What's wrong with Dread Necromancer?

[Desiani]

I asked my dm if I could convert and play a Dread Necromancer. He agreed but made the somewhat loud remark that he doesn't know why I would want to play an inferior class to the Gravewalker Witch archetype if I wanted to play a necro like class.

Personally I like that the Style of the Dread Necro. Where as a Gravewalker has that aura that detects at 100% evil even when your char is neutral. The Dread Necro I am playing has been tasked by the BBEG to infiltrate the well known adventurer guild and cause internal strife. I am playing as his apprentice that falls from his grace and this is her Redemption mission so to say.

My IC so far is that everyone thinks I am a Neutral Cleric of the local death god to maintain the ebb and flow, this is how I've gotten away with everyone and their mother being ok with me animating dead and having undead minions.

My main question is how does the Dread Necro suck? I understand how to play fairly decently and overall the dread Necro could just use a D8 like the summoner has as it seems to be a melee-ish caster... What about the class is underpowered or sucky?

[Gnaeus]

It doesn't. Its a perfectly decent class. It isn't as good as witch, which is a tier 1 class which is actually better at some things than wizards or clerics. But unless your team is all playing heavily optimized tier 1 casters, you should be fine. It might be weaker in PF because of the changes in rebuke. But you can still debuff like a champ and make an army of undead slaves.

[Bonzai]

I have no experience in Pathfinder, but Dread Necro has a few limitations. While they have a good spell list, it is extremely narrowly focused. You come across a golem or construct, and you are very limited in what you can do. To rectify this, either see if your DM will allow you to take the eclectic learning alternative class feature that Warmages get, or buy a Harrow rod from the MIC or something similar that lets you contribute against something that shuts down the bulk of your spells. Otherwise Dread Necro's are a very decent class, if a bit overly specialized (which is kind of the point of the class).

[Desiani]

It doesn't. Its a perfectly decent class. It isn't as good as witch, which is a tier 1 class which is actually better at some things than wizards or clerics. But unless your team is all playing heavily optimized tier 1 casters, you should be fine. It might be weaker in PF because of the changes in rebuke. But you can still debuff like a champ and make an army of undead slaves.

How is a witch t1? I don't see it doing more then a debuff bot :/ Maybe I am missing something about witch use

[Ilorin Lorati]

How is a witch t1? I don't see it doing more then a debuff bot :/ Maybe I am missing something about witch use

Witch is a 9th level prepared caster which has the ability to learn its entire spell list. The list is a little bit (but not significantly) more limited than the sorcerer/wizard spell list, but in exchange they get a number of strong supernatural abilities like (Mis)fortune and cackle, which may well be the best buffing combo in the game if your PCs can handle being cackled at 24/7.

[Gnaeus]

Witch is a 9th level prepared caster which has the ability to learn its entire spell list. The list is a little bit (but not significantly) more limited than the sorcerer/wizard spell list, but in exchange they get a number of strong supernatural abilities like (Mis)fortune and cackle, which may well be the best buffing combo in the game if your PCs can handle being cackled at 24/7.

This is true. In addition, since their hexes are SU they bypass things like spell resistance, golem magic immunity, don't provoke, can't be counterspelled, etc. And their patron gives them access to another line of spells, some of which are very good. And Int caster in PF means that they will have somethin like 10+ skill points per level soon, so they will be good skillmonkeys as well.

But back to dread necro, thinking about it, the biggest problem is how you will be enlarging your spell list. In 3.5, there is arcane disciple, or several spell list enlarging PRCs. You never want to play a DN with only the spells on your class list. Make sure you can import arcane disciple as well, or that you find some PRC that will give you more spells.

One thing that will improve in PF is your ability to item craft. So keep your spellcraft and UMD maxed, take craft wondrous items, and make sure you and your familiar compensate for your weaknesses with gear.

