Evil gods: Why?

[JusticeZero]

Having to sort out how gods and people are supposed to interact a bit. This one is a bit of a stumper though..
What exactly do non Clerics get out of worshipping an Evil God? For that matter, why do Clerics get much out of it? What do Evil gods do other than twirl their mustaches and play with their demonic minions? Particularly the non Lawful ones.. It seems like a lot of effort to go through for a poor payoff. The power that they are playing with is all local in their respective blasted planes of misery and backstabbing.
Take the hypothetical Droch Val, Daemon God of Disease. What is their temples going to be like, and why would they have any worshippers at all? Why should Droch even care if it exists?

[Kaeso]

What exactly do non Clerics get out of worshipping an Evil God?
What do non clerics get out of worshipping a Good god?


For that matter, why do Clerics get much out of it? What do Evil gods do other than twirl their mustaches and play with their demonic minions?
Give their minions the possibility to create a world according to standards they believe in? Rewards in the afterlife?


Particularly the non Lawful ones.. It seems like a lot of effort to go through for a poor payoff.
You have to be CE yourself to worship a CE deity. Think about what a CE person would enjoy: mindless slaughter and destruction. What would a CE deity grant them in the afterlife as a reward for their actions? The possibility to be part of what is practically an endless mosh pit of sex, violence, destruction and blood. For the Chaotic Evil, that is literally heaven. You shouldn't see evil deities as the rulers of some kind of hell where the wicked are punished, but rather the rulers of "heaven for the deranged".


The power that they are playing with is all local in their respective blasted planes of misery and backstabbing.
Take the hypothetical Droch Val, Daemon God of Disease. What is their temples going to be like, and why would they have any worshippers at all? Why should Droch even care if it exists?
It would be weird if he were just the God of Disease and nothing else. Lets take Erythnull, God of Slaughter, instead. He is all about mindless slaughter and violence, something his followers enjoy in life and something they get lots and lots more of in death. They would slaughter and be slaughtered, then rise again to slaughter and be slaughtered, then rise again to have a succubus orgy, then slaughter and be slaughtered again. For you and me it sounds insane, for the Chaotic Evil any kind of order and altruism sounds insane.

In the cosmology of DnD, everyone gets what they want in the afterlife to some degree.

EDIT: Let me name a more practical example from a campaign I'm running right now. At this point in the story, the major trade city of the world has a revolt in the poor district. Thieves and gangsters rule the streets of that district to the point where the Duke's authority there is practically absent. It is a rebellion instigated by a Cleric of Erythnull. What do the non-cleric gangsters and thieves get out of this? The possibility to steal and kill to their hearts content (keep in mind that this district borders one of the most important trade routes in the land, as well as a river with a lot of trade over it. That's more than enough to loot and pillage, and if you can get divine approval while doing it, why not?).

[Valluman]

First and foremost, all gods want worshipers; being worshiped makes the god powerful and even what makes them be. Secondly, each god has a motive, regardless of alignment. What do evil gods get out or being worshiped? They gain mortal minions, potential champions, and a power source; the more worshipers you have, the more powerful you are; this is the difference between a greater deity and a lesser deity. Whether they admit it or not, most gods view mortals as ants, good or not. Gods also treat their worshipers kindly; if there was no reason to worship an evil god, they'd have no followers and lose power.

What do mortals gain out of worshiping an evil god? All worshipers want something out of worshiping their gods, even if it's just a chance to serve them. Let's look at a specific case. Let's say someone worships Tiamat; she is a goddess of greed. By worshiping her, one may hope for good fortune or to be able to come into a vast some of wealth. Why not worship Bahamut if one wants luck? Well, maybe the mortal doesn't much care for others and just wants wealth, no matter how they get it. For a more common worship, let's look at Hextor; tyrants worship him because they wish for his blessing as they concur nations and rule with iron fists. They want to be on top and rule everyone, and that's what that god offers.

Why would a god help mortals, through blessings or whatever other method? Because the mortals can further the deities agenda and maybe bring more worshipers to the flock. Let's keep on with Hextor; if he gives his blessing to a powerful tyrant who actively has his nations pay homage to their war-god of tyranny, this puts his religion into the populous and shows it's strength... Plus, that particularly god would love to see the worshipers of an opposing god wiped out.

[Erik Vale]

One of the things is, churches of evil things may be prayed in to keep bad things away, or direct them towards enemies. Churches of gods of disease would be about as full as churches of healing.

You allow evil churches to exist, if just to keep evil gods appeased. You only quash them when they get uppity.

[JusticeZero]

But do the evil gods actually deliver on much? There are a lot of nasty descriptions of the fate of incoming souls to the Evil planes. If they are being diverted to the estates of evil gods instead, it seems like it wouldn't quite be the same..

[Spore]

To summarize:
- appealing after life
- promises of great power
- an entirely mundane acolyte can still further the goals of the church.
- NPCs have own morals.


But do the evil gods actually deliver on much? There are a lot of nasty descriptions of the fate of incoming souls to the Evil planes. If they are being diverted to the estates of evil gods instead, it seems like it wouldn't quite be the same..

And to KNOW (and not just guess) those descriptions you'd have to roll particularly high on Know (Planes). On other words: The priests MAY promise you unlimited power over infidels in the otherworlds. Or when LE they would promise you high ranks in the devil army (after millenia).

[Bronk]

But do the evil gods actually deliver on much? There are a lot of nasty descriptions of the fate of incoming souls to the Evil planes. If they are being diverted to the estates of evil gods instead, it seems like it wouldn't quite be the same..

Anyone can worship any god, and anyone can give lip service to any god in a minor way, even if it's just because they're hoping to ward off bad effects by appeasing them.

Even evil gods would be able to deliver! For one thing, clerics can be up to one alignment step away from their deity on any axis, so the evil church can send their more goodly and family friendly clerics out to be their public face.

Or, their church could be very publicly evil but control the politics of the region. That would be a big incentive to worship them.

For the afterlife, they would totally go to whatever afterlife their god set up, even if they were evil, as long as their soul didn't fall under some kind of regular or extended fiendish contract. Of course, if the afterlife was promised to be some kind of eternal torture chamber, I'm sure they would be promised they would end up in charge somehow... but hey, evil!

[Vorandril]

Asking why non-clerics might worship any god is like asking why someone in the real world might follow their religion. There's a large span of reasons why. One sect of Gruumsh might worship him because they happen to be Orcs and think, "Well he's a god that happens to be an orc and willing to be on our side if we follow his dogma. That Pelor guy would just burn us for being Orc." Among the gods the good guys are as much the ones drawing battle lines as the evil; Kill the enemy or be killed yourself.

So why might Town A worship Wee Jas instead of Boccob? Maybe they like her "No bull" outlook on things. "You want power? Go get it. Magic's a good way to do that."

Try to remember that following the teachings of a god can be beneficial, even if you're not getting actively blessed.
Living in a country over-run with banditry and lords who war between themselves? Want to bring the kingdom together in unity and order?

Well frankly following Hextor's methods will certainly show results a lot sooner than Heironious. Just happens to be -easier- when the guy doing the preaching is able to literally call down the wrath of the god you're worshiping.

