Banning PHB

[tim01300]

So in a few months I am planning to run my group through the evil campaign Way of the Wicked. I've read in a few places about running campaigns without the PHB because it contains more of the unbalanced spells and aspects of the game. I also like the idea of this because it will force my players to venture out of their comfort zones ( in a year and a half we have had no multi class players and only one take a prestige class). I think they will like it once they get going.

Do you guys think this is an ok idea for an evil campaign? And what difficulties should I expect? I know I will need to allow certain feats from the PHB, anything else?

[sideswipe]

ban the problem spells and the problem classes. not the whole book.

[Zaq]

Leave the mundane feats alone. Most of them (with a couple notable exceptions) aren't actually very good, but they're often required for other feats or for PrCs, or they're just required by the system to play a certain style of character (just try making an archer without Precise Shot and see how much fun it is).

Of course, you could also give a lot of them out for free, since they're feat taxes rather than things that you should have to pay for. Power Attack, TWF, most of the archery feats . . .

[AMFV]

So in a few months I am planning to run my group through the evil campaign Way of the Wicked. I've read in a few places about running campaigns without the PHB because it contains more of the unbalanced spells and aspects of the game. I also like the idea of this because it will force my players to venture out of their comfort zones ( in a year and a half we have had no multi class players and only one take a prestige class). I think they will like it once they get going.

Do you guys think this is an ok idea for an evil campaign? And what difficulties should I expect? I know I will need to allow certain feats from the PHB, anything else?

Well first off, Way of the Wicked is Pathfinder, not 3.5. As far as banning the PHB. I would recommend against blanket bans unless you've had specific issues. In my experience it's much easier to ban something once you know it's a problem then to wind up banning things that aren't going to be. Also banning things like that seems vindictive and not a fair choice, if the players have seen the unbalance themselves then banning/trading things will seem more fair, and that's important. Also if you're banning the Pathfinder PHB it's going to be more difficult to get anything done, since they have significantly less splat books.

[Pluto!]

I think that's more of an expression used for shock value than something people actually do for game balance.

I mean 7/11 classes are about as benign as can be, the feats are integral for any sort of nonmagical character, and the systemic power imbalances between casters and no casters remain - just you're talking about Samurai, Scouts, Sohei and Archivists instead of Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians and Wizards.

But as a one-shot gimmick, sure it could be fun to push players toward subsystems like ToB and Psionics instead of vanilla mundane classes and vancian casters. But don't expect removing the option of dipping Fighter 2, for example, after Warblade 3 to do any wonders for game balance.

[137beth]

Here's what I tried for a mostly non-core game:
First, ban the core classes and spells. Feat prerequisites are too much a part of the game to ban all PHB feats without a fair amount of extra work, so I keep all the core feats.
For items, I'd suggest keeping all the non-magical items in the PHB unaltered. If you want to ban core magic items, I strongly recommend house-ruling that magic weapons and armors do not need a +1 minimum, and allowing non-core weapon/armor enhancements. This is generally a boost to the characters who use weapons, since the required +1 is worse than other enhancements.

For magic item creation, if an item lists a core spell as a prerequisite, replace it with an appropriate caster level prerequisite. As an exception, eternal wands and similar items which cast core spells should be banned along with the spells they emulate.

I've done this before and it's worked out fairly well. I allowed the core races, though, since they have the most support in racial substitution levels. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that you won't be seeing any non-core "normal" spellcasters like beguilers or dread necromancers. Most of the non-core caster's spell lists are drawn from the PHB spells, so banning PHB spells effectively bans those classes as well. You'll end up with a lot more psionics, binders, warlocks, incarnum, and martial adepts.

[Anlashok]

ban the problem spells and the problem classes. not the whole book.

So.. Keep the bard?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Be specific about what you're banning. I would ban the core races, the core classes, the core spells, all magic items from the DMG (excepting simple +X armors and weapons), and I would ban the Monster Manual subraces of the PHB races. At that point you're forcing players to think well outside of the box.

It's important to consider what you're cutting. No detect magic, no identify, no cure spells, and no raise dead spells are probably the most significant. There are equivalent spells from other sourcebooks, but they tend to have flavor limitations which are interesting. You can also ban those spells on a case-by-case basis, or ban broad categories (like "no magic for raising the dead").

