Should gods (and elder gods) be statted?

[atemu1234]

I'm in favor if stats for everything, personally. But I'd like to hear both sides.

[Zanos]

I've always viewed gods in my campaigns as similar to Greek gods. They're extremely powerful and knowledgeable within their areas, but they aren't perfect or without flaw. So I think they should be stated. Considering that high level characters have many abilities that we often ascribe to beings of god-like power, I don't really find a problem with it. If a group of high level characters want to take on deities, more power to them.

[Millennium]

If they're characters, yes. If they're plot devices, no.

[Immabozo]

Ask your self one question. Do you want your players to be able to kill the gods? If yes, then stat them. If no, then dont.

I remember a quote from a little while back on these boards. "If it has stats, it can be killed"

Or to paraphrase the above quote, "If you stat them, your players will come."

[BWR]

If you stat it, they will kill it. It's true and I hate it. Some things should be beyond PCs.
I mostly played in the era where gods were ineffable, beyond mortal ken and beyond most rules. That's how I prefer it. Going off and killing gods and similar powered beings just ruins it for me. You might be able to take on an avatar or favored servant but the true thing should be beyond mere PCs. However, if people want to do that, that's their problem.

[AMFV]

I'm in favor if stats for everything, personally. But I'd like to hear both sides.

It depends on the flavor of your setting. If Gods can be killed (Greek type) and are ascended mortals. Which is the default in your setting then they can be statted, because they're just really powerful beings, basically. If you have a setting where Gods are scrutable but Omnipotent, you can create their dogma but don't stat them. If you have a setting where you have Elder Gods, you can't even write up their Dogma or their stats, because they are beyond the comprehension of mere mortals.

Of course there are in-between points and the like, but it's really just a question of how your setting works. For example in Greyhawk, all of the Gods are statted. In FR all of the Gods, except Ao, are statted and can be killed. In Ravenloft, the dread forces that control that place aren't statted, and aren't even really well known, they're effects are described, but not their capabilities or limits or designs.

So again it's a setting issue.

[Immabozo]

If you stat it, they will kill it. It's true and I hate it. Some things should be beyond PCs.
I mostly played in the era where gods were ineffable, beyond mortal ken and beyond most rules. That's how I prefer it. Going off and killing gods and similar powered beings just ruins it for me. You might be able to take on an avatar or favored servant but the true thing should be beyond mere PCs. However, if people want to do that, that's their problem.

I agree and disagree. In flavor, PCs are just champion humans, more powerful than most of your kind. In flavor, I agree. The gods should be untouchable.

Although, I can agree that it can be fun. I once had a campaign where the PC's eventually hunted down the gods, killed them and replaced them with themselves. But they had a seriously powerful artifact that let them do that. Two of them actually.

[AMFV]

I agree and disagree. In flavor, PCs are just champion humans, more powerful than most of your kind. In flavor, I agree. The gods should be untouchable.

Although, I can agree that it can be fun. I once had a campaign where the PC's eventually hunted down the gods, killed them and replaced them with themselves. But they had a seriously powerful artifact that let them do that. Two of them actually.

Again the flavor of the Gods really varies heavily by setting.

[Immabozo]

Again the flavor of the Gods really varies heavily by setting.

Agreed.

An interesting thought. In D&D, godhood is measured by how many worshipers you have. If you have enough, you become a god. If you don't, you don't. So that infers that there is a certain level of power in humans and other creatures in D&D, above the normal, or what we might expect.

Not entirely sure what the significance of that is, but it's a thought

[AMFV]

Agreed.

An interesting thought. In D&D, godhood is measured by how many worshipers you have. If you have enough, you become a god. If you don't, you don't. So that infers that there is a certain level of power in humans and other creatures in D&D, above the normal, or what we might expect.

Not entirely sure what the significance of that is, but it's a thought

Not in D&D, in FR. And I'm not sure about Greyhawk.

[Immabozo]

Not in D&D, in FR. And I'm not sure about Greyhawk.

In the non-setting specific book "Deities and demigods" it measures divinity by number of followers.

Although, that doesn't necessarily mean number of followers = divinity.

[Cowardly Griffo]

In Pathfinder's Golarion you can become a god by completing an obstacle course. One guy did it on a drunken dare. It definitely varies by setting. :smallcool:

But yeah. I heard this pretty cool phrase on the boards a few days back: only have the players roll when it's acceptable for them to succeed and it's acceptable for them to fail. Giving the gods stats means that it's acceptable for those stats to be rolled against at some point. So only give them stats if you're okay with the PCs going up against them, and either succeeding or failing.

