White Raven Tactics

[Flawless]

So, I was wondering whether or not you can use that boost on yourself. Can anybody help?

[Bears With Lasers]

According to CustServ, yes, you can.
You probably shouldn't be able to, though.

(Not that it matters--using it on the caster is much more effective than using it on yourself...)

[Orzel]

You are your own ally.
Yep.

"WRT is broked"
Had to be said.

[Bears With Lasers]

WRT isn't *broken*. It's just... way too good for its level. It should be an eighth or ninth level maneuver. I mean, compare it to Time Stands Still, which gives you an extra full attack... WRT does that *or* something else, since you can use it to take two full-round actions in a row.

[Orzel]

WRT is Broked not Broken
Not quite Broken but way too close. Very undercosted.

[Douglas]

Swordsage with either Martial Study twice or the Master of Nine PrC can use WRT to get unlimited 5-foot steps in one round. If you can ready the same maneuver multiple times, which I think you can though I'm having a hard time finding the reference I remember, add Adapative Style for infinite actions.

[PinkysBrain]

WRT isn't *broken*. It's just... way too good for its level. It should be an eighth or ninth level maneuver.
Even then with the potential for looping it's still broken.

[Ramza00]

Swordsage with either Martial Study twice or the Master of Nine PrC can use WRT to get unlimited 5-foot steps in one round. If you can ready the same maneuver multiple times, which I think you can though I'm having a hard time finding the reference I remember, add Adapative Style for infinite actions.
No you can't ready the same maneuver multiple times.

Q Can a Swordsage or a Warblade ready more than one "copy" of the same maneuver so that he can use the maneuver more than once per encounter without having to spend actions to regain his maneuver(s)?

A Unfortunately not. Readying a maneuver isn't like preparing a spell. You are either Ready to use the maneuver or you aren't! You can't "Double Ready" a Maneuver! You can only use a given maneuver once per encounter unless you Recover it during the fight!
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9788453&postcount=132
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9788545&postcount=133
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9788830&postcount=134

Part of the larger, (Tome of Battle: CustServ Q&A ) thread
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683775

[Aximili]

Yeah, you can't ready the same manuever twice, but you can keep recovering it and using it to keep geting infinite 5-foot steps.

[Douglas]

Okay, that limits the brokenness a little bit, but in combination with Adaptive Style it's still unlimited uses of each readied maneuver with no cost beyond going last. Used up the maneuver you want? No problem, just recover all maneuvers with a full round action, use White Raven Tactics on yourself, and use the freshly recovered maneuver of your choice! You even get your *entire* turn, swift action for boosts and stance-switching and all, despite spending your swift action on WRT, and the full refresh of Adaptive Style lets you reuse WRT like this as much as you want.

[Aximili]

Okay, that limits the brokenness a little bit, but in combination with Adaptive Style it's still unlimited uses of each readied maneuver with no cost beyond going last. Used up the maneuver you want? No problem, just recover all maneuvers with a full round action, use White Raven Tactics on yourself, and use the freshly recovered maneuver of your choice! You even get your *entire* turn, swift action for boosts and stance-switching and all, despite spending your swift action on WRT, and the full refresh of Adaptive Style lets you reuse WRT like this as much as you want.
Actualy, you must use WRT after your turn has ended. Otherwise you'll reduce your initiative with no beneficial effect to you (since it's still your turn). And if you use it after your turn has ended (which you must) it will consume your next turn's swift action. So no swift action for you.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

And if you use it after your turn has ended (which you must) it will consume your next turn's swift action. So no swift action for you.
You cannot take a swift action "after your turn has ended". It must occur at some point during your turn. An immediate action taken when it is not your turn uses up your next turn's swift action. Simply choosing to take your swift action at the end of your current turn has no effect on your ability to take a swift action on your next turn.

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, you can't ready the same manuever twice, but you can keep recovering it and using it to keep geting infinite 5-foot steps.I was looking, and it turns out that you can't take infinite steps. The wording on taking a 5-foot step says you may only do so once per round, not once per turn. So even if you keep taking turns in the same round from WRT, you can only take one 5-foot step.

