Opinions of the Mystic Theurge?

[Valluman]

I've always loved the idea of this class, but it's annoying to get in to without using early entry tricks, and it gets very little other than the advancement of it's spells. This class is especially brutal for spontaneous casters; it's inherently better for prepared casters. I don't mind that, since the flavor of the class makes the creature sound like a wizard and/or archivist, but it's never sat well with me even then. I feel like this class is one of those classes that ends up getting homebrew'd changes often, but I may be wrong.

To me, the versatility of the classes that can enter it are what hold it back from getting class features; more recent "theurges" have essentially pigeonholed one half of themselves into one class while leaving the second half open, thus allowing for easy-made class features and a clear identity. Personally, I wouldn't mind hitting 7/9 with Mystic Theurge and two base classes, but what kills it all for me is the entry being annoying and the lack of identity whilst in the class. Entering Arcane Hierophant, you have to be at least 3/4 without using the Mystic Theurge for 3/3/2 or other tricks. AH is the theurge that is closest to MT, as far as entry and progression goes, but the main difference is that AH has real class features and it all but says "you're part druid" and advances it's wildshape and pet. That's badass, but it makes the Mystic Theurge look like a chump, and essentially, like a stepping-stone and filler. That's always bothered me, and I felt like the Mystic Theurge deserved more than that. The easiest way to fix a class that's so broad it doesn't know what it's doing is to narrow it's entry classes... But it could just be me. I feel like Theurge was one of those classes that, inevitably, gets houseruled in most cases, but I wanted to get other's opinions and thoughts on it. I was wondering if anyone else felt the same way.

[Coidzor]

I sorta like the idea but don't much like the execution(but then, who does like the execution? XD), though the practical realities of having two pools of spells and only being able to really use one pool at a time and at higher levels that pool being more than sufficient always sorta bugged me. About the only one that doesn't is Green Whisperer/Fochlucan Lyrist where the point is to get Druid casting with bardic music and only use bard spells to boost bardic music for the most part.

I wouldn't say it was the most homebrewed or houseruled, per se... But I'd not be surprised if it was in the next level down from that.

I had the thought of tweaking the class to be entered as either a divine caster or an arcane one and then, starting with cantrips/orisons and first level spells, start giving increasingly greater access to the wizard/sorcerer list if they started as a divine caster or either the druid or cleric list if they started as an arcane caster and expanded spells known for spontaneous casters(in some ways it'd be like gradually/partially gestalting favored soul and sorcerer for either entry) along with some level of expansion of spell slots of the levels that had been expanded to that can only be used for the secondary side. So it'd end up either with 9ths of the primary and between 7ths and 9ths of the secondary casting.

Still hadn't really figured out class features that would really sync, other than what PF did with allowing to cast spells from both sides in the same turn every so often, but it seemed like the conceptual constraint would help think of class features at the time. And that it'd avoid some of the downsides of traditional mystic theurge by not having as much delay in casting progression, even if the first level didn't progress the main casting track and instead just added on the secondary one.

Never went past the level of the rough concept though, so I never really went to work on class features for it, either. :/

Maybe giving up slots of one side in exchange for metamagic benefits? Then again that may just be another thing Pathfinder or another Theurge class has already done...

[Rebel7284]

I like how Ultimate Magus was done. Great synergistic features. Free metamagic. Needs only one level on the spontaneous side.

[Segev]

Mystic Theurge came out while the concept of balance still assumed that fighter was nearly one of the most powerful classes in the game. It was overly cautious, on the one hand, in trying to ensure that dual access to divine/arcane didn't make the ubercaster. (It was not yet realized that the straight CoDzilla was the strongest thing in the game, nor that the Wizard was a close second if not a contender for first at the highest levels...nor that the reason for this is that the 9th level spell access in ONE is better than broader spell access in two.)

It was, in some ways, right to be trepidatious, because casters are the most powerful things in the game. On the other hand, it is rather dull, and is weaker than later offerings that do much the same thing.

As it stands, it's a placeholder that lets you at least continue your dual progression after a better dual-casting PrC is finished.

[dextercorvia]

I think Mystic Theurge with Early Entry is still better than the various T2 spontaneous classes. You are only one level behind a straight Wizard/Cleric (as would be a Sorcerer, etc), but you have the extra practical versatility of having 2+ lists to cast from. I will say that it is pretty sweet right around level 4-8 when an otherwise MedOp T1 still risks running out of spells/day.