(Apologies if my line of thinking jumps tracks a lot. Sleepy. Bed nao.)

[Red Fel]

Let's also not forget that Evil isn't always referred to as "Evil" by its followers. They have other names for it. Names like Power. Victory. Strength. Conquest. You know, pretty words.

We've been using Hextor as an example; I'd like to come back to him. People have been using him as an illustration as "the god of tyrants," but that's not all that Hextor is. Or does.

Consider, for example, the fact that many Evil deities keep their worship secret, or private, or hidden. Hextor's church is one of the few that operates openly. And it thrives. Why do you suppose that is?

It's because it's good for people. Churches of Hextor train their congregants. Mind, body, spirit. Followers of Hextor become iron; physically fit, mentally sharp, spiritually devoted to their God of War. The Church of Hextor brings with it a strong, loyal, capable populace, and the firm iron grip of order. This is actually beneficial to society. (You know, except for the whole tyranny-and-evil thing.)

That's the point. Evil gods offer power and strength. Good gods offer selflessness and compassion. If you were an Evil person - that is, you valued power at any cost, particularly if others paid that cost - the former would appeal to you, the latter would appall you.

People don't worship Evil gods because they're Evil. They don't generally care about whether they'll be "punished" in the afterlife. The average NPC is generally uneducated about the planes, or frankly could care less. What they care about is what they're getting now. And generally, Evil brings about more immediate payoffs (at rather unpleasant costs down the road).

[Vorandril]

Let's also not forget that Evil isn't always referred to as "Evil" by its followers. They have other names for it. Names like Power. Victory. Strength. Conquest. You know, pretty words.

That's the point. Evil gods offer power and strength. Good gods offer selflessness and compassion. If you were an Evil person - that is, you valued power at any cost, particularly if others paid that cost - the former would appeal to you, the latter would appall you.

People don't worship Evil gods because they're Evil.

You win a golf clap and a hug. Thank you for phrasing what I wanted to say in a much better way. <3

[Telonius]

To take another view of it - the gods might not be all about Alignment, but merely powers that have certain moral characteristics. They're personalities to be appeased and bargained with.

Let's say you live next to the ocean. You might want to say a prayer to the (NG) god of Calm Waters to help your sailors; or say a prayer to the (CN) god of Storms, to please stay away for a bit if he wouldn't mind very much, or to the god of Sea Monsters (CE) to please stay asleep and not send a kraken after us.

[AmberVael]

People don't worship Evil gods because they're Evil. They don't generally care about whether they'll be "punished" in the afterlife. The average NPC is generally uneducated about the planes, or frankly could care less. What they care about is what they're getting now. And generally, Evil brings about more immediate payoffs (at rather unpleasant costs down the road).

And an evil god doesn't even necessarily have to punish their worshipers. If you serve your horrible master well, why shouldn't they reward you? Sure, some might not, but some may decide the extra loyalty and reputation that comes from promising a decent afterlife is well worth the investment. Evil doesn't have to be dumb and backstabbing all the time.

To continue using Hextor for an example, Hextor rules over the Scourgehold in Acheron, training a massive legion. Where the legion comes from isn't stated, but its pretty reasonable to assume that since this is his stronghold on an outer plane, this legion is comprised of his deceased followers. Its like evil valhalla- a life of battle and training under your god. Plenty of people could see that as a reward- and those that wouldn't probably wouldn't be serving Hextor in the first place, would they?

[Segev]

What do non-clerics get out of worshiping evil deities?

Reprieve from punishment/ravages of the god's domain (e.g. protection from disease by propitiating an evil disease god)
Rewards for faithful service (usually of a selfish nature, often at the expense of those who've failed/angered the god)
Power to enact the god's will, particularly when the god's will and the follower's align.
Support from the clergy

What do clerics get out of it?

Spells, obviously
More importantly, spells granted by somebody who supports (or at least won't refuse to aid) their selfish, evil goals
Validation of their own base desires
Opportunities to gain greater insight into the ways to exploit their own and others' depravity for their own gain

These aren't complete lists, but I hope they give some idea.

The nutshell version is: evil gods provide power to those who share their views and are ruthless enough to exploit the granted power successfully. Much as with good, you get rewards commensurate with your service. For evil, success at any cost (to others) is the greater criteria, which, for ruthless types who like hurting other people (or just don't care if they do) is a desirable thing.

Evil is more about tit for tat (or about "please don't hurt me and I'll do what you want") than is good. (This doesn't mean good doesn't do rewards-for-good-service, but rather that the way they go about it and the kinds of service tend to differ.)

[AMFV]

Having to sort out how gods and people are supposed to interact a bit. This one is a bit of a stumper though..
What exactly do non Clerics get out of worshipping an Evil God?

The same thing most ancient Cultures got, they give sacrifices out of fear.



For that matter, why do Clerics get much out of it?

They get to be on the winning team. They get to go to an afterlife where it fits their personal beliefs. In the Abyss if you have enough personal power you can do whatever you want, and you can use whatever means you want to attain that power, that sounds like a paradise to certain people. In Hell, you can build up your own power through manipulation and scheming. There are those who would find Heaven boring and insipid, because they themselves inherently need to be able to put other people down, because equality can be boring, because they enjoy being in power.

[The Insaniac]

Snip

To expand on this, the descriptions of the horrible afterlives for evil people tend to refer to those who end up in hell or the abyss without a patron god. In Fiendish Codex II, for example, the book mentions that sometimes souls go to hell when they should go to an evil god's afterlife. So you get aspects and minions of the gods showing up to get the souls of their followers back from the devils.

The only afterlife that I can think of that's actually described in any detail is Lolth's. And sure, that's a horrible one, but Lolth is often described as insane anyway and her worshipers are brainwashed to deny the existence of all other gods from birth. It's entirely possible that the other evil gods give an afterlife that's quite pleasant to their followers.

[Bronk]

Also it could be that an evil deity gets worshiped as part of a larger pantheon, and the idea would be that they are just one aspect of the larger whole.

Or, it could be that it is a deity with a lot of different portfolios, one of which is the one the person cares about... Some deities are listed as being evil, and controlling those portfolios in their entirety, while others (like Malar) are instead listed as covering the evil aspects of a bunch of portfolios.

[ImNotTrevor]

I might be reading into the dilemma incorrectly, but it seems like there is a belief that can be described as "Evil Gods are selfish, they won't help you." or "Evil Gods are less powerful" or "Evil Gods will obviously not care about puny mortals."

Essentially, it's a view that Evil Gods think like Skeletor.

As far as I know, they don't.

This is how I view Evil gods of the extreme alignments, and how I believe that they think about things:

CE:
Beings are measured by the strength of their arm, their ruthlessness, and their sheer power. Schemes are for the weak. True power is best displayed by destroying everything that opposes you, no matter how small or how great. The strongest are those who should command the world.
Those that follow me wish to be strong. Their faith makes me even stronger. By strengthening them, I strengthen myself. I become a leader of armies. My armies are full of only the strongest, most ruthless of warriors. As my armies march across the mortal plane, I gain yet more territory. Yet more influence. By delivering a spark of my power to those that worship me, I ensure victory to those that follow me into battle against the weak.

