Level Adjusmtent Buyoff - What do you as a DM think of it?

[Wacky89]

Hey as title.
I was just discussing with one of my players if I could change my mind on la buyoff.
I really think the price is so small compared to the pay off.
What do you guys think?

The template he wanted was Shadow-Walker from Unapprochable East

[Red Fel]

Well, part of the problem is that, generally, anything with an LA (other than LA +0) isn't worth the trade-off. Losing out on class levels generally hurts more than whatever benefit the LA grants you.

LA buyoff essentially says, "You can have this benefit, and it won't cripple you, but you'll receive delayed gratification in your class levels." Which, in my mind, is a reasonable trade-off. Within limits.

I love templates. And there are plenty of nice base races with an LA, templates with an LA, and so forth. That said, as I mentioned, there are limits. If you start with a race with LA, then stack three templates with LA on top of that, and a couple of LA +0 templates to boot, I'm probably going to veto it, buyoff or no buyoff. Limits.

But if you want to take an LA +2 race, or an LA +1 template, and your character concept sounds interesting, and you don't want to be crippled in the long run? I think it's a fine choice.

My general policy, as it is with many things, is a presumption of acceptance with exceptions, rather than a presumption of exclusions. That is, the players are welcome to propose almost anything by default; I'm a fairly accepting DM, but reserve the right to the occasional veto as needed. LA buyoff is a part of that, and I will generally allow it, again within reason.

Now, as to your specific case, Shadow-Walker is LA +1, if I recall correctly. It grants SLAs, a Dex bonus and a Con penalty, Darkvision and light sensitivity, and a Hide boost. All in all, reasonable for LA +1. The ability modifiers balance out, the Hide bonus is minor, the SLAs are nice, but the light sensitivity is a stark penalty. And, in my mind, that makes it reasonable for buyoff. That light sensitivity will hurt the character as-is; no need to add insult to injury by holding them back while the rest of the class graduates.

I also note that the character might have the goal of entering the Telflammar Shadowlord PrC, which either requires the template or spellcasting ability. Frankly, if he wants to slow his progression in order to get into that PrC, I see no problem with letting him buy off the adjustment. It's great flavor!

[Gabrosin]

I support the rule as both a player and a DM. Frankly I would prefer the rule be less harsh for high LAs (+3 and beyond).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I like LA buyoff as both a player and a DM because it makes level adjusted races and templates playable in the mid to high levels. If someone has a unique and fun character idea that they're discouraged from using due to its level adjustment and they just go with a human instead, then the game mechanics have failed.

Granted I usually play high optimization, and I can see why someone would think the cost to buy off a +1 LA is too low. In that case, just house rule the following sentence from the LA buyoff rules:
"Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment or six, whichever is higher, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1."

[Inevitability]

It gives players more room to build the character they want. I have no problems with it.

Corner cases are people using it for stuff like Half-Minotaur or White Dragonspawn, in which case I don't think I would allow it as those templates beat taking a level in a class anyways.

[Tetraplex]

I've been trying it a slightly different way to mesh with my group's unusual ability score rule. We have it that you can either roll 4d6 drop lowest and reroll ones, or you can have 32 point buy. To that end, LA reduces the point buy total and locks you into that method. Then you can buy it off to recover your missing points. It's more forgiving that way, but I'm the only power gamer of any substance in the group anyway, so abuse is unlikely.
-sent from my phone-

[Curmudgeon]

Races and templates with level adjustments provide benefits and costs (the LA) that are supposed to be comparable when you get them. However, the relative value of the benefits (ability changes, other stuff) to the character diminishes with more experience (i.e., higher level abilities are more powerful), while the cost (being behind other characters) increases because the gap between levels is worth more XP the higher you go. Level adjustment buyoff resolves that fairly well, because the cost of the buyoff is scaled to experience (less XP cost at lower levels and lower LA, more at higher levels).

I'm in favor both from a player and from a DM perspective.

[WhamBamSam]

Chalk me up as in favor of LA buyoff as well. I really, really, dislike the punitive approach that WotC took towards playing monstrous characters, and the classes/concepts that are most likely to benefit from the LA buyoff tend to be the ones that need the boost.

[AMFV]

I'm definitely in favor of it, as the things that are worth level adjustments become less and less unbalancing later on in the game, and the value of levels increase. So your level adjustment becomes worth less and costs you more later in the game, which sucks.