That said, I'm generally a fan of player agency. Some things, I agree, should be beyond the characters' reach, but most things shouldn't. Aside from creatures which aren't so much entities as setting conceits, like the Lady of Pain, or Haruhi Suzumiya, or Keith David, stat everything as soon as it becomes apparent that you need to.

[AMFV]

In the non-setting specific book "Deities and demigods" it measures divinity by number of followers.

Although, that doesn't necessarily mean number of followers = divinity.

That's Greyhawk... the presumed default setting. The ones the fluff in the core books is attached to.

[Cocytus]

The question as to if gods/elder gods be statted lies in what kind of campaign and themes you intend to create.

If you're planning for a very combat heavy, high powered game then you might as well stat these gods because someone at some point might have aspirations to doing so and you don't want to limit your player's agency.

However, at the other extreme, if you're looking at a more roleplay heavy, puzzle-esque type of campaign, you might want to set up the gods as immortal story pieces to help get the plot going.

It entirely depends on what you want to get out of them as a DM.

[Immabozo]

That's Greyhawk... the presumed default setting. The ones the fluff in the core books is attached to.

huh, how do I know if it's a setting specific book then? Because apparently, I dont know how

[Doug Lampert]

I'm in favor if stats for everything, personally. But I'd like to hear both sides.

There are two reasons to stat something.
1) So the PCs can kill it.
2) So you'll know its capabilities for other interactions and rules backgrounds.

For gods (2) doesn't normally actually require full game stats, it's more: Is the god able to follow the actions of multiple worshipers at once? How active is it and how easily and often does it intervene? Does the god have effectively unlimited numbers of servants and armies of solars and planetars, or is even a single level 17 cleric a really significant follower? To what extent (if any) does the god's power depend on having mortal worshipers?

Those all change the world and require knowing something about the gods.

But while those don't require actual detailed stats. You may well still want game stats as part of answering that sort of question and keeping things consistent.

(1) Is a campaign flavor sort of thing. IMAO killing gods should never be easy or safe, but should be possible. There can't be more than one omnipotent being, the instant you say gods (plural) you imply limits to the power of a god. But this belief of mine, that killing gods should be possible but should NEVER be easy (not even for another more powerful god) implies lots of things about how epic rules need to work in the world and about attributes of gods.

[AMFV]

huh, how do I know if it's a setting specific book then? Because apparently, I dont know how

All of the default fluff is Greyhawk. The default crunch is settingless

[Ravens_cry]

Depends on the world. In a world where gods are simply beings and things that happen to be worshipped, sure, stat them out to your heart's content. In a world where god's are ineffable , conceptual beings so out of human experience as to be barely called beings, no, no they should certainly should not.
There was an article in Dragon magazine #77 pg. 'Elemental gods' that clearly sums up what I want to try some time. These are gods that are undeniably real, but, at the same time are very alien and awesome, in the old fashioned sense of the word. They are remote enough that you can have schisms and cults and heratics, yet, at the same time, when the priest comes to bless the fields, when sacrifices are made to keep the flock strong, to let the sun rise, you know something real is there as well.
I've been racking my brains how to make this work for d20, because I feel the whole domains thing is just so confining and gamey, yet I feel some mechanical component is appropriate.

[Azoth]

Unless I am running a high level game, I see no real use stating out the dieties. Even then, I refuse to use the stuff in books like Dieties and Demigods for more than cursurory glance.

If I know one of my players is comboing Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and Incantrix...no way on earth are my dieties going to be things like outsider20/rogue20/sorcerer20 with toughness 20 times...

I will stat aspects earlier if I plan on players having interactions with them, because well...players tend to try to kill things without thinking it completely through.

[Necroticplague]

In the non-setting specific book "Deities and demigods" it measures divinity by number of followers.

Although, that doesn't necessarily mean number of followers = divinity.

To just support the second point, the entry for overdeities says that typically they don't have any worshippers, So clearly the amount of worshippers doesn't cause divinity, but is just something that tends to come as a side-effect of being a god.