[Gorfnod]

As someone who has played a mystic theurge, 3 Wizard/3 Cleric/6 MT before the campaign ended, I can honestly say that the class is a blast to play and has been constantly bashed on these boards as "useless without early entry" unfairly. I think the problem is that people compare Mystic Theurge to a straight wizard or straight cleric, these are apples and oranges. Go ahead and compare that MT to a Wizard 10/Cleric 10. Even assuming a no additional dual casting PrCs you can still get 8th level spells in two classes or 9ths in one and 7ths in the other. Earth shattering power, here I come. There is no arguement that can be made that can put MT below Tier 3 and it probably is actually Tier 2.

Do any of you remember when MT was released, people raged at how overpowered it was. The thought of advancing two casting classes was a joke and clearly a mistake by WotC. Then Arcane Heirophant hit and all of a sudden MT was underpowered because of its lack of features. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE AH, but it really is just power creep at work. Fighters, rogues, barbarians, monks, they should be getting new and interesting abilities every level, NO DEAD LEVELS. Primary casters already get this, its called spells. The druid is my favorite class but everything the get on top of 9ths is ridiculous.

I will agree that if I was in a party with a full wizard and/or a full cleric at the time I probably would have felt underpowered, maybe even out of my league but honestly I find that unless you are playing with other people that read GiTP, BG, MM or some other forum they probably don't play at a Tier 1 level anyways.

TL;DR: MT suffers from playground optimization and in actual play is perfectly fine without early entry or homebrew.

[atemu1234]

It has its issues, but a necromancer/cleric with the death and unearth domains can make it awesome, especially if you invest in divine feats.

[sideswipe]

i like mystic theurge, and i am a great supporter of the class having no last level. (you can be cleric 3/ wizard 1/ MT 16 (dual 9ths)).

it suffers because of what is said above. but it is also a very powerful class when put in the hands of an optimiser that loves casters.

[Rebel7284]

Go ahead and compare that MT to a Wizard 10/Cleric 10.

For the first THIRD of the game, I see no difference. Plus not all games get to level 20.. so yeah...

[dextercorvia]

For the first THIRD of the game, I see no difference. Plus not all games get to level 20.. so yeah...

Actually, for the first 2/3s of the game Wizard10/Cleric X is superior to Wizard3/Cleric3/Mystic TheurgeX. The latter doesn't surpass the former until ECL 14.

Edit: This is assuming you take the levels of the first build in the order stated, which is preferable.

[Valluman]

Mixed feelings, it seems, but in general, everyone loves the Mystic Theurge, at the very least in concept. It's weaker than a straight wizard, cleric, druid, etc. It's also more fun than a straight class, according to most. I've never been a fan of the wizard/cleric Theurge, even if it is the most basic one largely because you lose the ability to wear all that armor, MT doesn't advance turning, and there are lots of better PRCs for the cleric... Granted, Dread Necromancer/Cleric does sound fun, and it can wear some armor too, so that's neat.

Part of me wishes the entry requirements were different; that being the biggest gripe I have with the class. It'd be nice if the skill requirements were what made entry after level 5 or 6 a thing and that the spellcasting requirements didn't have levels and just wanted the character to be able to cast both types of magic. Also, from the way I read Mystic Theurge's flavor text, it sounds like an Archivist in a way, and I've been fantasizing and wishing "what if Mystic Theurge advanced Dark Knowledge". I can't think of any PRC that does that for the Archivist either. The MT wasn't designed when Archivist was released, and I've always wondered how Wizards of the Coast would have designed Mystic Theurge later in the game. Maybe they would have made it half archivist? Maybe they'd make it half wizard? Maybe a wizard/archivist specific class? Or something entirely different?

[sideswipe]

Granted, Dread Necromancer/Cleric does sound fun, and it can wear some armor too, so that's neat.


Battle Caster and your back to heavier armour.

[eggynack]

I'm not the biggest fan. The class has always just seemed so messy and inelegant to me, granting two separate progressions that are never given a connection to each other. It doesn't help that the class has that silly issue where it doesn't progress long enough on its own to grant dual 9th's by 20.

[Snails]

The class has issues, but not particularly more than other classes, especially PrCs.

