Tippy

[.Zero]

I recently heard this name mentioned a lot of times here, so i started wondering: Who is he? Why is he so famous on these boards? What is the tippyverse?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy)

Apart from that, he's generally well known for his extremely-high-optimization advice.

[Melcar]

Tippy is a guy with a PHD in D&D. Someone who have beat the game. Someone who knows the game better than the designers!!!

[heavyfuel]

I recently heard this name mentioned a lot of times here, so i started wondering: Who is he? Why is he so famous on these boards? What is the tippyverse?

His full name (in the forums) is Emperor Tippy. He's famous for being one hell of an optimizer. The tippyverse is a setting that he created that takes magic into account from the get go, instead of slapping a layer of it on top of a regular medieval setting. You can read about it here:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy

[TheDarkDM]

Tippy is a guy whose group plays at a level of optimization far beyond that exercised by the majority of the people who play D&D. As such, he is one of the more respected voices when it comes to both practical and theoretical optimization, though his suggestions should always be filtered through your groups optimization level.

As for the Tippyverse, it's a campaign setting created to represent a world where the RAW of D&D are taken to their logical conclusion, which ends up with a number of massive cities rendered near post-scarcity by means of traps and ruled by high (epic?) level casters. There is more to it, of course, but that's the gist.

[Ionbound]

Tippy is love, Tippy is life.

[eggynack]

He's a man, well, more than a man really, more like a legend. Some say that he invented optimization, but others say, "What? No, that doesn't even make any sense." Tippy is the emperor of dungeons and dragons, and he came by that title by right, and by heart, and by privilege. There is little we can say for certain about this enigmatic man, but in out hearts we know that he is the brilliance of a flickering candle in the instant before it snuffs out, the calm in the eye of every storm, and the oblivion that waits for the end of us all.

[ryu]

Tippy is a guy with a PHD in D&D. Someone who have beat the game. Someone who knows the game better than the designers!!!

You say that last bit like it's hard?

[kardar233]

Tippy is the kind of person who posts step-by-step, itemized guides to killing greater deities (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12959325&postcount=115).

People post new ridiculous TO builds and Tippy's like "yeah, we've had that in play for a while in my old group, it's weak to [ridiculously complex but awesome rules exploit] so it got killed off in the second session".

[137beth]

We had a "Real Tippy Facts" thread in SMBG based on Chuck Norris Facts (it's been purged due to age, I think.)

[Phelix-Mu]

I recently heard this name mentioned a lot of times here, so i started wondering: Who is he? Why is he so famous on these boards? What is the tippyverse?

I believe the "Forum Members Statted as Deities" thread (that's not the name but can't search right now) had Tippy as the God of Optimization.

Three things courtesy of Tippy that have blown my mind:

1.) Psions are more powerful than wizards in high-op.

2.) Self-resetting magical traps of ice assassin of a gargantuan animated object shrunken down to fine size. It has enough HD to take epic feats, give it Permanent Emanation (planar bubble) to a slow time plane. I really don't have Kn(RAW) levels to know if this works, but it was a convincing argument for how 3e allows for temporal stasis grenades. Keep the shrunken objects in an AMF, deploy on unsuspecting enemies.

3.) Cities made entirely out of warforged psion 20 ice assassins that have been PaO'd into granite blocks from which all structures are built. Extra points if they are overlapped with additional blocks located on the ethereal. Even more bonus points for linking these all together into a single construct that is then linked to a single groupmind of controllers than can coordinate actions of the whole city. Extra points if you can get to such a level without using the remainder of your limitless potential to totally unravel causality via psionic action economy shenanigans (a la The Terminator TO build).

[herrhauptmann]

The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy)

Apart from that, he's generally well known for his extremely-high-optimization advice.

You forgot the part where he's also very polite and courteous in giving his advice.

You'll often see optimizers who use various builds, even TO builds in regular play games. Some of them try to give advice when someone asks for help, but it mostly amounts to quoting from some guide/handbook and attacking the advice given by others.
Tippy doesn't do that.

[Raven777]

Tippy is the man Pun Pun fears.

[137beth]

Eggynack and Ryu are both Ice Assassins created by Tippy.

[WhamBamSam]

Everyone has a little bit of a mancrush on Tippy, even women, and especially the people who devote inordinate amounts of time to trying to disprove or discredit the things he says who should be showing up any minute now...


Tippy is a guy whose group plays at a level of optimization far beyond that exercised by the majority of the people who play D&D. As such, he is one of the more respected voices when it comes to both practical and theoretical optimization, though his suggestions should always be filtered through your groups optimization level.

As for the Tippyverse, it's a campaign setting created to represent a world where the RAW of D&D are taken to their logical conclusion, which ends up with a number of massive cities rendered near post-scarcity by means of traps and ruled by high (epic?) level casters. There is more to it, of course, but that's the gist.Not quite. The Tippyverse is a class of campaign settings based around permanent, large scale teleportation being taken to its logical conclusion. There is no single Tippyverse, and a mid-op or low-op Tippyverse is possible, as the only criterion is the massive redistribution of population into large city states connected by a network of permanent Teleportation Circles.


He's a man, well, more than a man really, more like a legend. Some say that he invented optimization, but others say, "What? No, that doesn't even make any sense." Tippy is the emperor of dungeons and dragons, and he came by that title by right, and by heart, and by privilege. There is little we can say for certain about this enigmatic man, but in out hearts we know that he is the brilliance of a flickering candle in the instant before it snuffs out, the calm in the eye of every storm, and the oblivion that waits for the end of us all.I see Tippy as a sort of Wizard (or Psion, because, y'know) to your Druid. You're sort of this calm, worldly, font of wisdom, whereas he's more of an ineffable mad genius from another plane. (That's meant as a compliment in both cases, and isn't intended to imply that one is necessarily better than the other.)


You say that last bit like it's hard?Seriously. That describes most people on these boards.

[eggynack]

Eggynack and Ryu are both Ice Assassins created by Tippy.
I can neither confirm nor deny this.

[Phelix-Mu]

I can neither confirm nor deny this.

Quite sensibly, they are more correctly said to be ice assassins of ice assassins of Tippy that were allowed to kill the original ice assassins. But, in Tippy-speak, this chain of redundancy is always implied.

It isn't the power of the power that is powerful, it is the power of how the power is exercised that is truly fearsome. And it is this "how" which is the true source of Tippy's win.

[Vhaidara]

Tippy is our lord and savior, the only (formerly) mortal man to reach the 20th level of wizard, where you acquire the hidden capstone of being able to cast spells within our world's dead magic field.

[Feint's End]

Tippy is love, Tippy is life.

I see what you did there and I'm both highly disturbed and highly curious at the same time.

[Madara]

I see Tippy as one of the Old gods, much like how we look upon famous posters from past DnD forums like Treantmonk and Dictum Mortuum. :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

You say that last bit like it's hard?

I concur. Tippy is good, but saying he knows the game better than the designers is a disservice.

[heavyfuel]

I concur. Tippy is good, but saying he knows the game better than the designers is a disservice.

Is it though? I'm pretty sure the Dysfunctional Rules thread are proof that the designers, or at least some of them, don't know the game very well.

[eggynack]

Is it though? I'm pretty sure the Dysfunctional Rules thread are proof that the designers, or at least some of them, don't know the game very well.
He means it's a disservice to Tippy.

[Snowbluff]

Is it though? I'm pretty sure the Dysfunctional Rules thread are proof that the designers, or at least some of them, don't know the game very well.

It's like saying the Hulk is "eh, kinda strong, I guess." :smalltongue:

[heavyfuel]

He means it's a disservice to Tippy.


It's like saying the Hulk is "eh, kinda strong, I guess." :smalltongue:

Ahhhhhhhh. Ok then... carry on :smallamused:

[Dalebert]

I prefer to pronounce his name similar to Timmy from South Park.

Tip-eeeehh!

[Snowbluff]

Ahhhhhhhh. Ok then... carry on :smallamused:
Yes, sir!

I prefer to pronounce his name similar to Timmy from South Park.

Tip-eeeehh!

Pft... okay, you got me to smile.

Never do it again.

[PraxisVetli]

Pft... okay, you got me to smile.

Never do it again.
Am I the only one that read that in O'Malley's voice from RvB?

[Mato]

I recently heard this name mentioned a lot of times here, so i started wondering: Who is he? Why is he so famous on these boards? What is the tippyverse?Tippy at a glance is what you'd call a rollplayer, meaning he has little to no rules knowledge and creativity. Honestly I wouldn't worry about it beyond a quick google search of his name if you feel the urge to really know.

[eggynack]

Tippy at a glance is what you'd call a rollplayer, meaning he has little to no rules knowledge and creativity. Honestly I wouldn't worry about it beyond a quick google search of his name if you feel the urge to really know.
I was going to put a big post together, but I'll leave it aside for the two main points. First, what you're saying is wildly inaccurate on just about every level. Second, this is going to end poorly.

[ryu]

I was going to put a big post together, but I'll leave it aside for the two main points. First, what you're saying is wildly inaccurate on just about every level. Second, this is going to end poorly.

I choose to believe it's just non-blue texted sarcasm. That way I can look at the inevitable fallout as something to be enjoyed rather than avoided.

[(Un)Inspired]

Tippy at a glance is what you'd call a rollplayer, meaning he has little to no rules knowledge and creativity. Honestly I wouldn't worry about it beyond a quick google search of his name if you feel the urge to really know.

Jealousy Powers Activate!

Form of... Disparaging remarks!

Shape of... Rude dismissal!

[eggynack]

I choose to believe it's just non-blue texted sarcasm. That way I can look at the inevitable fallout as something to be enjoyed rather than avoided.
It's plausible, I suppose. The phrasing doesn't seem particularly sarcastic, but plausible.

[ryu]

It's plausible, I suppose. The phrasing doesn't seem particularly sarcastic, but plausible.

The actual likelihood of truth is irrelevant. The important things are that it's not immediately something you have to lie to yourself to believe, that there is no penalty for being wrong in this instance, and that it will likely increase your net happiness while experiencing the fallout and allow fonder memories of the experience. Do you see a downside to the method?

[eggynack]

The actual likelihood of truth is irrelevant. The important things are that it's not immediately something you have to lie to yourself to believe, that there is no penalty for being wrong in this instance, and that it will likely increase your net happiness while experiencing the fallout and allow fonder memories of the experience. Do you see a downside to the method?
Not much, though I gotta admit that it's sometimes fun to be on the yelling at a guy side of things. I guess I could still yell about stuff, as a sort of odd forum theater, but that just feels kinda empty. I think my current plan is just to take the wait and see approach, wait for other folks to say things, and for whatever Mato says next. It could be interesting, in any case.

[Mato]

I was going to put a big post together, but I'll leave it aside for the two main points. First, what you're saying is wildly inaccurate on just about every level. Second, this is going to end poorly.I agree on the latter, but I am honest on the first and the overall point.

Google is your friend.

[eggynack]

I agree on the latter, but I am honest on the first and the overall point.

Google is your friend.
I've read things Tippy has said. A lot. The guy has pretty insanely intimate knowledge of the game, the ability to be intensely creative with that knowledge, and apparently, the capacity to play in internally consistent and logical games despite crazy levels of optimization. I don't know Tippy personally, and I've never seen him game, so I know nothing about his ability to roleplay, but then again, neither do you.

[A Tad Insane]

You know those infinite loop builds? The overly metamagic'ed spells that can kill cities with a 2nd level spell slot? Leadership? Everything people talk about on the forums but admit to never using because they're to powerful? Tippy is in a group, DM included, where such builds, tricks and strategies are laughed at for how weak they are. He's plays by the strictest RAW, with no mercy. He's also very polite and has some of the best system mastery ever, making him very educational to read

[Phelix-Mu]

Not much, though I gotta admit that it's sometimes fun to be on the yelling at a guy side of things. I guess I could still yell about stuff, as a sort of odd forum theater, but that just feels kinda empty. I think my current plan is just to take the wait and see approach, wait for other folks to say things, and for whatever Mato says next. It could be interesting, in any case.

While we are waiting, I propose a meta-level discussion about this meta-discussion about the actual, not-so-serious tenor of this thread. In short, how do you, eggy, and you, ryu, reflect iconic roles on forums generally, where the troll, flamer, anti-flamer, peacekeeper, and lurker roles are more represented than here at GitP (where things have always been, in my view, remarkably civil)?

Indeed, to go a step further, and risk some serious blue text, is not the nature of this give-and-take between antagonist of the general tenor of a thread and passive defender of said thread, rather emblematic of the nature of role player v optimizer conflict that occurs in games? Tippy may be an optimizer, but his comments are rarely interjected inappropriately in threads spec'd to be non-op based, and generally, while his comments spur creativity among others by pointing out the upper limits of the ruleset (whether valid or not), he is not outright worshiped or vilified outside of threads like this. Which aren't super-serious in the first place. Whether we defend optimizing or role playing as the higher of the game's virtues, the actual interesting bit of the dynamic is not the actual accuracy of either position (just as in the troll/flamer and the peacekeeper), but rather the dialectic fallout in which, despite the possibility of anarchy and meaningless prattle, just as often glimpses of wisdom, humor, or compromise (or at least acceptance of the need to disagree) emerge.

Just so, the game is a dialogue between sometimes confrontational approaches that, nevertheless, usually end up complementing each other around tables. Even around the role playing table, people usually try to be effective in their character design. And even Tippy's hyperbolic op tricks are seated in his deeper understanding of the logical limitations of the 3.5 setting (as he believes said limitations exist), and are exemplified in his rather remarkable Tippyverse (remarkable whether you love it or despise it...it is impressive either way).

See how I tied that up?:smallwink:

[Know(Nothing)]

I think the votes are in, Emperor Tippy can officially call himself Duly Elected Overlord Tippy.

[Graypairofsocks]

1.) Psions are more powerful than wizards in high-op.

Can someone explain to me why?

Is it related to the Psionic recharge trick?

[Erik Vale]

I think it's more due to Euradites allowing you to know all spells as a psion, and because of how manifesting works you end up being better in general.

[torrasque666]

he is not outright worshiped or vilified outside of threads like this.

Well..... there was that one guy who calls him Emperor Win. And I kind of have to agree with him on that one.

[eggynack]

While we are waiting, I propose a meta-level discussion about this meta-discussion about the actual, not-so-serious tenor of this thread. In short, how do you, eggy, and you, ryu, reflect iconic roles on forums generally, where the troll, flamer, anti-flamer, peacekeeper, and lurker roles are more represented than here at GitP (where things have always been, in my view, remarkably civil)?

Indeed, to go a step further, and risk some serious blue text, is not the nature of this give-and-take between antagonist of the general tenor of a thread and passive defender of said thread, rather emblematic of the nature of role player v optimizer conflict that occurs in games? Tippy may be an optimizer, but his comments are rarely interjected inappropriately in threads spec'd to be non-op based, and generally, while his comments spur creativity among others by pointing out the upper limits of the ruleset (whether valid or not), he is not outright worshiped or vilified outside of threads like this. Which aren't super-serious in the first place. Whether we defend optimizing or role playing as the higher of the game's virtues, the actual interesting bit of the dynamic is not the actual accuracy of either position (just as in the troll/flamer and the peacekeeper), but rather the dialectic fallout in which, despite the possibility of anarchy and meaningless prattle, just as often glimpses of wisdom, humor, or compromise (or at least acceptance of the need to disagree) emerge.

Just so, the game is a dialogue between sometimes confrontational approaches that, nevertheless, usually end up complementing each other around tables. Even around the role playing table, people usually try to be effective in their character design. And even Tippy's hyperbolic op tricks are seated in his deeper understanding of the logical limitations of the 3.5 setting (as he believes said limitations exist), and are exemplified in his rather remarkable Tippyverse (remarkable whether you love it or despise it...it is impressive either way).

See how I tied that up?:smallwink:
Yeah, these things can sometimes be pretty nifty. I think a prefer the last crop of crazy argument folk to whatever it is we have now though. Some of those old argument were tons o' fun, though some of the current stock are fun too. I've actually been vaguely considering putting together some odd variety of handbook on D&D arguing, after I'm done with the druid one. Probably wouldn't take nearly as long to do. It looks like we're past the point of theoretical sarcasm now though, so it seems that we are on the edge of crazy arguing time.

[ryu]

Can someone explain to me why?

Is it related to the Psionic recharge trick?

Ever heard of spell to power erudites and how one of their abilities is to teach other psionics users their powers known? That would be a start.

Edit: I still call my method successful. It let me skip the throwing up in my mouth a little phase and get straight to the waiting for the amusing argument phase.

[Emperor Tippy]

Can someone explain to me why?

Is it related to the Psionic recharge trick?

A Psion can end up knowing every single Psionic Power in the game along with every single Arcane spell and every single Divine spell with those arcane and divine spells being cast without material components or foci (and all also auto stilled and silent as well).