[heavyfuel]

So.. Keep the bard?

Of course not only the Bard! Keep Fighters, Pallys and Barbarians for dips.

Seriously though, Bard, Barbarian, Rogue and Ranger are all balanced classes (Tiers 3 or 4). So keeping them is nice.

[Socksy]

ban the problem spells and the problem classes. not the whole book.
So.. Keep the bard?

I really wanna sig this but I don't know if I have room! Can I try to sig this?

[holywhippet]

In banning the PHB for the players, are you banning it for the entire setting? That means no temples will have clerics (assuming there are even temples). Guards and soldiers will be equipped with... what exactly?

While there are plenty of overpowered classes in the PHB, there are plenty in the splatbooks as well. Worried about how broken the cleric is, meet the equally broken archivist class.

[Hiro Protagonest]

In banning the PHB for the players, are you banning it for the entire setting? That means no temples will have clerics (assuming there are even temples). Guards and soldiers will be equipped with... what exactly?

No clerics. Temples can exist without the cleric class you know. Experts are the most common priests, and Adepts tend to be the local healers. Healers and Favored Souls also exist.

Guards would be armed with shieldaxes and other exotic weapons. :smalltongue:

[AMFV]

No clerics. Temples can exist without the cleric class you know. Experts are the most common priests, and Adepts tend to be the local healers. Healers and Favored Souls also exist.

Guards would be armed with shieldaxes and other exotic weapons. :smalltongue:

It doesn't actually say it in the main, but Way of the Wicked is Pathfinder, so... Adepts, Experts, and thems is in the main book. Also there is actually no PHB, it's the core rulebook, I'd missed that.

[With a box]

so spellcasters cannot get dispell magic or cure wondes? it looks lame to me.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

so spellcasters cannot get dispell magic or cure wondes? it looks lame to me.

Healbots are overrated. Also, this opens up a ton of fun martial classes because they can't be overshadowed or made redundant by summon monster.

[atemu1234]

I don't ban anything out-of-hand. I allow my players an extreme amount of freedom, and it works out well. But my players aren't good examples, because they're inexperienced. Do what you will, but you won't be waiting long for complaints.

[Anlashok]

I really wanna sig this but I don't know if I have room! Can I try to sig this?

Absolutely.

[Vhaidara]

I'm just popping in to say this inspired me to try a PbP with Core banned (General feats and skills are the only things kept). It needs a GM, but if anyone's interested, recruitment is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?363624-3-5-No-Core-Game)

[Zanos]

Healbots are overrated. Also, this opens up a ton of fun martial classes because they can't be overshadowed or made redundant by summon monster.
It also kills pretty much every spellcasting class, because even the T3 fixed list casters and Warmage draw heavily or nearly entirely on core spells. As much as it pains me to say "think of the people who want to play casters..."

[Curmudgeon]

It also kills pretty much every spellcasting class, because even the T3 fixed list casters and Warmage draw heavily or nearly entirely on core spells. As much as it pains me to say "think of the people who want to play casters..."
I think it's worth trying. Play a Favored Soul. Pick up Spell Compendium and you've got a couple dozen Cleric spells at every level from 1 through 7 already. There are more spells in Complete Scoundrel, Complete Mage, Complete Champion, and Player's Handbook II. Yes, if you finally get to 9th level spells you'll have a short list to choose from; I'd hardly call that a serious impediment to playing without Player's Handbook spells.

[nedz]

You could draw up a short white list of spells and classes which are allowed from the PH.

Or you could draw up a, larger, black list of things which are banned.

[caimbuel]

I ran Way of the Wicked as a Mythic version. Had to radically change the monsters but your party may need power creep at points of the written adventure. It is one where if the players don't play very smart that can easily get overrun. I added mythic more to let my players truly go mad and wicked for once, little intrigue and role play, nice grab the power and smash the enemies with no drama.

if you are worried about OP, what I recommend is to keep pathfinder and 3.x separate at this junction. Some of the spells that pathfinder nerfed tend to truely bend the game, and the feats truely do like persistant spell and such.

YMMV, but PM or such if ya want, was a blast to run for me.

[Renen]

Whats this? PHB is banned? Hold on, let me get my StP erudite out.
Or my Sha'ir/Sainbow Servant
Or maybe 140% real shadow mage.

Silly DM is silly