Coidzor]

Ok, I'm looking to set up a 4E game over on the PbP boards here. I've got a campaign sketch worked out, am in the progress of building a world and setting to accompany it, putting together a set of notes for various adventures and encounters. I will be looking to start recruitment hopefully before too long

This will be my first time running 4E though, and looking through the DMG has left me a little on edge, especially on the subject of XP and treasure. I don't think PbP can support as many fights as a tabletop game could, but less fights per level means less opportunities for treasure, the feeling of advancement being too fast... it's kinda got me on edge.

So, any advice for a newbie DM on the subject? How would you guys handle the issue in a PbP game? Would making skill challenges count as a full encounter instead of a single monster be a better way to go?

With how long it takes to do most things in PbP, you're not liable to run into the issue of the players feeling like *anything* is happening too quickly.

Learning how to effectively use the tools available to you is always good, and sometimes just as important to the running of the game is understanding the format of it. I've seen some very interesting things done with Google Docs/Drive supplements over in the PbP section here on GITP.

Can't really advise you on the treasure scaling, though, sorry.

[Gavran]

I thought you might ask that, so I went and googled this (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2526271) up. So long as you track the treasure you hand out somewhere, you can know when you need to drop more/less based on how far away the next (narratively chosen) level up point is.

I'll let the people who actually DM take it from here though. :p

Edit: Coidzor brings up a good point too. Especially when you consider that in a PbP leveling up takes much less time, relatively. Honestly as long as you're not doing it mid-combat most people shouldn't have a problem doing it basically whenever.

[Laserlight]

With how long it takes to do most things in PbP, you're not liable to run into the issue of the players feeling like *anything* is happening too quickly.

In the PbP campaign I'm in, we leveled from 9 to 10 in....three fights. Which felt a bit fast. On the other hand, it was also "five months", which felt a bit slow. So....

[Dimers]

You can mostly bypass the treasure question by using "inherent bonuses", which give people bonuses to attack rolls, damage and defenses at about the same rate they would get if they were using enchanted weapons, armor and neck slot items. Then you can hand out far fewer items while the party stays fully effective -- the items can be the spice that keeps things interesting, rather than necessary tools.

[Inevitability]

Stirge: are you talking Skill Challanges, or is there a second similar ruleset that I don't know about?

Skill Challenges (use the second DMG with it), but you can also give the party XP for other noncombat activities and roleplay.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ok, I'm looking to set up a 4E game over on the PbP boards here. I've got a campaign sketch worked out, am in the progress of building a world and setting to accompany it, putting together a set of notes for various adventures and encounters. I will be looking to start recruitment hopefully before too long

This will be my first time running 4E though, and looking through the DMG has left me a little on edge, especially on the subject of XP and treasure. I don't think PbP can support as many fights as a tabletop game could, but less fights per level means less opportunities for treasure, the feeling of advancement being too fast... it's kinda got me on edge.

So, any advice for a newbie DM on the subject? How would you guys handle the issue in a PbP game? Would making skill challenges count as a full encounter instead of a single monster be a better way to go?

My advice, as a player of multiple 4E PbP games:

Use google docs for battles (https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1Iwv1NR_Y9wE5KhxdQ0_T-J4wnkRZt-1IHwJD1AZF7ng/edit). Everything is smoother if the players can move themselves on the combat map.
Use Surrealistik's battle tracker (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjKjYySklKeTdGFWcWJHVWJnbTFZbkJhN1ZUc2dfc FE#gid=2) to allow players to check for hits themselves
Double XP gain, double rewards per battle - I believe this means a level up every 5 combats, or thereof.
Expect player churn - my experience is about 1/3 of initial sign-ons will not make it to the first level-up, on average. Have an in-story reason why you would have churn, and everything will run more smoothly (I had a promising game fall apart because the campaign required the initial group to stick around throughout the entire game)
Be patient with slow posters (my mistake early on). Just because a player only posts once a week doesn't mean they don't want to play and/or are not paying attention
Out-of-turn actions are painful. Discourage builds that rely on them heavily, or alternatively, have them need to declare them, and you as a DM roll them.


