How to build a Red Mantis Assassin?

[Frosty]

Hi all, one of my friends is going to be rebuilding his existing Rogue/Assassin into a Red Mantis Assassin, and I'm pretty sure he'll insist on his entry being 5 levels of Rogue. He hasn't decided on the stat allocations yet, although he knows both Con and Cha will be important, but so is Dex for the TWF line of feats. This campaign will probably go to level 20 (we are currently level 8), and I'd appreciate some optimization advice as to help my friend not fall behind the rest of the group. His assassin regularly got knocked out in fights and was useless in some of the encounters (he is a melee fighter with meh AC, low to average HP, and no miss chance). The rest of the group includes a Summoner (standard), a Wizard, and a Oracle6/Fighter2.

[Anlashok]

Yeah, RMA is MAD as all hell... and doesn't get a very good spell list... and has the worst death attack ever (which is saying a lot considering death attack itself is bad).

I'd go with at least two levels of ranger for free TWF, though I forgot which archetype I liked for RMA. Put the rest into rogue. You need either ranger 2 and human or fighter 2 to qualify after 5 levels anyways because of the feat requirements.

[Frosty]

the character is a drow, so human is no go. I'm not sure he'll spring for Ranger levels either.

[Snowbluff]

Want spells, good stats, and be a sneaky drow?

Vivisectionist?

[grarrrg]

he'll insist on his entry being 5 levels of Rogue. He hasn't decided on the stat allocations yet, although he knows both Con and Cha will be important, but so is Dex for the TWF line of feats.
This devolves to the good old STR vs. DEX argument.
Mantis pretty much demands you use the Sawtooth Sabre. And ain't no way you get to apply DEX to anything on the Sawtooth Sabre.

So you either go the STR route, but still need 15 DEX for the stupid feat, OR you go the DEX route and wind up unable to hit anything, let alone do any damage.

Basically the class fights itself.

Have him stick to 15/16 DEX, forget about 'Imp TWF', and have him go the STR route.


You need either ranger 2 and human or fighter 2 to qualify after 5 levels anyways because of the feat requirements.

Rogues can burn Rogue Talents to get Weapon Focus, and/or any Combat Feat. So Rogue 5 can qualify if they don't mind having _1_ Feat/Talent to choose freely.

[Frosty]

This devolves to the good old STR vs. DEX argument.
Mantis pretty much demands you use the Sawtooth Sabre. And ain't no way you get to apply DEX to anything on the Sawtooth Sabre.

So you either go the STR route, but still need 15 DEX for the stupid feat, OR you go the DEX route and wind up unable to hit anything, let alone do any damage.

Basically the class fights itself.

Have him stick to 15/16 DEX, forget about 'Imp TWF', and have him go the STR route.



Rogues can burn Rogue Talents to get Weapon Focus, and/or any Combat Feat. So Rogue 5 can qualify if they don't mind having _1_ Feat/Talent to choose freely.The DM says he can apply Weapon Finesse to the Sawtooth Sabre, so he has that going for him at least. Can probably get an enchantment for Dex to Damage I think?

[Snowbluff]

The Agile Enchantment. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile)

This is another one of the reasons why I suggest Vivisectionist. Agile on an Amulet of Might Fists is cheaper per weapon. :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

The DM says he can apply Weapon Finesse to the Sawtooth Sabre, so he has that going for him at least. Can probably get an enchantment for Dex to Damage I think?


The Agile Enchantment. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile)

^ This ^
This would go a LONG way towards making this build viable.

[Frosty]

How would he go about building a drow Vivisectionist?

[Psyren]

How would he go about building a drow Vivisectionist?

Alchemist Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hChbcEsEfQsR7NkwKlzO-GLYtrOtxlkGHpRQgKKZ5gc/edit#)

[Kudaku]

If you can wait a few weeks, I'd strongly recommend that you consider the slayer, it's being released with the upcoming advanced class guide on August 14th. It mixes rogue and ranger mechanics to make very effective "assassins"-type characters.

It also has a range of archetypes that specialize in different ways of killing - including one inspired by Ezio from the assassin's creed games.

[Snowbluff]

How would he go about building a drow Vivisectionist?
Well, how about this:

Get the Str up to 13.
Dex as high as it will go. My friend put this at
Con should be at least 12 after drow's -2. It ill be hard, but having 10 or a penalty will be rough.
Int doesn't need to be high, but I think it needs to be high enough for Extracts, IIRC. Get 14?
Wis... keep it at 12. Your Dex mutagen will give you -2 to wis.
Cha, bring it down to 7 in a PB. Drow have a +2 to Cha

Pick your discoveries. Infusion + Tumor Familiar will give you a monkey that can buff you without taking your actions up. This includes extracts like invisibility.


If you don't want to take all of the to-hit penalties or GP costs of TWF, Feral Mutagen will give you 3 natural attacks.

As an alchemist:
Trade Bomb for Sneak Attack.
Trade your redundant poison abilities for Beastmorph Alchemist (opens up flight, pounce, and other benefits)
You Favored Class is Alchemist. Spend the point to double the duration of your mutagen.

Suggest Feats:
Weapon Finesse, Power Attack (you'll see), Cornugan Smash (free intimidate with PA), Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses (Cornugan Smash now lets you Flat Foot your opponent).

For Drow: Darklands Stalker and Surface Infiltrator will let your round out your abilities.

[Frosty]

If you can wait a few weeks, I'd strongly recommend that you consider the slayer, it's being released with the upcoming advanced class guide on August 14th. It mixes rogue and ranger mechanics to make very effective "assassins"-type characters.

It also has a range of archetypes that specialize in different ways of killing - including one inspired by Ezio from the assassin's creed games.I'll go check out the slayer. Is the beta version any good?

Also, thanks Snowbluff!

EDIT: Kudaku, I just read the beta PDF, and I'm not seeing any archetypes. Where are they supposed to be?

[Kudaku]

The archetypes haven't been released yet, just described in the Slayer preview blog on paizo.com. The Ezio archetype is named 'cutthroat', I believe.

The play test slayer was improved on (more slayer talents, better action economy for studied target etc) in the final class, but as far as I know not dramatically changed.

You could wait till the ACG is released on August 14th and see the final class, or make a play test slayer and update it when the full class is released in a few weeks.

[Frosty]

Hmm, Slayers can get ranger Combat Style feats. This means the character can pick up TWF line without needing high dex. In that case, she can save a feat and the two Agile enchantments if she focuses Str instead and wears Medium instead of Light armor. Is that a good idea for a multiclass Slayer/RMA?

[Kudaku]

From a wealth perspective I'd say you're better off focusing on strength, but that means you'll probably be wanting heavier armor, your stealth skill won't be as high etc - it depends on how you envision your character really.