[Windstorm]

I'm personally in favor of it, though I agree with the statements that it is too punitive on higher LAs, so the common house rule I use is to replace the 3x multiplier in the buyoff rules with 2x

this still discourages the more powerful monster races and/or template stacking (which get vetoed anyway usually), but allows for more flexibility in playing interesting characters. personally I think that there is a better system to be had than level adjustments and buyoffs for such things, but without a well-written alternative system I make do with the buyoff.

[OldTrees1]

I recognize that not all things with LA are worth their LA (in fact little is worth it). I also recognize that most things with LA are not worth their LA even given LA buyoff. Since the scales start so unbalanced for most cases, I encourage my players by working with them to reduce LA until it is worthwhile.

When I DM I usually let the optimizers and powergamers use LA buyoff rules and then ad-hoc reduce the LA of the other players' races. While this seems unfair, optimizers are more likely to avoid WotC's traps.

[Thurbane]

We're using this rule in my current campaign (just starting this one), and the Catfolk Rogue/Swashbuckler will be taking advantage of it.

[pwykersotz]

I like buyoff and I allow it...with one exception. If your template allows progression, that is if you keep getting more advancements as you level, you can't buy it off.

The reason for this is built right into the reason for LA buyoff. LA becomes less desirable with level because the benefits deteriorate. Progression offsets this and keeps the template relevant.

[AMFV]

I like buyoff and I allow it...with one exception. If your template allows progression, that is if you keep getting more advancements as you level, you can't buy it off.

The reason for this is built right into the reason for LA buyoff. LA becomes less desirable with level because the benefits deteriorate. Progression offsets this and keeps the template relevant.

I'd make sure you look carefully at said progressions, many of them (in fact I think all of them) are really terrible and I can't think of any that are worth one class level. Now you could require that players take levels of RHD to counterbalance the progression. But even that might be a mess.

[Kazyan]

I think that there is a better system to be had than level adjustments and buyoffs for such things, but without a well-written alternative system I make do with the buyoff.

One idea I've toyed with is replacing LA with mandatory levels of an NPC class of the PC's choice. It can't be a direct one-for-one translation, obviously, but it fixes some of the complaints about LA.

[pwykersotz]

I'd make sure you look carefully at said progressions, many of them (in fact I think all of them) are really terrible and I can't think of any that are worth one class level. Now you could require that players take levels of RHD to counterbalance the progression. But even that might be a mess.

Oh, I do. Mostly it ends up being the templates that provide spell-like abilities. 10 SLA's, several of them 8-9th level, sometimes amplified with magic in the blood to be 3/day. Circumstantially, this is worth a class level or two.

Of course nothing is absolute, but it's easier to have a clean and simple rule with a "talk to the GM" rider on it than try to detail every contingency.

[Windstorm]

One idea I've toyed with is replacing LA with mandatory levels of an NPC class of the PC's choice. It can't be a direct one-for-one translation, obviously, but it fixes some of the complaints about LA.

that sort of works, but then how do you handle such things as half-celestial, where the LA is large enough to become a problem even with that approach? Essentially you're advocating racial hit die, which while they do solve some of the problems create others, especially with the way RHD function in 3.5

[Blackhawk748]

I always use LA buyoff if someone has LA, unless it progresses as they level, like the Half-Fey. Then i recommend using the monster class to get what you want.

On another note i usually screw with the LA or the RHD anyway, in an attempt to make them balanced.

[VoxRationis]

What in the world IS LA buyoff, anyway? I hear about it all the time and have never seen it in the books I have.

[Curmudgeon]

LA buyoff is explained in Unearthed Arcana (pages 18-19) and also here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).

[Hecuba]

My 2 electrum:

LA buyoff is valuable in high system mastery games (where vastly expands the tools you have to represent an idea), and questionable in low system mastery games (where it often adds another veneer of mechanical intricacy to a situation where mechanics are likely being deliberately downplayed).

[Flickerdart]

LA buyoff is a decent patch to a terrible system. In my mind, templates with LA should work more like Half-Fey/Phrenic, where the decreasing significance of higher ability scores and low-level immunities is offset by gaining level-appropriate powers. This way, LA-adjusted PCs don't get free stuff by eventually catching up, but instead receive a different (and ideally, proportionate) benefit from XP.