My main complaint is that it is annoyingly backloaded. Until you hit level 10th (Wiz3/Clr3/MT4), you are really dragging behind other classes.

[Valluman]

I'm not the biggest fan. The class has always just seemed so messy and inelegant to me, granting two separate progressions that are never given a connection to each other. It doesn't help that the class has that silly issue where it doesn't progress long enough on its own to grant dual 9th's by 20.

Personally, and as a guy who almost always plays casters, I think dual nines is a disgusting thing. The reason people crave dual nines with theurgic builds is because they know it's the most powerful thing to do. It's never sat well with me that THAT is the objective of theurging for most. I'd be perfectly content with 9/7 or something along those lines because it's not in the realm of literally playing two tier ones or twos at the same time. A tier one is already more powerful than most others in the whole game; why do you NEED to be two tier ones at the same time with full benefits from both? A prime example of dual nine power is the Arcane Hierophant who uses Mystic Theurge as filler levels; they get most of their wildshape benefits, all of the spells from both wizard and druid, the amazing pet, and the ability to wear armor as a wizard. All of those class benefits sound amazing WITHOUT the dual nines; those just send this thing off the deep end of overpowered, and I don't think the intent with theurging was ever to be overpowered.

[Urpriest]

My biggest problem with Mystic Theurge is that it's based on the idea that Divine and Arcane magic are meaningfully different enough to warrant a dual-progression class, and they really aren't. You've got a couple feat lines, like Divine Metamagic and Arcane Thesis, to distinguish the two, as well as some PrCs and casting in armor (neither of which are relevant for a Mystic Theurge). By contrast, Spontaneous and Prepared casting really are meaningfully different, both in how they play and in the sorts of resources available to them, which is why Ultimate Magus is so much more interesting a class than Mystic Theurge, and why the other theurge-types (Anima Mage, Soulcaster, Noctumancer) are more interesting than them.

Basically, I have yet to see a Mystic Theurge that wouldn't be both stronger and more flavorful as a single-classed character, because "Divine and Arcane" in practice just means "magic and also magic".

[eggynack]

Personally, and as a guy who almost always plays casters, I think dual nines is a disgusting thing. The reason people crave dual nines with theurgic builds is because they know it's the most powerful thing to do. It's never sat well with me that THAT is the objective of theurging for most. I'd be perfectly content with 9/7 or something along those lines because it's not in the realm of literally playing two tier ones or twos at the same time. A tier one is already more powerful than most others in the whole game; why do you NEED to be two tier ones at the same time with full benefits from both? A prime example of dual nine power is the Arcane Hierophant who uses Mystic Theurge as filler levels; they get most of their wildshape benefits, all of the spells from both wizard and druid, the amazing pet, and the ability to wear armor as a wizard. All of those class benefits sound amazing WITHOUT the dual nines; those just send this thing off the deep end of overpowered, and I don't think the intent with theurging was ever to be overpowered.
First, dual nines actually isn't the most powerful thing to do by a longshot. Really, the only difference between a caster with wizard 9th's and a caster with both wizard and cleric 9th's is miracle, and the only difference between it and a caster with wizard and druid 9th's is nothing. You'd be better off just picking up some actual abilities, like from incantatrix, or hell, even archmage. Second, it's just annoying to have to transition back to wizard or cleric after your theurge period. It feels bad, and feeling bad because of your class progression just isn't a good thing.

Third, it's the reward for all of the crappiness you've endured as a mystic theurge. You're behind by three spell levels on both sides for your entire career, and at the one time that would finally stop mattering, when there are no more spell levels to conquer, mystic theurge just leaves you hanging like at the beginning of your progression. That, to use a highly technical term, sucks. Finally, seriously, arcane hierophant isn't overpowered at all, or at least it's not overpowered compared to just going straight 20 in either class. You're vastly overrating how powerful theurging is. Without early entry, a decent way of thinking about it is that a druid with arcane hierophant is a lot like a druid with VoP. You do alright, and a lot better than most, especially because you get fancy druid-specific rewards for your theurging efforts, but you're still facing a significant reduction in power.

[Doug Lampert]

Do any of you remember when MT was released, people raged at how overpowered it was. The thought of advancing two casting classes was a joke and clearly a mistake by WotC.

I remember, I was on Rec.games.frp.dnd at the time, and within a week of the first mention of the class in the group it was being used as an example of an excessively weak prestige class in discussions and TAKEN FOR GRANTED that everyone knew it was crap.

