Any way to increase my effective size for using a weapon?

[Odessa333]

Hey!

I'm looking for ideas of how someone could use a weapon in the next size up category (such as S using M, or M using L). I can't use Enlarge spell (too easy, sadly) and I can't use the impact weapon enchantment.... but those are the only ideas I've been able to come up with so far. Any one know of something I've over looked?

[Jormengand]

Unfortunately 3rd party, but you might be allowed it. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/kobold-press/combat-feats---3rd-party---kobold-press/lighten-weapon-combat)

[StreamOfTheSky]

For 3rd party, the Half-Giant psionic race retains their powerful build.

For within pathfinder, there's the Lead Blades spell to make your weapons effectively larger, rather than make you larger along with them. And Gravity Bow for bows.

There's also the Titan Mauler Barbarian archetype, but last I knew, its horrible wording left its big weapon wielding ability useless by RAW (iirc, you can't heft a Large 2H weapon, which would be the whole point of going that route).

[Erik Vale]

Goblin gunner lets you count as medium for guns... It's rather narrow though.

[Lightlawbliss]

shapechange (not sure if alterself/polymorph would get it) into something with powerful build.

[Tohsaka Rin]

One level of Aegis, and the Powerful Build customization is all you need.

[The Grue]

Let me just pre-empt the inevitable suggestion by saying this now:

Monkey Grip doesn't work that way.

If someone comes along and suggests it, they are wrong.

That is all.

[Doorhandle]

For 3rd party, the Half-Giant psionic race retains their powerful build.

For within pathfinder, there's the Lead Blades spell to make your weapons effectively larger, rather than make you larger along with them. And Gravity Bow for bows.

There's also the Titan Mauler Barbarian archetype, but last I knew, its horrible wording left its big weapon wielding ability useless by RAW (iirc, you can't heft a Large 2H weapon, which would be the whole point of going that route).

Still works if you use a large one-handed weapon, like a bastard sword.

[Odessa333]

Very nice!

I think Leaf Blades will work best for this, but lots of ammunition here for later. Thanks!

[grarrrg]

[Titan Mauler stuff]Still works if you use a large one-handed weapon, like a bastard sword.

Yes, but you still need Exotic Weapon (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qut) Prof to do this with a Bastard Sword.

[caimbuel]

Half Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant) with expansion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/expansion) has my Psy War doing 4d8 with her Bastard Sword and 3d6 with her short sword.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, but you still need Exotic Weapon (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qut) Prof to do this with a Bastard Sword.

And after all that...you're still not much higher damage than just using a greatsword anyway. No need for a feat or a special class feature.

If only Titan Mauler let you just straight up have powerful build. Too simple and useful, I guess.

[bekeleven]

I'm looking for ideas of how someone could use a weapon in the next size up category (such as S using M, or M using L).


Let me just pre-empt the inevitable suggestion by saying this now:

Monkey Grip doesn't work that way.

If someone comes along and suggests it, they are wrong.

That is all.


a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands.

What am I misreading?

I get that monkey grip isn't default PF legal.

But how does it not work that way?

[Yanisa]

What am I misreading?

I get that monkey grip isn't default PF legal.

But how does it not work that way?

Well you can always pick up an large weapon and using it, the feat does nothing in regard. I believe people tend to think you need to feat in order to pick up larger weaponns.

It does allow you to use large two-handed weapons, but that is not that interesting, and bastards sword (also a feat cost) do the same thing in damage terms.


Half Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant) with expansion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/expansion) has my Psy War doing 4d8 with her Bastard Sword and 3d6 with her short sword.

Do the Psionic Books have an extended weapon table? Or is that homebrewed in back from 3.5?

[The Grue]

What am I misreading?

I get that monkey grip isn't default PF legal.

But how does it not work that way?

The joke is that Monkey Grip often gets brought up in the context of wielding bigger weapons, and that it is more often than not is misinterpreted.

[Odessa333]

I'm giving this a bump.


I'm trying to find ways to increase the size still, and a friend of mine says there is still at least one more way he knows of, but isn't saying. I assume he's telling the truth, but short of going down the list of reading every spell and feat, I can't think of anything else. I'm likely going to be looking for this obscure.... power or whatever until I find it, but if anyone else has ideas to look into I'm very much open to them!

[bekeleven]

Well you can always pick up an large weapon and using it, the feat does nothing in regard... It does allow you to use large two-handed weapons
:smallconfused:

The joke is that Monkey Grip often gets brought up in the context of wielding bigger weapons, and that it is more often than not is misinterpreted.
But in this case..?

[The Grue]

But in this case..?

