Spell Levels VS Epic

[Xar Zarath]

Hey guys and gals! I wanted to ask you all a questions.

Would you prefer using Epic Spell rules and calculations (dc, mitigating factors, seeds and all) for high level spells (above 9th level)

OR

Would you prefer the high level spells (10th level and above) to be in the format of spells such as 0 to 9th

[Gemini476]

I'd go for freeform Epic Spells, but I'd also go for spells of level 6+ being freeformish Incantations.

Both need some heavy DM adjucation, though. But having the players create the spells rather than the DM certainly makes their job much simpler.

...Unless you just meant the way of formatting the spells, in which case standardisation is pretty neat.

[Xar Zarath]

Actually I think I need to edit the OP the mention the format. Thanks

[Tvtyrant]

Personally I like spell levels, but I understand the intent behind epic spells.

[sideswipe]

ALL SPELLS need some heavy DM adjucation

fixed it for you :smallwink:

[Hecuba]

In the abstract, I like the design goals behind epic spells: the skill-based, check to cast mechanism more closely aligns with how I would like to see magic operate in general.
Much like true-naming, however, the execution given is not polished enough for use with most 3.5 games.

The system as it exists is too adjudication heavy. Unless I know I will be playing with a stable and established group, the goal of reachable-but-not-automatic spellcraft checks is to fine a needle to thread.

Staying with progressive slot increases is better supported by the rest of the system and easier to implement (if slightly less aesthetically pleasing).

[DeAnno]

In my opinion, the Epic Spell system is an awful pile of kludge that clashes with the rest of the game and it should be burned in fire.

[Xar Zarath]

In my opinion spell format is a great way to balance things out while the Epic Spellcasting system is sort of clunky the way it was done.

Had they continued the high level magics in the normal 0-9th matter, I think there wouldn't be so much hate at the epic magic system (since it wouldn't exist!) but then again people always complain of high levels and stuff...

[Phelix-Mu]

There used to be spells up to 11th level, I think, back in 2e, that were only accessible with stupidly advanced characters in certain settings (Netheril, for one). Then Mystra Greenwood realized that that was bad, and backed right off that for setting reasons. Hehe.

Part of the thing is that epic level or 10th level spells are kind of unnecessary. There is already almost no limit to what can be done with magic pre-epic, and when you add in Improved Spell Capacity for conceptual 10th++ level slots so you can metamagic your high level spells, and Improved Metagmagic, well a bunch more limiters come right off. We are discussing Terraforming Athas as a druid 17 in another thread, and while there is always an epic spell for that, there have been a number of pretty decent suggestions that handle the main issues of terraforming a desert world (if not necessarily Athas, since Athas is doomed) with just normal spells and a bunch of WBL.

So, really, I'd first ask just what you think a 10th level spell should be able to do. A single spell to summon a swarm of dragons? Well, the version in the ELH is pretty terrible, and you'd probably get off better by wishing up a component for a self-resetting trap of ice assassin of a gold dragon or the like, see? If almost anything is already not that big a deal with just 9ths and WBL and a bit of game optimization, just how much more power do you need to put in a single, daily-renewable packet in order to call it "epic spell" or "10th level?"

Assuming that you decide there is some kind of threshold, all of the math in the ELH needs to be re-examined/chucked for all but the lowest op campaigns, because, as-written, mitigation makes no sense with the sample spells. Any spell designed by any player that has brains for design will be much more powerful for a trivially low Spellcraft DC, and DCs down to 1 (or maybe even zero) are not at all hard to achieve.

A list of pre-built, modular 10th level things that can be cast in succession to create combined effects might be better, but it's hard to give more power without attempting to add a cost (which ELH totally failed at doing).