Then you have the various ways to get infinite power points, the Psion ability to shatter the action economy to the greatest extent of any class in the game, and all of the other small things that make the Psion even better.

Wizard is widely held to be the most powerful class simply because it has the best spell list in the game, well a Psion gets to take that spell list and the Cleric spell list and the Druid spell list, etc. and cast them all more spontaneously than a Sorcerer can cast his spells.

[Andezzar]

So it is true, if you all his name often enough, he will be summoned. :smallwink:

[torrasque666]

Awesome tippy stuff

So how many times do we have to say your name into the mirror with the sacrifice of a 3.5 developer and all the lights turned off to summon you?

[FidgetySquirrel]

It seems logical to assume at this point that the OP is now aware of who Tippy is and what the Tippyverse is. So I would just like to mention that there was once an attempt to debunk the Tippyverse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?327950-Debunking-the-Tippyverse)... sort of. It didn't end well.

[eggynack]

It seems logical to assume at this point that the OP is now aware of who Tippy is and what the Tippyverse is. So I would just like to mention that there was once an attempt to debunk the Tippyverse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?327950-Debunking-the-Tippyverse)... sort of. It didn't end well.
Huh. I forgot that that was a Jedipotter thread. That's something of some sort.

[torrasque666]

{Scrubbed}

[FidgetySquirrel]

To be fair, he only posted in the OP. Everything else was just a bunch of other users arguing about whether the Tippyverse makes sense without jedipotter.

[torrasque666]

So just like most of the Incident threads. Well, arguing and talking about random food-related topics.

[FidgetySquirrel]

So just like most of the Incident threads. Well, arguing and talking about random food-related topics.IIRC that thread stayed pretty well on topic, except it started to go from arguing about the Tippyverse to arguing about Tippy the person for some reason. I don't think there was much talk about Tippyportation Crockpots, for example.

[Graypairofsocks]

A Psion can end up knowing every single Psionic Power in the game along with every single Arcane spell and every single Divine spell with those arcane and divine spells being cast without material components or foci (and all also auto stilled and silent as well).

I know how the Psion can learn every psionic power because of Psychic Chirurgery and (Epic) Expanded Knowledge, but how does it learn all the spells?

[Psyren]

Tippyverse is, in a nutshell, the reason why every D&D setting includes gods (or similar proxies - Mists, Prophecy, what have you) to keep the world in check. (Because RAW sure as hell is useless at doing so.)

[Vhaidara]

I know how the Psion can learn every psionic power because of Psychic Chirurgery and (Epic) Expanded Knowledge, but how does it learn all the spells?

Spell to Power Erudite makes the spells into Powers, then Psychic Chirurgery them onto a psion

[Andezzar]

Bah. That was started by our favorite deranged loonie JP. No one takes him seriously anymore. Not after the Rudisplorking Incident.What's the Rudisplorking Incident?

[torrasque666]

I'd link, but i think the threads were locked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357981-Can-you-cheat-at-D-amp-D), removed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361669-Can-you-Rudisplork-at-D-amp-D-2-Sithsnape-and-the-Orcus-of-Secret-House-Rules), and burned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362029-Adventures-of-the-Rudisplork-Gulid).

I found them, so i linked em.

[FidgetySquirrel]

What's the Rudisplorking Incident?This. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361669-Can-you-Rudisplork-at-D-amp-D-2-Sithsnape-and-the-Orcus-of-Secret-House-Rules) There's a link to the first thread in the OP. It's quite the trainwreck, if you have the time to read it.


I'd link, but i think the threads were locked, removed, and burned.The links work fine for me.

I don't think I broke any forum rules with that link but... did I?

[ryu]

What's the Rudisplorking Incident?

One of JP's fairly recent threads from a few weeks back talking about cheating in D&D. We eventually came to the conclusion that he was speaking a different language than English comprised entirely of false cognates. Multiple of those false cognates were entirely contradictory uses of the word cheat.

[eggynack]

This. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361669-Can-you-Rudisplork-at-D-amp-D-2-Sithsnape-and-the-Orcus-of-Secret-House-Rules) There's a link to the first thread in the OP. It's quite the trainwreck, if you have the time to read it.
Indeed. Also notable due to time proximity, though not part of that thread line, are balancing bad mechanics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?356196-Balancing-bad-mechanics) and maybe how would you rule this spell combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357819-How-would-you-rule-this-spell-combo).


I don't think I broke any forum rules with that link but... did I?
Not to my knowledge, no.

[FidgetySquirrel]

One of JP's fairly recent threads from a few weeks back talking about cheating in D&D. We eventually came to the conclusion that he was speaking a different language than English comprised entirely of false cognates. Multiple of those false cognates were entirely contradictory uses of the word cheat.We also discussed the Stormwind Fallacy, optimization in general, spell fixes, houserule efficacy, DM-player relations, food optimization, Orcus, and many other seemingly unrelated, but somehow intertwined, topics. Somehow... it always came back to bat crap...


Indeed. Also notable due to time proximity, though not part of that thread line, are balancing bad mechanics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?356196-Balancing-bad-mechanics) and maybe how would you rule this spell combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357819-How-would-you-rule-this-spell-combo).It was quite the whirlwind of insanity, eh?

[torrasque666]

I think we should probably stop lest we summon Orcus.

[FidgetySquirrel]

I think we should probably stop lest we summon Orcus.Well, it is my offical Rudisplorker title! Besides, I'm more worried about the Homebrew Order of Darkness. I think this thread is starting to get a tad meta, or something...

[eggynack]

It was quite the whirlwind of insanity, eh?
Indeed. Not my favorite whirlwind, but a pretty good one.

[torrasque666]

Well, it is my official Rudisplorker title! Besides, I'm more worried about the Homebrew Order of Darkness. I think this thread is starting to get a tad meta, or something...


Is that what we're calling ourselves now? Or the game?

EDIT: added ze quote.

[Psyren]

Where did "rudisplork" come from anyway? Searching through those threads is doing me no good because nearly everybody who was involved seems to have the term in their sig now.

[Andezzar]

This. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361669-Can-you-Rudisplork-at-D-amp-D-2-Sithsnape-and-the-Orcus-of-Secret-House-Rules) There's a link to the first thread in the OP. It's quite the trainwreck, if you have the time to read it.
Thanks, but what does Rudisplork even mean?

[ryu]

We also discussed the Stormwind Fallacy, optimization in general, spell fixes, houserule efficacy, DM-player relations, food optimization, Orcus, and many other seemingly unrelated, but somehow intertwined, topics. Somehow... it always came back to bat crap...

It was quite the whirlwind of insanity, eh?

I think you'll find it always does. Even when it's not related to D&D. ESPECIALLY when it's not related to D&D.

[torrasque666]

Thanks, but what does Rudisplork even mean?


JP originally seemed to refer to "optimizing" as "cheating" , so someone called "optimizing" "rudisplorking"

[Andezzar]

I still don't get it. Nevermind, I don't get cats that proclaim their ability to have fast food either.

[Somensjev]

Thanks, but what does Rudisplork even mean?

it's a term that, iirc, kazudo came up with, he used it to mean "cheating/optimizing/munchkining", since JP could never seem to decide on what the word "cheat" meant
it then descended into meaning "whatever it's rudisplorker (speaker/person saying it) wants it to rudisplork (mean)"


at one point we actually had a definition of rudisplorking, and all it's derivatives, i could go hunting for a link to the post it's in

edit: i found a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17779712&postcount=3), for all those interested. it's just a single post, and the actual definition of rudisplorking is itself a link

[Snowbluff]

That's what I've taken it to mean. Being the Avatar of Rudisplork makes sense, considering my axiom and status as the Avatar of PC-dom.

[Graypairofsocks]

We also discussed the Stormwind Fallacy, optimization in general, spell fixes, houserule efficacy, DM-player relations, food optimization, Orcus, and many other seemingly unrelated, but somehow intertwined, topics. Somehow... it always came back to bat crap...

I think the creation of Grod's Law (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328767-More-realistic-D-amp-D-Economy/page4&p=17613518#post17613518) by Grod_The_Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?10688-Grod_The_Giant) was closely related to that thread.

[re_e]

A Psion can end up knowing every single Psionic Power in the game along with every single Arcane spell and every single Divine spell with those arcane and divine spells being cast without material components or foci (and all also auto stilled and silent as well).

Then you have the various ways to get infinite power points, the Psion ability to shatter the action economy to the greatest extent of any class in the game, and all of the other small things that make the Psion even better.

Wizard is widely held to be the most powerful class simply because it has the best spell list in the game, well a Psion gets to take that spell list and the Cleric spell list and the Druid spell list, etc. and cast them all more spontaneously than a Sorcerer can cast his spells.

The StP erudite needs verbal and somatic components to manifest his spells.


As with casting a spell, manifesting a spell may require certain components (see page 174 of the Player's Handbook). Some of the components remain unchanged, such as verbal, somatic, and XP cost.

Why the psion's powers are auto stilled/silent ? If they can be auto enlarged/extended/stilled/silent with the spell secret trick ?

1. Finds a wu jen with the wanted spell
2. Psychic reform/Chaos Shuffle four Extra Spell Secret feats
3. Permanently add Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Still Spell, and Silent Spell to the wanted spell
4. Learn the enlarged, extended, stilled and silent spell

Spell secret can be used with any spell know, not only wu jen spells.

There are probably other tricks for free metamagic, but this is the only one I know.

[Vhaidara]

My guess? That entry is specific to the erudite. Psion powers don't have any such restriction regarding verbal and somatic components.

[Snowbluff]

I think the creation of Grod's Law (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328767-More-realistic-D-amp-D-Economy/page4&p=17613518#post17613518) by Grod_The_Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?10688-Grod_The_Giant) was closely related to that thread.

How do you mean? I thought Grod's Law predated the discussion. :smallconfused:

[Threadnaught]

Well..... there was that one guy who calls him Emperor Win. And I kind of have to agree with him on that one.

Was? I've not seen anyone else do so and I haven't gone anywhere.

Strange that nobody else does though. It's a faster way of summoning him and almost everyone here agrees that Win = Tippy.
Is that the right order? It doesn't matter, they're synonyms.

[AMFV]

I actually dislike a lot of his optimization advice. He takes a lot of very liberal readings on things that could be read more than one way, and then he isn't generally willing to admit that somebody could read things a different way than he does. For example the Magic Mantle. Although to be fair that's a common failing here with our focus on RAW, very few people admit that there are things that can be read in more ways than one.

[.Zero]

Wow, i'd never expect a 3 pages thread in less than 24 hours. It would be really cool if tippy decides to come here and confirming everything has been said on himself, thus self proclaiming the god of optimization.

i don't really know if that was gramatically correct English, hope you get the idea, though.

Anyways, tippyverse just seems to be one of the coolest settings around. Has anybody played in such a world? And more importantly, considering the ways tippy plays and intends dnd, is it really possible to play as a mundane character in a world like that? And if it possible, how can be doable in a way that is different from magically enhanced uberchargers/smackers?

[Psyren]

Wow, i'd never expect a 3 pages thread in less than 24 hours. It would be really cool if tippy decides to come here and confirming everything has been said on himself, thus self proclaiming the god of optimization.

i don't really know if that was gramatically correct English, hope you get the idea, though.

He posted on the second page, #46 :smalltongue:



Anyways, tippyverse just seems to be one of the coolest settings around. Has anybody played in such a world? And more importantly, considering the ways tippy plays and intends dnd, is it really possible to play as a mundane character in a world like that? And if it possible, how can be doable in a way that is different from magically enhanced uberchargers/smackers?

You CAN play a non-caster in a setting like that, but why would you? You'd basically be giving up on any possibility of affecting the setting in any meaningful way. Everything you did would be either beneath the notice of the mage-states, or acting as one of their pawns.

[A Tad Insane]

The StP erudite needs verbal and somatic components to manifest his spells.



Why the psion's powers are auto stilled/silent ? If they can be auto enlarged/extended/stilled/silent with the spell secret trick ?

1. Finds a wu jen with the wanted spell
2. Psychic reform/Chaos Shuffle four Extra Spell Secret feats
3. Permanently add Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Still Spell, and Silent Spell to the wanted spell
4. Learn the enlarged, extended, stilled and silent spell

Spell secret can be used with any spell know, not only wu jen spells.

There are probably other tricks for free metamagic, but this is the only one I know.

I'm guessing because the erudite gets them as powers, then converts them to psions, which don't require materials, foci, verbal or semantic components. I don't know, I can't rubisplork very well

[dextercorvia]

The thing I respect Tippy most for is the Tippyverse. The basic everyday things that can and should logically be done by magic, because it is there. This has impacted the way I design worlds, write backstories, and and pretty much think of the game. I have been cooking up a campaign idea that starts as sort of a post-apoclyptic tippyverse, starting just as the entirety of a magic based society collapses in upon itself.

[Vhaidara]

Actually, one of my friends had an idea for a game set in the Tippyverse where the gods looked up, realized what the mortal had done, and took away magic. If he ever does it, I am totally running a changeling rogue into Charlatan.

[Aegis013]

Anyways, tippyverse just seems to be one of the coolest settings around. Has anybody played in such a world? And more importantly, considering the ways tippy plays and intends dnd, is it really possible to play as a mundane character in a world like that? And if it possible, how can be doable in a way that is different from magically enhanced uberchargers/smackers?

I've run a game in that style of setting, with my own twists. My players enjoyed that the most of the campaigns I've run, they were a Warlock (retired and entered with a Wizard), a Cleric, a DFI Bard, and a Duskblade.

It is absolutely possible to play a mundane character in a world like that. Now, with the optimization level at my table, a straight fighter might be a tough sell, since there were a lot of encounters where they might not be able to contribute significantly, but a Warblade would likely be able to keep up and contribute most of the time.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How do you mean? I thought Grod's Law predated the discussion. :smallconfused:
It came out of the "More Realistic D&D Economy" thread, which wasn't a jedipotter original but quickly devolved into a discussion of his material component houserules. The "Balancing Bad Mechanics" was jedi's reaction to the Law.

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Hey guys, please don't hijack this thread to talk about off-topic things, especially talking about a closed thread (and in some cases continuing a similar discussion). Especially if you're continuing that thread's conversation in order to flame its OP. Please stay on topic.

[Mato]

The basic everyday things that can and should logically be done by magic, because it is there.It sounds amazing doesn't it? If it exists in D&D, then it has a place there. A world of magic and adventure. The last war ended, sort of.

Deities have no direct influence, there is no focus on a single high level wizard but magic is common and readily available. Created food & water is supplied, constructs are used for defense, undead are used in assembly lines, alignment debates are a thing of the past, planar binding is taken to ridiculous abusive levels for flying castles and such. People and supplies are moved in bulk from one area to another for coppers on the dirt piece. Your most dangerous opponents that threaten existence are based off the lucid dreaming skill and live in time accelerated planes, and so on.

Civilization exists in a few main concentrated cities (lets say 5) with a dozen smaller ones dotting the landscape. Each one technically at peace but they struggle and skirmish for economic & political supremacy. Rich wild lands ran by elves and tribal drow surround them, there the more primitive forms of magic can be found. Entire regions are under the constant threat of a hard winter killing them off. Even dragons live outside the region but are aloft and refusing to tolerate expansion into their hunting territory.

Oh, you know what else we can't forget. The world's history, a massive prior prior to the start of the campaign, the numerous sides throwing dozens of golems at each other. Warforged created in the city of Sharn using a creation forge took the place of our soldiers so no one has to lose anyone they know.

It's an amazing campaign setting.

[Snowbluff]

I actually dislike a lot of his optimization advice. He takes a lot of very liberal readings on things that could be read more than one way, and then he isn't generally willing to admit that somebody could read things a different way than he does. For example the Magic Mantle. Although to be fair that's a common failing here with our focus on RAW, very few people admit that there are things that can be read in more ways than one. I can agree with this. Also, I try and tone down a lot of the things I would suggest to the level my tables play at, but he jumps in with the guns loaded. Which is sometimes fine, because a lot of what he says leads to me saying "Now, how can I make a practical optimization version of this."

@Grod: Thanks. :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

Snip
That does sound pretty awesome, yes.

[Suzuha]

They say he's once had a twelve-hour discussion about optimizing a peanut. And that his first dice roll made the tavern visit the party in their first session.

All we know is, he's called "Emperor Tippy"!

[Mato]

That does sound pretty awesome, yes.
Did you edit you surprise over my comment out or realize what I meant?

[eggynack]

Did you edit you surprise over my comment out or realize what I meant?
Not really sure what you're indicating. The only editing I did was to add in a fancy quote to indicate that I was replying to you, as there was a post between your post and mine by the time I posted.

[gooddragon1]

I'm almost paranoid to believe that the webcomic called useswordonomonster is meant to parody the tippyverse or something in a way.