LE:
Only an idiot would try to conquer through brute force. The mark of true power is to conquer without the enemy every knowing that they've been conquered. An organized and carefully planned scheme will undo even the mightiest armies from the inside. Even the most righteous of Pelor's cronies has a spark of darkness within them. Tug at that string, and they will be unravelled. Tempt them until they become mine...and then destroy that contemptable church from within.
Of course, there are other ways...I can promise my followers riches. Wealth. Power. I will promise them everything they want to earn their faith...give them part of my power so that they can enact my schemes. And when they give up their souls to me? Take everything from all but the most loyal of souls. I will delegate duties to those most faithful souls. I will send my power to the mortal world so that they might enact my will and fulfill my plans for that plane. The more souls I claim for myself...the more powerful I become.


In both cases, it benefits their patterns of thinking to have clerics, and to give them little bits of their own power. Overall, it makes them more powerful to have clerics spreading their ideals. NE deities would be somewhere between these two modes of thought, and might be more selfish than these two, but their selfishness is still benefitted by having clerics to believe in them and power them through faith.

It's kinda like having a credit card that, for every 30 cents you spend, deposits a dollar into your bank account. You would use it EVERY TIME. No questions asked. I think of Gods and Faith to be somewhat like that, even if there might not be RAW for it. It just makes sense to me.

[jedipotter]

What exactly do non Clerics get out of worshipping an Evil God? For that matter, why do Clerics get much out of it? What do Evil gods do other than twirl their mustaches and play with their demonic minions? Particularly the non Lawful ones.. It seems like a lot of effort to go through for a poor payoff. The power that they are playing with is all local in their respective blasted planes of misery and backstabbing.
Take the hypothetical Droch Val, Daemon God of Disease. What is their temples going to be like, and why would they have any worshippers at all? Why should Droch even care if it exists?

To take a couple of Forgotten Realms gods as examples:

Loviatar: She attracts everyone who likes to cause pain. A lot of thugs, bullies, ruffians, bouncers and bashes. The members of the local Fight Club(see the movie), in a bit more religious ceremony. Her temples could easily fit the fight club model, centered around an arena. But you also get bankers and money lenders who likes to cause pain indirectly. And anyone who just wants to cause others pain and suffering.

Talona She gets a lot of worship out of fear. Think of people who say a prayer to her to not get poisoned or catch a disease. And the bit more twisted people that pray for strength to over come any poison or disease. And the even more twisted who pray for people they don't like to get poisoned or get a disease. Her temples fit the model of taking a bit of poison and praying for recovery.

Talos He gets the violent side of nature, but with the twist that the violence is positive. Such as ''lighting destroys a tree, but the remains provide homes for animals and bugs.'' He attracts lots of ''survival of the fittest'' types. Lots of folk worship out of fear, praying that his storms don't destroy their crops, homes and family. And some wish for storms on others. He also gets the rebels, the super violent and destructive ones.

[Leviting]

If you go slightly less evil, but stay lawful, you get Acheron, an afterlife where you fight, and fight, and fight, and fight some more. If you were, say, a fighter or blackguard, why wouldn't you want that? You get to do what you enjoyed in life, but for eternity!

[Necroticplague]

But do the evil gods actually deliver on much? There are a lot of nasty descriptions of the fate of incoming souls to the Evil planes. If they are being diverted to the estates of evil gods instead, it seems like it wouldn't quite be the same..

Well, BOVD actually has rules for sacrificing things to evil gods. Any worshiper can do this. So arguably, Evil gods are actually more willing to pay out than Good ones. And one of the things about worshiping evil gods is that you hope you can short-cut some of that process. Such up to Asmodeus and he might let you go straight to Impdom, skipping the annoying "mindless slavering shock-trooper" phase of being a devil. Plus, there is multiple fates the evil. If they are just generally evil, they go to the properly-aligned plane. However, by worshipping a god, they go to their domain instead, which can reasonably be more pleasant.

[Vorandril]

Additionally, it's good to remember that a cleric isn't granted some portion of their god's power, they draw their power from their faith and the cosmic "stuff" of existence. Ergo how you can have clerics who worship an ideal instead of a god. Or one of the Archdukes of Baator. The Devils gain power by having worshipers in this case and their worshipers are united by supporting the Devil's methods/ideals.

As for why an evil patron would bother rewarding loyalty?

Minions are a powerful tool. And every minion you win to your side is one that isn't part of your rival's retinue.

[Andreaz]

As for why an evil patron would bother rewarding loyalty?Because "Evil" does not mean "ungratefully retarded"? Unless you are talking about a god whose core concepts include betrayal you can expect evil gods to reward loyal servants.

Because, you know, it's the smart thing to do.

[AMFV]

Because "Evil" does not mean "ungratefully retarded"? Unless you are talking about a god whose core concepts include betrayal you can expect evil gods to reward loyal servants.

Because, you know, it's the smart thing to do.

And even a God of Betrayal will still use you and help you while you're still useful.

[Doug Lampert]

Having to sort out how gods and people are supposed to interact a bit. This one is a bit of a stumper though..
What exactly do non Clerics get out of worshipping an Evil God? For that matter, why do Clerics get much out of it? What do Evil gods do other than twirl their mustaches and play with their demonic minions? Particularly the non Lawful ones.."

Orcs don't think that having the biggest and baddest guy run things and do whatever he wants is WRONG, that's RIGHT AND PROPER. That there's a bunch of people who call themselves "Good" who disagree is irrelevant. Those people are suckers who do stupid things for stupid reasons. The spell they call "Detect Good" you call "Detect Stupid".

They worship a CE god because it is right and proper to worship and obey something so obviously stronger than you are, and because the god's teachings are right and proper and he helps orcs engage in right and proper behavior.


"It seems like a lot of effort to go through for a poor payoff. The power that they are playing with is all local in their respective blasted planes of misery and backstabbing.
Take the hypothetical Droch Val, Daemon God of Disease. What is their temples going to be like, and why would they have any worshippers at all? Why should Droch even care if it exists?

As others have pointed out, the Daemon God of Disease can curse your enemies with disease while protecting your people from it. I'm not seeing a problem for an evil or even neutral character with "why worship that". Your children DON'T die screaming in a fever, and you don't even have to pay a cleric to heal them since they never got sick in the first place. What's not to like? (Other than the part where a bunch of strangers you probably wouldn't like if you met them have to watch their children die screaming, and even that just means more loot for your tribe.)

[jedipotter]

As for why an evil patron would bother rewarding loyalty?



An evil patron, like a god, can't do it alone. If they could be all supreme and evil, they would. But it comes down to the fact that they need the little guys.

Money makes a good analogy: When your evil worshiper, say has the princess kidnapped and killed, he gives the god 10,000 gold coins in credit. But that sort of thing does not happen every day. Every time a dwarf thug hurts someone ''who was in his way'' gets the god like one copper coin. Not much....but a thousand thugs worldwide, almost every hour....starts to add up.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It has been a while but I think that there is two ways to end up in the abyss/hell/whatever.

Not worship a god (and be evil) and making a deal with a devil/demon/whatever.

If you are evil in D&D and worship a god, you still go to heaven when you die. Just not the heaven everyone else goes to.