Yeah, there was a very short knee-jerk "that's really strong", then sanity set in when the math was done. Do the spells/day at various levels for builds, and compare to a single class caster. It's only "good" level is at character level 20 when you FINALLY get 9ths in one of your classes.

Then the Epic progression hits...

I don't consider, "less than a week of looking at it by a relatively small group to firmly establish it as a weak option" as all that strong. It only looked strong till you made a build.

[Valluman]

Leveling up a 20 Wizard or Druid certainly has more immediate power than the AH, yes; I was never arguing that. However, at level 20, the Arcane Hierophant is superior to the Wizard or the Druid, and that's the main thing I'm looking at. Of course, a Wizard and a Druid (two people) will always be better than the Arcane Hierophant (one person), but one on one, at level 20, we know what's more powerful.

My thought, and what I believe the intent of WotC was, is that theurging shouldn't give you dual nines; you should be able to hit nines as one caster while gaining several benefits of your other half. As Urpriest mentioned, Ultimate Magus is a good example of an interesting class, and there's no way to get dual nines as that class either.

[eggynack]

Leveling up a 20 Wizard or Druid certainly has more immediate power than the AH, yes; I was never arguing that. However, at level 20, the Arcane Hierophant is superior to the Wizard or the Druid, and that's the main thing I'm looking at. Of course, a Wizard and a Druid (two people) will always be better than the Arcane Hierophant (one person), but one on one, at level 20, we know what's more powerful.

Somewhat, but a wizard or druid with different prestige classes will, in turn, be more powerful than the theurge. You're cutting out this one level at which the theurge is unfair, but they're not even particularly unfair at that level, and things are tilted like crazy towards the not-theurge at every other level. It's not like the theurge would even necessarily win the fight, even if they are favored. This is the main thing you're looking at, but it really shouldn't be. When you pay the price for power, and theurges absolutely do, then you should get a reward for that sacrifice.

[Valluman]

Personally, I doubt talking about which tier 1+ is better than another tier 1+ is going to get anything anywhere (especially if agreeing doesn't seem likely); the idea was to look for opinions on the Mystic Theurge class, anyway, and not to debate it.

[eggynack]

Personally, I doubt talking about which tier 1+ is better than another tier 1+ is going to get anything anywhere (especially if agreeing doesn't seem likely); the idea was to look for opinions on the Mystic Theurge class, anyway, and not to debate it.
I dunno. It feels like we have a pretty reasonable idea of the power levels involved here. The arcane hierophant 20 is going to be stronger than the wizard 20, and the other power prestige class 20 is going to, in turn, be stronger than the wizard 20. Is that not an agreeable conclusion? Simultaneously, at nearly any place where the arcane hierophant lacks 9th's, it is going to be somewhat weaker than the same leveled wizard, at least without early entry, often to a pretty large degree. Is that not also an agreeable conclusion? What follows, that the mystic theurge situation, where you're usually behind and pretty much never ahead, is a bad one, is that part of my opinion on the class.

[Harrow]

Fighters, rogues, barbarians, monks, they should be getting new and interesting abilities every level, NO DEAD LEVELS.

Monks don't have any dead levels, haven't you seen their table? Oh, wait, you specified "new and interesting abilities". Yeah, they don't get those. Sorry to bring this up in an irrelevant thread, there was just a series of online articles that gave some mostly fluff abilities to core classes to fill out their tables more, and lauded Druid and Monk as the pinnacle of game design because they don't have any dead levels.


Back on topic, I've never really cared for the Mystic Theurge. If it only required spellcasting (and some skill points) on one side and just granted 10 levels of progression on the other, I think I would like it more. As it is, I just hate losing spell levels so much. I end up spending a bunch of time, sitting around and thinking about what spell effects I could be using if I hadn't deviated from pure caster. Maybe that's why I don't like playing full caster, I can't help but play them Boring, But Practical.

[Valluman]

Ah, yes; if the opinion is that the Mystic Theurge is never in a good spot (compared to it's base classes), then yes, that's completely agreeable. When I was talking about not wanting to debate, I was referring to dual nines (something I feel theurgic builds shouldn't have). The Mystic Theurge not getting dual nines is okay with me... But it not gaining any class features and putting itself behind three levels in order to get into this class feels entirely bad.