[Mato]

Not really sure what you're indicating.Color coded.


Basic postulates:
1. Epic Magic does not exist, it’s way too game breaking to try to make any setting that can work with it.
2. The deities are mostly silent
3. Everything else is pretty much as RAW (excluding some of the truly screwy things like drowning resurrections

What the Tippyverse isn’t:
1. It’s not a world ruled by a single all powerful wizard who mind rapes the opposition (at least not traditionally).

Let’s look at the military and economic implications of such magic. This concentration of people is going to open the City up to attacks on their food supply, fortunately this problem can be solved by Create Food and Water traps. The traditional Tippyverse tends to make use of armies of Shadesteel Golems and Warforged for defense, usually with Wizard officers. Teleporation Circles will be set up between the City and fellow Cities simply because they are the only remotely safe and cost effective way to rapidly move goods between the cities. Who is going to ship goods by boat when TC’s are faster, cheaper, and safer? Or by wagon train?


You are quickly left with the large cities (most on par with the likes of Sharn, or even larger, in terms of population) that hold upwards of 99% of the worlds non monstrous population and cover (maybe) one percent of the worlds surface and the Wilds between the cities that are filled with the denizens of the various Monster Manuals. & The massive concentration of population and trade in the various cities (I recommend between a dozen and a hundred cities in the average Tippyverse world) is naturally going to lead to a concentration of wealth and knowledge. Over time cities will fall (be it from the attack of an enemy city, a flight of dragons, a civil war between it’s leadership, natural disaster, or whatever else the cause) and others will rise to replace them. New cities are rarities but they do occur (about as often as cities fall). The Wilds are the area between cities. Magic is rare and largely limited to Sorcerers, Warlocks, Druids, and similar classes. Most individuals are low level and it’s rare to find a PC class. although the vast majority of the population living in the Wilds is still one hard winter away from death. One and all they tend to leave the cities alone and the cities leave them alone. Nothing else really has the organization to actually threaten a Cities standing military, which isn't to say that Cities don't get destroyed when they go too far. They really just pretty much ignore eachother.
The second half of the Steel Legions were invented in the City of Sharn 8 years later when the first Warforged stepped out of the first Creation Forge.




It sounds amazing doesn't it? If it exists in D&D, then it has a place there. A world of magic and adventure. The last war ended, sort of.

Deities have no direct influence, there is no focus on a single high level wizard but magic is common and readily available. Created food & water is supplied, constructs are used for defense, undead are used in assembly lines, alignment debates are a thing of the past, planar binding is taken to ridiculous abusive levels for flying castles and such. People and supplies are moved in bulk from one area to another for coppers on the dirt piece. Your most dangerous opponents that threaten existence are based off the lucid dreaming skill and live in time accelerated planes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240748-One-of-my-more-powerful-tricks), and so on.

Civilization exists in a few main concentrated cities (lets say 5) with a dozen smaller ones dotting the landscape. Each one technically at peace but they struggle and skirmish for economic & political supremacy. Rich wild lands ran by elves and tribal drow surround them, there the more primitive forms of magic can be found. Entire regions are under the constant threat of a hard winter killing them off. Even dragons live outside the region but are aloft and refusing to tolerate expansion into their hunting territory.

Oh, you know what else we can't forget. The world's history, a massive prior prior to the start of the campaign, the numerous sides throwing dozens of golems at each other. Warforged created in the city of Sharn using a creation forge took the place of our soldiers so no one has to lose anyone they know.

It's an amazing campaign setting. So what do you think, pretty spot on right?

[eggynack]

The words you said and the words he said do seem a bit similar, if not particularly the same. Doesn't really make clear what the issue is though. That stuff sounds pretty cool.

[Anlashok]

I think the lime green hurts my eyes.

[Mato]

The words you said and the words he said do seem a bit similar, if not particularly the same. Doesn't really make clear what the issue is though. That stuff sounds pretty cool.The minor oddities you're picking up on is the slight ambiguity in how I worded some of my stuff as well as how I'm a bit more detailed in other areas. Like I never actually used the word teleport and I bet you're looking for it. We've all heard about undead assemble lines before so I mentioned that too.

But you are right. That isn't the issue I'm bringing up and once seen you cannot unsee it. Like Morpheus, I can only show you the door, you have to walk through it and accept what goes with it.

[eggynack]

You could always just use words, y'know, instead of being arbitrarily coy. I don't even necessarily know about whatever it is you're talking about.

[Raven777]

I think what Mato implies is that the Tippyverse doesn't actually need to be optimized to happen. His own text doesn't seem very rudisplorked at all, yet the key elements of the Tippyverse's "feel" are in. It also sounds kinda like Eberron.

[eggynack]

I think what Mato implies is that the Tippyverse doesn't actually need to be optimized to happen. His own text doesn't seem very rudisplorked at all, yet the key elements of the Tippyverse's "feel" are in.
Ah, I suppose. I don't really see the issue with that though. I mean, without the optimization stuff, a lot of that setting that Mato constructed is rather unexplained. Like, why do we need to have hyper-concentration when the main reason for that in the Tippyverse was the possibility of instant death attacks? How are you getting that speedy transportation to happen without the teleportation, exactly? Those questions can be answered, but the way they're answered help determine setting. A lot of other stuff in Mato's post seems to be highly optimized as well, with the lucid dreaming, and crazy constructs and whatnot. The Tippyverse doesn't say, "This is the only way to reach a world like this." It's saying, "Here's the awesome outcome when stuff goes crazy," and then there's a well developed world around it. This argument doesn't really make me feel like the Tippyverse isn't awesome or creative, in other words.

[Psyren]

I think what Mato implies is that the Tippyverse doesn't actually need to be optimized to happen. His own text doesn't seem very rudisplorked at all, yet the key elements of the Tippyverse's "feel" are in. It also sounds kinda like Eberron.

Eberron has kitchen-sink fantasy and silent deities but that's about where the similarities end. Something like the Draconic Prophecy that dictates how all the setting's major magical players move (either directly, or controlling their attempts to defy/understand it) is antithetical to the TV.

Basically, you have to ask yourself a simple question - "what keeps super-powered spellcasters in check?" If the answer you come up with is anything other than "gentleman's agreement with each other," you probably aren't dealing with a TV.

Though among the WotC published settings, Eberron probably comes closest.

[Vhaidara]

EBasically, you have to ask yourself a simple question - "what keeps super-powered spellcasters in check?" If the answer you come up with is anything other than "gentleman's agreement with each other," you probably aren't dealing with a TV.

You know, I found the answer to all of these "What's the best anti-mage?" threads that have been popping up.

2 mages of individual power equal to the mage you want to kill.

[Dorian Gray]

You know, I found the answer to all of these "What's the best anti-mage?" threads that have been popping up.

2 mages of individual power equal to the mage you want to kill.

I prefer clerics. Knowing their entire spell list makes it a lot easier to pick spells to counter the mage, whereas arcane casters typically have to copy spells from scrolls.

Either that or artificers, because being able to cast every spell ever is cool.

[Raven777]

Haven't we just established the best anti-mage would be a psion?

[Sith_Happens]

What is Tippy?

Tippy is solving all of your problems with Ice Assassin. Yes, even that one.

It's having your character become a sapient planet on a whim.

It's bringing the Playground together to see how hard they can cheese a 17th level Monk (Answer? HARD).

It's Teleporting Through Time to the beginning of the universe and moving a single hydrogen atom just right so that every antagonist in the campaign is never born. I've never actually read about him doing this, but I assume he has at least once.

It's killing greater deities as your morning exercise.

It's having a Crafted Contingent Spell for every possible scenario known to man, and some known only to dolphins.

It's mass-producing Advanced Rudimentary Intelligence Shadesteel Golems with Epic feats to take over the planes because your weekend was getting a bit dull.

Tippy is all these things and more. Embrace it and be enlightened.

[Vhaidara]

I prefer clerics. Knowing their entire spell list makes it a lot easier to pick spells to counter the mage, whereas arcane casters typically have to copy spells from scrolls.

Either that or artificers, because being able to cast every spell ever is cool.

Note: "Mage" in my post refers to anyone with 9th level casting or manifesting (not initiating). And artificers count, because they get items to do it for them.

[Rubik]

Tippy is the man -- the legend -- who optimized the Harry Potter universe. (http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/a-magical-awakening-hp-si.246476/)

[Psyren]

It's Teleporting Through Time to the beginning of the universe and moving a single hydrogen atom just right so that every antagonist in the campaign is never born. I've never actually read about him doing this, but I assume he has at least once.

I doubt it - this sounds like the kind of tactic that will just result in a whole new (and ironically worse) set of antagonists instead.

[Snowbluff]

I doubt it - this sounds like the kind of tactic that will just result in a whole new (and ironically worse) set of antagonists instead.

If it was a game we were running or playing in... yes. Tippy and his DM have probably hashed this one out, though. He has a way of knowing how these things will work out.

[Rubik]

I doubt it - this sounds like the kind of tactic that will just result in a whole new (and ironically worse) set of antagonists instead.That's what Hypercognition is for. It'll tell you which atom to move, and where to move it to.

[Sith_Happens]

Tippy is the man -- the legend -- who optimized the Harry Potter universe. (http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/a-magical-awakening-hp-si.246476/)

Oh yeah, at one point I was meaning to ask Tippy if the Tippy on Space Battles is actually him or if someone stole the handle. I came across a few "D&D 3.5 Wizard vs. [X]" threads while Googling something mostly unrelated once, to hilarious results. Specifically, every last one of them went like this:

1. Tippy mentions Foresight + Celerity somewhere on the first page.

2. Someone calls him a munchkin within three posts.

3. The thread immediately devolves into flame-warring and chaos, with only Tippy himself attempting to remain civil or even rational.

[Vhaidara]

3. The thread immediately devolves into flame-warring and chaos, with only Tippy himself attempting to remain civil or even rational.

I think this, even moreso than the sheer amount of knowledge he possesses, defines Tippy. He's a nice guy. He doesn't lower himself to the level of his opponents. He is polite and he is willing to work with people if they are also polite.

Oh, and he makes us feel better when we slip something really OP by our GMs by pointing out the stuff that he does on a regular basis. Like becoming a planet.

[...]

Tippy is what I want to be in the future.

[Threadnaught]

Oh yeah, at one point I was meaning to ask Tippy if the Tippy on Space Battles is actually him or if someone stole the handle.

My first encounter with Emperor Win, was when a whole bunch of people were asking if the Blacklight Virus possessing Alex Mercer could win in a fight against a Sorcerer, Fighter, Rogue and Cleric. The other posters constantly tried to ban Emperor Win from citing rules and using logic, where they were using fanboyism.

Apparently Alex Mercer is intelligent enough to go for the Caster first and the Caster is smart enough to have the best Spells, but still dumb enough to walk up to Mercer and get eaten first. While a 30+ Intelligence Wizard, isn't smart enough to just go right ahead and slaughter Mercer before he finishes his Pun Pun style ascension.


Mercer eventually managed to eat the whole universe in that thread because everyone but Emperor Win liked him that much and they were louder.

[VoxRationis]

Incidentally, regarding Foresight+Celerity, how does that work? Foresight has a limited duration (200 min at level 20) and is level 9, which means you're not going to be able to use metamagic at sub-epic levels, and are unlikely to have the spell slots to use it more than once or twice per day, which means that most of the day is still unprotected by the spell combo.

[TachyonBlade]

I suggest we begin a religion about Tippy. I'm fourteen, and even I've known of him for years.

Admittedly because my parents love him.

[Anlashok]

Basically, you have to ask yourself a simple question - "what keeps super-powered spellcasters in check?" If the answer you come up with is anything other than "gentleman's agreement with each other," you probably aren't dealing with a TV.

Though among the WotC published settings, Eberron probably comes closest.

The section in quotes literally describes Dark Sun though.

[Snowbluff]

Incidentally, regarding Foresight+Celerity, how does that work? Foresight has a limited duration (200 min at level 20) and is level 9, which means you're not going to be able to use metamagic at sub-epic levels, and are unlikely to have the spell slots to use it more than once or twice per day, which means that most of the day is still unprotected by the spell combo.

What? There are ways to persist it. Incantatrix, off the top of my head.

[Erik Vale]

The section in quotes literally describes Dark Sun though.

Ahh. But in Darksun there isn't enough magic around to run the teleportation circles until someone figures out to do so psionically, so it can't be a tippy verse. It is however, post-tippy-verse by GM fiat with the gentlemans agreement having remained in place because two wizards fighting is bad... Either because of the devastation, or because it results in one hyperpowerful wizard in the resulting stacks on and taking advantage of exhausted wizards.

[Graypairofsocks]

You know even excluding the abuse, Spell to power erudite is a pretty strong trade for just a bonus feat lost.


Haven't we just established the best anti-mage would be a psion?

Bizarrely enough the Psion's theme reminds me of Anti-mage from Dota 2.

[Yael]

Tippy is love, Tippy is life.

We all dream of Tippy... Like in that video with Shrek (?)

[Vogonjeltz]

I think what Mato implies is that the Tippyverse doesn't actually need to be optimized to happen. His own text doesn't seem very rudisplorked at all, yet the key elements of the Tippyverse's "feel" are in. It also sounds kinda like Eberron.

Isn't sharn an Eberron specific city?

[LarwisTheElf]

What is Tippy?

Tippy is solving all of your problems with Ice Assassin. Yes, even that one.

It's having your character become a sapient planet on a whim.

It's bringing the Playground together to see how hard they can cheese a 17th level Monk (Answer? HARD).

It's Teleporting Through Time to the beginning of the universe and moving a single hydrogen atom just right so that every antagonist in the campaign is never born. I've never actually read about him doing this, but I assume he has at least once.

It's killing greater deities as your morning exercise.

It's having a Crafted Contingent Spell for every possible scenario known to man, and some known only to dolphins.

It's mass-producing Advanced Rudimentary Intelligence Shadesteel Golems with Epic feats to take over the planes because your weekend was getting a bit dull.

Tippy is all these things and more. Embrace it and be enlightened.

Is it wrong that I read that in the voice of "The Most Interesting Man in the World"? I sure hope not, cause it sounded awesome.

[Graypairofsocks]

My first encounter with Emperor Win, was when a whole bunch of people were asking if the Blacklight Virus possessing Alex Mercer could win in a fight against a Sorcerer, Fighter, Rogue and Cleric. The other posters constantly tried to ban Emperor Win from citing rules and using logic, where they were using fanboyism.
Could you link me to the thread.

Also what levels were the characters?

Just a nitpick, but:

Alex Mercer is actually dead, The blacklight virus is just using him as its identity(it doesn't actually know this for a while) because it used to identify as him.

[eggynack]

Could you link me to the thread.

Also what levels were the characters?

Just found it (http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/alex-mercer-vs-epic-level-d-d-party.174025/). And 21, inexplicably.

[MeeposFire]

Tippy is the man Pun Pun fears.

NO you fool don't you understand...Tippy is Pun-Pun in the guise of a mortal man!

http://banter.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Foil-600x335.png

[ryu]

So did you just intend to make the quadratic formula explode or was that just an image posting outside the allowed forum size guidelines?

Edit: Nevermind. Fixed.

[Erik Vale]

Someone asked before if Tippy was the same one from Spacebattles and linked the Magical Awakening Fanfic... I liked it enough to keep reading it.
And the Tippy there claims to be the Tippy here on page 8, post 190.
Now, back to my reading.

[Melcar]

Just found it (http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/alex-mercer-vs-epic-level-d-d-party.174025/). And 21, inexplicably.

I dont want to badmouth people I dont know, but the persons arguing against Tippy were acting like extreme religious people, disregarding perfactly sound arguments and logic because of fan bias. Simply just Terrible to watch.

I have experience the same with Marvel vs DC comics. Superman specifically. (Some people sa he can be beat without cryptonite, under a yellow sun, by a non magic user, pre-crisis/retcon)

I must say, that even though I very seldom use Tippy's advise I have to say that in that debate he was clearly right! IMO!

[eggynack]

I dont want to badmouth people I dont know, but the persons arguing against Tippy were acting like extreme religious people, disregarding perfactly sound arguments and logic because of fan bias. Simply just Terrible to watch.
Maybe, though to be honest, it feels a lot like they were just talking about two different things, and arguing past each other as a result. The opposing side could have been a lot less rude about it, but it was somewhat plausible that the thread was intended to analyze Faerunian wizards, rather than PC wizards. However, while they possibly had a claim to their share of correctness on those grounds, they lost a lot of ground in the vain attempt to claim the rule-based high ground over Tippy. It's pretty hard to win that sort of fight, even for a seasoned optimizer, and they didn't even come close.

[Ansem]

Seeing as he made some really scrub statements in the past (Generalist Wizards for example) I can't see why this person is so great, he knows how the game works but seems to miss vital points still. But he fits in well for this community. It's like knowing a language except for all the verbs.