As for the main point, I'm gonna go with "depends on their relevance". In some settings, giving the gods stats would be unnecessary, because they aren't really characters as much as they are setting elements (Lady of Pain is a good example, though don't tell her I said she was a god). If you're doing something similar to the Abrahamic religion's diety, stats aren't needed, the god(s) are just a veil for fiat. If you're going to have gods similar to greek or roman, where they are merely incredibly powerful creatures that can be interacted with like other characters, they should have stats. This goes double if their kinda d*****, thus meaning your players might actually want to kill them. Due to the physical nature of the gods in DnD (they physically can take forms and walk around on the Prime if they choose), combined with having their own domains lends me more towards the latter (heck, if you want to invade heaven or hell, might as well take out the top guy, right?), but some people's campaign ideas might be different.

[OldTrees1]

In my personal opinion gods and elder gods should be statted. However their stat block might be drastically different (missing lines and having new lines).



5 minute examples:
Boccob, god of knowledge
Base Prayer DC: 20 (Prayer check* is 1d20+1/2 level + mental ability modifier + misc modifiers)
Response: Give an answer limited by a knowledge check with a modifier equal to the prayer check result.

Kord, god of strength and endurance
Base Prayer DC: 20 (Prayer check is 1d20+1/2 level + physical ability modifier + misc modifiers)
Response: Grant a +2 divine bonus to one physical stat for 1 day. (Bonus increases by +2 for every 5 points the base DC was exceeded)

*Prayer check is determining if the god is paying attention/interested enough in you. Different gods have different permitted modifiers. Also repeated praying has increasing penalties to the prayer check.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sure, and when your players go after the gods and get mad because their super optimize build lost... Just tell them the book they read the gods stats on came from the last mortal account of the god in action. :smallamused:

Might have been a few years since someone wrote that info down or it could be all made up... Who knows.

Edit:

My next campaign will be about a person wanting the Manual of Monaters tome that has been locked away. Supposibly it has all the information one could want about the every creature in the world and cosmos, including gods.

If they win, I'll throw my monster manual down in front of them. It will be a 2nd edition version... :smalltongue:

Unless they perform a ritual on it (which will be stuck in one of the pages) it stays a 2nd edition.

[Red Fel]

My position, as it often is, consists of "It depends."

In most cases, I don't think that gods should be statted, because in most cases - at least how I run games - gods should be used as set pieces, not as monsters. They exist to move the plot along, not to take an active role in it. They are Maguffin Devices; they may be the ostensible motivating factor, but the gods themselves won't take part in the plot or its resolution. Their agents might, or people acting in the mistaken belief that they work for the gods. As such, it is as pointless to stat the gods as it is to stat a mountain or the ocean.

There are some cases, however, where it is appropriate. If you have a campaign which is going to venture into epic levels, where players will be confronting the most powerful beings in the universe, it may be productive to have statted deities. Not necessarily for combat, but for various reasons. For example, an epic-level Bard might want to Diplomance the God of the Hunt by playing a ballad in his extraplanar lodge. An epic-level Factotum might try to get into a riddle contest with Vecna. And so forth. In this context, statting is helpful, simply because the gods become like most other beings at that level - albeit with inscrutable power and nigh-endless experience and knowledge.

That said, I do not believe that Elder Gods should be statted, full stop. Simple reason. The Elder Gods are supposed to be to the gods what the gods are to mortals - beings of incomprehensible power, presence, and mind; beings beyond morality or mortality; beings so potent, so omnipresent, that their very existence within the cosmology disrupts things.

Considering Lovecraftian-style Elder Gods, you're dealing with beings that are so impossibly immense that the existence of mortal life is barely a blip on their radar. Mortal beings, even epic-level PCs, are like dust, tiny specks of nothing in an impossibly vast void, to these beings. It would be pointless to stat them, simply because it would be impossible to do anything to them.

A note: I'm talking about gods and Elder Gods specifically. Their avatars should of course be statted, because avatars are designed to work within the planar cosmology and are subject to its rules - including the classic "if it has stats, it can be killed" rule. Stat it and kill it.

