PDA

View Full Version : 3rd Ed What spell do you like to open up with?



gooddragon1
2014-07-25, 04:19 AM
xxxxxxxxxxxx

eggynack
2014-07-25, 04:25 AM
The specifics tend to depend on level, and on situation, but all else being equal, I prefer to toss out some sort of battlefield control spell to start things off, or maybe a single target debuff if there's only one opponent. After your opponents are staggering under the weight of your spellcraft, that's when you take advantage of the newly slowed pace of battle to send in beatsticks, summoned or otherwise.

Inevitability
2014-07-25, 04:52 AM
Does nerveskitter count?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-07-25, 04:58 AM
Almost always some kind of battlefield control. For a Cleric, there are some really good domain spells like (Lesser Rod of Extended) Sleet Storm (Cold domain) and Black Tentacles (Slime domain). The general Cleric list has Ice Slick in Frostburn (pretty much the same as Grease), Hold Person, Sound Burst, and maybe a few others. If you can spend your first round of combat preventing multiple opponents from doing anything productive for several rounds, then you've given your party a huge action economy swing. Just a good, old-fashioned Turn Undead can be the most productive thing you can do to start a lot of fights, if you're any good at it.

If you don't have any decent battlefield control spells from domains, then it would really depend on the style of Cleric you're playing. Probably casting a really good buff on the party like Elation (BoED) or Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SC) (both can/should be persistent, though) or Haste if you have it from a domain are all really good choices. If your party has a single character who always rushes in first and gets focused on a lot, such as a Barbarian, then a defensive spell such as Shield of Faith on him would be beneficial. It would really depend on the type of character you're playing and what your party is up against.

With a box
2014-07-25, 04:59 AM
teleport (with contigent if need)
Do you wanna fight? I'll leave then.

nedz
2014-07-25, 04:59 AM
It depends upon the situation — why be predictable — but it will likely be a BC or Buff of some kind. There are occasions when something like "I teleport the party out of here" is the right course of action.

Know(Nothing)
2014-07-25, 05:03 AM
I'm playing a Dread Necro right now, and tactics change pretty rapidly based on level and type of threat.

Early on, it was a lot of Doom and Bane and Cause Fear and so forth. Then Blindness/Deafness a bit later-- crashed an enemy leader riding a griffon into a mountainside with that one. Always a good choice to start.

My first Advanced Learning got me Kelgore's Grave Mist(of course) and it's fantastic to start things off in almost any situation. No Save fatigue? Chargers, brutes, mooks-- this can pretty much stop combat in its tracks in the right arena.

My second Advanced Learning I went with one that for some reason never gets mentioned for a DN-- Pronouncement of Fate. Look it up if you aren't familiar. It isn't even a Save or Suck, it's a Save And You'll Still Probably Suck. This one is better as a response to an ambush, since it works better when you're personally slighted first.

Part of the reason I love DNs is that, even with their super-limited list, they still have some awesome haymakers to toss out. And if they aren't needed or don't fit the fight, debuffs are always helpful, which they have in spades. A lot of good opening options.

KillianHawkeye
2014-07-25, 05:42 AM
Well I don't have a ton of experience playing a Cleric, but I am currently playing my first Wizard. Just hit 7th level and got my first 4th level spells!

In trying to roleplay my freakishly high Intelligence score, I am constantly analyzing the situation to make the most efficient usage of my spells (as well as evaluating the usefulness of whichever spells I am preparing). Therefore, my first spell of an encounter varies depending on the situation (things like number of hostiles, terrain, and distance between us) as well as what sort of creatures we are dealing with (so I can make an educated guess about their likely weaknesses). I try to choose the spell that will have the greatest benefit for my team, either shutting down the opponent or hindering them enough to give my teammates a big enough advantage to win the fight.

At lower levels, there was a lot of Grease and Glitterdust, and I still keep those around because they just don't stop being useful. But now I have stuff like Solid Fog and Evard's Black Tentacles, or Haste if I feel like the Fighters can take care of things. My list of prepared spells is usually around half battlefield control, half utility with a couple of combat buffs thrown in.

gooddragon1
2014-07-25, 06:12 AM
Interesting replies. Nerveskitter does technically count but I'd wager it isn't all you'll be doing with it's casting time.

Forgot about blindness/deafness.

On an unrelated note: Don't you know you never split the party clerics in the back keep the clerics hale and hearty. Clerics in the middle where they can shed some light, and you never let that damn cleric of Olidammara out of sight. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUMCIn2swTU) (An all cleric party with the right domains :D)

prufock
2014-07-25, 06:17 AM
I'll base this on various casters I've played in the last couple of years.