[eggynack]

Seeing as he made some really scrub statements in the past (Generalist Wizards for example) I can't see why this person is so great.
His argument against specialist wizards is actually pretty solid. Managed to convince me part of the way at least, though I'm not as in agreement with it as he is. Tippy just tends to be reasonably correct about this sort of stuff, with any lapses in correctness based on the discrepancy between the extremely high op/high level way he plays, and the reasonable op/reasonable level games that are played more by others. Tippy isn't perfect, but none of us can lay claim to perfection.

In any case, if you want to know why people think Tippy is so great, you need do no more than scan through the less hyperbolic/humorous comments in this thread. The very thing that makes Tippy's arguments occasionally fail to connect is the same thing that makes him a paragon of theoretical optimization. Different people have different allowances for optimization, and he's at the top of the curve, defining, in a sense what we (meaning optimizers) all aspire to. It's not necessarily a goal that we seek to actually reach, but it's nice to have that upper limit there. And that upper limit is Tippy.

[Melcar]

Seeing as he made some really scrub statements in the past (Generalist Wizards for example) I can't see why this person is so great, he knows how the game works but seems to miss vital points still. But he fits in well for this community. It's like knowing a language except for all the verbs.

What I have found, and I mean no offence, is that this place is for very good, logical and interesting rule questions most of the time. I come hear several times a week and there is always something interesting too read and discuss, but when I want lore and roleplaying ideas I usually go to candlekeep.com (http://forum.candlekeep.com/)

[Threadnaught]

Just found it (http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/alex-mercer-vs-epic-level-d-d-party.174025/). And 21, inexplicably.

Yeah, that's the one.

They spent the whole time accusing Emperor Win of "jacking off to D&D", while they themselves were too bust fantasizing about Alex Mercer and writing their fanfics with themselves as his romantic interest, 50 Shades style.

The one part Emperor Win got wrong though, Forcecage, it is possible to make an Epic Level Escape Artist Check to move through a Wall of Force. Alex Mercer would most likely have an Epic modifier due to his viral makeup. Fight would end the same though, Mercer/Blacklight dead, Sorcerer/Wizard alive/undead.

Edit: Another thing he got wrong, 16 + 6 + 5 + 5 = 32, not 34. Yeah, it's only a couple of minor parts and has no significant effect, but that doesn't prevent him from making mathematical errors. Considering what he does for a living, these mistakes are rather amusing.

[Psyren]

That's what Hypercognition is for. It'll tell you which atom to move, and where to move it to.

Hypercognition is not Instant Omniscience. It lets you make a very good guess, but it's still a guess.


The section in quotes literally describes Dark Sun though.

Doesn't arcane magic in Dark Sun destroy the environment? That's not RAW anywhere else.

[Tengu_temp]

Tippy is the king of rules lawyers, people who browse through several different books for an hour before going "ahah! It's never said that Tenser's Marvelous Ice Cube stops working if you go back in time by casting Bigby's Punch To The Last Sunday (nothing in the rules says you cannot cast that spell on yourself), and therefore it's a part of my perfect combo that deals 128d6+1024 damage to all enemies you could ever think of with no save, as long as you treat some parts of the games as RAW and some with RL logic, as convenient".

And this is a forum where rules lawyers are mostly applauded instead of met with comments in the vein of "it's obviously not means to work this way, you're just exploiting loopholes", which is why Tippy became its god.

[Erik Vale]

Doesn't arcane magic in Dark Sun destroy the environment? That's not RAW anywhere else.

Hence it being a DM fiat post-tippyverse.
Until you set up a psionic one. *Evil Laugh*

[AMFV]

Tippy is the king of rules lawyers, people who browse through several different books for an hour before going "ahah! It's never said that Tenser's Marvelous Ice Cube stops working if you go back in time by casting Bigby's Punch To The Last Sunday (nothing in the rules says you cannot cast that spell on yourself), and therefore it's a part of my perfect combo that deals 128d6+1024 damage to all enemies you could ever think of with no save, as long as you treat some parts of the games as RAW and some with RL logic, as convenient".

And this is a forum where rules lawyers are mostly applauded instead of met with comments in the vein of "it's obviously not means to work this way, you're just exploiting loopholes", which is why Tippy became its god.

Eh, he's still a little loose and fast with some of the reading he does... A lot of times he takes text sections that are ambiguous or poorly worded and then applies his interpretation to it as though there is only one RAW interpretation. That's actually what bothers me most about Rules Lawyers is they tend not to recognize that there are sections of the text that are ambiguous or lend themselves equally to different interpretations. Which is generally problem with "RAW is God", because people don't realize that sometimes RAW could be more than one thing. Also he has kind of a cult of personality here, in the reverse of JediPotters, and I don't really approve of either of them. It's one thing to say "That's a cool trick" it's quite another to say "Well Tippy said it, so it must be right and always work", which is not always strictly true, particularly with ambiguous sections.

[Melcar]

Tippy is the king of rules lawyers, people who browse through several different books for an hour before going "ahah! It's never said that Tenser's Marvelous Ice Cube stops working if you go back in time by casting Bigby's Punch To The Last Sunday (nothing in the rules says you cannot cast that spell on yourself), and therefore it's a part of my perfect combo that deals 128d6+1024 damage to all enemies you could ever think of with no save, as long as you treat some parts of the games as RAW and some with RL logic, as convenient".

And this is a forum where rules lawyers are mostly applauded instead of met with comments in the vein of "it's obviously not means to work this way, you're just exploiting loopholes", which is why Tippy became its god.

I think its always interesting to push the bounderies of the game mechanics. That does not mean that I dont find it fun to play a sword and board fighter or any other class. The important thing is to take it for what it is. Its a game and Tippy has, whether or not people like it, a very good understanding of the game. Hence my comment about him having a PHD in the matter. And it is especially his creativity and sheer knowledge about spells, class abilities and feats and his way of combining them into something I personally naver would have thought of my self.

At the end of the day any character must fit what ever game one play in... Meaning that for Tippy game I would dare a guess that my own level 30 wiz would be bested by a mid level tier 3 party... other places he would rule the cosmos.

But you have to give him, that he does know the game damn well!

[Mato]

It took me a while to reply but to follow up.


I think what Mato implies is that the Tippyverse doesn't actually need to be optimized to happen. His own text doesn't seem very rudisplorked at all, yet the key elements of the Tippyverse's "feel" are in. It also sounds kinda like Eberron.Maybe because I wasn't describing Tippyverse but Eberron.

Eberron is a steampunk flavored fantasy world built on the rule of cool and combines elements of well known optimization tricks filtered through a gentleman's agreement for appeal and the abundance of magic. The very first thing of the five (or is it ten? no book right now) things you need to know about Eberron is if it exists in D&D, then it has a place there. Deities don't have direct influence, alignment is barely noticed (debates on alignment), everyone has magical food/water/light (any economic post ever), the BBEG race lives on a fast time plane (dal quor) and haunts people's dreams (lucid dreaming abuse), crafters use dedicated wrights (it's a pun, remove the r), people have super-golem guards (like warforged), bound elementals make stuff fly (planar binding abuse meets planescape and decanters of water propelled castles), House Orien's specialty is transportation including teleportation and as Tippyverse is newer than 4th edition than you cannot forget the low level ritual named linked portal (teleportation circle), currency is surprisingly expanded with House Kundarak standardized the Galifaric currency into such things as silver sovereigns (ring any bells?) and checks to prevent counterfeiting through other coinage or payment methods exist such as dragonshards and Breland's double crown, and so on. Everything I typed up comes from Eberron, some of it direct copy and paste descriptions from the books them selves while others are just observations of the world's details.

It is a very rich setting, highly detailed and full of amazing details. As I said it was also built on the rule of cool. The Sahuagina, a race of SHARK-MEN!, attack ships and trade at the underharbor in Stormreach. Instead of being cave dwelling backstabbers worshiping a spider for no gain to them selves, the Drow upgraded their god to a scorpion because scorpions eat spiders and reclaimed forested land from the elves. The Karrnath nation is a Gothic themed nation ruled by vampires that use zombie armies and they did it before True Blood was cool.

Eggy asked why I consider Tippy uncreative? Well the material posted is extremely generic and undetailed. People live in a few unnamed cities, the outside area is called "the wild", winter is coming, etc. Boring, bland, unoriginal. He spends more time talking about teleportation circle and shadesteel golems than anything else. But his underlaying theme, world generation (yep dragons live on another content, frostfell is to the north, megacities with forests in between, etc), and past history matches Eberron. Even going so far as to copy and paste the idea of using the creation forge in a city called Sharn. The parallels are there to anyone familiar with Eberron and once seen it's impossible not to compare the two. So it carries the weight of being overly bland to begin with and by being completly overshadowed by a superior publicized resource designed for D&D. To give you an idea here is the diffidences on Warforged history & usage.


Warforged in Xen'drik
The origins of the warforged on Eberron are not clear. According to a "docent" (ancient and sentient memory-containing magic item) found in Secrets of Xen'drik, the very first warforged were created as "host bodies" for a group of Quori (which were very different from Quori of 998 YK). The giants of Xen'drik created their own versions for their wars against the Quori, because the warforged are immune to many Quori tactics. However, according to Tales of the Last War, the giants invented the warforged, after which the Quori stole the secrets of their creation from the dreams of giants and created their own.

Either way, the secrets of warforged creation seem to have originated on the continent of Xen'drik. The ability of ancient Xen'drik docents to meld with modern-day warforged supports this theory. The existence of Xulo, a huge and powerful warforged found in Xen'drik, also supports this theory.

Warforged in Khorvaire
Near the halfway point of the Last War, Merrix d'Cannith, of the Dragonmarked House Cannith, was commissioned to build a great army of golems, to serve as untiring warriors. Not satisfied with the lifeless, unintelligent hulks his forges produced, nor with the prohibitively expensive process of creating golems one-by-one, Merrix began experimenting with magic to instill some spark of life in them that would enable them, like living things, to direct their own actions and to be grown by a self-sustaining process. After many unsuccessful attempts, Merrix's son, Aarren d'Cannith, finally invented the process used in the creation forges. The warforged that Aarren's creation forges created were fully sentient, with the ability to have emotions, relationships, even to experience death; each new generation increased in sophistication and intelligence, ranging from the barely sentient titans to the youngest versions of warforged who were fully capable of achieving advanced education and ability in magic. However, Aarren and Merrix had a disagreement over their use. Aarren felt that House Cannith had created life, and refused to see his creations used as tools. Merrix ignored him, and Aarren, feeling powerless, left. Powerful divination magics used to this day have only been able to confirm that he is still alive, not where he is. At the end of the War, two important rulings regarding the warforged came down:
All warforged were declared 'people', and not possessions.
The House Cannith creation forges were to be shut down, never to produce any more of the living constructs.
Despite the rulings, many warforged are still regarded as outsiders, and many are still employed as indentured servants.

There are also rumours that Merrix d'Cannith, (the grandson of the original Merrix) still produces illegal warforged in a lost creation forge. Even more disturbing are the rumors that the Lord of Blades, a rogue warforged, has stumbled onto an undestroyed creation forge in the Mournland and has begun creating an army.

The Lord of Blades, a figure of near-messianic significance to the warforged, took advantage of the Day of Mourning to establish an independent warforged outpost within the Mournland; operating from a philosophy that the existence of organic life will always pose a threat that his people will be returned to servitude, he wages a guerrilla war with the eventual goal the elimination of human dominance in Khorvaire; his agents thus serve as reliable antagonists for many Eberron campaigns. One of the biggest mysteries in the setting is the nature of the Lord of Blades' identity and to what extent he actually exists or has been mythologized.

Races of Eberron, an extended reference guide for the campaign setting, has much more in-depth material on warforged variations and additional feats and abilities. As well, it mentions the beginnings of the construction of the Godforged, which could in fact be a warforged god.

Recently a new group of warforged calling themselves the "Psiforged" have begun appearing across Eberron. Able to use very powerful psionic abilities, their origins are as much a mystery as their motives. Some are said to originate from Mournland, while others appear from deep beneath the depth of Sharn. House Cannith denies any connection to the new design and has stated that they never pursued a psionically enhanced warforged model.

The second half of the Steel Legions were invented in the City of Sharn 8 years later when the first Warforged stepped out of the first Creation Forge. While far less powerful in combat than a Shadesteel Golem, Warforged were much more intelligent and much cheaper and rapidly began to fill the roll of scouts and even NCO’s in the Cities military forces.

The traditional Tippyverse tends to make use of armies of Shadesteel Golems and Warforged for defense, usually with Wizard officers.
It's like someone's version of plagiarization is excessively using the backspace button. Eberron has taken things not just to the creation of a Warforged army, but based the ideals of it on the fundamentals of the haunt shift trick (quori, sic uber optimizers, living in adamantine bodies) and taken the flavor to the logical conclusions of the debates on AI & souls and a Skynet building terminators retake dubbed the Lord of Blades and his Warfoged army.


If you like the ideas of Tippyverse but want something more imaginative than "the wilds" primitive inhabitants being defined as a list of self-taught casting classes you really need to look into the world of Eberron. The lightning rail isn't as bad as you think, consider it the commoner railgun method of transportation revised to be excusable and it fits into everything else just fine.

[Anlashok]

Doesn't arcane magic in Dark Sun destroy the environment? That's not RAW anywhere else.
Kind of. Mages have the ability to defile to make their spells stronger... which is essentially just a free consumptive field (in concept). So lots of the nastier mages go around eating the environment to power their spells. There's other people who try to do the opposite by feeding magic back into the world but, yeah.

Still essentially a cabal of super-powerful mages ruling giant cloistered cities with a gentleman's agreement between them. They're just ***** about it.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Edit: Another thing he got wrong, 16 + 6 + 5 + 5 = 32, not 34. Yeah, it's only a couple of minor parts and has no significant effect, but that doesn't prevent him from making mathematical errors. Considering what he does for a living, these mistakes are rather amusing.

Clearly it was a meta joke about his adversaries sexual desires for Alex Mercer.

[137beth]

I was going to put a big post together, but I'll leave it aside for the two main points. First, what you're saying is wildly inaccurate on just about every level. Second, this is going to end poorly.

Four pages later, this remains mostly accurate...

[torrasque666]

I just read through about half of that Space Battles thread and..... wow..... They really don't understand D&D very well over there do they?

[Irk]

I just read through about half of that Space Battles thread and..... wow..... They really don't understand D&D very well over there do they?
Yeah, it actually makes me cringe. In the thread, Tippy is the only one who actually understands the game, surrounded by folks that insist he is incorrect in the most rude manner possible.

[Snowbluff]

Same. However, a few people seemed savvier than the others.

[Threadnaught]

Clearly it was a meta joke about his adversaries sexual desires for Alex Mercer.

Genius!

Is there no end to this man's awesomeness? He is able to make us chuckle at the idea of someone who works in business finance getting their numbers wrong, and quietly insult some of the most insulting fanboys who were spending the whole time struggling not to outright state "My opinion is fact

Russel, Krogan and Aratech were the worst ones, with Aratech not being too far from unleashing a torrent of death threats at all times to someone who dares to mock God Mercer's power.
They reported him for denying that it'd be an instant win for Mercer. Here's how I think they saw it going out.

Alex Mercer arrives on Faerun and has heard of a certain build using Pazuzu, a Kobold, a Wish loop and a badly worded ability. He walks into a town, into the nearest tavern and asks the barkeep.
Mercer: Yo what up dawg? I herd you have a Kobold named Pun Pun who can do everything in this game and is affectively god, do you no we're I can found him?
Barkeep: Aye bloke, he be sitting in that there corner behind you, you seem like a nice guy, lemme shake you're hand.
*Mercer absorbs Barkeep, nobody in the tavern gives a ****, then he begins walking over to Pun Pun*
Pun Pun: Well hey there y'all Alex Mercer dude guy whatsit. My name is Pun Pun and know that you came here to eat everything in the universe, and are a serious threat to all of existence. Let me shake you're hand.
*Mercer absorbs Pun Pun and nobody else in the tavern gave a **** before, they still don't*
Mercer: O person riting this as part of there fanfic, I find you very attractave.
*Mercer absorbs every single creature in D&D*
Mercer: Know that were alone, lets get too no eachover beater.

*The person actually writing this as a parody, vomits in disgust and posts in a spoiler on giantitp*

To me, Zealots who feel they have to force their beliefs and opinions on others are the worst kind of people.

[Dorian Gray]

Same. However, a few people seemed savvier than the others.

It was especially annoying because epic levels shouldn't ever be compared to works of fiction. At their very highest, fictional power levels are around perhaps level tenish- someone a while back made a really good case for Gandalf being level 6. High levels can be fun to play, but it isn't fun to read fiction where every chapter is "And then they teleported into the throne room and everything blew up".