In this case you're brutally murdered the joke, so well done.

[MrBright01]

Enlarge Person does the same, does it not? At least in Pathfinder it does...

EDIT: Ok, technically it makes you and weapon bigger, not lets you take a bigger weapon... but it gives the desired effect (bigger weapon), so I figured I would mention it. In theory, you could carry around a Large weapon and only draw it after casting the spell... except the weapon would now be Huge unless you take the time to drop it. Be that's what your friend was thinking of.

[Yanisa]

Enlarge Person does the same, does it not? At least in Pathfinder it does...

EDIT: Ok, technically it makes you and weapon bigger, not lets you take a bigger weapon... but it gives the desired effect (bigger weapon), so I figured I would mention it. In theory, you could carry around a Large weapon and only draw it after casting the spell... except the weapon would now be Huge unless you take the time to drop it. Be that's what your friend was thinking of.

The problem being that pathfinder doesn't have weapon tables for huge weapons, unlike 3.5. We ran into a similar issue with our barbarian who has a large bastard sword and in the end forfeited enlarge person. You either port the tables back from 3.5, or you search for the a huge creature (mostly giants) with the same weapon as you (haven't seen a bastard sword though). But basically in a strict pathfinder game, or PFS (which I play), you cant get huge weapons... :smallsigh:

Edit: Impact Weapon Enchantment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/impact) increases your weapons damage die as if it increases a size. +2 Bonus... pretty great.

Doesn't stack with lead blades though (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg#v5748eaic9qx4)... what kind of... :smallmad:

[grarrrg]

a friend of mine says there is still at least one more way he knows of, but isn't saying.

You either missed something here, he's jerking your chain, or it's some weird/random as all heck thing that barely qualifies.
Or it's 3rd party.



The problem being that pathfinder doesn't have weapon tables for huge weapons, unlike 3.5.

I'd just use Strong Jaw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/strong-jaw) as a reference point.
It even provides for going larger than Colossal should you get to that point.

[Odessa333]

You either missed something here, he's jerking your chain, or it's some weird/random as all heck thing that barely qualifies.
Or it's 3rd party.

At this point, I tend to agree. I've ruled out size increases (Enlarge person, righteous might), I've found a few potential spells (Lead Blades, Strong Jaw, Animal aspect:gorilla, and yes, even asked if he was thinking of monkey grip) even tried things like giant form and form of Dragon stuff. I just can't find anything else that increases effective size and/or damage die (in case that's what he was thinking). I pressed him again about it last night, and at this point I think he's just giving me a hard time. Which you know, really annoys me as I've spent a lot of time looking into this. Oy.

[Anlashok]

And after all that...you're still not much higher damage than just using a greatsword anyway. No need for a feat or a special class feature.

If only Titan Mauler let you just straight up have powerful build. Too simple and useful, I guess.

RAI is that Titan Mauler does and there was some sort of miscommunication or error in the final text the author hoped to get fixed in errata or an FAQ.

Then Paizo veto'd him and doubled down on the current, borderline-useless version.

[Yanisa]

I'd just use Strong Jaw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/strong-jaw) as a reference point.
It even provides for going larger than Colossal should you get to that point.

Except the Strong Jaw table is the one from Natural Attacks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks) edited in by the editors of D20PFSRD, and does not correlate with weapons at all (the whole 2d6->2d8->4d6 part). So its not in the books, and the version that is in the book is in the Bestiary and thus GM only. (Ignoring the RAW issues with Strong Jaw and colossal... but I rather stick to RAI and don't poke hornet nests.)

Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/improved-natural-attack)at least has a table based of 3.5 weapon tables and follows the basic logic weapons use, rather then PF natural weapons. Which is both confusing and stupid. And again its meant for natural attacks and sadly cannot substitute for a RAW weapon table.

Neither case helps my party with huge weapons, nor anyone in PFS. In my case the next campaign will be less harsh on the rules, I hope, because the reason we did it was for a new player and we wanted to keep it simple for him (although we do have a rule lawyer in the party). I am still hoping that there is a way without refering 3.5 or natural weapons to gain huge weapons, and best I found were the odd giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants/giant-true/giant-taiga) which really limits weapon options... I secretly hoped one of the more famous third parties have such a table, but I guess not.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd just use Strong Jaw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/strong-jaw) as a reference point.
It even provides for going larger than Colossal should you get to that point.

Except for the problem that Strong Jaw's table is wrong in some places. Use the core Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/improved-natural-attack) for reference instead.

SJ has 2d6 going to 2d8, it should be going to 3d6. It later gets back on track with 4d6 for the next increase (correct), but....if it does become 2d8, then the next increase should've been 3d8....

