Warlock (Claws Specilist)

[j_spencer93]

Ok so a player of mine loves warlock, and wants to know if you could be an enlightened spirit hellfire warlock warlock? Also he wants to know what is the best way to make a warlock using only the minimum amount of not warlock or warlock prestige classes?

[Norin]

Ok so a player of mine loves warlock, and wants to know if you could be an enlightened spirit hellfire warlock warlock? Also he wants to know what is the best way to make a warlock using only the minimum amount of not warlock or warlock prestige classes?

What is his goal with the character? What role does he want to fill?

Sniper? BFC? Crafter? Melee?

Also, have a look here:
Warlock info compliation (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=8lv5n4f5dadfem5a8en2rkh6q6&topic=2997)
The New Warlock handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?252715-The-New-Warlock-Handbook-3-5-WIP)
Melee Warlocks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?159708-Shinken-s-Guide-to-Melee-Warlocks)
Glaivelock (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1110396)

[Socratov]

Ok so a player of mine loves warlock,
good, it's a great class!

and wants to know if you could be an enlightened spirit hellfire warlock warlock?
by RAW yes.

By common sense, maybe. Go from HFW to ES and get the whole redemption schtick. Or do the reverse and go fight fire with (even hotter) fire![/quote] Also he wants to know what is the best way to make a warlock using only the minimum amount of not warlock or warlock prestige classes?[/QUOTE]

Well, that depends on what you want to do. ES is generally just not that good, it makes you lose out on the singe thing that makes you awesome (and it's not the weakened EB, it's the use of invocations). If he really wants it I won't stop him form taking it. his character and all.

If you use HFW, be sure to incorporate a level of binder.

If you want to do damage, go glaivelock or clawlock. They rock the damage circus.

If you want to snipe, Look no further, EB is great for sniping and EB is fantastic for it.

If you want to be a mini artificer, Warlock 12/Chameleon 2/HFW 3/Warlock 3 si what you are looking for. (Woo! free empower and maximise on items!)

Warlock 12 is pretty freaking awesome at debuffing. Not a wizard, but like a debuff-o-matic 24/7

Warlock 6 is good enough to start minionmancing. Get a rod of undead mastery, and go to town.

Many others exist in the handbook. Good luck!

[j_spencer93]

He mainly likes eldritch blast and invocations that change it, he rarely picks up any support invocations so he would be a sniper

[Red Fel]

That's... Really not great, honestly.

Warlock is a fun class. It's a class with a lot of options, a lot of style, a lot of great tools in its toolbox.

It is not a class that generates massive damage.

If he's honestly doing nothing but sniping with Eldritch Blast, he's... Well, for one thing, he's not being very optimized. But for another, there's not much sense telling him about all the cool stuff the class can do if he doesn't plan to use it.

A "sniper" is traditionally defined as performing single-shot, massive damage attacks at range. Warlock... Isn't really that. HFW and ES help, certainly, but his damage won't be particularly awe-inspiring.

[j_spencer93]

I understand he is horrible at using this class (such great utility ability wasted) but it is how he plays one. And ya i know his damage will be lacking...but like i said that is all he does with this class....personally it bores the hell out of me but oh well.
Prob try to see if their an optimal way to take warlock and its prestige classes that comes out with the highest D's for eldritch blast

[LentilNinja]

Also he wants to know what is the best way to make a warlock using only the minimum amount of not warlock or warlock prestige classes?

That depends on what kind of Warlock he wants to be. There are various ways to build a Warlock whether its melee striking, ranged blasting, face of the party, item creating, etc. So:


He mainly likes eldritch blast and invocations that change it

Then I'd say Enlightened Spirit is definitely a class for him. Capping Warlocks levels at 11 to then focus on ES allows him to continue getting d6/2 levels advancement on the blast. Theres one or two nice class features in there IIRC that gives EB more versatility as well.


ES is generally just not that good, it makes you lose out on the singe thing that makes you awesome (and it's not the weakened EB, it's the use of invocations).

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by weakened EB. ES advances the blast quicker than Wartlock level 11+, and gives a few nice damage bonuses against undead or evil outsiders.

But I do agree that losing out on invocation advancement is not great, as theres plenty of powerful tools in there for him to use. Yet, at least if he goes to Warlock 11 he'll have a Greater to use. (It'd probably be best on Vitrolic Blast for him.)


Prob try to see if their an optimal way to take warlock and its prestige classes that comes out with the highest D's for eldritch blast
He could always do this :smallwink:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5934.0

[j_spencer93]

Ok well working on building it now. He went Warlock 4, and is a Fey'ri (free LA buy off, i dont use LA in my games usually unless high LA being spammed). He wanting to focus on Eldritch blast from afar, and is trying to decide between hideous blow/eldritch claws for melee.
Any advice on which is better? he does not want eldritch glaive so that is out.

[LentilNinja]

He wanting to focus on Eldritch blast from afar, and is trying to decide between hideous blow/eldritch claws for melee.
Any advice on which is better? he does not want eldritch glaive so that is out.

Hideous Blow is the most horrible invocation in the game, and I recommend him and nobody ever uses it.

Not sure why he'd not want the Glaive considering it gives reach, thus it threatens if anyone tries to get in melee range with him (I think it works great with ES 1's aura of something as well but anyway).
So, I'd recommend Claws along with a feat from Dragon Magazine #355 called "Beast Strike" (can be found here):
http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Beast_Strike

Don't forget that Claws is a feat and not an invocation.