That being the case, the only way you could really abuse WRT to get more then one extra turn that's useful is to be a crusader and get White Raven through a feat, and then it's a matter of luck (using WRT when all your maneuvers are granted and hoping WRT is chosen to be granted when your maneuvers "reset").

[Darrin]

That being the case, the only way you could really abuse WRT to get more then one extra turn that's useful is to be a crusader and get White Raven through a feat, and then it's a matter of luck (using WRT when all your maneuvers are granted and hoping WRT is chosen to be granted when your maneuvers "reset").

Obviously, you've never seen Spank the Monkey.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=764997

[Aximili]

You cannot take a swift action "after your turn has ended". It must occur at some point during your turn. An immediate action taken when it is not your turn uses up your next turn's swift action. Simply choosing to take your swift action at the end of your current turn has no effect on your ability to take a swift action on your next turn.
Oh my god. Boosts are swift actions! how the hell did I forget that?! I was treating WRT as imediatte aciton.
That makes it way more simple.You can't use it on yourself. If you do, you delay your initiative order.

You are supposed to act only at your initiative order. If you change your initiative after acting, than you can get a second chance to act. That happens because you are supposed to act at your (newly changed) initiative order, and you can't change what already happened.

If you change your initiative during your turn, you are still supposed to act at your (newly changed) initiative order. Which means you should only finish acting at your (newly changed) initiative order. And that's what's gonna happen. At the moment you activate this boost, your turn will be forced to wait until your initiative-1.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Oh my god. Boosts are swift actions! how the hell did I forget that?! I was treating WRT as imediatte aciton.
That makes it way more simple.You can't use it on yourself. If you do, you delay your initiative order.

You are supposed to act only at your initiative order. If you change your initiative after acting, than you can get a second chance to act. That happens because you are supposed to act at your (newly changed) initiative order, and you can't change what already happened.
:confused: Huh?

White raven tactics specifically says that if your ally/you have already acted earlier in the turn, you get another action.

Example:
You act on initiative count 16.

On count 16, you move 30 ft., then you take a standard attack against an opponent. You still have a swift action left for your turn so you use white raven tactics on yourself. This sets your initiative count to 15.

On count 15, you can act again, despite having acted on count 16.

[Aximili]

White raven tactics specifically says that if your ally/you have already acted earlier in the turn, you get another action.

To have already acted is diferent than to be almost finished acting. If you use the boost as the last thing in your turn, it's still your turn. Which means you haven't finished acting when it activates. So, when your turn ends, your initiative count has already decreased (and you went along with it).

I realise I'm talking through assumptions (and not very convincing ones), but at least this puts down the manuever a bit.:smallbiggrin:

Besides, it doesn't say "if your ally/you have already acted", is says "if your ally has already acted". In fact, it doesn't mention you as a target of boost even once, which just leads me to believe that you are not included in "Target: One Ally".
After all, all the bard songs that can affect you specifically state "all your allies including you".
As for the costumer service, they've been wrong before.

[Rigeld2]

In fact, it doesn't mention you as a target of boost even once, which just leads me to believe that you are not included in "Target: One Ally".
Does the caster of Bless receive the benefits?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bless.htm
"Bless fills your allies with courage. Each ally gains a +1 morale bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#moraleModifier) on attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) and on saving throws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows) against fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear) effects."
Theyve defined that you=your ally since core.

[Aximili]

Does the caster of Bless receive the benefits?
From what you've quoted, apparently not. And it would make perfect sense that you can't bless yourself.
EDIT:Now that I actually read the spell, I noticed this:
"Area (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area):The caster and all allies within a 50-ft. burst, centered on the caster"
So, the description says your allies, but the area entry says you and your allies. Is that an overlooked mistake, or a reason to assume you are included in the description?


I do not mean to be stuborn, but where does core say that you are considered your ally?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

PHB, Glossary, pg. 304:

Ally: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself.

[Aximili]

Hm... Most cases... :smallconfused:

Ok, nevermind that. Now I am just being stuborn:smallbiggrin:

Anyway, It's easier to just assume that whoever wrote/revised/allowed that manuever, did not know about this. =P I mean, their intention was obviously that it could only affect others. Otherwise this boost makes "Time Stands Still" uterly pointless.