[Snowbluff]

True. I wouldn't rate Mercer as an epic-level threat, either way.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It was especially annoying because epic levels shouldn't ever be compared to works of fiction. At their very highest, fictional power levels are around perhaps level tenish- someone a while back made a really good case for Gandalf being level 6. High levels can be fun to play, but it isn't fun to read fiction where every chapter is "And then they teleported into the throne room and everything blew up".
The scenario to be "Mercer acts intelligently, and his power is evaluated based on game mechanics. D&D characters act stupidly, and their power is evaluated based on fiction." It caused me physical pain to read.

[Snowbluff]

I like the "Mercer uses as sniper" or "Mercer is a Hulking Hurler" arguments.

The wizard has been immune to ranged attacks for 14 levels. Thanks, Friendly Fire. :smalltongue:

[Sith_Happens]

His argument against specialist wizards is actually pretty solid. Managed to convince me part of the way at least, though I'm not as in agreement with it as he is. Tippy just tends to be reasonably correct about this sort of stuff, with any lapses in correctness based on the discrepancy between the extremely high op/high level way he plays, and the reasonable op/reasonable level games that are played more by others. Tippy isn't perfect, but none of us can lay claim to perfection.

I played a specialist Wizard once. The utility of the extra spell slots nosedived after fifth level and I quickly decided I'd rather have my banned schools back (of course, when I was clearing a retrain with my DM he okayed Domain Wizard so I ended up getting the best of both worlds:smallbiggrin:).


High levels can be fun to play, but it isn't fun to read fiction where every chapter is "And then they teleported into the throne room and everything blew up".

Watching fiction like that, on the other hand, is all sorts of fun.

[CIDE]

1. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportationCirclePsionic.htm Psionic Teleportation Circle is a thing and should be included in a 3.X Athas. Dark Sun Tippyverse for the win.

2. There's already a d20 monster in D20 Modern that is Mercer minus his insane physical stats (and those can be gained via cheese anyway). Obviously, it's not an epic level threat.

[super dark33]

Welp, heres a new idol to add to the ever growing list of "People Superdark aspires to be like"!


Poems need to be written about how he braved the trolls at the Space Battles.

[Sartharina]

Watching fiction like that, on the other hand, is all sorts of fun.

This is very much true. Comics and movies allow for much crazier high-powered shenanigans than books do.

[Psyren]

It was especially annoying because epic levels shouldn't ever be compared to works of fiction. At their very highest, fictional power levels are around perhaps level tenish- someone a while back made a really good case for Gandalf being level 6. High levels can be fun to play, but it isn't fun to read fiction where every chapter is "And then they teleported into the throne room and everything blew up".

Honestly, if your BBEG can't stop Scry-and-Die tactics, he really isn't much of a BBEG. Consider how blasé Redcloak considered the practice, and I'm sure Tarquin is similarly Crazy Prepared.

[Snowbluff]

Honestly, if your BBEG can't stop Scry-and-Die tactics, he really isn't much of a BBEG. Consider how blasé Redcloak considered the practice, and I'm sure Tarquin is similarly Crazy Prepared.

Tarquin? He's probably so cocky that he over-thought the whole thing. "I'm too important for that to happen to me. My end will be climatic!"

By the way, new avatar? I like it.

[WhamBamSam]

Eh, he's still a little loose and fast with some of the reading he does... A lot of times he takes text sections that are ambiguous or poorly worded and then applies his interpretation to it as though there is only one RAW interpretation. That's actually what bothers me most about Rules Lawyers is they tend not to recognize that there are sections of the text that are ambiguous or lend themselves equally to different interpretations. Which is generally problem with "RAW is God", because people don't realize that sometimes RAW could be more than one thing. Also he has kind of a cult of personality here, in the reverse of JediPotters, and I don't really approve of either of them. It's one thing to say "That's a cool trick" it's quite another to say "Well Tippy said it, so it must be right and always work", which is not always strictly true, particularly with ambiguous sections.I've had occasion to question Tippy occasionally (I don't buy the whole Epic Fighter Bonus Feats List ⊂ Fighter Bonus Feats List thing for the purposes of Martial Monk cheese, I've seen him endorse a Leap Attack reading that is obviously wrong based on the rules for how multiplication works in D&D, and Overchannel clearly doesn't work for the purposes of increasing Ardents' abilities to learn higher level powers because you can only Overchannel once you start manifesting the power, and therefore need the sufficient ML to pay the minimum cost without Overchannel), but for the vast majority of other things, like the Magic Mantle you mentioned earlier in the thread or Fast Time/Enhanced Magic/whatever Demiplanes, his arguments are pretty convincing from where I'm sitting. While I agree that the RAI of the Magic Mantle is pretty clearly to reinforce Magic-Psionics Transparency in games that use the variant non-transparency rule, I don't see how identical can mean anything other than identical from a RAW standpoint, and any comprehensive definition of "environment" should include planar traits just like he says, even if the designers didn't intend for it to work that way. Most of the things he gets up to from Demiplane abuse on down seem to be pretty well supported by the RAW. Honestly, I'd consider him one of the more reliable people here on that front, it's just that when he does use something fishy, the end result is clearly insane and the fishiness leaves a bigger impression as a result.

I'll agree that he can be a bit bull headed about some things and consequently can occasionally be a bit less polite than some of the others in this thread are saying, but I think his reputation is pretty well deserved on the whole, and I'm always interested in what he's going to say next.


Eggy asked why I consider Tippy uncreative? Well the material posted is extremely generic and undetailed. People live in a few unnamed cities, the outside area is called "the wild", winter is coming, etc. Boring, bland, unoriginal. He spends more time talking about teleportation circle and shadesteel golems than anything else. But his underlaying theme, world generation (yep dragons live on another content, frostfell is to the north, megacities with forests in between, etc), and past history matches Eberron. Even going so far as to copy and paste the idea of using the creation forge in a city called Sharn. The parallels are there to anyone familiar with Eberron and once seen it's impossible not to compare the two. So it carries the weight of being overly bland to begin with and by being completly overshadowed by a superior publicized resource designed for D&D. To give you an idea here is the diffidences on Warforged history & usage.

It's like someone's version of plagiarization is excessively using the backspace button. Eberron has taken things not just to the creation of a Warforged army, but based the ideals of it on the fundamentals of the haunt shift trick (quori, sic uber optimizers, living in adamantine bodies) and taken the flavor to the logical conclusions of the debates on AI & souls and a Skynet building terminators retake dubbed the Lord of Blades and his Warfoged army.

If you like the ideas of Tippyverse but want something more imaginative than "the wilds" primitive inhabitants being defined as a list of self-taught casting classes you really need to look into the world of Eberron. The lightning rail isn't as bad as you think, consider it the commoner railgun method of transportation revised to be excusable and it fits into everything else just fine.This seems to be fundamentally misunderstanding what the Tippyverse is. The Tippyverse is not a single setting, but a class of settings that take permanent teleportation circles to their logical conclusion of most of the world's population condensing into megacities with the population outside the cities being for the most part reduced to subsistence level. The fluff can be anything you want it to be.

The fluff that he posted was a small fragment of one of his Tippyverse settings, Points of Light. It is not a section that concerns itself with Warforged souls or whatever because it was posted as an example in a thread about the entire class of Tippyverse settings, which, again, can be fluffed however you want. It's bare bones fluff that is mostly concerned with providing a little bit of explanation for how the world got to the point of its population being consolidated into megacities and their use of Shadesteel Golems and Warforged.

I remember him saying a while back that he had the complete version of Points of Light essentially ready for publication in book form, but that there was some legal snag that was holding it up. If it does get published someday (and I hope it does) then we'll have a reasonably informed opinion as to whether Tippy's fluff is good or bad, or how original or derivative it is compared to other settings. But taking a thread that's almost solely concerned with crunch and using it to say that its creator lacks the creativity to write fluff and is therefore a dirty "rollplayer" as opposed to a "roleplayer" is either intellectually dishonest or outright ignorant.


I played a specialist Wizard once. The utility of the extra spell slots nosedived after fifth level and I quickly decided I'd rather have my banned schools back (of course, when I was clearing a retrain with my DM he okayed Domain Wizard so I ended up getting the best of both worlds:smallbiggrin:).Well, Abrubt Jaunt is pretty great, and if you're in a party with multiple Wizards then so long as someone has each individual school the extra slots are worth it.

But when a Domain Wizard can use a wand of Substitute Domain to get access to trade out his arcane domain or any other domains he picks up (say through Divine Oracle, or, if you're a Dragonwrought Kobold, Singer of Concordance) for any that his deity offers, I don't see the Abrubt Jaunt Conjurer being better than an Elven Generalist Domain Wizard or a Dragonwrought Kobold Domain Wizard abusing auto-qualfication to enter Singer of Concordance at level 2 or even an ordinary Human Domain Wizard once you start getting into mid to high levels. At very high levels, spell list is everything and class features/spell slots are basically meaningless, so just about any Generalist will be better than a Specialist, Abrubt Jaunt or no. Especially if the "deity" in Substitute Domain extends to something like worshipping the Sovereign Host.

Also, Illusionists using Shadow Evocation are pretty awesome by virtue of essentially getting a banned school back. I seem to remember Shadow Conjuration not quite getting the best stuff from Conjuration, but maybe I'm mistaken about that. Still, Generalists are probably better in high-op, and certainly at high level.

[thethird]

His argument against specialist wizards is actually pretty solid. Managed to convince me part of the way at least, though I'm not as in agreement with it as he is. Tippy just tends to be reasonably correct about this sort of stuff, with any lapses in correctness based on the discrepancy between the extremely high op/high level way he plays, and the reasonable op/reasonable level games that are played more by others. Tippy isn't perfect, but none of us can lay claim to perfection.

In any case, if you want to know why people think Tippy is so great, you need do no more than scan through the less hyperbolic/humorous comments in this thread. The very thing that makes Tippy's arguments occasionally fail to connect is the same thing that makes him a paragon of theoretical optimization. Different people have different allowances for optimization, and he's at the top of the curve, defining, in a sense what we (meaning optimizers) all aspire to. It's not necessarily a goal that we seek to actually reach, but it's nice to have that upper limit there. And that upper limit is Tippy.

The only specialist wizard that I would consider playing is a gnome illusionist, and it is for particular reasons of the build or some one who got into the guildmage prc. Still I do not believe them to be superior to generalist wizards. There are useful spells in every school, loosing them is loosing options, and options as information is good.

[Psyren]

I'm more in the Treantmonk school of thinking when it comes to specialist vs. generalist. I don't have a problem with generalists either of course but I personally see more reasons to specialize than not.


Tarquin? He's probably so cocky that he over-thought the whole thing. "I'm too important for that to happen to me. My end will be climatic!"

Good point - he doesn't even seem to think Xykon is the Big Bad after all.


By the way, new avatar? I like it.

Merci! :smallsmile:

[Sith_Happens]

1. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportationCirclePsionic.htm Psionic Teleportation Circle is a thing and should be included in a 3.X Athas. Dark Sun Tippyverse for the win.

The problem is it's not on the Incarnate list, though you can make an extremely strong case for its being eligible for Permanency thanks to referencing the spell (to the Dysfunction thread, awaaaaaaay!).

[Irk]

Merci! :smallsmile:
Oh my god! that's why I was confused when I saw people quoting you within this thread, I didn't see the tell-tale avatar! That is one awesome sword, by the way.

As for the whole space battles, It hurt me so much. The use of the word Munchkin, not understanding how Foresight works, not understanding DC mitigation or chain-gating solars, not understanding the fundamental ideas of basic optimization. It actually frustrated me to s surprising extent, considering it was an unimportant discussion on an unimportant forum, as Tippy himself said.

Just a few things.
When someone says that the 4 person party could not fit inside of the 10x10 forcecage cube. I just thought, "who are you?"
Also, as Snowbluff said, lol Sniper Rifles, nope.
And that horrible Eye roll emoticon was just irritating as hell.
Also, Faerunian wizards are stupid? What about the Netherese empire?
11th level spells.
Really not a fan of the emoticons.

[ryu]

Oh my god! that's why I was confused when I saw people quoting you within this thread, I didn't see the tell-tale avatar! That is one awesome sword, by the way.

As for the whole space battles, It hurt me so much. The use of the word Munchkin, not understanding how Foresight works, not understanding DC mitigation or chain-gating solars, not understanding the fundamental ideas of basic optimization. It actually frustrated me to s surprising extent, considering it was an unimportant discussion on an unimportant forum, as Tippy himself said.

Also, when someone says that the 4 person party could not fit inside of the 10x10 forcecage cube. I just thought, "who are you?"
Also, as Snowbluff said, lol Sniper Rifles, nope.
And that horrible Eye roll emoticon was just irritating as hell.
Also, Faerunian wizards are stupid? What about the Netherese empire?

Explain how they had any right to fall from that position outside of gross incompetence?

[Irk]

Explain how they had any right to fall from that position outside of gross incompetence?
This is a good point, but they were essentially destroyed by a god that caused all magic to stop working. IN theory, it could have been prevented though, so I suppose you are somewhat correct. That and the spellplague are not really covered by mechanics, so, similar to the Lady of Pain, it's difficult to counter them in game.

[Sartharina]

As for the whole space battles, It hurt me so much. The use of the word Munchkin, not understanding how Foresight works, not understanding DC mitigation or chain-gating solars, not understanding the fundamental ideas of basic optimization.

What this subforum considers "Basic Optimization" might as well be "High Level Vector Calculus" by the vast majority of tabletop gamers.

[ryu]

This is a good point, but they were essentially destroyed by a god that caused all magic to stop working. IN theory, it could have been prevented though, so I suppose you are somewhat correct. That and the spellplague are not really covered by mechanics, so, similar to the Lady of Pain, it's difficult to counter them in game.

With travel through time, ice assassins, some gumption and epic magic nothing is uncounterable. Even our dear lady was brought down by an epic spell. If only its caster hadn't choked in the inevitable PvP combat with younger murderhobos directly afterwords he would've taken over that reality as planned.

[Vogonjeltz]

With travel through time, ice assassins, some gumption and epic magic nothing is uncounterable. Even our dear lady was brought down by an epic spell. If only its caster hadn't choked in the inevitable PvP combat with younger murderhobos directly afterwords he would've taken over that reality as planned.

Lady of pain got taken down in a book?

[eggynack]

Besnipped
Everything is similar to something, at least in some ways. Just about nothing is wholly original. Anything, no matter the topic, can be brilliant or terrible. Do you think Eberron is an entity unto itself, unlike any other setting or story in existence? Everything, in the end, comes down to execution and detail. And Tippy's execution and detail, the fundamental principles of optimization that back up that particular work, are just about flawless. You can handwave any differences between works, and skim over what the intended purpose of what he did was, but you miss the point in the process. Tippy's goal in that post was the analysis of the natural consequences of these high magic things. In that goal, he succeeded. I mean, seriously, how could you possibly expect as much detail out of a couple of posts as you get out of a pretty large quantity of complete books?

[Irk]

Lady of pain got taken down in a book?
No, this was Mystra, sorry I was just mentioning the Lady of Pain.
Once again I did not read carefully enough, my mistake.

@ryu, you have convinced me, but I don't like the idea that because every caster in Faerun lore was an idiot that the people on that thread assumed that the players had to act as idiots as well.

[ryu]

Lady of pain got taken down in a book?

Are you just not familiar with the vecna incident? He neutralized her, was in the process of rewriting reality from within sigil, and choked epically to a bunch snot-nosed adventurers as the pre-written adventure goes.

[Vogonjeltz]

Are you just not familiar with the vecna incident? He neutralized her, was in the process of rewriting reality from within sigil, and choked epically to a bunch snot-nosed adventurers as the pre-written adventure goes.

No. I don't read the novelizations, which is why I asked. Prewritten adventure? (Which one?)

*i think I found it, last 2nd edition adventure module "Die Vecna Die!"?

[Anlashok]

With travel through time, ice assassins, some gumption and epic magic nothing is uncounterable. Even our dear lady was brought down by an epic spell. If only its caster hadn't choked in the inevitable PvP combat with younger murderhobos directly afterwords he would've taken over that reality as planned.

That's still DM (in this case writer) fiat running the show, not mechanics.

[MeeposFire]

No. I don't read the novelizations, which is why I asked. Prewritten adventure? (Which one?)

*i think I found it, last 2nd edition adventure module "Die Vecna Die!"?

Yes the supposed epic end of 2e D&D.

[Sith_Happens]

Just skimmed the first page of the Mercer thread, it's almost definitely one of the ones I came across before. The one (not actually relevant to the topic) thing I'll dispute Tippy on is Celerity being faster than the Flash; Celerity has a verbal component, so unless your vocal apparatus is faster than light you're out of luck. Time Stop, being named opposite to what it actually does, is similarly shot; if it sped you up to any faster than c you wouldn't be able to see (pun intended), so we can conclude it doesn't. Sure that's probably mixing fluff and crunch a bit, but when you're dealing with such a huge difference in scale you kind of have to.