[j_spencer93]

i got claws. The way i see it using eldritc claws with beast strike would be unarmed + EB + unarmed? since the first unarmed + EB is explicitly claws damage alone while the second comes from Beast strike? right?

[Hazrond]

i got claws. The way i see it using eldritc claws with beast strike would be unarmed + EB + unarmed? since the first unarmed + EB is explicitly claws damage alone while the second comes from Beast strike? right?

i think it would be unarmed+EB+unarmed+EB because of the fact eldritch claws adds it to your unarmed strike and you are adding your unarmed again

[j_spencer93]

Love that idea but want a consensus on this...anyone else think that is how it works?
2nd question, does the str mod get added into eldritch claws or beast strike?
3rd question: would empower and maximize eldritch blast apply to eldritch claws?

[j_spencer93]

He choose 1 monk (improved unarmed and stunning fist), warlock 3 and is thinking of totemic demonslayer 1 for allosaurus tattoo which allows improved grab while active dealing 1d8 + str mod if successful + grappling blast.
He wants to know if hellfire warlock's hellfire blast is combinable with eldritch claws to further increase this damage.

[Red Fel]

Love that idea but want a consensus on this...anyone else think that is how it works?
2nd question, does the str mod get added into eldritch claws or beast strike?
3rd question: would empower and maximize eldritch blast apply to eldritch claws?

1. EC adds your EB to your unarmed strikes as a claw attack. Beast Strike adds your claw damage to your unarmed strikes. The end result is that your iterative attacks will deal US + US + EB damage, and then you'll get a pair of secondary claw attacks that deal US + EB damage on top of those (at the typical -5 secondary attack penalty).

2. I would add the Str mod to each overall damage roll once. So once per each unarmed hit, once per each claw attack. (As I recall, claw attacks receive a reduced Str bonus. But I'm not certain.)

3. Debatable, but probably not. EC is not actually EB. You're simply applying the damage of EB to your unarmed strikes. Further, EC is not an SLA, such that it would be upgraded by Maximize SLA. EC is a feat, which requires the ability to use EB; it then adds the damage of EB to your unarmed attacks. Again, at no point during EC are you actually triggering EB; it's simply a prerequisite.


He wants to know if hellfire warlock's hellfire blast is combinable with eldritch claws to further increase this damage.

Also debatable, but probably not. The consensus seems to be that Hellfire Blast does not actually increase your EB damage, but rather is a separate ability that deals your EB damage plus your HB bonus. Since EC triggers off of EB, and not HB, it is doubtful (if debatable) that HB augments your EC damage.

[Vhaidara]

Also, the Thri-Kreen race can be really fun for this. Dip a level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian to give you Pounce, and charge with iterative unarmed strikes followed by 4 EC attacks

[LentilNinja]

The consensus seems to be that Hellfire Blast does not actually increase your EB damage, but rather is a separate ability that deals your EB damage plus your HB bonus. Since EC triggers off of EB, and not HB, it is doubtful (if debatable) that HB augments your EC damage.

Personally due to fluff wording and how the Glaive is infinitely superior to Claws imo, I've allowed Hellfire Claws in the past. However, its true that the majority say it wont work.

[j_spencer93]

OK rereading it i do agree HFB does not add to claws, however for fluff (player has cool visual for it lol) and because it takes 1 con per use i am going to allow it.

So if i get this right he would get a
unarmed strike (Us + str mod + us + EB)
2 secondary (US + str mod + EB)
if those hit thanks to allosaurus tattoo (improved grab and +1d8 + str)
triggering Grappling blast (EB + HFB?)

Rereading beast strike it says on a attack or grapple so would that be an additonal (Us + EB)?
does that seem right?

[j_spencer93]

So we have his build up until level 12, after that we can not decide if ES is better giving him +5d6 more EB damage or if regular warlock would be better for the invocations and only losing 1 EB die.

[Socratov]

So we have his build up until level 12, after that we can not decide if ES is better giving him +5d6 more EB damage or if regular warlock would be better for the invocations and only losing 1 EB die.

going warlock instead of ES gives Dark Invocations (look at that essence that gives negative levels). It's aboslutely worth it, as well as the emanation shape when you are bing ganged up on.

[Red Fel]

going warlock instead of ES gives Dark Invocations (look at that essence that gives negative levels). It's aboslutely worth it, as well as the emanation shape when you are bing ganged up on.

The problem is, as the OP indicated, the player in question doesn't use Warlock for anything other than Eldritch Blast.

Ordinarily, you would be right. Part of what makes Enlightened Spirit so disappointing is that it utterly fails to progress invocations, which are powerful and versatile and fun. But on the other hand, it does increase EB damage faster than base Warlock. So for a player who is only really using Warlock for EB (again, a poor decision), ES is a good option.

[Shinken]

If you don't use Warlock for anything other than Eldritch Blast, you have to take all the 24h buffs as invocations. That way, you can use your actions for blasting.
Enlightened Spirit is pretty bad (unless you're doing gestalt). Don't see much point in using it.
Since he is more in it for the damage, I'd recommend a Thayan Gladiator build.

[j_spencer93]

Good ideas and thanks, but can someone clarify if i figured his damage right? I am greatly surprised that he is actually looking at a few of the invocations this time, maybe he is getting better idk. I told him ES gives more EB then Warlock but Warlock grants more invocations and he decided on Warlock. He is liking the 24 buffs actually. And instead of blasting he focusing on the claws but blasting at afar