[TheDarkDM]

How is a witch t1? I don't see it doing more then a debuff bot :/ Maybe I am missing something about witch use

There's some discussion on that, with the tier 1 argument generally taking the position that Hex spam makes up for holes in the spell list. Having seen a witch in play, I'd be more inclined to call them a tier 2.

That said, your DM clearly hasn't seen a well played minionmancer. Be warned, it's essentially combat spreadsheets: the class, but if you're alright with rolling initiative for hundreds of HD worth of awakened undead, then you will be a wrecking ball.

[caimbuel]

My favorite raiser in pathfinder is a Juju oracle their horde is bigger and they have the full cleric list.

Spirit Vessels (Su): You can channel wendo spirits into lifeless bodies, reanimating them to aid you. When using the animate dead spell, you can control 6 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level rather than 4 HD. In addition, any zombies or juju zombies you create using animate dead, create undead, or similar spells possess maximum hit points.

Want to add more shenanigans, try for early entry into Mystic theurge and animate from both sides.

[Gnaeus]

There's some discussion on that, with the tier 1 argument generally taking the position that Hex spam makes up for holes in the spell list. Having seen a witch in play, I'd be more inclined to call them a tier 2.

Having won tournament style games at major cons with a witch, I'll still go with tier 1. Hex spam is incredibly powerful in most situations, and if it allows you to fill your memorized spells with utility rather than combat spells it arguably makes the witch one of the most versatile T1s, but even just based on spells I'll happily compare the witch list to the heavily nerfed pathfinder druid, which is still listed in T1 by most people.

[Dalebert]

It seems hard to justify their really limited spell list for spontaneous casting and a few more spells per day. The JuJu Oracle really does sound good. If you want to stay in the wizard/sorcerer area, I would just go with a necro specialist wizard. They also get negative energy channeling which seems really nice both to control some undead and to AoE heal your minions. It's a staple. And then you aren't limited to the DN spell list.

I'm playing a gravewalker and that's the one thing that they miss out on compared to any other raising class. Their bonethrall hex is weaker, only working like the command undead spell instead of total control of undead, and it's one at a time which sucks in terms of action economy vs. an AoE channeling that can also heal your minions. The fact that it doesn't have a X per day limit is not nearly enough to compensate for AoE and free pet healing. Odds are you will have more channelings than you will ever need anyway. EVERY OTHER CLASS in PF that controls undead with an innate ability works like the more powerful control undead spell (DN, necro specialist wizard, clerics, juju oracles). I don't know why they nerfed the gravewalker so much. I was going to pick another class for this very reason until the DM talked me out of it by insisting that he was going to be somewhat liberal in his interpretations of the limitations of my bonethrall and the command undead spell. How weak your control is really is very dependent on his interpretation of it. I have yet to encounter an intelligent undead to put that to the test.

[Gnaeus]

It seems hard to justify their really limited spell list for spontaneous casting and a few more spells per day. ....And then you aren't limited to the DN spell list.

Wizard, Witch, Oracle, Cleric and Sorcerer are all more powerful than DN when played at a high % of their potential power. No question. They are tier 1s and 2s.

That said, DN is harder to mess up than any of those classes. It is powerful, versatile, and even if you have tier 1s in play, it is still reasonably likely to hold its own as long as the DM doesn't shut down walking around with a dozen giant skeletons or fill the campaign with creatures with high SR.

[Desiani]

This is true. In addition, since their hexes are SU they bypass things like spell resistance, golem magic immunity, don't provoke, can't be counterspelled, etc. And their patron gives them access to another line of spells, some of which are very good. And Int caster in PF means that they will have somethin like 10+ skill points per level soon, so they will be good skillmonkeys as well.

But back to dread necro, thinking about it, the biggest problem is how you will be enlarging your spell list. In 3.5, there is arcane disciple, or several spell list enlarging PRCs. You never want to play a DN with only the spells on your class list. Make sure you can import arcane disciple as well, or that you find some PRC that will give you more spells.