Grey Wolf

[Dimers]

Be patient with slow posters (my mistake early on). Just because a player only posts once a week doesn't mean they don't want to play and/or are not paying attention.

I agree with those assumptions but I'm surprised by the conclusion! In my experience, having one player post once a week makes EVERYONE post once a week, which quickly leads to disinterest and game death, a concept reinforced by this useful post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14075770&postcount=3). It's interesting that you've had games that work well with at least one player posting so rarely.

Tell me, Grey_Wolf, do the games you're referring to consist mostly of people posting at the same rate? I could see aiming for either a group of all people-who-are-comfortable-posting-slow or a group of people-who-will-all-post-fast, to ensure that everyone is having fun the same way. (Of course, since I myself don't fit into the first category, I could only use the second, but hearing other perspectives is enlightening for me and possibly useful for other readers.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I agree with those assumptions but I'm surprised by the conclusion! In my experience, having one player post once a week makes EVERYONE post once a week, which quickly leads to disinterest and game death, a concept reinforced by this useful post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14075770&postcount=3). It's interesting that you've had games that work well with at least one player posting so rarely.

Tell me, Grey_Wolf, do the games you're referring to consist mostly of people posting at the same rate? I could see aiming for either a group of all people-who-are-comfortable-posting-slow or a group of people-who-will-all-post-fast, to ensure that everyone is having fun the same way. (Of course, since I myself don't fit into the first category, I could only use the second, but hearing other perspectives is enlightening for me and possibly useful for other readers.)

One of my two current PbP games has a player who posts at about that rate, and several who post infrequently. I'm not saying it is ideal, just that because a player hasn't posted in a while, you shouldn't assume he has lost interest. Dummy-ing him for a turn or three to give him time to come back is necessary and expected, of course, but don't kick out/put on a bus/drop rocks on his character just because he is late to post.

As to speed of posting, I've never slowed down my rate of posting because one player doesn't post often. Now, if everyone but me don't post, sure, it'll probably kill the game, but the point I was trying to make is that a PbP game can progress with one or two infrequent posters, and both the DM and the players should both be aware of this and be patient about it.

Now, would I prefer a group of people who all could post every 30 minutes, like I do? Of course. I would also want 10 million dollars in my local currency, a functional stargate and a pegasus, and I'm about as likely to get any of all four.

Grey Wolf

[Dimers]

Now, would I prefer a group of people who all could post every 30 minutes, like I do? Of course. I would also want 10 million dollars in my local currency, a functional stargate and a pegasus, and I'm about as likely to get any of all four.

Of course, if you had piles of money, you could pay people to quit their jobs and be available to post every thirty minutes :smallcool: Who wouldn't mind having that job, raise your hand!

I see what you're saying. The DM can establish standards for posting frequency and encourage movement, but should be ready to accept reality when people have periods where that just can't happen. Part of your response reminds me of learning from the DMG about "the Watcher", too. Yes that quiet guy is having fun and wants to be there, it's cool, he just doesn't have much to say.

[Surrealistik]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?192975-DMing-4e-PbP-Games-A-Guide

Beyond that, a faster leveling pace is a good idea unless you and your players are prepared to commit to a really long haul; the exact nature of what would constitute an 'ideal' pace really depends on your group though.

Further, though you can make a game work with different posting rates, I would recommend against it; you should aim to have everyone more or less on the same page so far as that goes. Posting latency, particularly in excess of what is 'agreed on' or expected is the leading cause of PbP game death as I've seen both first and second hand.

In terms of actual treasure tracking, my tracker can handle that. With respect to how much treasure you should actually distribute, that depends on you and your campaign, though 4e has handy guidelines in the DMG I believe. The table that you were linked is handy though; a good rule of thumb is that the total wealth of a PC at a given level, including magic items, should be approximately equal to magic items of that PC's level +1, -1 * 2, and +0.


EDIT: Sorry, totally didn't catch Gavran having posted the same link.