[eggynack]

Ah, yes; if the opinion is that the Mystic Theurge is never in a good spot (compared to it's base classes), then yes, that's completely agreeable. When I was talking about not wanting to debate, I was referring to dual nines (something I feel theurgic builds shouldn't have). The Mystic Theurge not getting dual nines is okay with me... But it not gaining any class features and putting itself behind three levels in order to get into this class feels entirely bad.
Yes, but the point is that dual 9's is the thing that would put them ahead. I'm honestly not all that sure what the issue you have with them is. Wizards get nearly all the 9th's already. Seriously, if all you're getting out of this is miracle, then you can get to about the same place by just picking up arcane disciple for the luck or community domain, under the assumption that it's one of your wizard bonus feats indirectly paying for it.

[Valluman]

It's largely the thought process that I don't think it was ever the intention of WotC for players to have dual nines. If it were the intention, True Necromancer wouldn't be as awful as it is. I also feel like class features, in place of dual nines, could fill the void and give more flavor to a class than having more spells could.

[eggynack]

It's largely the thought process that I don't think it was ever the intention of WotC for players to have dual nines. If it were the intention, True Necromancer wouldn't be as awful as it is. I also feel like class features, in place of dual nines, could fill the void and give more flavor to a class than having more spells could.
The game really should just do both. Dual 9's is the hyper-cool apotheosis type capstone to your efforts. Class features are so that the class isn't limp, boring, and lifeless before that. I mean, just consider how much power you perceived dual 9th's as having, despite the fact that it's objectively just not the best ability. That's a great thing to have on a class: something that feels crazy and broken, without actually being crazy and broken.

[dextercorvia]

by just picking up arcane disciple for the luck or community domain,

Don't do it this way, please. Dip Divine Oracle and UMD a wand of Substitute Domain.

My favorite way to get Domains on a Wizard is to use the Domain Granted Ability ACF in CC, on a Domain wizard. The ACF states that if you gain levels in a class which grants a domain, you get the full benefit of the domain that you previously only had the granted ability for. You can get quite a lot of different spells that way. Tack on the couple of Arcane PRCs which add domains, and the aforementioned wand of Substitute Domain, and you pretty much get all the Cleric spells you might want.

Archivist works the other way, of course, as you can acquire any spell in the game with that class without spending your feats.

Chameleon is actually my favorite Theurge PrC. It is pretty easy to get Dual 9ths from all the spell lists with that class (actually earlier than the Archivist -- though you end up with fewer slots).

[Valluman]

The game really should just do both. Dual 9's is the hyper-cool apotheosis type capstone to your efforts. Class features are so that the class isn't limp, boring, and lifeless before that. I mean, just consider how much power you perceived dual 9th's as having, despite the fact that it's objectively just not the best ability. That's a great thing to have on a class: something that feels crazy and broken, without actually being crazy and broken.

Thinking objectively, I can see your point. After all, we can't cast more than one spell in a round (without using metamagic or something of the sort). As such, characters who are really good with metamagic or characters with real class benefits will, more than likely, outshine the Theurges, even at max levels. Even so, it's very clear the intention from WotC was never dual-nines. Giving a character dual nines AND class features (depending on what said features are) could potentially make that character outshine most others UNLESS getting into said class was a pain in the neck. It almost sounds as though the "three levels behind" thing is part of being a theurge so that the payoff is great. However, entering Mystic Theurge is usually done with early entry methods and doesn't really put one behind but one level in most cases. Granted, it's understandable why one would want to early entry in to that class, since the payoff isn't all that worth it without doing such.

And I guess that's where the Mystic Theurge becomes a problem. It's hard to get in to without tricks, it gets no class features, and it's library means nothing to a full wizard (or full arcane progression class "wizard"). EDIT: In the long run, when you look at 3.5 core, you have to realize the Mystic Theurge was designed for wizard/cleric or sorcerer/cleric; anything else is less optimal (and the sorcerer was weaker than wizard/cleric anyway). The reason it has nothing is because the bases have nothing. The later 3.5 went, the worse and worse Mystic Theurge became, not that it was too grand to begin with in the first place... And that's sad because the concept is amazing.

[Urpriest]

The thing is, most classes that get 9ths at all get dual 9s. Sorcerors have three 9ths by 20th level, Wizards have at least eight, Druids and Clerics have long lists...