[Atnuul]

I've done it in a pretty strange way.
The flavor of my game world is such that the pantheon of gods from the Player's Handbook are powerful mortal usurpers from another plane, and they were only able to defeat the game world's more potent native deities because of a pact between the original gods and some other guys who were even older (who scared the young gods into agreeing to the pact because they were there first and claimed to be more powerful even though they weren't). The usurper PHB gods are statted (far weaker than in Deities and Demigods; closer to 25-30th level PCs), but the older native gods are not statted except for their dogma and philosophy and what not, and the incomprehensible, slumbering overdeity (more of an infinite well of creation energy with a pseudo-consciousness) that birthed creation is not only statless, It is unknowable; the only thing known for sure is that It exists out there somewhere.
I did this for a couple of reasons.
It's not that I wanted the native gods to never die; one of them is rotting in a divine prison at the moment, and another one has supposedly gone mad and is withering away. It's that I didn't want the players to kill them by standard RAW, and if they ever got the opportunity to take one down, it would be as a flavor device and not as a mechanical quagmire of divine AC bonuses and salient divine abilities and me saying "he saw you from 20 miles away" to the anger of my players. Meanwhile, I fully expected the usurper gods to be challenged at some point and this has already happened a few times. That said, it depends on the flavor of your game. As has already been said, if you want the players to be able to kill the gods, stat them and don't get too attached. If you want them to be untouchable, don't stat them. If you want them to be unknowable, make the players roll sanity when they speak.:smallsmile:

[.Zero]

I think it's all a matter of fluff and flavour. Just look at Ao, Thoon or a Binder's Vestiges. These beings are specifically intended to be beyond the game rules and above a PC's reach, so it is reasonable they are unstatted. It's not like the "if they have stats they can be killed" stuff, but they are something simply intended to be beyond everything. Thoon is explicitly undefined, it could be everything, anything or nothing at the same time, while Ao is invulnerable to any sort of attack or effect, and can banish or destroy other dieties with a blink of an eye. You, as a DM, should never ever let your players face these beings, and if you do it, either you're doing a TPK, or have really strong story-telling reasons, but that's it, it should solely be story-telling.

On the other side, D&D regular gods seem to be based upon Greek gods, so it's fair game to stat them, and if PCs want to ascend and kill them, they shoul do so. But this obviously depends on how a DM runs his campaign.

[Gemini476]

In the non-setting specific book "Deities and demigods" it measures divinity by number of followers.

Although, that doesn't necessarily mean number of followers = divinity.

D&DG p.13

WORSHIPERS OF THE D&D PANTHEON
The deities of the D&D pantheon are independent of mortals for their power, though it’s clear that many use worshipers to augment their power. Deities such as Corellon Larethian, Garl Glittergold, Gruumsh, and Yondalla are deeply concerned with their worshipers and undoubtedly draw some power from them. Boccob is infamous for his indifference toward worshipers.

Do note that having worshippers does give you some power - or knowledge of events that your followers are near, at least.

AFAIK the Forgotten Realms are the only published setting where more worshippers = more power.

[Immabozo]

All of the default fluff is Greyhawk. The default crunch is settingless

Good to know. But I am completely unfamiliar with Greyhawk, where can I find it? And is this fact in a book?


In my personal opinion gods and elder gods should be statted. However their stat block might be drastically different (missing lines and having new lines).

5 minute examples:
Boccob, god of knowledge
Base Prayer DC: 20 (Prayer check* is 1d20+1/2 level + mental ability modifier + misc modifiers)
Response: Give an answer limited by a knowledge check with a modifier equal to the prayer check result.

Kord, god of strength and endurance
Base Prayer DC: 20 (Prayer check is 1d20+1/2 level + physical ability modifier + misc modifiers)
Response: Grant a +2 divine bonus to one physical stat for 1 day. (Bonus increases by +2 for every 5 points the base DC was exceeded)

*Prayer check is determining if the god is paying attention/interested enough in you. Different gods have different permitted modifiers. Also repeated praying has increasing penalties to the prayer check.

1, these are not stats. 2, these seem incredibly broken and abusable. I had a level 15 warhulk/barbearian that, while raging, had a 46 str and a 36 con. So he could get d20 + 7 (level) + 18 (str) for an average roll of 35, gaining, on average, + 8 str that stacks with all other pluses, and it lasts for a whole day, with no resource investment. Seems horribly unbalanced.


Edit:

My next campaign will be about a person wanting the Manual of Monaters tome that has been locked away. Supposibly it has all the information one could want about the every creature in the world and cosmos, including gods.

If they win, I'll throw my monster manual down in front of them. It will be a 2nd edition version... :smalltongue:

Unless they perform a ritual on it (which will be stuck in one of the pages) it stays a 2nd edition.

This is evil, and highly amusing.


D&DG p.13

Do note that having worshippers does give you some power - or knowledge of events that your followers are near, at least.

AFAIK the Forgotten Realms are the only published setting where more worshippers = more power.

Thank you, that is all good to know!