You go to your god's domain and go about your merry little way.

Some gods may differ but I think those are the general guidelines.

So the punishment isn't for being evil but for being an evil atheist or selling your soul.

[AMFV]

It has been a while but I think that there is two ways to end up in the abyss/hell/whatever.

Not worship a god (and be evil) and making a deal with a devil/demon/whatever.

If you are evil in D&D and worship a god, you still go to heaven when you die. Just not the heaven everyone else goes to.

You go to your god's domain and go about your merry little way.

Some gods may differ but I think those are the general guidelines.

So the punishment isn't for being evil but for being an evil atheist or selling your soul.

You are mistaken, depending on which setting you're referring to.

[Andreaz]

Depends on the setting. Canon D&D goes by faith. Arton is random, the only way to pick an afterlife is by being personally picked by the god that reigns over it.

[tomandtish]

People can even make deals with deities they don't worship. Take the lich necromancer Szass Tam. He made a deal with Bane for enough knowledge and power to win his bid to take over Thay. He won the war (although his real goal failed in the end) and Bane gets his soul in 1000 years.

At worst (to his mind), Szass still has 1000 years of ruling Thay before bad things happen. And there's always the possibility that Bane will choose to use him as the valuable resource he actually is. At best? Well, a thousand years is a long time to figure a way out of the deal. If his original plan had worked after all, he'd have destroyed everything except himself anyway (including the gods) and started a new order. And he has 1000 years to try again...

So remember, even with deities that you might expect bad things from in the end, that doesn't mean that you actually expect to have to PAY, now does it?

(Note: The management disavows all responsibility for any thoughts of hubris this may have created in you. Gamble with your soul at your own risk).

[Vogonjeltz]

And to KNOW (and not just guess) those descriptions you'd have to roll particularly high on Know (Planes). On other words: The priests MAY promise you unlimited power over infidels in the otherworlds. Or when LE they would promise you high ranks in the devil army (after millenia).

This is it. We as gamers know the details of the D&D universe, but the inhabitants of that universe don't know jack. They get promised otherworldly power from the Clerics of Evil deities, whereas the truth is much more unpleasant. Some inhabitants are so egotistical that they would still worship those Evil deities because the NPCs think that they are something special who won't get turned into so much gruel. And sometimes, sometimes, it happens. But usually not. Not even the Clerics always know the truth.

For others, it's just appealing to their personality. People worship Kord for the same reasons Conan worshipped Krom. They just happen to share similar attitudes towards existence as that particular deity.

So there are alot of reasons that have nothing to do with the raw game mechanics. (Although characters worshipping particular deities/pantheons could have very important story implications, and also matter in terms of how they interact with other characters, or how others view them.)

[GnomeGninjas]

There are a lot of nasty descriptions of the fate of incoming souls to the Evil planes.

That's just celestial propaganda, evil clerics spread similar lies about Good planes. (Not WoTC's explanation, but it makes sense to me.)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

You are mistaken, depending on which setting you're referring to.

So I'm not mistaken, just might be mistaken.

The best kind of mistaken.

[AMFV]

This is it. We as gamers know the details of the D&D universe, but the inhabitants of that universe don't know jack. They get promised otherworldly power from the Clerics of Evil deities, whereas the truth is much more unpleasant. Some inhabitants are so egotistical that they would still worship those Evil deities because the NPCs think that they are something special who won't get turned into so much gruel. And sometimes, sometimes, it happens. But usually not. Not even the Clerics always know the truth.

For others, it's just appealing to their personality. People worship Kord for the same reasons Conan worshipped Krom. They just happen to share similar attitudes towards existence as that particular deity.

So there are alot of reasons that have nothing to do with the raw game mechanics. (Although characters worshipping particular deities/pantheons could have very important story implications, and also matter in terms of how they interact with other characters, or how others view them.)

Lots of people have Knowledge (Religion) or Knowledge (Planes). Not all worshipers of Evil Gods are tricked into it. As I pointed out in Hell you can oppress; in Heaven you can't. So somebody who wants to oppress people is never going to be happy there.


So I'm not mistaken, just might be mistaken.

The best kind of mistaken.

Well you are both mistaken and not, depending on your setting. Both Greyhawk and FR don't work that way. In Ravenloft everybody is screwed, and I don't know how Dragonlance works, it's possible it works that way.

[Vorandril]

Because "Evil" does not mean "ungratefully retarded"? Unless you are talking about a god whose core concepts include betrayal you can expect evil gods to reward loyal servants.

Because, you know, it's the smart thing to do.

Apologies, I'd been putting the question out rhetorically because the rest of my post had been explaining the answer.
Guess I wasn't being clear enough.

[jedipotter]

This is it. We as gamers know the details of the D&D universe, but the inhabitants of that universe don't know jack.

There is kinda no way for them not to know. Just take a typical world with roughly 10,000 years of history. Even if only one person learned the details a year, that is a lot of people. And even if just a quarter of them wrote what they found out down, that would still be 2,500 books. And so on. So if your D&D world is in the Middle Ages, there should be at least 25 books with the details around. And remember to not just think about humans, the elven library has books centuries old, as does the dwarven one. And the dragon ones.

And then with magic such as divinations, summonings, planewalkers and gods you can talk too...the information would not be unknown. This is the type of information that spreads like wildfire.

[atemu1234]

There is kinda no way for them not to know. Just take a typical world with roughly 10,000 years of history. Even if only one person learned the details a year, that is a lot of people. And even if just a quarter of them wrote what they found out down, that would still be 2,500 books. And so on. So if your D&D world is in the Middle Ages, there should be at least 25 books with the details around. And remember to not just think about humans, the elven library has books centuries old, as does the dwarven one. And the dragon ones.

And then with magic such as divinations, summonings, planewalkers and gods you can talk too...the information would not be unknown. This is the type of information that spreads like wildfire.

True, but elves and dwarves (their civilizations, at least) would hoard the knowledge like a Great Wyrm Red Dragon hoards platinum. Odds are it's not widely known, or is only in scholarly circles.

Then there's the misinformation spread by those actively trying to undermine the truth. Why? So that they or their gods keep getting souls. Typically only the highest members of an order know that their order is evil, and those nearer the bottom are neutral or even good, unknowing of what they're doing by accident. Those people at the top are powerful, and wouldn't want their followers getting pamphlets saying "Bahamut and You" or "Ten easy ways to spot a secret evil society".

[Vogonjeltz]

There is kinda no way for them not to know. Just take a typical world with roughly 10,000 years of history. Even if only one person learned the details a year, that is a lot of people. And even if just a quarter of them wrote what they found out down, that would still be 2,500 books. And so on. So if your D&D world is in the Middle Ages, there should be at least 25 books with the details around. And remember to not just think about humans, the elven library has books centuries old, as does the dwarven one. And the dragon ones.

And then with magic such as divinations, summonings, planewalkers and gods you can talk too...the information would not be unknown. This is the type of information that spreads like wildfire.

The demographics of D&D are such that this doesn't pan out.

First, there's no actual way to confirm what occurs in the afterlife for those who can't plane shift, until it is too late. That requires a 9th level+ wizard or the like.