Yes, I know that "dual 9s" refers to 9s from two lists...but when the lists are quite similar, it's a meaningless distinction. Mystic Theurge dual 9s aren't qualitatively different from the three 9ths a Sorceror can know, or the eight a Wizard will know. So it's not really something to harp on either way.

[Valluman]

Let me pose a new question, then. We seem to have come to the agreement that dual nines isn't a bad thing (especially if you have to work for it), and that the Mystic Theurge's lack of identity is one of it's major issues. It seems most feel that dual nines isn't even as great as straight nines with good class features (such as from Incantrix).

If you were allowed to change the Mystic Theurge, what would you do to it? Would you give it a concept like the True Necromancer had without the awful spell progression? Would you give the Theurge class features? Would you lower the entry requirements or change them to be more forgiving (such as allowing a 1/4 build instead of a 3/3 [it already gets early entry akin to that anyway])? Would you create multiple new classes with more specific entry classes, such as the Arcane Hierophant?

Or would you do something entirely different or a combination or whatever?

[atemu1234]

Let me pose a new question, then. We seem to have come to the agreement that dual nines isn't a bad thing (especially if you have to work for it), and that the Mystic Theurge's lack of identity is one of it's major issues. It seems most feel that dual nines isn't even as great as straight nines with good class features (such as from Incantrix).

If you were allowed to change the Mystic Theurge, what would you do to it? Would you give it a concept like the True Necromancer had without the awful spell progression? Would you give the Theurge class features? Would you lower the entry requirements or change them to be more forgiving (such as allowing a 1/4 build instead of a 3/3 [it already gets early entry akin to that anyway])? Would you create multiple new classes with more specific entry classes, such as the Arcane Hierophant?

Even though I personally like MT, I'd probably go with the last option. Or maybe lower the entry requirements to LVL 1 spells. That way it's a better distribution throughout all the levels.

[dextercorvia]

If I were rebuilding the Mystic Theurge, it would be a base class. It would look just like the Archivist except I would remove the restriction about spells for leveling up having to come from the cleric list, and I would also remove the pseudo restriction about only divine spells, because that is so easy to get around.

Edit: I would also let the Sorcerer just pick spells from any list for a Spontaneous Theurge.

[Valluman]

I'm personally an advocate of the "break apart the Theurge into a bunch of other Theurges" method, since I feel like the Arcane Hierophant was a successful attempt at doing that with the druidic theurge. If it could be done for the druid, why not for the others? Sure, it'd take away the infinite variety the Mystic Theurge has, but it'd certainly be easier to deal with and give flavor to each combo.

[Urpriest]

I'm personally an advocate of the "break apart the Theurge into a bunch of other Theurges" method, since I feel like the Arcane Hierophant was a successful attempt at doing that with the druidic theurge. If it could be done for the druid, why not for the others? Sure, it'd take away the infinite variety the Mystic Theurge has, but it'd certainly be easier to deal with and give flavor to each combo.

From a perspective of "properly incentivizing WotC writers" I agree this is the best option. Ideally, Mystic Theurge should be designed in order to merge some aspects of arcane and divine magic in a meaningful way. True Necromancer isn't really necessary because Dread Necromancer covers the concept perfectly well. I'm trying to think of a concept that really works for this sort of thing, but I don't really have a good idea of what a Mystic Theurge is supposed to do.

[Coidzor]

From a perspective of "properly incentivizing WotC writers" I agree this is the best option. Ideally, Mystic Theurge should be designed in order to merge some aspects of arcane and divine magic in a meaningful way. True Necromancer isn't really necessary because Dread Necromancer covers the concept perfectly well. I'm trying to think of a concept that really works for this sort of thing, but I don't really have a good idea of what a Mystic Theurge is supposed to do.

Yeah, the best thing I've been able to come up with is basically Rainbow Servant with gradual access to the other class's spell list, which still doesn't get as far as what they do. :/

[incarnate236]

I've always preferred the flavor of Cerebremancer to Theurge. The innate nature of Psionics meshes better in my mind than two intricate disciplines. Schism mixed with quickened spells also solves the action economy issue.

[Valluman]

I've always preferred the flavor of Cerebremancer to Theurge. The innate nature of Psionics meshes better in my mind than two intricate disciplines. Schism mixed with quickened spells also solves the action economy issue.