[SpawnOfMorbo]

This is evil, and highly amusing.


Thanks, that is one of the best compliments a DM can get :smallbiggrin:

[AMFV]

Good to know. But I am completely unfamiliar with Greyhawk, where can I find it? And is this fact in a book?


All books that don't explicitly have a setting are set in Greyhawk, the only setting material that has been published in 3rd Edition (or later) to my knowledge is The Greyhawk Gazetteer. I've not seen many games that run in a strict Greyhawk, or Greyhawk with a considerable amount of lore.

[OldTrees1]

1, these are not stats. 2, these seem incredibly broken and abusable. I had a level 15 warhulk/barbearian that, while raging, had a 46 str and a 36 con. So he could get d20 + 7 (level) + 18 (str) for an average roll of 35, gaining, on average, + 8 str that stacks with all other pluses, and it lasts for a whole day, with no resource investment. Seems horribly unbalanced.

1) Yes they are stats in the same way Cuthulu's "kill 1d4 investigators per round" is stats.
2) Give me a break, I spent less than 5 minutes and my goal was to give an example of stat blocks that did not include hp/saves/... not to playtest them.

[Immabozo]

Thanks, that is one of the best compliments a DM can get :smallbiggrin:

you're welcome


All books that don't explicitly have a setting are set in Greyhawk, the only setting material that has been published in 3rd Edition (or later) to my knowledge is The Greyhawk Gazetteer. I've not seen many games that run in a strict Greyhawk, or Greyhawk with a considerable amount of lore.

But how do you know? Where is that said?


1) Yes they are stats in the same way Cuthulu's "kill 1d4 investigators per round" is stats.
2) Give me a break, I spent less than 5 minutes and my goal was to give an example of stat blocks that did not include hp/saves/... not to playtest them.

1. Fair enough. I guess my point is that they are not stats in the sense of "1652 HP, AC 125, 75% concealment, regen 20, fast healing 20, SR 82, +200/+200/+195/+195/+190/+190 to hit, 10D6 +127" or something that lets your PC's have something they can fight in combat. the idea "If it has stats, no matter how absurd, it can be killed" does not lend itself to the idea that those are stats.

But, you are right, if it was made in 5 minutes, it's probably impossible to make it perfect.

[AMFV]

you're welcome



But how do you know? Where is that said?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk#Third_edition

Edit: Also you have Mordenkainen, who shows up, Bigby and Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Which are in fact after Greyhawk NPCs

[Valluman]

To answer the question posed by the poster, I feel like gods shouldn't have stats if they're merely for the plot. If they show up, in Greek God style, request things to be done, or hint at events to PCs, they don't need stats. If you ever plan on having your PCs fight the gods, though, they obviously need stats.

[Psyren]

Aspects/heralds/harbingers/avatars/spawn yes, actual deities and similar entities no.

[Doug Lampert]

To answer the question posed by the poster, I feel like gods shouldn't have stats if they're merely for the plot. If they show up, in Greek God style, request things to be done, or hint at events to PCs, they don't need stats. If you ever plan on having your PCs fight the gods, though, they obviously need stats.

I'll add, and not just for fighting against. If the PCs are ever going to be in a position to ask a god for a favor or to annoy a god to where he might want to swat them but not care enough to show up and do it himself then you need to have some idea of what the god can actually accomplish and of how many other calls on his time and power there are.

If the gods are only active as quest-givers/information sources, then they don't need stats other than a vague idea of how much information they have and how they use it.

But if the gods are ever interacted with on a significant level, then they do need stats, at least for the interactions. In 3.x I'd say that if the game is going to have a level 17+ cleric appear, then you need some sort of specified power level for a god (no matter how rudimentary), because you need to be able to decide what the god can and will do if someone casts "miracle", and I don't like answering that sort of question with "whatever makes the plot work" because as a GM I don't create the plot, I create the SETTING and SITUATION, and the PLAYERS create the plot!

[Hecuba]

But how do you know? Where is that said?
Technically, it wasn't said during 3.5.
The terminology used during 3.5 was "D&D's default setting" (and variations thereupon).
Occasionally, when a WOTC person discussed it informally, they noteed that the default setting was "Greyhawk-light."

Greyhawk technically had its own existence in this period, primarily through the Living Greyhawk activities.