Silent Celerity, on the other hand... Unless you want to get into nerve transmission speeds, but that's really splitting hairs.


What this subforum considers "Basic Optimization" might as well be "High Level Vector Calculus" by the vast majority of tabletop gamers.

What do mean by "high level," because I took sophomore-level multivariable and it was nothing special.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

No. I don't read the novelizations, which is why I asked. Prewritten adventure? (Which one?)

*i think I found it, last 2nd edition adventure module "Die Vecna Die!"?

Correct. If I recall correctly the Lady was actuall wasting a bunch of power preventing other gods from following Vecna into Sigil.

[AMFV]

I've had occasion to question Tippy occasionally (I don't buy the whole Epic Fighter Bonus Feats List ⊂ Fighter Bonus Feats List thing for the purposes of Martial Monk cheese, I've seen him endorse a Leap Attack reading that is obviously wrong based on the rules for how multiplication works in D&D, and Overchannel clearly doesn't work for the purposes of increasing Ardents' abilities to learn higher level powers because you can only Overchannel once you start manifesting the power, and therefore need the sufficient ML to pay the minimum cost without Overchannel), but for the vast majority of other things, like the Magic Mantle you mentioned earlier in the thread or Fast Time/Enhanced Magic/whatever Demiplanes, his arguments are pretty convincing from where I'm sitting. While I agree that the RAI of the Magic Mantle is pretty clearly to reinforce Magic-Psionics Transparency in games that use the variant non-transparency rule, I don't see how identical can mean anything other than identical from a RAW standpoint, and any comprehensive definition of "environment" should include planar traits just like he says, even if the designers didn't intend for it to work that way. Most of the things he gets up to from Demiplane abuse on down seem to be pretty well supported by the RAW. Honestly, I'd consider him one of the more reliable people here on that front, it's just that when he does use something fishy, the end result is clearly insane and the fishiness leaves a bigger impression as a result.

I'll agree that he can be a bit bull headed about some things and consequently can occasionally be a bit less polite than some of the others in this thread are saying, but I think his reputation is pretty well deserved on the whole, and I'm always interested in what he's going to say next.

Well his reading of the magic transparency rule allows Psionic Characters to learn spells (which would require additional text in my opinion). My other problem with Tippy is that as time as progressed he's moved from several optimization tricks to using the same set of three or four over and over and over again to solve every problem. There was a point when he would develop newer tricks, or create different optimization ideas, but at this point he just repeats the same tricks to different effect and furthermore his tricks are likely to be shot down even in High OP games.

More on the magic mantle, it states "You treat magic and psionics as identical" Which to my thinking does not allow you to learn spells, because even if your powers can affect spells, Psions don't gain spells per day, nor do they have spells known. So theoretically they could learn Arcane Powers, but since those don't actually exist they still can't learn Spells barring a reading that would allow them to do so. Which is an entirely reasonable reading. And when one-third of Tippy's current tricks require that then it's a problem, because even a high-OP DM could very easily read it that way.

On to his other big trick, the Ice Assassin. Or the Aleax Trick. For that trick to work it requires that items with no listed value, have no value. Which could be ruled either way, from the text. And this has been debated both ways either time. So the end result is that it could go either way, with the text as written.

The issue is that a good optimizer should (in my opinion) take rules that are unambiguous to optimize. Since ambiguous things could either way regardless of the optimization level of the table in question. And since he depends on a series of tricks that he now repeats using again similarly ambiguous text, there's no guarantee that even at a similarly optimized table to his own they'd work, and that to my thinking is poor optimization since it would fail under similar circumstances with a slightly different DM ruling, and because most of his current repertoire depends on those things, with a few rulings not his way it kills most of his options.

As a note, I'm not trying to restart the rules arguments over the semantics of the rules that I mentioned, I'm merely stating that a rational person could read it either way, and the problem is that that allows for either option being equally likely, and not accounting for that is not really good practice, in my opinion.

Edit: Which is for example why when you pointed out to me the Spellcasting Class Advancement for creatures with innate spellcasting, I noted that it could be perceived ambiguously and that that should be discussed with the DM prior.

[FidgetySquirrel]

Everything is similar to something, at least in some ways. Just about nothing is wholly original. Anything, no matter the topic, can be brilliant or terrible. Do you think Eberron is an entity unto itself, unlike any other setting or story in existence? Everything, in the end, comes down to execution and detail. And Tippy's execution and detail, the fundamental principles of optimization that back up that particular work, are just about flawless. You can handwave any differences between works, and skim over what the intended purpose of what he did was, but you miss the point in the process. Tippy's goal in that post was the analysis of the natural consequences of these high magic things. In that goal, he succeeded. I mean, seriously, how could you possibly expect as much detail out of a couple of posts as you get out of a pretty large quantity of complete books?I'd like to chime in again and agree with this. The concept of world-building has been around for so long that pretty much everything has been done at least once. If a person can actually make a truly unique world where the entire premise is the first of it's kind, I'd be hella impressed. Furthermore, Tippy set out with the simple goal of explaining what would happen if high-level magic were treated as an actual part of the world instead of something that just felt tacked-on, and succeeded. Permanent teleportation circles are world-changing, and it's not inconceivable that at least one wizard would be willing to pay the xp cost, knowing that for a wizard at level 17+, getting that xp back is child's play. The premise is well thought-out, as well as the consequences of said premise.

That's my 2 cp, anyway.

[Threadnaught]

Do you think Eberron is an entity unto itself, unlike any other setting or story in existence?

Didn't Keith Baker himself mention stuff about it being influenced by Brotherhood of the Wolf, Casablanca, From Hell, The Maltese Falcon, The Mummy, The Name of the Rose, Pirates of the Caribbean, Raiders of the Lost Ark and Sleepy Hollow?
And that if he had read Song of Ice and Fire before writing Eberron, that would've had some influence and the setting would've been even more similar to that than it currently is?

Yeah, Eberron is nothing original, the whole Warforged thing is totally Isaac Asimov's The Positronic Man and I Robot. Probably, I dunno, we can link random stuff to other things all day. Like how Sonic using seven plot devices and having a Super mode, Superman being powered by the sun or Journey to the West having it's plot, are all derived from Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT.

Giant four legged things with the badguys' army commanders controlling them attacking the heroes' base in LotR: RotK the movie? AT-AT anyone? Which must've been influenced by LotR: RotK the book.

Kal El, the Thundercats and Kakarot all being sent to E'arth to save, save and destroy save it, they're obvious references to Metroman, a hero sent from a dying planet to E'arth to protect Metrocity from the evil of Mega Mind, who was also sent from a dying planet to E'arth so he could be fabulous.
Like all his derivatives, Metroman has a weakness to a strangely common, ultra rare material . Copper, Metroman is weak to one of the rarest and prized minerals in the universe. Which for some strange reason, just so happens to be everywhere on E'arth.
Superman and Thundercats tried to spice things up by making it into pieces of his homeworld, while Dragonball characters can only use their powers for about 20 seconds every half hour episode.

If anyone thinks the connections I've made are grasping at straws, then I believe 've made my point.


For anyone wondering why I'm spelling E'arth this way, I'm a fan of TeamFourStar. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

FYI - the final version of Eberron is not wholly Keith Baker's creation, WotC picked and chose bits and pieces from the other submissions during their campaign setting competition. For example, the Giant said that the Aerenal Elves and their mummification rituals were his idea and came from his own submission.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well his reading of the magic transparency rule allows Psionic Characters to learn spells (which would require additional text in my opinion).
No, it doesn't. Stop saying this and where did you get the idea in the first place. A Psionic character can get all spells converted into powers and then learn those powers but they can't just learn spells.


My other problem with Tippy is that as time as progressed he's moved from several optimization tricks to using the same set of three or four over and over and over again to solve every problem. There was a point when he would develop newer tricks, or create different optimization ideas, but at this point he just repeats the same tricks to different effect and furthermore his tricks are likely to be shot down even in High OP games.
I have a limited amount of time. When people ask "how can I do this rules legally" then I will generally respond with whatever method is easiest and fastest for me to articulate. Very few of those questions are ones that one of a small list of tricks can't allow to be done relatively easily and are sufficiently interesting for me to go and invest the time to find another way to achieve the desired goal.


More on the magic mantle, it states "You treat magic and psionics as identical" Which to my thinking does not allow you to learn spells, because even if your powers can affect spells, Psions don't gain spells per day, nor do they have spells known. So theoretically they could learn Arcane Powers, but since those don't actually exist they still can't learn Spells barring a reading that would allow them to do so. Which is an entirely reasonable reading. And when one-third of Tippy's current tricks require that then it's a problem, because even a high-OP DM could very easily read it that way.
To the best of my recollection I've never made the claim that the magic mantle allowed a psionic character to learn spells, and no most of what I post doesn't require the magic mantle at all.


On to his other big trick, the Ice Assassin. Or the Aleax Trick. For that trick to work it requires that items with no listed value, have no value. Which could be ruled either way, from the text. And this has been debated both ways either time. So the end result is that it could go either way, with the text as written.
No, the RAW on that issue is clear; items with no listed value are in your spell component pouch. That being said. its also irrelevant because I virtually never say "Cast Ice Assassin". I say "Shapechange into a a Zodar and then use your Wish Supernatural Ability to Wish up a Scroll of Ice Assassin of Whatever the hell you want a copy of". Being a scroll, the material components are included and need not be provided.


The issue is that a good optimizer should (in my opinion) take rules that are unambiguous to optimize. Since ambiguous things could either way regardless of the optimization level of the table in question. And since he depends on a series of tricks that he now repeats using again similarly ambiguous text, there's no guarantee that even at a similarly optimized table to his own they'd work, and that to my thinking is poor optimization since it would fail under similar circumstances with a slightly different DM ruling, and because most of his current repertoire depends on those things, with a few rulings not his way it kills most of his options.
No, most of what I post unambiguously works under the rules as written. Most people also dislike those rules. The stuff I regularly post requires no rules interpretation at all, its also stuff that is often houseruled against because a lot of people dislike things like free Wish's for some reason.


As a note, I'm not trying to restart the rules arguments over the semantics of the rules that I mentioned, I'm merely stating that a rational person could read it either way, and the problem is that that allows for either option being equally likely, and not accounting for that is not really good practice, in my opinion.
The rules that you mentioned aren't things that can be read multiple ways by someone conversant in the English language and rules of the game.


Edit: Which is for example why when you pointed out to me the Spellcasting Class Advancement for creatures with innate spellcasting, I noted that it could be perceived ambiguously and that that should be discussed with the DM prior.
I have no idea what you are referring to. If you want to post a link to whatever thread and/or post you are talking about I'll probably give it another look but I seriously have no idea what you are talking about.

[Snowbluff]

Oh hi, Tippy. How has your day been? :smallsmile:

[torrasque666]

We should have gotten Tippy into the guild. Would have been funny to watch that.

[AMFV]

No, it doesn't. Stop saying this and where did you get the idea in the first place. A Psionic character can get all spells converted into powers and then learn those powers but they can't just learn spells.

It was a previous argument where you claimed that even barring a Spell-To-Power Erudite it was possible to learn all spells as Psionic, as I recall. Although I'm not sure what the context was, it was about a year and a half ago.



I have a limited amount of time. When people ask "how can I do this rules legally" then I will generally respond with whatever method is easiest and fastest for me to articulate. Very few of those questions are ones that one of a small list of tricks can't allow to be done relatively easily and are sufficiently interesting for me to go and invest the time to find another way to achieve the desired goal.


Which is a difference in philosophy of optimization overall. I hold that you can't use a limited trick as a solution to all problems particularly ones that are likely to be vetoed.



To the best of my recollection I've never made the claim that the magic mantle allowed a psionic character to learn spells, and no most of what I post doesn't require the magic mantle at all.


Well I retract the statement then, I recollected differently, but as I said it was a year and a half ago, so my recollection may be fuzzy. In any case the point still stands that the tricks that you recommend are not necessarily unambiguous.



No, the RAW on that issue is clear; items with no listed value are in your spell component pouch. That being said. its also irrelevant because I virtually never say "Cast Ice Assassin". I say "Shapechange into a a Zodar and then use your Wish Supernatural Ability to Wish up a Scroll of Ice Assassin of Whatever the hell you want a copy of". Being a scroll, the material components are included and need not be provided.


This is true, but again very likely to be vetoed, because a Zodar is located in Fiend Folio, which is 3.0 rather than 3.5 and is likely to not be permitted for that reason.



No, most of what I post unambiguously works under the rules as written. Most people also dislike those rules. The stuff I regularly post requires no rules interpretation at all, its also stuff that is often houseruled against because a lot of people dislike things like free Wish's for some reason.

And there are a lot of rules that are Ambigious, Zodar are 3.0, a DM could simply defeat the Aleax thing by assigning a value to a piece of an Aleax. The game does not happen in a vacuum, and a trait of good optimization is being aware of what could be ruled one way or another.



The rules that you mentioned aren't things that can be read multiple ways by someone conversant in the English language and rules of the game.


No, the English Language is VERY ambiguous, and rules are not written in a way that lends itself to only one interpretation. A lot of your rulings involve things that are committed from the rules (Spell Components for example) which could be ruled against without violating any rules or require material from 3.0 sources. I'm not saying that you are a poor optimizer, I'm saying I disagree with the philosophy of optimization you use, and the cult of personality that surrounds you on the board. Because again as I've stated, in my opinion (and very much my opinion), that good optimization involves focusing on the things that are unambigious or are likely to be ruled in your favor. The game does not occur in a vacuum, DM rulings are a part of it, and claiming that those are irrelevant is in my opinion is not the best optimization philosophy.



I have no idea what you are referring to. If you want to post a link to whatever thread and/or post you are talking about I'll probably give it another look but I seriously have no idea what you are talking about.

It's not anything you had contributed to, it was a reference to a previous discussion with the poster I was replying to.

Edit: And my post is not intended as an attack against you, but rather your philosophy of optimization. I disagree with it, and with the cult of personality that surrounds you, cults of personality make me very very edgy.

[Brookshw]

Correct. If I recall correctly the Lady was actuall wasting a bunch of power preventing other gods from following Vecna into Sigil.

Ehhhhhh.....sort of.....

In like
manner, should the Lady reveal herself in her true form
in all its aching majesty to do battle with the waxing
god, the multiverse would come undone like a mobile
whose strings are simultaneously severed. So, she waits.


She kinda had the choice of "get involved and destroy everything" or stay back (a reverse deus ex machina if you will) but Vecna's presence (entry gained by "pre-god" shenanigans) is screwing with the wards. And then of course afterward she goes on to rewrite all of reality to prevent this type of shenanigan ever happening again.

[ImNotTrevor]

No, the English Language is VERY ambiguous, and rules are not written in a way that lends itself to only one interpretation. A lot of your rulings involve things that are committed from the rules (Spell Components for example) which could be ruled against without violating any rules or require material from 3.0 sources. I'm not saying that you are a poor optimizer, I'm saying I disagree with the philosophy of optimization you use, and the cult of personality that surrounds you on the board. Because again as I've stated, in my opinion (and very much my opinion), that good optimization involves focusing on the things that are unambigious or are likely to be ruled in your favor. The game does not occur in a vacuum, DM rulings are a part of it, and claiming that those are irrelevant is in my opinion is not the best optimization philosophy.
of optimization. I disagree with it, and with the cult of personality that surrounds you, cults of personality make me very very edgy.

Optimization at the level Tippy practices is USUALLY (note that qualifier, it's an important one) a theoretical practice in understanding the RAW. It is based on RAW, hard and fast. It is optimization which is occuring in a vacuum because it is usually theoretical rather than practical. Most people never go to the store and buy 300 bottles of soda for 45 cents each, but we still do math problems about it when we're kids. This isn't done so that we know what to do when that situation actually occurs. It is a theoretical application of the RAW of math. A totally bizarre and highly unlikely situation, but the math, when done correctly, will still be sound.

As far as I know, Tippy plays with a group that allows these shenanigans whole-heartedly. This level of optimization is normal for his group of players, and therefore he has gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

I myself don't know how to optimize very well, but I like reading the crazy optimization hijinks one can get up to. It is amusing, and gives a general idea of how to do fun builds. (I will never walk into a store and buy 300 bottles of soda for 45 cents each, but I still know how to apply multiplication to my purchasing habits.)

TL;DR
It is pointless to say that Tippy's brand of Optimization is bad because it assumes a vacuum, when that assumption is usually considered to be a given and most of these builds aren't being lauded as things you should totally try in normal play, but as demonstrations of ways to use the RAW in amusing and delightfully destructive ways.

EDIT: Tippy is kinda like Mythbusters. There is science and numbers and such, but you only watch for the explosions. (And please don't try this at home.)