One thing that will improve in PF is your ability to item craft. So keep your spellcraft and UMD maxed, take craft wondrous items, and make sure you and your familiar compensate for your weaknesses with gear.

What do you mean arcane discipline? I never heard of such a thing in 3.5

[Ilorin Lorati]

Arcane Disciple is a feat from Complete Divine that allowed you to add your deity's list of domain spells to an arcane class's spell list and have them cast as that class would - with the exception that those spells use Wisdom instead of your normal spellcasting modifier and you're limited to just one per spell level each day.

[nedz]

What do you mean arcane discipline? I never heard of such a thing in 3.5

Arcane Disciple is a feat from ( Complete Divine p79) which happens to work really well with the T3 casters because the feat adds a spell to your class spell list, and you know all of those. It is Wisdom based and only 1/day per spell level but you can take the feat several times to expand your options.

[deuxhero]

But back to dread necro, thinking about it, the biggest problem is how you will be enlarging your spell list. In 3.5, there is arcane disciple, or several spell list enlarging PRCs. You never want to play a DN with only the spells on your class list. Make sure you can import arcane disciple as well, or that you find some PRC that will give you more spells.


No real need to import that feat. Even with Paizo axing Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane, it's not too hard to get off list spells added to your list.

I recall checking and seeing your options for non-core necromancy spells for in PF were lacking though, but I'd have to check.

[Dalebert]

That said, DN is harder to mess up than any of those classes. It is powerful, versatile, and even if you have tier 1s in play, it is still reasonably likely to hold its own as long as the DM doesn't shut down walking around with a dozen giant skeletons or fill the campaign with creatures with high SR.

I'll give you that. It's a personal preference that I would want the access to a broader spell list at least for the sake of a few key spells that might work well synergistically with my necro stuph. That's why I'd play a necro specialist wizard before a DN.

I'm honestly a little confused though. I thought DN was a 3.5 class and Witches are PF as are necro wizards who can channel negative energy. I believe PF added that specialization perk. Is OP in a game that is allowing PF and 3.5 classes?

[deuxhero]

It's overpowered only because it's adding more stuff to one of the best classes in game

[caimbuel]

Oracle 4/Wizard 1/MT 10/ whatever after using SLA to quallify for PRC's rule pazio let out will be the most versatile legion leader. At 15 you are using 84HD from oracle and another 66HD from wizard. Atleast thats how I read the way that juju ability reads. And having all zombies at full HP wil matter latter when you need that dragon mount.

[Pluto!]

I'm honestly a little confused though. I thought DN was a 3.5 class and Witches are PF as are necro wizards who can channel negative energy. I believe PF added that specialization perk. Is OP in a game that is allowing PF and 3.5 classes?
Yes.

The class is fine, and quite a bit more powerful than a lot of classes. "A full prepared Spellcaster would do it better" is an argument that applies to everything in the game that isn't one of those handful of full prepared spellcasting classes.

[Starbuck_II]

But back to dread necro, thinking about it, the biggest problem is how you will be enlarging your spell list. In 3.5, there is arcane disciple, or several spell list enlarging PRCs. You never want to play a DN with only the spells on your class list. Make sure you can import arcane disciple as well, or that you find some PRC that will give you more spells.

One thing that will improve in PF is your ability to item craft. So keep your spellcraft and UMD maxed, take craft wondrous items, and make sure you and your familiar compensate for your weaknesses with gear.

In a PF game just be a Samsaran with Mystic past: the new FAQ still lets you add spells to your spell list.