Regarding quantity of worshipers as it relates to Divinity in the default-setting, you're confusing correlation with causation.
Deities and Demigods gives the number of worshipers you should expect gods of certain ranks to have, but unless you choose to link divinity to worship this is not an enforced link.
And, as Gemini476 points out, this is explicitly not the case for the default pantheon.
They are, however, reliant on worship for some portion of their power: for the default setting, worship is extremely useful but not necessary for divinity.

[Immabozo]

Technically, it wasn't said during 3.5.
The terminology used during 3.5 was "D&D's default setting" (and variations thereupon).
Occasionally, when a WOTC person discussed it informally, they noteed that the default setting was "Greyhawk-light."

Greyhawk technically had its own existence in this period, primarily through the Living Greyhawk activities.

Regarding quantity of worshipers as it relates to Divinity in the default-setting, you're confusing correlation with causation.
Deities and Demigods gives the number of worshipers you should expect gods of certain ranks to have, but unless you choose to link divinity to worship this is not an enforced link.
And, as Gemini476 points out, this is explicitly not the case for the default pantheon.
They are, however, reliant on worship for some portion of their power: for the default setting, worship is extremely useful but not necessary for divinity.

First, thank you.

Second, like I said in my original post on the divinity and worshippers thing (did you read it at all?),


Although, that doesn't necessarily mean number of followers = divinity.

[Socksy]

Personally, I believe the Gods should be statted, especially in an Epic campaign. First real time playing Pathfinder after using 3.0 and 3.5 for years, a solo campaign with my now-ex boyfriend attempting to DM (and complaining that he can't make a plot and there are no published adventures starting at level 20), and there's a conversation which goes rather like this (my Oracle was level 18 with some templayes giving another 5 cr):

"Okay, so my knowledge (religion) tells me there are HOW MANY gods in this room?! Okay, it's fine, I rolled an 80 on my Stealth check."

"They see you."

"What... but you didn't even roll!"

"I don't have to, they're Gods."

"The Pathfinder Gods all have modifiers of +80 or higher?"

"No, they're Gods."

"What, so you're saying they can just do anything?"

"Yes, it's like the Greek Gods."

Cue me trying to tell him, with examples, that the Greek Gods weren't just 'LOL I WIN'. He said they WERE like that, and only the most lucky and powerful of mortals could beat them. I mentioned Arachne, and apparently a weaver girl is more powerful than my ECL 23 mid-op PC, enough so to cause the Gods to somehow get stats.

Thing is, he only saw fit to mention this while at his DMPC's freaking magical realm wedding to an Azata, rather than, say, before my PC roflstomped Titivilus and a pit fiend, directly by an ancient Hellmouth.

So yeah, Gods should be statted, especially if you only mention they don't have stats AFTER a PC has gathered the interest of one. Athough pretty much everything he did involving the Gods and Churches was messed up (an example being that some mid-level Paladins of Urgathoa refused to let my Oracle, a Dread Lich at that point, turn them into powerful and free-willed undead, and didn't fall when they openly and knowingly attacked a powerful undead creature for insulting them because "Urgathoa found it funny to watch", despite me linking him to their Paladin Code. Yeah.) So it might have just been a case of terrible DM rather than terrible system.

[Hecuba]

First, thank you.

Second, like I said in my original post on the divinity and worshippers thing (did you read it at all?),

I actually missed that post, sorry.

I was looking at the post you made just prior:

In D&D, godhood is measured by how many worshipers you have. If you have enough, you become a god. If you don't, you don't.

[The Insanity]

If I intend them to interact with the PCs, yes.

[Immabozo]

I actually missed that post, sorry.

I was looking at the post you made just prior:

AH, ok. That's understandable. there is a lot to read, lol

[AMFV]

So yeah, Gods should be statted, especially if you only mention they don't have stats AFTER a PC has gathered the interest of one. Athough pretty much everything he did involving the Gods and Churches was messed up (an example being that some mid-level Paladins of Urgathoa refused to let my Oracle, a Dread Lich at that point, turn them into powerful and free-willed undead, and didn't fall when they openly and knowingly attacked a powerful undead creature for insulting them because "Urgathoa found it funny to watch", despite me linking him to their Paladin Code. Yeah.) So it might have just been a case of terrible DM rather than terrible system.

Well Anti-Paladins aren't exactly ones for being polite or kind or following dogma exactly (they are after all chaotic and are furthermore required to be chaotic). I actually firmly disapprove of Paizo's decision to give Anti-Paladins codes, they're the Paragons of CE and it wouldn't make sense for the Paragons of CE to have a rigid code.