People with any adventurer levels (wizard for example) make up a distinct minority of the population, and those with wizard levels an even tinier percentage. Someone with 9+ levels of wizard and the plane shift spell and the appropriate key(s)? We are talking maybe 1 in a million people at any given time.

Accurate knowledge of the after lives is exceedingly rare, the vast majority of the population being ignorant peasants. Combined with that, it's easy for evil clerics or religions to pull the wool over their eyes.

[Shinken]

The demographics of D&D are such that this doesn't pan out.

First, there's no actual way to confirm what occurs in the afterlife for those who can't plane shift, until it is too late. That requires a 9th level+ wizard or the like.
Speak With the Dead: "Is the afterlife cool?"

[AMFV]

Speak With the Dead: "Is the afterlife cool?"

I think you'd only speak to corpses with that so you'd only get the knowledge they had while they were still in their physical bodies.

[White Blade]

So, as far as afterlives if you're Lawful Evil, you have two choices - Wind up in the pits of hell as an ugly ooze monster for your (most likely brief) existence or you can sign up for a station with the Lawful Evil deities.

Basically: Worshipping an Evil God is a plea bargain.

[Shinken]

I think you'd only speak to corpses with that so you'd only get the knowledge they had while they were still in their physical bodies.

Augury: "Is the afterlife cool?"

[Qwertystop]

I saw an article from a while ago linked a week or two back - something along the lines of "every non-god-specific aligned afterlife is a world that works how the alignment would expect it to work." So the generic Lawful Evil, which seems like a pretty horrible place? Any power you get, you get by persisting, you get by your own strengths. The strong rule over the weak in a strictly defined hierarchy. It might not be good for people on the bottom - but the sort of people who go there, even if they don't like it, will feel at their core that that's how it's supposed to be, that if they can't get past the bottom then that must be where they should be. It's not pleasant, but any of the other afterlives would feel wrong on a deeper level - a Chaotic Good afterlife might be happier for the Lawful Evil person at first, but they'd keep feeling that everything was just skewed out of how it should be, with people not organizing themselves into hierarchies or being selfish.

[Vogonjeltz]

Augury: "Is the afterlife cool?"

Augury tells you if an action will result in good or I'll. it's not a magic 8 ball for knowledge.

[Erik Vale]

There is kinda no way for them not to know. Just take a typical world with roughly 10,000 years of history. Even if only one person learned the details a year, that is a lot of people. And even if just a quarter of them wrote what they found out down, that would still be 2,500 books. And so on. So if your D&D world is in the Middle Ages, there should be at least 25 books with the details around. And remember to not just think about humans, the elven library has books centuries old, as does the dwarven one. And the dragon ones.

And then with magic such as divinations, summonings, planewalkers and gods you can talk too...the information would not be unknown. This is the type of information that spreads like wildfire.

A few things about this medieval world.
Most people can't actually read. [Yes, rules say otherwise, but let's sidestep that for now]
Books are expensive, and most commoners need there money to, you know, live, despite how easy it is to be rolling in gold at level 1 according to the rules...
Disinformation works really well, and unlike the current time, there's less actual information out there, which makes things easier. For example as to how it works in even the modern day, the Vaccine and Climate Change debates. Everyone actually working in the field relevent fields [barring the people taking money to say otherwise.] agree to [X], but vast numbers of people still believe in [Y], which is the polar opposite of [X].

[Erik Vale]

Augury tells you if an action will result in good or I'll. it's not a magic 8 ball for knowledge.

Also, it only reads a short time into the future. So assuming it says your afterlife is good, you've got bigger fish to worry about.

[jedipotter]

The demographics of D&D are such that this doesn't pan out.

.

Well, your talking about NPC demographics. The PC demographics add much more to the mix. Every generation has, at least, a couple ''PC's'' running around. And PC's far exceed the low, low, low levels of the whole world.

And the ''demographics'' take a second seat to the balanced encounter of an adventure. If the DM wants a temple full of evil clerics that are a challenge to a group of 15th level characters, then the demographics that say all the clerics in the area must be zero level nobodies gets tossed out the window.

And settings like the Forgotten Realms really ignore the demographics. Things like the War Wizards or Red Wizards, just ignore the demographic that says ''this area only has two wizards that can cast cantrips''. And even with 3E trying to retcon the demographics from 2E, the Realms still has way, way, way too many name level(higher then 9th level) characters.

[Shinken]

Augury tells you if an action will result in good or I'll. it's not a magic 8 ball for knowledge.

Augury: "Will killing myself result in going to a cool afterlife?"

[Graypairofsocks]

It's entirely possible that the other evil gods give an afterlife that's quite pleasant to their followers.

In the "Fiendish Codex II" it is mentioned that there is a doorway/gate/portal/whatever(It is late and I don't remember the correct term) to the kobold afterlife(for the ones who worship Kurtulmak at least) in Baator, it also says that they think of their kobold afterlife as a paradise.

[ArqArturo]

And to KNOW (and not just guess) those descriptions you'd have to roll particularly high on Know (Planes). On other words: The priests MAY promise you unlimited power over infidels in the otherworlds. Or when LE they would promise you high ranks in the devil army (after millenia).

Others promote a sucky life, wether you want it or not.

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Sithrak+is+best+god.+From+the+epic+www.oglaf.com+T ags+are+actual_447e85_4736972.jpg

[1eGuy]

Having to sort out how gods and people are supposed to interact a bit. This one is a bit of a stumper though..
What exactly do non Clerics get out of worshipping an Evil God? For that matter, why do Clerics get much out of it? What do Evil gods do other than twirl their mustaches and play with their demonic minions? Particularly the non Lawful ones.. It seems like a lot of effort to go through for a poor payoff. The power that they are playing with is all local in their respective blasted planes of misery and backstabbing.
Take the hypothetical Droch Val, Daemon God of Disease. What is their temples going to be like, and why would they have any worshippers at all? Why should Droch even care if it exists?The Demon God of Disease has secret agents who spread disease and clerics who offer protection from those diseases for suitable sacrifices from the laity. Naturally, the god's diseases are resistant to normal cure disease from other clerics but melt away like a "miracle" when his own clerics perform their spells on victims.

The non-clerics are driven by fear for their own skins into more and more questionable actions to protect themselves by buying the clergy's "blessings", eventually becoming tools of evil and spreading its influence as well as the suffering and pain which delight the Demon and perhaps feed him dark energy for his ongoing battle with the Good god Vacinatia.

[atemu1234]

Clerics get evil powers from worshiping evil gods. They can be sadistic, they can be evil. That's the benefit they get. And evil gods are literally forces of evil. They want to defeat good. They're enemies of the good gods in most campaign settings, actively or through their minions.

[pwykersotz]

Remember, evil deities need worship to survive. So they're going to have an incentive plan to keep that worship coming. In your example of a dark god of disease, he would probably offer immunity to a disease in exchange for being its carrier. Or maybe just delayed effects. That way the evil person gets the sadistic pleasure of wreaking havoc on the prime. The god spreads their portfolio and gets worship (often deities that are believed to have power over a situation are worshipped when that situation arises, y'know, appeasement and all), and everyone is happy. Or at least as happy as the dark god wants them.

