Pathfinder GM seeks help pleasing a 3.5 player...

[Nieroshai]

I have been running Pathfinder for around four years, and my players are generally happy with the results, even with the resident rules lawyer assuming I can't read, when I myself have had to re-teach him some rules post-game. He is partly why I ask this question, but most importantly is another particular player. This player in particular loves unconventional builds and while I beg that he not break the game for the sake of his fellow players, I absolutely love to see what he'll build next.
The question boils down to this: his favorite system is 3.5 and he finds the pathfinder system's options boring, how can I fix this? In his opinion, Pathfinder is starved of options. I would love to run 3.5 to make sure I can make my players feel at home, but the biggest reason he wants to play it is access to all of the splat books, and the sheer number of them makes my head hurt thinking of all the reading I have to do to understand what he wants to play. I could let him simply convert up to Pathfinder whatever he builds, but 3.5 runs the gamut from weak and bland to extremely OP and varied and some things he wants to port I just can't see adding. I would prefer not to run 3.5 as I see Pathfinder as a big step up and other than what it fixes not all that different, and am absolutely positive it's the splat books that even keep 3.5 on the table. I would be fine with, say, his blackscale lizardfolk built to progress to dragonhood, but I have other players who just want to play regular characters and every time he's vastly eclipsed them in power it's killed the game, and they really either don't want to build stronger characters or they don't want to take the time to research, which I do not fault them for.

Also that other guy, I think what's happening is that he keeps citing 3.5 rules. Still. Four years later.

So then, what should I do? Grit my teeth and read up on what he wants to import? Run 3.5 for the sake of one player? Something else I haven't thought of? And what do I do about everyone else?

[Segev]

Given that part of the problem is that he eclipses others in power, and the rest of the table has a roughly even power level with each other, you probably should first talk to him OOC. Don't just say, "please don't break the game." Instead, go over the other PCs' builds and show him the numbers they have. Or, if you don't want to do that, go over the other PCs' builds and determine what a typical range of numbers you expect to field your monsters with will be.

Armor class, saves, hit points, attack rolls, save DCs of monster abilities. Come up with a range for that. These numbers should be something your non-optimizing players' characters can handle.

Provide that numbers-range to your optimizer. Tell him to target that range, and that if he is consistently at the top of or beyond it, you're vetoing the build for game balance's sake.


Alternatively, ask him to build a party-wide buffing character. He won't be eclipsing them anymore when he's instead adding huge buffs to them and letting THEM deal the damage/make the saves/etc. You can safely ramp up encounters to match the party's new prowess.



Regarding your initial question about 3.5... I'd let him up-convert as long as whatever he builds falls into those other guidelines. If it doesn't, the problem isn't bringing in 3.5 material; I'm pretty sure he could break PF, too. But again, if he doesn't stay in the guidelines, tell him "no 3.5" and see if he stays to the guidelines in PF.

But make it clear that you're trying to ensure that the game is fun for everybody, and ask him to view staying within the lines drawn as an optimization challenge in its own right. He wants to optimize to be within the same ballpark as everybody else...even if that means moving them to his ballpark by buffing them all.

[Snowbluff]

I concur. PF is already broken. Letting him use 3.5 stuff will make it more borked, but if he just wants something interesting to do, the 3.5 options should help him out without interfering.

I would just love to have 3.5 feats in a PF game. 3.5 feats give a bunch of poaching abilities and active effects for better customization. Something 4e feats got right is having a bunch of awesome options available.

[Firechanter]

FWIW, your 3.5 player has my heartfelt sympathy.
It's not that Pathfinder would have no options. By now, with 19 classes and at least a dozen Archetypes per class, and a whole ****load of feats, and even a _few_ functioning PrCs, the sheer amount of options is not lacking.

Problem is, to a veteran 3.5 player, most of these options will appear lackluster and boring. Many archetypes are actually a strict downgrade to the base class. Most feats are just way too limited, giving only a minor situational bonus for something you don't really need. You can see that when you look at those popular colour-coded class handbooks. There are feats that score a "Terrible" or at best "Average" rating in a 3.5 handbook which, despite being exactly the same in PF, are suddenly rated as "Good" or "Excellent". Just for the lack of competition.

It is also very difficult (if not impossible) in PF to play a class "against the grain". One of my favourite 3E characters ever was a stealthy Cleric that was able to sneak around and act all Ranger-y, while barely hurting his spellcasting and being both an excellent archer and a veritable melee tank. All _without_ being a Druid. I haven't yet found out how do that in PF.

And the best thing that ever happened to 3E imho, namely Tome of Battle, has not been officially adapted to PF. There is Path of War but it is 3PP, which at least me PF-GMs so far have not allowed.

[Ingus]

Segev gets a virtual fullquote here :smallsmile:

My favourite solution is to go with the buffer path. Make him in charge with the other, like a silent, benevolent guardian.

Also... I played very few PF games, but I can concur that 3.5 has plentry of fluff options.
If he wants to have more flavour, why not? If, however, he wants mechanical advantages of 3.5 in PF... well, just no