[AMFV]

Optimization at the level Tippy practices is USUALLY (note that qualifier, it's an important one) a theoretical practice in understanding the RAW. It is based on RAW, hard and fast. It is optimization which is occuring in a vacuum because it is usually theoretical rather than practical. Most people never go to the store and buy 300 bottles of soda for 45 cents each, but we still do math problems about it when we're kids. This isn't done so that we know what to do when that situation actually occurs. It is a theoretical application of the RAW of math. A totally bizarre and highly unlikely situation, but the math, when done correctly, will still be sound.

As far as I know, Tippy plays with a group that allows these shenanigans whole-heartedly. This level of optimization is normal for his group of players, and therefore he has gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

I myself don't know how to optimize very well, but I like reading the crazy optimization hijinks one can get up to. It is amusing, and gives a general idea of how to do fun builds. (I will never walk into a store and buy 300 bottles of soda for 45 cents each, but I still know how to apply multiplication to my purchasing habits.)

TL;DR
It is pointless to say that Tippy's brand of Optimization is bad because it assumes a vacuum, when that assumption is usually considered to be a given and most of these builds aren't being lauded as things you should totally try in normal play, but as demonstrations of ways to use the RAW in amusing and delightfully destructive ways.

My issue is not so much with the level of his optimization. But that he claims that his RAW interpretations are entirely unambiguous. I'm fine with high-OP stuff, but I'm very aware that even in a high-OP environment one should be aware of rules that could be interpreted multiple ways.

[Emperor Tippy]

It was a previous argument where you claimed that even barring a Spell-To-Power Erudite it was possible to learn all spells as Psionic, as I recall. Although I'm not sure what the context was, it was about a year and a half ago.
...that seems odd. I mean maybe if you squint and look at the rules from a really odd angle it might theoretically work in some fashion but I seriously question whether I ever made that claim because it really doesn't seem like one that I would make.


Which is a difference in philosophy of optimization overall. I hold that you can't use a limited trick as a solution to all problems particularly ones that are likely to be vetoed.
If people want things that work with their groups houserules then they should post those houserules. And if people are asking how to do absurd things then they should be satisfied with absurd answers.


This is true, but again very likely to be vetoed, because a Zodar is located in Fiend Folio, which is 3.0 rather than 3.5 and is likely to not be permitted for that reason.
And I fundamentally don't care. The straight 3.5 method would be "Gate in a Solar for a blood sample and then use that as the component for Ice Assassin before then using your new Solar as a Wish engine to produce all of the other Ice Assassin's that you want."

Fiend Folio is a valid RAW source for 3.5. That a lot of people don't allow or use it is not something that I care about unless they are specifically asking how to do something and have stated that only certain sources are allowed (and what those sources are).


And there are a lot of rules that are Ambigious, Zodar are 3.0,
All 3.0 is RAW for 3.5 unless something in 3.5 overrides the 3.0 source, nothing does that for the Zodar in specific or Fiend Folio in general.


a DM could simply defeat the Aleax thing by assigning a value to a piece of an Aleax. The game does not happen in a vacuum, and a trait of good optimization is being aware of what could be ruled one way or another.
House Rules. Otherwise known as things that I do not care about when talking about optimization on these forums. And again, whether the DM houserules the material component or not is irrelevant because you don't cast the spell directly and instead use a method that bypasses material components entirely.


No, the English Language is VERY ambiguous, and rules are not written in a way that lends itself to only one interpretation. A lot of your rulings involve things that are committed from the rules (Spell Components for example) which could be ruled against without violating any rules or require material from 3.0 sources. I'm not saying that you are a poor optimizer, I'm saying I disagree with the philosophy of optimization you use, and the cult of personality that surrounds you on the board. Because again as I've stated, in my opinion (and very much my opinion), that good optimization involves focusing on the things that are unambigious or are likely to be ruled in your favor. The game does not occur in a vacuum, DM rulings are a part of it, and claiming that those are irrelevant is in my opinion is not the best optimization philosophy.
Everything involving spell components is clear cut rules as written. Seriously, there is nothing in any of it that is ambiguously worded or open to interpretation. As for the rest, every DM is different and therefore the DM must be excluded from optimization discussions to the greatest extent possible.


It's not anything you had contributed to, it was a reference to a previous discussion with the poster I was replying to.
So you are going after me for what someone else claimed that I said with no evidence that I actually said it in the first place?

[Vaz]

As much as I love other settings, especially Warhammer, Fanboyism annoys me. I'd probably rate WHF as one of the better settings, with Battle Magics higher level abilities capable of dragging a comet out of the heavens, or taking the form of a Dragon.

These are 6th level spells at best. That spacebattles thread is hilarious. Epic Level Wu Jen 16/Archmage 5 outclasses anything Mercer could bring. Chaining uses of Body Outside Body gets them NI DC and CL invisibility before Teleporting Through Time (Contingent) before destroying Mercers family line and whoever/whatever created his virus before it was developed.

Idiocy at its finest.

[AMFV]

So you are going after me for what someone else claimed that I said with no evidence that I actually said it in the first place?

I'm not going to discuss the other statements, I'm just going to point out there is often ambiguity in things that may appear clear cut to somebody that is reading the rules. I'm not even disagreeing with all of your interpretations, only pointing out that they aren't unambiguous, and that the rules are not always perfectly concise.

I will however address this, I wasn't going after you for that statement, that was a completely unrelated conversation, related to a discussion I'd had with the other optimizer, where I wound up interpreting something one way and realized later that it was ambiguous, after others had posted. That's the key here, if somebody posts something different, they may not be wrong, they may have a difference of interpretation, once you've realized that such can exist, then it's wise to point the ambiguity when the trick is presented, as many do.

Again, I don't mind most of your optimization on a personal note. But Tippy=Win, bothers me, it's a cult of personality that I think is unfounded, and people asked for their opinion, which I stated, I don't agree with your philosophy of optimization, and that is largely a matter of taste.

[Vaz]

Which you backed up with false allegations to be fair.

[Psyren]

This is true, but again very likely to be vetoed, because a Zodar is located in Fiend Folio, which is 3.0 rather than 3.5 and is likely to not be permitted for that reason.

And there are a lot of rules that are Ambigious, Zodar are 3.0, a DM could simply defeat the Aleax thing by assigning a value to a piece of an Aleax. The game does not happen in a vacuum, and a trait of good optimization is being aware of what could be ruled one way or another.

Point of order here - Fiend Folio was officially updated to 3.5 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) and Zodar retains its Su Wish. It's not like BoVD where the DM does have to go in and individually approve this or that.

Aleax abuse is another matter, I tend to disregard that too since I consider merging with an Aleax or getting it to serve you to be another way of defeating it.

[Rubik]

If you create your own Ice Assassin aleax, you can always command it to be the one who manifests Fusion and then turns over control to you. Since the aleax is the one who "won," there's no chance that it could possibly be considered "defeated."

[Psyren]

If you create your own Ice Assassin aleax, you can always command it to be the one who manifests Fusion and then turns over control to you. Since the aleax is the one who "won," there's no chance that it could possibly be considered "defeated."


turns over control to you

You pretty much won at that point since it is quite literally surrendering.

[ryu]

You pretty much won at that point since it is quite literally surrendering.

Just fuse with the ice assassin of said aleax then murder the original aleax. The ice assassin has no clause for going away when the original dies last I checked.

[ImNotTrevor]

I'm not going to discuss the other statements, I'm just going to point out there is often ambiguity in things that may appear clear cut to somebody that is reading the rules. I'm not even disagreeing with all of your interpretations, only pointing out that they aren't unambiguous, and that the rules are not always perfectly concise.


Well...I just want to test one of these:



Spell Component Pouch

A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.


If it is a spell component that doesn't have a specific cost, it is considered to be in the pouch. Yes. Even then. ALL material components. (For strict RAW, very unambiguous.)
Divine Focuses aren't in the pouch. (Yeah but what if....nope. Divine Focuses aren't in the pouch.)
Focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch. (The most ambiguous, since a Pouch is just defined as, more often than not, "A small bag." But that doesn't do jack to the component issue.)
If you have a spell component pouch, you have the components you need. (Provided they don't have a specified cost via RAW.)

Given RAW in a vacuum, this is not ambiguous.

I'll grant to you that some rules are VERY ambiguous or nonexistant, (Such as what happens if a Mordenkaiden's Magnificent Mansion is dispelled or otherwise abruptly ends with occupants inside) but that if a persuasive argument can be given to a particular manner of interpretation, or if the optimization uses qualifier such as "which can be interpreted to mean..." then it still stands.

I figure that if the optimizer goes out of their way to use the least ambiguous versions of the rules to accomplish their optimization, then it is generally nitpicking or complaining to try and dig into the somewhat ambiguous notions to try and disprove it or disprove the notion of optimizing in said manner. It smacks of something...not entirely wholesome and unlikely to be based on goodwill or humility. Not sure what, though.

All in all, I think that people who have a big problem with someone on an INTERNET FORUM being popular among that forums users, even if the forumites show an unusual level of passion...are just kinda...lame. Why do you care? It's part of the fun. Let them pretend to be fanatical tippy-worshippers while they type things into text boxes and talk about D&D. It doesn't make the world a worse place, and it certainly doesn't affect your life. Chuckle. Roll your eyes. Appreciate the humor and inherent ludicrousness of such shenanigans and carry on with your day. I'm not popular on the forum. I don't really want to be. I'm just some guy who posts here for the lulz. Tippy's existence and fanbase do me no harm, nor are they a great boon...beyond being rather entertaining. The End.

[Rubik]

You pretty much won at that point since it is quite literally surrendering.Nah. It's a willing participant and as such is no more defeated than a friend that does the same thing.

[Sartharina]

What do mean by "high level," because I took sophomore-level multivariable and it was nothing special.What I mean is I struggled through College Algebra, and anyone who can figure out Trigonometry must be some sort of math wizard-god and I'd rather not be insulted just because I can't figure out how sines and tangents work no matter how many condescending acronyms are tossed at me. :smallmad:

Likewise, most the 'basic optimization' stuff Tippy and others here describe is obscenely overpowered, abusive munchkinry that shouldn't be allowed to work because what the heck is this nonsense?

[Rubik]

Likewise, most the 'basic optimization' stuff Tippy and others here describe is obscenely overpowered, abusive munchkinry that shouldn't be allowed to work because what the heck is this nonsense?How is using the rules as they're written "cheating"?

That's like saying that you cheated by using your Get Out of Jail Free card when you were sent to jail in Monopoly.

[Psyren]

Nah. It's a willing participant and as such is no more defeated than a friend that does the same thing.

An aleax is a special case because it is created from birth to be antagonistic to you. Any success at making it friendly would defeat it.

But the more interesting problem is how you plan to get a hold of one without a deity getting involved, since they don't exist if there are no deities. If you can manipulate a deity into making one for you, why do you even need the Aleax?

[Rubik]

An aleax is a special case because it is created from birth to be antagonistic to you. Any success at making it friendly would defeat it.Ice Assassin. It's subservient from "birth."


But the more interesting problem is how you plan to get a hold of one without a deity getting involved, since they don't exist if there are no deities. If you can manipulate a deity into making one for you, why do you even need the Aleax?Again, Ice Assassin. As Emperor Tippy (may His name be praised in a thousand universes) pointed out, it's not horribly difficult to make one yourself. Just use Eschew Materials when you cast it, or use a Su Wish to nab a scroll thereof.

[ryu]

An aleax is a special case because it is created from birth to be antagonistic to you. Any success at making it friendly would defeat it.

But the more interesting problem is how you plan to get a hold of one without a deity getting involved, since they don't exist if there are no deities. If you can manipulate a deity into making one for you, why do you even need the Aleax?

Because once you've aleax fused you've become absolutely immune to all things in the game including the wrath of other deities? High level optimization by way of immunity.

[Sartharina]

How is using the rules as they're written "cheating"?

That's like saying that you cheated by using your Get Out of Jail Free card when you were sent to jail in Monopoly.The rules as they are written are meant to be guidelines, not unbreakable laws! D&D is a Role-Playing game, not a Board Game.

[(Un)Inspired]

The rules as they are written are meant to be guidelines, not unbreakable laws! D&D is a Role-Playing game, not a Board Game.

Does every thread on this forum dissolve into people telling optimizers they're playing the game wrong these days?

[Rubik]

The rules as they are written are meant to be guidelines, not unbreakable laws! D&D is a Role-Playing game, not a Board Game.That's what Theoretical Optimization is for. With the exceptions of games that explicitly use T.O. as a baseline, said T.O. is specifically for stretching the rules as far as they'd go to see what you can get away with.

It's not for standard D&D games, as is often pointed out. The fact that Tippy uses T.O. in his games is his group's business, and decrying him for it just makes people seem petty and incredibly rude.

[torrasque666]

Does every thread on this forum dissolve into people telling optimizers they're playing the game wrong these days?


Not this again..... I thought we were done and the Guild was going to go about our business in obscurity.

[ImNotTrevor]

The rules as they are written are meant to be guidelines, not unbreakable laws! D&D is a Role-Playing game, not a Board Game.

1. Oh. Hi there, WoTC. Didn't see you there deciding whether rules are Rules or Guidelines. Thanks for the clarification, glad to know you guys still care.

2. Some people like to use the guidelines as unbreakable rules. That's how they play the game. That's their perogative.

3. Most hardcore optimization is theoretical rather than practical. It's an exploration of "Wacky stuff you can do without technically breaking the rules" rather than "What to do at your next session!"

It's just for fun. It is a game. People play it how they want to. No need to use exclamation marks and get your feathers ruffled. It's just a game.

[Psyren]

Ice Assassin. It's subservient from "birth."

Again, Ice Assassin. As Emperor Tippy (may His name be praised in a thousand universes) pointed out, it's not horribly difficult to make one yourself. Just use Eschew Materials when you cast it, or use a Su Wish to nab a scroll thereof.

The weakness of Ice Assassin in this context is that it copies the subject creature exactly - including its purpose to destroy you, in the case of an aleax. This creates another Ice Assassin unstoppable force/immovable object paradox.


Because once you've aleax fused you've become absolutely immune to all things in the game including the wrath of other deities? High level optimization by way of immunity.

You should probably know that nothing in the game is actually beyond the power of deities by RAW:

"What happens when a deity casts miracle? Rather than imploring another deity to perform some task, the deity simply draws from its own divine power. It pays the experience point cost with hardly a second thought, and creates the effect it desires."

[Rubik]

The weakness of Ice Assassin in this context is that it copies the subject creature exactly - including its purpose to destroy you, in the case of an aleax. This creates another Ice Assassin unstoppable force/immovable object paradox.Its purpose is to destroy you, but it's under your command. So command it to not destroy you, and you won't have that problem.


You should probably know that nothing in the game is actually beyond the power of deities by RAW:Tell that to the Elder Evils, since they seem to be able to curbstomp gods quite easily.

Gods really aren't that tough. Killing them is fairly easy, really -- at least, if you know what you're doing. They die all the time, in fact, by WotC's own admission.

[Psyren]

Its purpose is to destroy you, but it's under your command. So command it to not destroy you, and you won't have that problem.

That command is what causes the problem.


Tell that to the Elder Evils and to the lower tier gods, since they can't stand up to the higher tier ones.

Gods really aren't that tough. Killing them is fairly easy, really -- at least, if you know what you're doing. They die all the time, in fact, by WotC's own admission.

Wizards die all the time too - and when you get down to it that is really the point, it is gameplay-story segregation. It is trying to have your cake and eat it - saying that wizards should optimize to the 9s and gods can't, for reasons.

Gods have the capability to never die, just like wizards do. Neither side is really played to its potential outside of TO.

[ryu]

The weakness of Ice Assassin in this context is that it copies the subject creature exactly - including its purpose to destroy you, in the case of an aleax. This creates another Ice Assassin unstoppable force/immovable object paradox.



You should probably know that nothing in the game is actually beyond the power of deities by RAW:

"What happens when a deity casts miracle? Rather than imploring another deity to perform some task, the deity simply draws from its own divine power. It pays the experience point cost with hardly a second thought, and creates the effect it desires."

Which in turn conflicts with another deity level ability. Aleaxs can't be harmed or hindered save by the being they were sent to destroy. Why on earth a deity would be dumb enough to send these copies after the one thing that can stop them rather than selecting multiple powerful targets and having aleaxes of those targets go after other members of the group than their original is beyond me, but hey that's life. Gods in D&D just aren't smart people.

[Pan151]

As regards the whole "Ice assasin of a god" thing, the main problem is that the "portion of the creature to be duplicated" is not the material component in the first place. The material components are the statue and the diamond, while the piece of hair/flesh is just a necessary part of the spell itself. As such, it is necessary even when the spell is cast without components/through a scroll.

That is my reading of it, anyway.