That poor class looks just like the Mystic Theurge, but with psionics... So I feel like it'd have the same identity crisis as the Theurge... Nice concept, though, as usual.

[Garwain]

The power of the theurge classes is not the early entry tricks, but the progression of PrC classes with rapid spell progression. It amps up these PrCs quite significantly.

I agree that you don't NEED dual 9s, but if you like bookkeeping, it's fun nonetheless.

[Zale]

While the Mystic Theurge is indeed weaker than a normal single-classed component of it, at the end of the day even a late entry MT is still a spellcaster.

Which means it isn't completely terrible. Not the best option by any means, but it's hardly the worst way you could go. You could take a half-progression PRC with terrible class features.

I personally like the Mystic Theurge. I wish it had a more interesting method of thematically combining divine and arcane magic, but I do like it.

[Segev]

Earliest entry even theoretically possible is level 4, right? It takes two skills at 6 ranks, which means you need at least 3 levels minimum to meet that prerequisite. With Precocious Apprentice, you can get away with only a single arcane caster level prior to going into it. But I think you still need 3 levels of a divine casting class to get 2nd level spells. That pushes it up to level 5 as the earliest you can get in.

Would Southern Magician or another trick enable you to treat your 2nd level arcane spell as divine, or is there some other way to get early access to a 2nd level divine spell, such that you can take your first level of MT at level 4?

Is there a way around the skill rank requirement to get in even earlier?

(If so, is there a way to cheat into Ur-Priest before level 6, despite the 8 ranks required in at least one skill?)

[Hecuba]

(If so, is there a way to cheat into Ur-Priest before level 6, despite the 8 ranks required in at least one skill?)
Iterative reincarnate shenanigans come to mind. In general, however, that is held to be shenanigans.
The Fort save requirement also remains problematic for arcane full-casters.

Edit: You might also be able to do something with Versatile Spellcaster.

[Segev]

Iterative reincarnate shenanigans come to mind. In general, however, that is held to be shenanigans.
The Fort save requirement also remains problematic for arcane full-casters.

Edit: You might also be able to do something with Versatile Spellcaster.

I suppose that works if you're only concerned with having entered at the earliest level possible. I admit I was thinking in terms of playing from level 1 onwards as much as in terms of final build, though.

[dextercorvia]

Elven Generalist Wizard1 Spell Mastery, Uncanny Forethought
Archivist 1
X+1 Versatile Spellcaster -- and spending a touch of money on copying spells

That gets you in at 4 with the fewest number of loopholes. You can use Alacritous Cogitation if the game is not using flaws.

If you are willing to go specialist, you can do it with just Metamagic School Focus and Heighten Spell. But, if you are going MT, then in my opinion, you should be maximizing versatility -- that is your schtick.

[Valluman]

You ask for opinions and people are talking optimization. @.@

[dextercorvia]

You ask for opinions and people are talking optimization. @.@

It is my opinion that Mystic Theurges should be about maximal versatility. Always having the correct spell for the situation whether it is arcane or divine. For me that is their flavor. In order to play that out in practice, it requires some optimization. Archivist instead of Cleric -- Versatile Spellcaster in order to both take advantage of the larger number of lower leveled slots and the larger number of spells known. Versatile Spellcaster also fills in the gaps in the MT's lack of features by letting you cast divine spells using arcane slots and vice versa.

By going Archivist/Wizard/MT you are basically giving up on DMM fun, missing out on a metmagic enhancing PrC, and your CL is probably going to be nerfed slighly. So, you need to make sure that you always have the perfect spell for the job.

[TypoNinja]

I like the idea of mystic theurge, I've played a couple, they are fun as hell, but in terms of "but if only" I have a couple of beefs.

First off, its the only theurge with no class features, secondly we need to steal PF's MT. You can qualify for that one at 3rd level meaning entry is 1/1/1.

MT the only theurge with no class features, but its also the easiest to qualify for, but if ease of entry is its only attraction then it really need to start immediately, not at the same level as every other PrC that actually grants cool features.

It also suffers from the fact that it won't take you to endgame. You run out of MT levels to take, and then "Now what?" It needs to be more than a 10 level PrC.

[Segev]

It also suffers from the fact that it won't take you to endgame. You run out of MT levels to take, and then "Now what?" It needs to be more than a 10 level PrC.

It does serve the purpose of filling out other theurge progressions to the end of a 20-level build, at least.