DM Help!- The Deity Slayer

[mr_odd]

Hey guys, I need help with some logic/reasoning. (I'll try to keep everything as basic as possible. If you need more information, let me know.)

In my campaign's cosmology, there is a larger importance on the positive energy and negative energy planes. Erythnul, wanting to reclaim his title as the deity of war, summons the Beast, a creature made of pure negative energy, to kill raise up an army and kill Hextor.

The Beast wreaks havoc on the material planes and turning it's inhabitants into husks. It completely destroys one material plane then moves onto the PCs material plane.

When it slowly starts to turn the inhabitants of this second material plane, Olidammara, ironically the only deity who seems to care about the material planes, attempts to stop the Beast but is killed.

Fast forward, the PCs get their weapons, spell books, etc. empowered by the guardians of the positive energy plane to fight the Beast.

Question 1: The players will be level 10-12 when they fight the Beast. How do I stat a bbeg (+tons of husks) who is able to kill deities, but fall to the hands of 10 level 10 characters?

Question 2: Does this all seem plausible/logical? I want my players to be taking this very seriously, not wondering why blah blah blah didn't happen or isn't happening.

[sideswipe]

the sword of a thousand truths equivalent from south park.
its a sword of immeasurable power blah blah.

Olidammara only just lost to the beast, and at that point the other gods realised "stuff just got real"

they fashion a set of weapons, one for each of the party (and any backups) and they gift them to them. they are normal magical weapons, but can be enchanted instantly and only paying the difference from the current enchant level to the new one. (essentially ancestral relic types)

on top of this, they gain powers whenever they are near a servant of Erythnul or himself. the powers they gain are the exact powers needed to kill the enemy in question (overcome damage reduction, bypass immunities, drain a special reserve like power points, just make stuff up)

and also give the party some buffs against things that would normally just destroy them. (save or dies and stuff)

its a start.

[Vhaidara]

Apply the Snarl Principle: It was created by a god (this time on purpose instead of by accident) to kill gods. It is really good at killing gods, being immune to most of their power and being the antithesis of their essence, it can harm them without being harmed. Against mortals, all it has is being really strong.

Perhaps after killing Hextor (for which I hate you), it went and killed Erythnul.

Perhaps Olidammara steals weapons from the armories of the other gods, or gets the beast drunk (that one's less likely).

[BloodyMartian]

Exhaust the beast's resources on a fight before the party engages him.
Have a similar creature of pure positive energy fight it. Maybe the players summon this creature to aid them in the fight.
Maybe they have to go perform a ritual to drag it to the Positive Energy Plane where it will be weaker.
Maybe their get weapons that cause massive damage to negative energy creatures but are just normal weapons against everything else. Maybe single use artifacts that do things like full heal, true rez, turn husks.

[icefractal]

In terms of being plausible, the main question you have to answer is why the gods themselves don't defeat it instead, or send their most powerful minions to do so.

One possibility is that the creature has an ability to kill anything. Even a god. The PCs will likely be killed more than once during the fight, but with the level of divine support they have, they can be quickly resurrected. Bringing a deity back to life, on the other hand, is a lot more difficult. So the gods aren't going to do it themselves.

Also, depending on your cosmology, it might be difficult/impossible to bring outsiders back to life, which rules out the most powerful minions of the gods. Or alternately, the creature brings a chunk of the negative energy plane around with it, and can bar extraplanar creatures from entering.

So that just leaves the more powerful mortals. Which maybe isn't a problem - in some settings, 10th level PCs might be the most powerful mortals, at least for the purpose of fighting something. Otherwise, there's always the possibility that the more powerful people tried and failed. Now with the knowledge from their attempts, the PCs may have found enough about the creature to succeed.

And/or, it's some trait that the PCs possess. Like having/not having been to the negative plane before, or never/all having been resurrected, or whatever.

[mr_odd]

In terms of being plausible, the main question you have to answer is why the gods themselves don't defeat it instead, or send their most powerful minions to do so.

My first idea was that the deities are too busy. In my cosmology, there is a Creator who created everything. The planes, deities, etc. He created the deities as caretakers, but they soon turned their backs on the creator. Some became evil, while the good deities began to believe the Creator was evil for not punishing the evil deities. This is actually the third realm that the Creator has made and both of the previous realms ended up being completely destroyed due to the created not following the Creator. Basically, they were their own downfall.

In this instance, Pelor, Kord, and Heironeous unite and declare war against the evil deities over Olidammara's death. They're constantly fighting in a war, and as such cannot fight the Beast.

What sounds better? The deities can't fight the Beast, or the deities are too busy fighting each other?

[Alleine]

Take a page from the Elder Evils: the very nature of The Beast renders it largely immune to the power of deities. That coupled with the fact that the PCs are so small and insignificant in comparison gives them just the opening they need.

[XmonkTad]

Well, there are "kick down the door" approaches to stat-ing out the beast, and that will allow the players to kill it. After all, if it has HP, that HP can me made to go away.

However, you could have this all be a trick and instead of it killing deities it's just imprisoning them or holding them somewhere for "digestion" or whatever. Similar to the Atropus, the PCs defeat the beast not by killing it directly, but by freeing it's imprisoned/digested deities. The inside of the beast is actually a giant dungeon, and the husks patrol it like antibodies. The dieties don't venture inside to kill it themselves because if they do the beast tries to absorb them, a lack of divine ranks makes the PCs unappetizing.

This also deals with the after effects, where instead of having an entire pantheon of grateful (or angry) deities, you just have the few you freed.