[AMFV]

Clerics get evil powers from worshiping evil gods. They can be sadistic, they can be evil. That's the benefit they get. And evil gods are literally forces of evil. They want to defeat good. They're enemies of the good gods in most campaign settings, actively or through their minions.

It's like I said there's a winning side and a losing side. They want to be on the winning side.

[Tvtyrant]

Also in some settings the gods cannot physically interact with the people of the planet. There may be a broken glass theory where they increase the number of evil people by giving some of them the power to hurt those people.

[AMFV]

Also in some settings the gods cannot physically interact with the people of the planet. There may be a broken glass theory where they increase the number of evil people by giving some of them the power to hurt those people.

What setting is this? This sounds like it'd be interesting to read about.

[Phelix-Mu]

Part of the problem with understanding the appeal of evil gods is a metagame one. Out-of-game, optimization pretty much allows one to bend the rules so severely that they might as well not exist. But, in-world, lots of people are bound by their small lives of non-optimization and failure to understand that WotC Ao has not set up the mechanics very well. Power typically requires effort, training, or skill/talent.

Or you can be evil. Evil is, fluff-wise, faster, better, stronger, because while the goody two-shoes are considering consequences and the neutral people check their balance scales, the evil people steal their presents, seduce their women, eat their babies, and then take a four hour lunch break while filling in applications to work at some other company. Evil makes it's own rules about what is acceptable, and those rules generally start with "I'm awesome" and "everyone else needs to see point #1 or go eat ground glass." Evil gods are the promoters of evil doctrines, and welcome worshipers that follow those doctrines.

As to the daemon god of disease, part of disease is fear (of getting it), exclusion/aberration, and undermining what is true/good/wholesome by eating away at it in a way that has nothing to do with virtue/vice (disease). Basically, disease causes indiscriminate suffering to all, rich and poor, good and bad. This has appeal to those that believe such distinctions are meaningless and that the endless suffering inherent to all lifeforms is something to revel in. Disease helps spread that suffering, and it has a certain blasphemous beauty by which the pure becomes less so (at least visibly), the flesh is corrupted by infection, and the hope inherent to life gives into the despair of endless pain and suffering (either ending in the release of death, or persisting endlessly in non-terminal cases). It's a weapon to use against others ("bow before my god or get the plague"), it's a curse disguised as a promise ("worship me and I will protect you from the plague"), and it's a power that exists beyond normal agency (and thus particularly potent if given to clerics to wield...remember, magic isn't omnipresent in the minds/lives of in-game people as it is in the minds of players).

EDIT: Upon reading more of the posts, part of the reason that evil souls get screwed is because evil doesn't necessarily follow the normal reward structure that our irl meritocratic societies might recognize. Your evil god could reward you, if it suits them. Or they could turn you into their inanimate ottoman, complete with tongue for the licking of their boots. Why? EVIL GOD. Gods epitomize what they represent, and while they may/may not need worshipers, they definitely are portrayed to act with significant detachment, such that the logic of their behavior is usually subordinate to their incarnation of their portfolio.

Also, a devoted evil cleric might welcome the chance to be their god's ottoman. Logic also doesn't apply well to matters of faith or the concept of what is a desirable reward, and what's not. Also, the souls of evil clerics probably fair a bit better than standard evil souls, though this is highly subjective.

DOUBLE EDIT: Another reason that evil souls seem to get screwed is that the degree to which the souls of the good also get screwed. Being good and dead is still being dead, and being dead means that your soul goes to a place where your free-will is more of a footnote, where your personality is basically going to disappear, and where you are ultimately going to get absorbed into a god or into the fabric of the plane on which you reside. This happens to good people too. Difference is is that good people are usually portrayed as enjoying it (their final reward) and evil people are given a punishment (though, as noted, evil people would despise the good afterlife, so the Lower Planes are the lesser of two evils to them).

[Hecuba]

In Ravenloft everybody is screwed, and I don't know how Dragonlance works, it's possible it works that way.

In Dragonlance the dead leave in the River of Souls and continue on to other worlds/campaign settings (though they can hang around for a bit if they like).

Before you leave, Chemosh gets one more chance to tempt you into undeath, unless another deity has grounds to intercede.

The holy\unholy vows of clerics, knights, and paladins in good standing generally constitute such grounds for their patrons.
Breaking such vows without penance can also qualify for a deity opposed to their patron1.

If a deity does intercede, they can:

You around for their use in some fashion
Prevent Chemosh's last temptation
Work against another involved deity's intercession


This all assumes, of course, that you are not dying in the time frame during which Takhisis had stolen the world.
If you are dying in that period, then your soul becomes Takhisis's enthralled, unliviing mind-slave.
You then go around leaching what magic you can find for her so that she can nurse herself back to health following the strain of stealing the world.



As to why you would give an evil deity grounds to intercede in your exit, there are many:

You can fear the loss of self: if you leave, you are going on to live other lives. Some people might not like the loss of self through reincarnation.
They can lie: Big T & co. might convince you that there is nothingness beyond.
You want power. Krell didn't like repeatedly being tortured to death by Zeboim. But after she got bored and decided to make him a Death Knight (expecting him to hate it like Soth), he really liked the perks. Heck, he was disappointed when Chemosh couldn't arrange for him to sign up again after Mina de-deaded him.
You're a co-dependent fanatic worshiper. If you prove yourself powerful and useful enough, the patron might keep you around.2


1This may itself require the deity to have some form of standing: cf. the dieing curse of Lord Soth's wife, Ausric Krell's murder of Zeboim's son. It is unclear, however, if this is a requirement of intercession in general or, more narrowly, one of the requirements for a deity to create a Death Knight.
2So in that sense, it can work the in the manner described by SpawnOfMorbo if the deity sees some value in the arrangement.

[Vorandril]

As an additional way to justify things in the afterlife of an evil soul a lot of it will depend on which plane your soul is bound towards.
If you go to Baator then yeah, Joe the LE blacksmith of Sucksville is likely just going to be a soul used as currency or a snack. But if you were Lawful Evil then that happens whether you worshiped a god or not. But by worshiping a god appropriate to your particular disposition then you're definitely not doing anything to hurt your chances. AND the guy preaching to you might even believe himself that worshiping Devils does help you in the afterlife. That's the thing about faith as a concept. It's a thing that you believe to be.
For the purposes of this example though we'll continue with going to the 9 hells. As the Lawful Evil plane your cosmicly determined position on the pecking order is more likely to reward a soul based on their merits. Not just of how well they embodied the (un)ethical ideals of the alignment the plane represents, but also how capable they are.

A 15th level PC is pretty much Chuck Norris, and so Lawful Evil Chuck is quite likely to materialize in Baator as they were in life. Maybe, if they were accomplished enough, as a Fiendish version of their living race. Because a God may be able to influence what happens to a soul, but as I understand it the fate of a soul is largely determined by the Plane itself.

Now getting back to more reasons for why to bother having evil gods-

Look at the game itself. You have planes for every alignment, creatures native to those places that don't just follow the tenets of that outlook but are physically made of the same "stuff". An Angel doesn't BELIEVE in truth and justice, it is even physically built of it.
It's not much of a stretch to say that because so much else of the cosmology is built around balance, the very existence of good gods breeds the necessity for evil ones. You could build an entire setting around how the Cosmology itself is sentient and REQUIRES this balance to keep itself stable. That would actually be kinda cool...