Bard level 6-8: Grease, Glitterdust, or Alter Self (if I have time and haven't already cast it). My most recent bard was more a debuffer than buffer, though, so I'd generally have long-term buffs like AS, Heroism, and Heroics cast before anything happened.

Sorcerer/Dread Mage/Nightmare Spinner level 18-19: Often this would be a Fear spell to start, while my familiar played his Drums of Panic, and we stacked fear effect upon fear effect upon fear effect. Alternatively, Wall of Force to split up the enemy and protect the party.

Wizard (conjurer) level 8-10 ish: Either summon the best monster I could (Rapid Summoning variant) or some sort of battlefield control spell, particularly Evard's Black Tentacles.

Warlock/Binder level 4-6: Baleful Utterance on any and all items the enemy possessed that didn't ping as magical. On humanoids this was great as it got rid of their weapon and forced save vs daze and deafness.

Daishain
2014-07-25, 06:31 AM
Hint, as a sorcerer/psion/cerebremancer with my limited number of known spells/manifestations, I have one AOE BFC spell at every single spell level, and a number of single target save or sucks. Glitterdust and/or grease are common opening moves, while I save the stuff like Evard's black tentacles and hold monster for tougher opponents. My second round, if allies are in a good position, is often Mass Snake's Swiftness, four extra attack actions in exchange for one spell can be quite effective, and it puts more of the focus on the rest of the group rather than my flashy nonsense.

Another trick I like depends on the fact that most of my party has some ability to see in complete darkness. The psionic manifestation Control Light lets me make any group of opponents without it that failed to bring along light sources of their own effectively blind (IE, pretty much all light dependent creatures encountered above ground), with no save at all possible.

Amphetryon
2014-07-25, 07:21 AM
Any of the various Cloud spells - even Obscuring Mist at low levels - work pretty well as an opening salvo to increase tactical advantage.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-07-25, 07:25 AM
Any of the various Cloud spells - even Obscuring Mist at low levels - work pretty well as an opening salvo to increase tactical advantage.

Wall of Smoke, one of the best 1st level spells ever.

Amphetryon
2014-07-25, 07:29 AM
Wall of Smoke, one of the best 1st level spells ever.

Where's the "like" button around here?

Hiro Quester
2014-07-25, 10:11 AM
My bard/sublime chord is always torn between buffing allies and debuffing enemies. I have good initiative bonuses, and can usually convince my allies to delay their turn until after I buff them and/or debuff enemies. So I often get to go first.

Having Harmonize running enables bardic music as a move action. Having Arcane Spellsurge running enables standard action casting as swift actions.

So I'm usually using my first move action to either sing a song to buff allies (Inspire Courage, Dragonfire Inspiration, inspire greatness), or against a single target, use Doomspeak, probably the best single-target debuff there is (-10 on all saves, attack and skill rolls).

And for casting (swift action), either hit the enemies with Wages of Sin (up to CL evil creatures within line of sight fight one another instead of attacking our good/neutral party), or buff our party with Empyreal Ecstasy (everyone is immune to mind affecting, pain etc. and take half damage from melee; everyone is -4 on skills and must best 15 concentration to cast, but that isn't a serious problem for anyone).

Then I can use a standard action to hit the enemies again with a metamagiced spell (sculpt spell disintegrate to hit four enemies instead of one). Or use a Tempo bloodspike to get an extra move action, and move in to touch/cast Otto's Irresistable dance on the Doomspeaked enemy.

Then I can often use Celerity to get another spell off, while Doomspeak is active. Sculpted Radiant Assault is good since it can Daze those who take damage.

Then my buffed allies can go in and mop up.

Edit: Haste. How could I forget to mention casting Haste as a necessary first-round action? I'd normally do that rather than empyreal exctasy. Extra attacks for all allies + Dragonfire inspiration = more win.

Jaklefire
2014-07-25, 10:13 AM
I play a druid with a bear warrior in my party
Animal growth is extremely helpful, i always cast it first

hymer
2014-07-25, 02:14 PM
@ Biffoniacus_Furiou & Amphetryon: Could one of you spell out the way to use it effectively? At first glance it seems as annoying for the party as for the foe; blocks line of sight, melee can't charge, archers can't shoot, casters can't target. I can see a great use if you're surprised (but not too surprised) and need time to regroup or buff. But most fights your allies would rather be at the enemies' throat, wouldn't they? And in most dungeons, you'd rather the enemy doesn't run off and get help. WoS will give them cover to do just that.
Am I missing something?