It's generic rule for beyond gargantuan/colossal size (double it instead) works out for the dice values it lists (2d6, 2d8, 4d6) technically, but there's probably situations where it leads to errors.

EDIT: How did I not see the last post? That's not even a ninja, that's me failing a perception check.

[grarrrg]

Except the Strong Jaw table is the one from Natural Attacks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks) edited in by the editors of D20PFSRD, and So its not in the books, and the version that is in the book is in the Bestiary and thus GM only.

The fact that Paizo has multiple Dice Progressions based on "1d6" is by itself an issue.


does not correlate with weapons at all (the whole 2d6->2d8->4d6 part).

Have you looked at the weapon table (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html#_table-6-5-tiny-and-large-weapon-damage) for Tiny/Medium/Large?
The WEAPONS do not correlate with Weapons at all!

Each ">" means 1 size increase, (and skipping the fact that "Small" is not included, because honestly, that just makes it WORSE):
They all at least seem to agree that 1 > 1d2 > 1d3 > 1d4 > 1d6
1d6 usually leads to 1d8, except in the case of 1d4 > ? > 2d4, but 2d4 mostly equals 1d8 anyway.
Except that a Medium 1d8 > 2d6, but a Tiny 1d8 > ? > 2d6
Likewise a Medium 1d10 > 2d8, but a Tiny 1d10 > ? > 2d8


Except for the problem that Strong Jaw's table is wrong in some places. Use the core Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/improved-natural-attack) for reference instead.

With nothing matching anything else, how do you determine which one is more "wrong"?


(Ignoring the RAW issues with Strong Jaw and colossal... but I rather stick to RAI and don't poke hornet nests.)

What issue would that be?



Even if we just use the "when at max, 2 size increases means double the damage" from Strong Jaw, that's still more consistent than anything else.

[Tohsaka Rin]

The Aegis class' customization 'Augmented Weapon' treats your weapon as if it were one size larger for damage purposes, but doesn't actually make it bigger. Nor does it stack with things that actually increase your size.

It does not mention anything about things that function like size-increases that don't actually change your size.

Sadly, you'll need 6 levels in the class to get it.

Happily, the class provides a lot of neat things to play with on the road to level 6.

[Yanisa]

The fact that Paizo has multiple Dice Progressions based on "1d6" is by itself an issue.

Have you looked at the weapon table (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html#_table-6-5-tiny-and-large-weapon-damage) for Tiny/Medium/Large?
The WEAPONS do not correlate with Weapons at all!

Each ">" means 1 size increase, (and skipping the fact that "Small" is not included, because honestly, that just makes it WORSE):
They all at least seem to agree that 1 > 1d2 > 1d3 > 1d4 > 1d6
1d6 usually leads to 1d8, except in the case of 1d4 > ? > 2d4, but 2d4 mostly equals 1d8 anyway.
Except that a Medium 1d8 > 2d6, but a Tiny 1d8 > ? > 2d6
Likewise a Medium 1d10 > 2d8, but a Tiny 1d10 > ? > 2d8

With nothing matching anything else, how do you determine which one is more "wrong"?
Because those numbers correlate with the 3.5 numbers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize). So the fact the numbers aren't always logical means that we can use a completely different table with completely different logic.
Besides it's a legacy issue, most likely they assigned dice to weapons first and then later had to deal with size differences. That how we ended up with the 1d10 in Two-Handed only because someone assigned a 1d10 to a couple of two-handed weapon. And the weird 2d4 line, because someone designed a Falchion with 2d4.
In 3.5 there weren't even set rules for Natural Attacks, and monsters did whatever the writer wanted, at least Pathfinder streamlined that. But that's how pathfinder ended with 2 tables. One that is very organized and logic, because it wasn't bound by older editions, and one is a mess. :smalltongue:
Ignoring Improved Natural Attack, because someone didn't get the memo on the new natural attack table and just copy pasted a feat from 3.5...


Even if we just use the "when at max, 2 size increases means double the damage" from Strong Jaw, that's still more consistent than anything else.
The fact you need to be gargantuan or colossal... Not treating your natural attacks as if they are gargantuan or colossal sized weapons. Yes the argument is stupid, yes thats the Rule Lawyer I have to deal with and no, I didn't had a witty comeback. I ignored it because no one in my group is even going to use, let alone abuse size increases for natural attacks. My poor monk though.

Yeah, once a set of dice has settled on a set of d6 or a d8, they tend to increasing 1.5 per step, or double per 2 steps. Pathfinder even used that logic with its new natural attacks, but then decided to alternate between d6 and d8, rather then settling.