PS. Even if that wasn't the case, wishing for a scroll of an ice assasin of a unique creature with divine rank will only succeed if the DM allows it to.

[Psyren]

Which in turn conflicts with another deity level ability. Aleaxs can't be harmed or hindered save by the being they were sent to destroy.

They can simply miracle that ability away (an act which does not hinder the aleax directly in any way) and by the time any subsequent actions would interfere with it, the ability that would protect it from them is already gone.

[Rubik]

They can simply miracle that ability away (an act which does not hinder the aleax directly in any way) and by the time any subsequent actions would interfere with it, the ability that would protect it from them is already gone.That would be an attack, which it's immune to.

As opposed to commanding an ice assassin to obey you and not try to harm or kill you, which the ice assassin aleax is programmed to respond to already.

[Psyren]

That would be an attack, which it's immune to.

How so? Removing that ability is not itself harmful or a hindrance.

[Elderand]

I disagree with ... the cult of personality that surrounds you, cults of personality make me very very edgy.

But Tippy=Win, bothers me, it's a cult of personality that I think is unfounded

You keep using those words, you might want to check the definition before doing so.

[torrasque666]

After all, its not like we think he's the Great Leader.

[ryu]

How so? Removing that ability is not itself harmful or a hindrance.

Oh yes it is. It directly hinders my plans of making a home out of the cores of dying stars. I can keep coming up with similar tasks incidentally.

[Vaz]

You keep using those words, you might want to check the definition before doing so.

But why let definitions ruin perfectly good hyperbole to prove a nonexistant point based on fallacious third party unsourced evidence.

[Psyren]

Oh yes it is. It directly hinders my plans of making a home out of the cores of dying stars. I can keep coming up with similar tasks incidentally.

Uh, congrats? That doesn't really have anything to do with an aleax.

[Rubik]

If the aleax is not a willing participant, it would be considered an attack against it, to which it would be immune.

Since an aleax ice assassin is perfectly willing to follow orders (else it wouldn't do so), that is not an attack, and so it would not be immune.

[ryu]

Uh, congrats? That doesn't really have anything to do with an aleax.

I think you're missing the point. Aleaxs aren't immune to being harmed or hindered in their specific mission. They're immune to being harmed or hindered. Anything which conflicts with their personal goal(s) or harms them regardless of masochistic goals has no effect on them.

[Psyren]

If the aleax is not a willing participant, it would be considered an attack against it, to which it would be immune.

Since an aleax ice assassin is perfectly willing to follow orders (else it wouldn't do so), that is not an attack, and so it would not be immune.

That logic requires that the aleax consider anything it is unaware of to be an attack. In which case you could just as easily say that your attempt to create an ice assassin copy of it is also an attack, since that would hinder its mission to destroy you, and therefore the ice assassin would fail. Alternatively, since it has all of your own abilities, it could create an ice assassin of its own aleax, fuse with that and become immune to anything you try to do against it.

Needless to say this arms race can get ridiculous quickly.

The deity can also use miracle to change history so that the aleax was never created and you never fused with it. It can even use its portfolio sense to do this before you would have even had the idea to try it.

Again, the large failing of this kind of TO is that it only assumes the wizard is played to potential and not the deity, for no adequate reason. The only real way for the wizard to achieve the pinnacle is if there is no deity, but without deities there are no aleaxes either.


I think you're missing the point. Aleaxs aren't immune to being harmed or hindered in their specific mission. They're immune to being harmed or hindered. Anything which conflicts with their personal goal(s) or harms them regardless of masochistic goals has no effect on them.

This is not quite correct - they're immune to attacks that harm and hinder them. Removing an ability that does nothing on its own is not an attack, and neither is changing history around them.

[Brookshw]

Just remember Psyren, all things being equal the pcs blood hair etc likewise is in that spell component pouch. The shenanigans are endless!

So are we done with the Die Vecna Die the lady was defeated nonsense? If so, carry on.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yeah, Eberron is nothing original, the whole Warforged thing is totally Isaac Asimov's The Positronic Man and I Robot. Probably, I dunno, we can link random stuff to other things all day. Like how Sonic using seven plot devices and having a Super mode, Superman being powered by the sun or Journey to the West having it's plot, are all derived from Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT.

I think you flipped things around. Dragon Ball is derived from Journey to the West, not the other way around.

Because I don't play in Eberron, I didn't realize that Tippy was just describing that setting and passing it off as his own until Mato did the detailed side-by-side comparison.


items with no listed value are in your spell component pouch.

The items with negligible cost are assumed to be in the pouch. Assumed leaves wiggle room for the DM to remind the players they've never met a deity, and have no deity parts, it means the default position is that those components would be there, it does not however mean that they necessarily are there.

So by the RAW, components with no listed cost might be in your pouch.


Edit: And my post is not intended as an attack against you, but rather your philosophy of optimization. I disagree with it, and with the cult of personality that surrounds you, cults of personality make me very very edgy.

Best feat ever in the Fallout series.


As regards the whole "Ice assasin of a god" thing, the main problem is that the "portion of the creature to be duplicated" is not the material component in the first place. The material components are the statue and the diamond, while the piece of hair/flesh is just a necessary part of the spell itself. As such, it is necessary even when the spell is cast without components/through a scroll.

That is my reading of it, anyway.

The other problem is that material components are consumed by the casting of the spell. Technically the thing that is to become the ice assassin is destroyed instantly upon casting of the spells.

[Somensjev]

That logic requires that the aleax consider anything it is unaware of to be an attack. In which case you could just as easily say that your attempt to create an ice assassin copy of it is also an attack, since that would hinder its mission to destroy you, and therefore the ice assassin would fail. Alternatively, since it has all of your own abilities, it could create an ice assassin of its own aleax, fuse with that and become immune to anything you try to do against it.

Needless to say this arms race can get ridiculous quickly.

The deity can also use miracle to change history so that the aleax was never created and you never fused with it. It can even use its portfolio sense to do this before you would have even had the idea to try it.

Again, the large failing of this kind of TO is that it only assumes the wizard is played to potential and not the deity, for no adequate reason. The only real way for the wizard to achieve the pinnacle is if there is no deity, but without deities there are no aleaxes either.



This is not quite correct - they're immune to attacks that harm and hinder them. Removing an ability that does nothing on its own is not an attack, and neither is changing history around them.

It is assumed that the Deities don't interfere in TO, yes. This is because TO ignores what any DM might rule, since it's irrelevant, and the Deities acting is dependent upon the DM. When TO is applied, there is no "DM", there is just RAW, Tippy's ideas work with the RAW, however many DM's won't allow it, this, however, is irrelevant, because of reason i've already stated, and that Tippy said better.

[Psyren]

It is assumed that the Deities don't interfere in TO, yes. This is because TO ignores what any DM might rule, since it's irrelevant, and the Deities acting is dependent upon the DM. When TO is applied, there is no "DM", there is just RAW, Tippy's ideas work with the RAW, however many DM's won't allow it, this, however, is irrelevant, because of reason i've already stated, and that Tippy said better.

And normally I'm a-okay with this. But Aleaxes explicitly only exist if a deity creates them, so if you assume no deities you have to also assume no aleaxes.

[ryu]

That logic requires that the aleax consider anything it is unaware of to be an attack. In which case you could just as easily say that your attempt to create an ice assassin copy of it is also an attack, since that would hinder its mission to destroy you, and therefore the ice assassin would fail. Alternatively, since it has all of your own abilities, it could create an ice assassin of its own aleax, fuse with that and become immune to anything you try to do against it.

Needless to say this arms race can get ridiculous quickly.

The deity can also use miracle to change history so that the aleax was never created and you never fused with it. It can even use its portfolio sense to do this before you would have even had the idea to try it.

Again, the large failing of this kind of TO is that it only assumes the wizard is played to potential and not the deity, for no adequate reason. The only real way for the wizard to achieve the pinnacle is if there is no deity, but without deities there are no aleaxes either.



This is not quite correct - they're immune to attacks that harm and hinder them. Removing an ability that does nothing on its own is not an attack, and neither is changing history around them.

No the aleax can't be immune to the ice assassin creation. It's not immune to anything the person it's sent to destroy does. This is why no part of the plan involves getting a minion to do the work.

Edit: Also at what point is there a rule requiring the scroll of ice assassin (Su) wished for actually be of a being that exists?

[Svata]

I think you flipped things around. Dragon Ball is derived from Journey to the West, not the other way around.

I do beleve that was the point. The only one of those that ripped of DBZ in any way was Sonic with his glowy, golden super mode.

[Brookshw]

Anyone one else interested to see one of tippy's campaign journals? I'd love to personally.

[Rubik]

That logic requires that the aleax consider anything it is unaware of to be an attack.Exactly. It's literally immune to any attack that can be thrown against it, whether it's aware of it or not.


In which case you could just as easily say that your attempt to create an ice assassin copy of it is also an attack, since that would hinder its mission to destroy you, and therefore the ice assassin would fail.Except it doesn't have that ability until it's already in existence, and by that point the aleax is already compliant due to being an ice assassin.


Alternatively, since it has all of your own abilities, it could create an ice assassin of its own aleax, fuse with that and become immune to anything you try to do against it.If you didn't order it to not take any action that harms or hinders you and gave it a large enough amount of time, yes. But you're creating something whose initial purpose is to destroy you. Why would you let it do so when all it takes are the words "Stop and listen to me" to make it listen to you? Talking is a free action, after all.


Needless to say this arms race can get ridiculous quickly.This is T.O. Of course it is.


The deity can also use miracle to change history so that the aleax was never created and you never fused with it. It can even use its portfolio sense to do this before you would have even had the idea to try it.Only if a god is involved, and as no gods are involved in the process, this is a nonissue. Not to mention that you'd still be immune due to it being an attack against you. At most you'd have a splinter timeline where the combo was interrupted beforehand; you (as your aleax self) would be just fine. Plus, nothing in the rules says that gods must get involved, so as NPCs, it'd be DM fiat to ensure that it happens, which is entirely up to individual DMs, and thus can't be assumed.


Again, the large failing of this kind of TO is that it only assumes the wizard is played to potential and not the deity, for no adequate reason. The only real way for the wizard to achieve the pinnacle is if there is no deity, but without deities there are no aleaxes either.No deities involved. Not no deities period. You don't need a deity to perform this combo. It's all right here in this thread, no deities needed.


This is not quite correct - they're immune to attacks that harm and hinder them. Removing an ability that does nothing on its own is not an attack, and neither is changing history around them.Using an ability that excises part of what you are would be considered an attack -- it's certainly not beneficial, or even neutral to (essentially) mindrape you into being something you don't want to be.

[Somensjev]

And normally I'm a-okay with this. But Aleaxes explicitly only exist if a deity creates them, so if you assume no deities you have to also assume no aleaxes.

you don't assume there are no Deities, you assume that there's no reason for the Deity to stop you, since the only reason a Deity would act, would be if a DM decided they did, but, since there are no DM's, then there's no reason for them to act

[Vogonjeltz]

I do beleve that was the point. The only one of those that ripped of DBZ in any way was Sonic with his glowy, golden super mode.

Ah, that was not clear

[Psyren]

Using an ability that excises part of what you are would be considered an attack -- it's certainly not beneficial, or even neutral to (essentially) mindrape you into being something you don't want to be.

Then word the miracle thusly: "This effect removes the Singular Enemy from an aleax you designate, even if the aleax would otherwise be immune to this effect."


you don't assume there are no Deities, you assume that there's no reason for the Deity to stop you, since the only reason a Deity would act, would be if a DM decided they did, but, since there are no DM's, then there's no reason for them to act

If they are not acting, how is the aleax created? Creating one is an act.



Edit: Also at what point is there a rule requiring the scroll of ice assassin (Su) wished for actually be of a being that exists?

That is inherited from simulacrum. You can't "duplicate" something that doesn't exist, by definition.

[Somensjev]

If they are not acting, how is the aleax created? Creating one is an act.

the aleax does not technically need to exist for you to make an ice assassin of it, it just needs to have once existed, or possibly exist in the future

edit: i missed the rest of your post.

say you have a level 20 wizard, who hates a shop keeper, then teleports through time to a date before the shop keeper was alive, he then proceeds to make an ice assassin of the shop keeper
you've just made an ice assassin of a creature that doesn't currently exist

as far as i can tell, there is also nothing stopping you from making an ice assassin of a defeated aleax


as long as it has existed, exists, or might exist one day, then it's a valid creature to create

[Rubik]

Then word the miracle thusly: "This effect removes the Singular Enemy from an aleax you designate, even if the aleax would otherwise be immune to this effect." If you plan on going up against deities, it's probably a good idea to carry a spellblade with Miracle on it. Otherwise, it has no bearing on the conversation, since the character doesn't need a god's intervention to make the combo work.

[Werephilosopher]

Edit: Also at what point is there a rule requiring the scroll of ice assassin (Su) wished for actually be of a being that exists?

"An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature."


After all, its not like we think he's the Great Leader.

...we don't? :smallconfused: :smallbiggrin:

[Somensjev]

"An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature."

touche

excuse me while i try to find a way around this

[Shining Wrath]

I was going to put a big post together, but I'll leave it aside for the two main points. First, what you're saying is wildly inaccurate on just about every level. Second, this is going to end poorly.

The pixels were of a black hue, but I still somehow read it as blue.

[ryu]

"An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature."



...we don't? :smallconfused: :smallbiggrin:

So what you're saying is that we need to make lucid dreaming shenanigans happen? I'm okay with that.

[Somensjev]

"An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature."

touche

excuse me while i try to find a way around this

ice assassin of a god with power, or something similar, in their portfolio

command said ice assassin to make an aleax of yourself

trap the aleax, without killing

wish up a scroll of an ice assassin of it

kill the aleax. the ice assassin stays

[ryu]

That works too. Lucid dreaming is much cleaner in number of steps though.

[eggynack]

The pixels were of a black hue, but I still somehow read it as blue.
Which? Mine or his? His could have been sarcastic at the time, but were later reasonably shown to be not so. Mine are definitely not sarcasm, and if that wasn't completely clear, I can say it right now.

[Psyren]

If you plan on going up against deities, it's probably a good idea to carry a spellblade with Miracle on it. Otherwise, it has no bearing on the conversation, since the character doesn't need a god's intervention to make the combo work.

The spellblade will protect you but not itself. So they can miracle your spellblade(s) away or render the spellblade(s) inert, prior to affecting you.

"As characters of around 60th level, deities can freely pay even large XP costs. Consider that a deity has a safe cushion of around 30,000 XP it can use every week for creating magic items and casting spells with experience point costs."


touche

excuse me while i try to find a way around this

There is an easy way around this - assume deities that do nothing. (Of course, without them, aleaxes don't exist, but it's not like you need aleaxes to break the game.)

[Somensjev]

That works too. Lucid dreaming is much cleaner in number of steps though.

unfortunately i'm not very familiar with lucid dreaming :smallredface:

i'm still getting used to trying to optimize. honestly, i just use stuff i've seen and liked, and put my own spin on it. Like ice assassin of a black pudding. Because who doesn't love a self replicating high level caster

[ryu]

unfortunately i'm not very familiar with lucid dreaming :smallredface:

i'm still getting used to trying to optimize. honestly, i just use stuff i've seen and liked, and put my own spin on it. Like ice assassin of a black pudding. Because who doesn't love a self replicating high level caster

Google it. Everything about that skill just is the shenanigans.

[Shining Wrath]

That command is what causes the problem.



Wizards die all the time too - and when you get down to it that is really the point, it is gameplay-story segregation. It is trying to have your cake and eat it - saying that wizards should optimize to the 9s and gods can't, for reasons.

Gods have the capability to never die, just like wizards do. Neither side is really played to its potential outside of TO.

With their foresight related to their portfolios, the gods ought to be able to identify people with the potential to become high-level casters of the wrong alignment and take care of them before they have godlike power.

Since every alignment is the wrong alignment to some god, it follows that if the gods are TO, there are no TO casters alive.

[Shining Wrath]

Which? Mine or his? His could have been sarcastic at the time, but were later reasonably shown to be not so. Mine are definitely not sarcasm, and if that wasn't completely clear, I can say it right now.

Oh, his. I hadn't read further in the thread yet and being the ridiculously optimistic person I am assumed he must be joking.

[Rubik]

With their foresight related to their portfolios, the gods ought to be able to identify people with the potential to become high-level casters of the wrong alignment and take care of them before they have godlike power.

Since every alignment is the wrong alignment to some god, it follows that if the gods are TO, there are no TO casters alive.Or any high level characters at all, since they're going to be a thorn in the side for some deity or other.

Hell, various gods hate the undead, so none of those. And gods of undeath hate the living, so we can't have any of those, either. Not to mention oozes, plants, animals, creatures of positive or negative energy, fire, cold, electricity, acid, blah blah blah.