Amphetryon
2014-07-25, 02:25 PM
@ Biffoniacus_Furiou & Amphetryon: Could one of you spell out the way to use it effectively? At first glance it seems as annoying for the party as for the foe; blocks line of sight, melee can't charge, archers can't shoot, casters can't target. I can see a great use if you're surprised (but not too surprised) and need time to regroup or buff. But most fights your allies would rather be at the enemies' throat, wouldn't they? And in most dungeons, you'd rather the enemy doesn't run off and get help. WoS will give them cover to do just that.
Am I missing something?

Wall of Smoke - as the low level example - is the combat opener because it immediately hampers enemies who are charging toward you through the single opening, or forces enemies who have a variety of openings from which to choose to eliminate one of those options, or allows your party an extra round worth of actions with which to prepare. The first two are the essence of BFC spells. The third is useful if not everyone made their Spot/Perception checks and would otherwise be unable to act in a surprise round, because intelligent use of the spell forces the enemy to 'waste' the surprise round in re-positioning for a clear avenue of attack; it's also useful so that, for example, the party's other caster(s) can use the time for long casting-time spells, like one of the SNA line, without being as vulnerable during the casting.

nedz
2014-07-25, 02:39 PM
Wall of Smoke - as the low level example - is the combat opener because it immediately hampers enemies who are charging toward you through the single opening, or forces enemies who have a variety of openings from which to choose to eliminate one of those options, or allows your party an extra round worth of actions with which to prepare. The first two are the essence of BFC spells. The third is useful if not everyone made their Spot/Perception checks and would otherwise be unable to act in a surprise round, because intelligent use of the spell forces the enemy to 'waste' the surprise round in re-positioning for a clear avenue of attack; it's also useful so that, for example, the party's other caster(s) can use the time for long casting-time spells, like one of the SNA line, without being as vulnerable during the casting.

I normally use Silent Image when I want to do that, but then I normally play spontaneous casters.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-07-25, 02:40 PM
@ Biffoniacus_Furiou & Amphetryon: Could one of you spell out the way to use it effectively? At first glance it seems as annoying for the party as for the foe; blocks line of sight, melee can't charge, archers can't shoot, casters can't target. I can see a great use if you're surprised (but not too surprised) and need time to regroup or buff. But most fights your allies would rather be at the enemies' throat, wouldn't they? And in most dungeons, you'd rather the enemy doesn't run off and get help. WoS will give them cover to do just that.
Am I missing something?

You don't put it directly between the party and your opponents, wall spells are used to divide the encounter so you only face a few enemies at once. For Wall of Smoke, you can cast it at an angle across several opponents' occupied squares, so they immediately have to save vs being nauseated. Make sure at least one of the opponents is on your party's side of the wall, so either they're isolated from their allies and can be singled out by your damage dealers or they have to go through the wall to rejoin them, risking being nauseated. Any enemy ranged attackers will be forced to fire through the wall or move through it, while your party takes care of the melee opponents.

Miss Disaster
2014-07-25, 03:17 PM
I use Wall of Smoke a lot. It's a *situationally* terrific spell. And even amongst experienced gamers, it causes the occasional rules debate regarding its grid orientation and AoE.

It even scales fairly well for a 1st level spell. While the nauseating effect eventually will rarely trigger, the concealment, charge-breaking, formation-disrupting and sight-blocking effects stays effective. And since you can finagle some precision line placements at a decent range (in the mid-to-higher levels), it keeps its tactical value as a first level slot.

In essence, it's all about causing customized tactical disruption and battlefield control ... with a secondary nauseating effect that you could care less about whether it works or not.

Chaosvii7
2014-07-25, 03:52 PM
Evard's Black Tentacles is usually my go-to. I play a lot of gish and I love battlefield control, and that's really the one spell that seems to be able to last into the game, because it can scale ridiculously.

My next favorite opening spell is Divine Power, for the BAB increase.

I just really like playing Gish.

Pex
2014-07-25, 06:53 PM
My group plays Pathfinder. My Oracle will start every combat with Blessing Of Fervor whenever possible. I find it the best buff spell of the game. Always useful. Everyone benefits. Standing up from prone as a swift action without provoking an attack of opportunity has proven to be a great asset to the party.

hymer
2014-07-26, 06:32 AM
@ Biff & Amph: Thanks for the pointers on Wall of Smoke! That makes sense.

sleepyphoenixx
2014-07-26, 07:17 AM
Usually BFC. Entangle or Impeding Stones, a wall or fog or Kelpstrand are probably what i use most often as an opener, depending on enemies.
At higher levels a quickened BFC followed by either a rapid summon or a dispel, again depending on the opposition.

SinsI
2014-07-26, 09:20 AM
Holy Word.
Having a lot of caster level boosts makes it an excellent opening spell, destroying and paralyzing almost everything.