[Diachronos]

The problem with Dread Necromancers as I see them is that, while Wizards did go to the effort make them functional, there are quite a few things that they messed up on, mainly with their spell list. While the limited list isn't a massive problem in and of itself, there are issues that can't be overlooked, such as:

Even with Advanced Learning, Dread Necromancers don't gain access to Desecrate, which is practically a must-have for any necromancer worth their black onyx.
Animate Dead is a 4th level spell for them, so if you're going for being a necromancer who raises undead minions like a necromancer is supposed to you're actually better off playing a cleric just so you can get the spell at a reasonable limit.
They have Planar Binding, but it's useless because they don't get any of the Magic Circle spells
The spells you can choose from for Advanced Learning are even more limited than the Dread Necro's list already is. Most of the necromancy spells they can pick from are either already on their spell list or from a class they're not allowed to take spells from, so you're left picking between only one or two spells every time. Granted, there are some good spells for most of your Advanced Learning levels, but a little variety would have been nice.


My advice would be to ask your DM about using one of the homebrew Dread Necromancer builds just so you can at least match up with necromancy-focused characters of other classes. Aludrin made a pretty good one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?282810-The-Dread-Necromancer-reworked-and-fixed-(plus-accessories)) about a year ago, and his would probably be my recommendation.
I'm putting together a Pathfinder update (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353181-Dread-Necromancer-Pathfinder-update-(WIP)&p=17554577#post17554577) for the class as well, but I don't know how well put together it is yet so I don't know if it would need to be buffed or toned down at all.

[nedz]

Desecrate is available with the Undeath or Evil domains; Magic Circle Against Good is in the Evil and Hades domains.
A single pick of Arcane Disciple (Evil) will give you these, albeit only once a day — though both spells are wandable.
You would need 13 Wisdom.

[Coidzor]

Witch is a 9th level prepared caster which has the ability to learn its entire spell list. The list is a little bit (but not significantly) more limited than the sorcerer/wizard spell list, but in exchange they get a number of strong supernatural abilities like (Mis)fortune and cackle, which may well be the best buffing combo in the game if your PCs can handle being cackled at 24/7.

Solution: All Gnome Party. Bard as one of main comedic leads in a Sit Com. Cackling is the laugh track.

[Dalebert]

That reminds me of another huge shortcoming with gravewalkers that makes them subpar in the necromancy field. They don't get desecrate.

Pardon a selfish question. Does anyone know of a reasonable way to get access to it? I suppose a wand and UMD but it gets expensive. Know of any other ways? I'm actually curious in general of any ways to get access to spells off your list and actually cast them yourself in PF.

List of reasons why gravewalkers are the crappiest necros.
1) Single target hex (bonethrall) instead of AoE for gaining control (offset very slightly by being unlimited use because most necros will easily have all the channelings they need per day).
2) No channeling ability to do AoE heals of their minions.
3) Undead Master does not enhance their bonethrall like it does channeling that every other necro in the game has.
4) Bonethrall gives more limited control over intelligent undead acting like command undead instead of control undead.
5) Desecrate isn't in spell list

Anything else? I made the decision to settle for being a crappy necro because I just like hexes, though I feel like the three hexes I gave up are hard to justify for what is gained in exchange. You're arguably better off just playing a regular witch with all hex slots and taking the plague patron. You can have a comparable undead army casting animate dead and control undead and just cast magic jar which may be better than the Possess Undead hex depending on how the DM interprets the tremendous ambiguity in the wording of gravewalkers and that hex.

My DM convinced me to go gravewalker with several things
1) He said he intends to interpret the control power of command undead fairly liberally in my favor. It's written somewhat ambiguously.
2) He's house-ruled that Undead Master enhances Bonethrall.
3) He considers intelligent undead to be my "minions" for the purpose of the Possess Undead hex and he's also letting me possess my mindless undead (magic jar wouldn't let me). This is actually very ambiguous per RAW.
4) If I want, he said I can train out of the archetype and be a regular witch later if I decide it sucks. It will probably be expensive. If I do, I'll just switch my patron to plague and be an only slightly more crappy necro than I am now.

[magwaaf]

our last game was an evil game lead by a dread necro and the problem was that death ward just wins against the whole class. its too limited and we had to buff it up and let it learn other spells. its a fun class otherwise that's just path to lichdom