[Gavinfoxx]

EVERY god offers a paradise to their devoted, loyal, and effective followers. Even the evil ones.

[Tvtyrant]

Except Tiamat, who sells her petitioners to the devils. Abashai, you have nothing to lose but your chains!

[AMFV]

Except Tiamat, who sells her petitioners to the devils. Abashai, you have nothing to lose but your chains!

Which is why you make yourself too powerful to sell.

[...]

What do mortals gain out of worshiping an evil god? All worshipers want something out of worshiping their gods, even if it's just a chance to serve them.

It reminds me of a quote in MoTP which says that if you fail Wee Jas's unpassable magic test, you get killed by her, which some people consider to be a real honor (no joke here, it's in the desc. of the 4th layer of Acheron). This may mean that worship is exactly what it is; worship.

[IllogicalBlox]

Well, my warlord worships the Raven Queen (neutral, not evil, admittedly), but from this he gets a sense of purpose, that he is doing something constructive.

[Phelix-Mu]

It reminds me of a quote in MoTP which says that if you fail Wee Jas's unpassable magic test, you get killed by her, which some people consider to be a real honor (no joke here, it's in the desc. of the 4th layer of Acheron). This may mean that worship is exactly what it is; worship.

Hey, Wee Jas is pretty awesome, and the people that worship her are pretty diehard for magic and that sort of thing. My favorite part of the description is that she spends her spare time wandering the black ice sheet of Ocanthus, peering into the ice in an effort to discover secrets long since forgotten, trapped in the ice. Anyone that is up for futile scavenger hunt in the middle of the razor ice storm is a pretty cool person in my mind.

One thing to recognize, as well, is that most of everyone in the typical setting is just as troubled by death as people irl (and possibly more so, since the average commoner has much less security than irl people typically have). So most people are a sucker for any kind of pitch that might give them some kind of image of what awaits in the scary beyond. If it fits with one's personal ethos, then why not worship? The simple truth is that life is great, and the afterlife is not life. Even paradise isn't really ideal, and even if you make it to be a celestial/fiend of some kind, you are more than likely getting bossed around, licking someone else' boots, or running errands for the rest of eternity. Not ideal.

It's like an athlete's dream of getting into a professional league; very unlikely, given the statistics, but does that mean one shouldn't enjoy a bit of basketball/whatever in the meantime? And even when you do get into the big leagues, it's still basically a job, and not an easy one at that. So maybe it's the journey and not the destination that is the best part of a dream.

[Psyren]

This makes more sense if you go with the Greyhawk afterlife (go to the plane matching your alignment) rather than the Faerun afterlife (go to your deity's home plane.) Thus you can be, for example, a LN worshiper of Hextor and end up in Mechanus (not terrible), as opposed to a LN worshiper of Bane who still ends up in the Barrens of Doom and Despair (pretty terrible.)

Now, it's worth noting of course that serving someone like Hextor and avoiding evil is very hard - but at least it's not impossible, and the reward of avoiding Acheron/Baator is certainly worth the struggle.

[Phelix-Mu]

Though the perpetual Stepford existence of Mechanus is also kind of repulsive in its own way.

The main thing about the afterlife is that it's not like Being Alive, Part 2. It's very different. That's why all of a person's coolness, and even a good bit of their memories and personality, all go poof (generally speaking). That was stuff connected to your life. Your life is over. Welcome to the afterlife.

[Psyren]

Though the perpetual Stepford existence of Mechanus is also kind of repulsive in its own way.

The main thing about the afterlife is that it's not like Being Alive, Part 2. It's very different. That's why all of a person's coolness, and even a good bit of their memories and personality, all go poof (generally speaking). That was stuff connected to your life. Your life is over. Welcome to the afterlife.

One's approach to this largely depends on one's philosophy. Is the afterlife bizarre, a mode of existence where even the most chaotic planes fit seamlessly into the cosmic lattice, and where you're unlikely to ever again meet anyone who does not share your alignment? Or is life itself the aberration, a brief bubble of self-determination in an otherwise rigidly ordered cosmos? Is it perhaps the brevity of life that lends it its true beauty?

Regardless of your stance though, I think you're mistaken on one point - just because you slowly lose your ties to the material plane (regardless of how that happens, benevolently or horrifically) does not truly mean you "lose all your coolness." Per Complete Divine, some souls are allowed to keep these memories and other defining characteristics, at least for a time, primarily so they can advise the living who ask for help (e.g. via Contact Other Plane or Commune.) No one would understand this necessity better than Mechanus, because such spells would not exist otherwise.

[Elderand]

Per Complete Divine, some souls are allowed to keep these memories and other defining characteristics, at least for a time, primarily so they can advise the living who ask for help (e.g. via Contact Other Plane or Commune.)

Welcome to the afterlife, if you were a particularly impressive individual, you just might make it as a glorified info booth !

[Psyren]

Welcome to the afterlife, if you were a particularly impressive individual, you just might make it as a glorified info booth !

Think about it - would you rather they get directly involved? If they did, what would be the point of living adventurers?

[...]

Though the perpetual Stepford existence of Mechanus is also kind of repulsive in its own way.

The main thing about the afterlife is that it's not like Being Alive, Part 2. It's very different. That's why all of a person's coolness, and even a good bit of their memories and personality, all go poof (generally speaking). That was stuff connected to your life. Your life is over. Welcome to the afterlife.

You know, if you put the "personality traits going away" and the controlled, regimented, literally clockwork state of Mechanus together, you get something very creepy.

[Red Fel]

Think about it - would you rather they get directly involved? If they did, what would be the point of living adventurers?

More accurately, why would they want to get involved?

Think about it. In life, you were an LE tyrant. You conquered villages, towns, kingdoms, eventually a continent. You created order from shore to shore, amassed armies, power, and real estate, created a code of laws so comprehensive that even those who succeed you will be hard-pressed to do anything but what you would have wanted. In short, you created a tyranny so pervasive that your will can still be felt long after your death. Now you find yourself in a place where you can do even more. You're not just spreading your authority across a single continent; if you can achieve, grow, and overcome, you can spread your authority across the planes. You can be a name feared not only for generations, but for eons to come. Why would you want to abandon that?

Alternatively: In life, you were a NG Druid. You took pleasure in your grove, and the living things therein, but when the world was threatened, you took up arms against a greater evil. In time, you returned to your garden and your simple life, and made a small corner of the closest thing to paradise that can be imagined on the Material Plane. Now you're in a real paradise - in many ways, the Platonic Ideal of pristine, untouched, natural beauty and abundance, surrounded by the warmth and love of nature, suffused with its being. You rise with the sun, bathe in the rivers, run with the wolves, and bed down in the softest grass. The trees share the knowledge of millennia, the beasts share a companionship you never knew among the "civilized" races, and the land itself calls to you, welcomes you home. Why would you ever want to depart this paradise, even for a moment? Certainly, others may seek you out for your wisdom, and you will share it willingly. But you want to remain here, and when the time comes, you want to become one with the land, the seas, and the skies of this place, live forever in natural peace and beauty.