[Vaz]

At CR12+ is more than enough to make killing an army a practical venture. Damage Resistance, Spell Resistance, high saves, area dispels to prevent buffs etc will see most armies (usually, at best with level 6 characters, maybe even with a PrC dip, to represent upper echelons with conscripted commoners, a core of warriors, maybe a few fighters to represent knights, rogues, scouts to provide skirmishers etc).

As an example a Human Fighter Archer 6 can fire 3+ arrows in the time a typical Warrior Archer fires one. Against spellcasting, it is nothing, but it shows how 'elite' units operate. They are your Seal Team 6. However, put it against CR6 targets, and the introduction of DR and multiple HD targets makes the non magic SEAL Team member struggling. It can mow down mooks by the dozen, but a dinosaur type opponent with high Natural Armour and HP could brush past the average damage it deals.

Similarly, elite battlemages take to battle at L5 with fireball a staple spell capable of blowing holes in entire platoons of men. Cleric 3 with spontaneous Cure Light wounds can heal half a squad back to near full health, or restore a dying man to full health before needing a long rest. Similarly, a battleaxe can kill all but the hardiest soldier if a decent connection is made.

By CR12, all of that basic damage that an army can put out is bypassed. An odd lucky strike by a magically enhanced soldier with a heavy composite bow might be able to plink off one or two damage off an equivalent CR12 dragon, but in return, saod Dragon can just render an entire army to nothing even without spellcasting.

There was a thread around a while ago, that without access to immense power (7th level spells or higher), there is, per spell slot, very little higher level characters can do to massive armies apart from defending themselves.

That means it is the perfect reason for the gods to not foght it. If they are personally too busy (in such cases I use the gods as dedkcating every spare amount of energy to holding up the wall between this universe and the far realm) and it is also too powerful for the army, then that leaves adventurers.

However it should also be end game material - havig them defeat that, and only to find a CR20 dragon wandering about leaves the question why didnt the planar resident defeat it?

[atemu1234]

This thing is pure negative energy, right? Force it to go to the Positive Energy Plane, or create its equal and opposite out of the Positive energy plane. Then, find a secluded (but hopefully very large) dead magic plane and put them both there, and let them duke it out. By sheer logic the moment they collide they should create an explosion roughly equivalent to a dying dwarf star.

[mr_odd]

At CR12+ is more than enough to make killing an army a practical venture. Damage Resistance, Spell Resistance, high saves, area dispels to prevent buffs etc will see most armies (usually, at best with level 6 characters, maybe even with a PrC dip, to represent upper echelons with conscripted commoners, a core of warriors, maybe a few fighters to represent knights, rogues, scouts to provide skirmishers etc).

As an example a Human Fighter Archer 6 can fire 3+ arrows in the time a typical Warrior Archer fires one. Against spellcasting, it is nothing, but it shows how 'elite' units operate. They are your Seal Team 6. However, put it against CR6 targets, and the introduction of DR and multiple HD targets makes the non magic SEAL Team member struggling. It can mow down mooks by the dozen, but a dinosaur type opponent with high Natural Armour and HP could brush past the average damage it deals.

Similarly, elite battlemages take to battle at L5 with fireball a staple spell capable of blowing holes in entire platoons of men. Cleric 3 with spontaneous Cure Light wounds can heal half a squad back to near full health, or restore a dying man to full health before needing a long rest. Similarly, a battleaxe can kill all but the hardiest soldier if a decent connection is made.

By CR12, all of that basic damage that an army can put out is bypassed. An odd lucky strike by a magically enhanced soldier with a heavy composite bow might be able to plink off one or two damage off an equivalent CR12 dragon, but in return, saod Dragon can just render an entire army to nothing even without spellcasting.

There was a thread around a while ago, that without access to immense power (7th level spells or higher), there is, per spell slot, very little higher level characters can do to massive armies apart from defending themselves.

That means it is the perfect reason for the gods to not foght it. If they are personally too busy (in such cases I use the gods as dedkcating every spare amount of energy to holding up the wall between this universe and the far realm) and it is also too powerful for the army, then that leaves adventurers.

Thanks for this explanation! I personally worry that my players will think, "Why are we the ones fighting this?" but with this train of logic, it makes perfect sense.


However it should also be end game material - havig them defeat that, and only to find a CR20 dragon wandering about leaves the question why didnt the planar resident defeat it? By the time they fight it, we will be in mid to late spring semester, so I was planning it near the end.

After the climatic battle, each PC will meet the Creator. He will explain whatever else needs explaining and will say instead of creating a fourth realm, he will "refresh" the third one. Each PC will be offered a position as a deity, while those who decline find themselves in a restored, but slightly different world.


This thing is pure negative energy, right? Force it to go to the Positive Energy Plane, or create its equal and opposite out of the Positive energy plane. Then, find a secluded (but hopefully very large) dead magic plane and put them both there, and let them duke it out. By sheer logic the moment they collide they should create an explosion roughly equivalent to a dying dwarf star.

This fits with something I was rolling around in my mind, except for as a reason for the Beast to not fight a higher power.

[atemu1234]

This fits with something I was rolling around in my mind, except for as a reason for the Beast to not fight a higher power.

Go the Demonata route. Have each of the PCs have a piece of the positive energy plane- a key, if you will- locked inside them.

[mr_odd]

Go the Demonata route. Have each of the PCs have a piece of the positive energy plane- a key, if you will- locked inside them.

That is almost exactly what I was thinking! If the Guardian of the Positive Energy Plane cannot fight the Beast for fear of destroying the entire Material Plane, then at the very least he can give them his sword. The Guardian breaks his massive sword made of positive energy, and uses the fragments to empower the PCs!