Alternatively: In life, you were a LN bureaucrat. You lived for rules. A place for everything, and everything in its place. You served six different masters in your day, and ensured the success of each for as long as they would heed your counsel. You saw shipping routes made more efficient, witnessed the emergence of stable and successful economies, organized cities and kingdoms into boroughs and sectors, according to their citizens and industries, and helped to codify laws that maintained the stable forward-moving momentum of the land. When you died, you came to a place that embodied your ideals - every worker, a cog in motion, every mind contributing to the whole, not a piece out of place, not a foot out of step. There were no criminals to punish, because everyone did as required; no salary needed to be paid, for the work was its own reward. This was the place of perfect order, stability, and consistency. You were already a part of its machinations, long before your death.

And so forth. The afterlives aren't really a reward or a punishment (with the exception of the ones which are explicitly punitive); they're simply the culmination of a deserving person's desires, the manifestation of their deepest personal philosophies. If you lived for violence and gore, you will find yourself in a place where every day is an adrenaline rush, and every night a war for survival; if you lived to feel the freedom of the wind in your hair, you will awaken in a land of adventure and excitement, without anything tying you down or holding you back. It's not about rewarding you with a blissful descent into non-sapience, but about putting you in the place where you truly belong, in such a way that as you fade into the plane itself, you do so in an entirely expected and welcomed fashion.

[Sartharina]

Some lawful evil people are even happy to be Slaves to their masters, with all the indignities that entails: The wonders of the world were built on the backs of slaves. The greatest empires of the ancient world were powered by slave labor. Being a slave may give you a miserable life, and your name will not be remembered - but you would be an instrumental part of creating the greatest things standing in the world. Some people like that sort of 'immortality'. "Yes, I may be cannon fodder - but it's people like me that make our army the greatest, strongest, and most ruthless in the world."

As for Chaotic Evil people - There seem to be two types - the "Rise to the Top in any way you can!" brutal anarchists who enjoy the idea of 'any power I attain is MINE, and I EARN what I have - And those who have more than me have earned it too, so I can respect them: If they can stop me from taking it from them!", and the other are the selfish hedonists who are all celebrating and indulging their most base and depraved desiress because Party Vrock is in the House Tonight, and everybody's gonna have a good time. Except those who end up as the pinatas. Unless they're into that sort of thing, get shots at turnabout, or decide "Screw this, not me. I'm merging with the plane now"

[ORione]

Others promote a sucky life, wether you want it or not.

snipped

That stuff's just teen poetry.

[Psyren]

Some lawful evil people are even happy to be Slaves to their masters, with all the indignities that entails: The wonders of the world were built on the backs of slaves. The greatest empires of the ancient world were powered by slave labor. Being a slave may give you a miserable life, and your name will not be remembered - but you would be an instrumental part of creating the greatest things standing in the world. Some people like that sort of 'immortality'. "Yes, I may be cannon fodder - but it's people like me that make our army the greatest, strongest, and most ruthless in the world."

To add to this - LE people respect strength above all other virtues, because Might Makes Right. If a LE god or archfiend holds such a lofty title, logically it must be because they have the strength to hold it, or they would have been toppled long since.

Thus, a truly LE person would approach this situation with one of two motivations in mind - either (a) they really are too strong to challenge/defy, therefore doing so would be a foolish waste of resources when you can instead be a trusted lieutenant; or (b) they are too strong to challenge/defy at the moment, but if you are to have any hope of supplanting them, you need to understand their strengths and weaknesses inside and out, and the best way to do that is by getting close to them. In both scenarios, the logical solution is to enlist and serve.

[...]

To add to this - LE people respect strength above all other virtues, because Might Makes Right. If a LE god or archfiend holds such a lofty title, logically it must be because they have the strength to hold it, or they would have been toppled long since.

Thus, a truly LE person would approach this situation with one of two motivations in mind - either (a) they really are too strong to challenge/defy, therefore doing so would be a foolish waste of resources when you can instead be a trusted lieutenant; or (b) they are too strong to challenge/defy at the moment, but if you are to have any hope of supplanting them, you need to understand their strengths and weaknesses inside and out, and the best way to do that is by getting close to them. In both scenarios, the logical solution is to enlist and serve.

You forgot the race (c) they are too strong for anyone else to challenge, but you might just win. This usually happens when the person is cocky or after a lot of (b).

[AMFV]

You forgot the race (c) they are too strong for anyone else to challenge, but you might just win. This usually happens when the person is cocky or after a lot of (b).

Well that's more of a chaotic stance. A lawful person tends to want the odds firmly on their side and isn't going to simply trust to chance. So (C) is not a very likely option, and most likely not one that they'd perceive as an option.

[Vogonjeltz]

Augury: "Will killing myself result in going to a cool afterlife?"

Not to belabor the point, but augury can't answer that question. You pose an action: "killing myself" or "taking the left hand passage", and it may answer that.

[deuxhero]

I like Umberlee in the Forgotten Realms. She's extorts sailors and ship passengers with threats of sinking. She's clearly evil, but if you are going to sea and value your life you WILL give her temple money.

Also nice is Urgathoa from Golarion is nice. She's the god of hedonism, disease (including curing it) and undead. Want to live life embracing your desires? Use undead for your own purposes (or use it as a route to immortality)? Stop the plague from getting to your family? Worship of her is perfectly reasonable.

[Psyren]

I like Umberlee in the Forgotten Realms. She's extorts sailors and ship passengers with threats of sinking. She's clearly evil, but if you are going to sea and value your life you WILL give her temple money.

Beshaba has an even better racket. Even if you appease Umberlee, pissing off Beshaba can still get your ship sunk, or raided by pirates, or targeted by a hungry kraken etc. She effectively controls the entire random encounters table!

[...]

Well that's more of a chaotic stance. A lawful person tends to want the odds firmly on their side and isn't going to simply trust to chance. So (C) is not a very likely option, and most likely not one that they'd perceive as an option.

Well, I was assuming (c) would be after a lot of math and strategy and other odd-finding stuff. I'm not saying that the lvl 1 LE commoner will get in a fight with Hextor, I'm saying the lvl 50 LE wizard will.

[AMFV]

Well, I was assuming (c) would be after a lot of math and strategy and other odd-finding stuff. I'm not saying that the lvl 1 LE commoner will get in a fight with Hextor, I'm saying the lvl 50 LE wizard will.

Yes, but only if he has a sure chance of winning. It's the same reason that many military strategists recommended not engaging unless you had a significant advantage in numbers. Taking a gamble on even odds, that's Chaotic. A Lawful person will bide his time till the odds are more favorable. I wouldn't engage Hextor as an LE Wizard of high level unless I felt I had at least a 75% chance of winning (or felt that I could alter circumstances till I did), otherwise I could lose. And seventy-five percent chance is actually not all that conservative. Some lawful folks would probably sit their odds needed as high as ninety.

[caimbuel]

From a pure roleplay perspective evil went evil for easy power or a quicker route. Books and other lore are full of this. And from a psychology type why not worship someone that says it is ok to rape and pillage as you want to, we humans like to be enabled.:smallsigh: