How important is HiPS?

[justiceforall]

Hi playground,

I'm currently playing a non-caster character who is has a pretty strong subtheme of stealth and scouting. He's only level 2 at the moment, but I was looking ahead and trying to figure out various ways I could take the character, and I realised that my expected build doesn't have Hide in Plain Sight. Thing is I've never played a stealth character past level 4, so I'm not sure how important HiPS actually is. I don't want to try any hide-in-melee shennanigans, I'd be fine with just sneaking around, looking at stuff, and occasionally leaping from the shadows to smack something.

How important is it? Are there other things I could do to approximate it?

[Know(Nothing)]

Per the SRD, if people are observing you, even casually, you can't hide. So once you're exposed, if you want to re-hide, you need HiPS(however, being totally concealed obviates the need for a hide check since you can't be seen.) Now if things you're dealing with have ways of observing you beyond just looking at you(they will) then you need not only HiPS but Darkstalker as well. Most people just suck it up and buy a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis to get HiPS, among other nice benefits.

[heavyfuel]

I'd put it as a one of my priorities. Besides the obvious of needing high Hide and Move Silently, you first need Darkstalker, otherwise HiPS will be useless against many enemies. Afterwards comes HiPS - that's the (Su) one that lets you hide near shadows which you an get from dipping Shadowdancer and from some other places as well.

[Urpriest]

It's the only real way to leverage your stealth abilities in combat. If you never intend to use stealth for combat, it won't be necessary...but then you probably don't need much investment in stealth in the first place.

[justiceforall]

Already got darkstalker on the list, and I've already met one creature with tremorsense where it would have been handy.

A vast majority of our game time will be dungeons as we are probably playing 90%ish prerolleds if that makes any difference.

I don't really expect to be trying to hide whilst being observed, once I'm detected the plan is just to move to melee? As I said I would like to be able to leap from the shadows and hit something with a surprise round, or stay slightly ahead of the party and scout (not too far though). Leaping from the shadows to jump kick things has been pretty fun thus far, and invisible fist should offer me an ability that lets me move between cover when there is a gap I ordinarily couldn't hide in.

Does HiPS even work against creatures with darkvision (since they ignore shadows)?

EDIT: Actually that's another good question - does Darkstalker let invisibility function against creatures with tremorsense/etc?

[Know(Nothing)]

EDIT: Actually that's another good question - does Darkstalker let invisibility function against creatures with tremorsense/etc?

If their only mode of vision is tremorsense, they can't see you anyway, so invisibility doesn't help. Making Hide checks with Darkstalker forces them to make "Spot" checks against your Hide check, rather than just outright detecting you.

So say the enemy had normal vision and you are invisible. If you are standing still, they need a Spot of 50 to pinpoint you. If they have tremorsense, they pinpoint you without a Spot check. If you have Darkstalker, then they need to make a Spot check vs. your Hide check even if they have tremorsense.

[Crake]

If their only mode of vision is tremorsense, they can't see you anyway, so invisibility doesn't help. Making Hide checks with Darkstalker forces them to make "Spot" checks against your Hide check, rather than just outright detecting you.

So say the enemy had normal vision and you are invisible. If you are standing still, they need a Spot of 50 to pinpoint you. If they have tremorsense, they pinpoint you without a Spot check. If you have Darkstalker, then they need to make a Spot check vs. your Hide check even if they have tremorsense.

Tremorsense lets you see enemies that are invisible as long as they are in contact with the ground

[TypoNinja]

Without HiPS you need to have something to hide behind in order to attempt to hide.

This pretty much prevents you from sneaking in anywhere important. Since anything worth guarding will have at minimum a clear space in front of a door, and likely a sentry and a light source. Without HiPS you pretty much can't sneak past guards without magic.

[Know(Nothing)]

Tremorsense lets you see enemies that are invisible as long as they are in contact with the ground

No, it lets you sense their location-- and yes, there is a difference.

If you blind a creature that has normal vision and tremorsense, it can still pinpoint your location, but you still have total concealment to it, because it can't see you.

[ace rooster]

Without HiPS you need to have something to hide behind in order to attempt to hide.

This pretty much prevents you from sneaking in anywhere important. Since anything worth guarding will have at minimum a clear space in front of a door, and likely a sentry and a light source. Without HiPS you pretty much can't sneak past guards without magic.

HiPS does not remove the need for concealment on it's own. It permits you to re-hide while being observed, but it does nothing if you have not been discovered. They still do not even need to roll a spot check to see you if you don't have concealment. On the other hand potions of blur are reasonably cheap, and last 3 mins.

[nedz]

HiPS is very good for a stealth focussed character. Note: there are, at least, two forms of HiPS — read the small print.

Camouflage, the ability — not the spell, is also very good. Grants cover in any natural terrain — you still need cover for some forms of HiPS.

[Karnith]

HiPS does not remove the need for concealment on it's own.
The good versions of Hide in Plain Sight do; see e.g. the Shadowdancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm) class feature.

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.(Emphasis mine)

[nedz]

Well if you are getting HiPS via Ranger or Scout, then you will already have Camouflage. You just have to operate in natural terrain.

[awa]

a ring of dark hidden i think negates dark vision its also cheap 2000 gold. magic item compendium
Note this is all from memory several years old so i might not be exactly right

[Story]

Ring of Darkhidden makes you invisible. So it won't help if they already have ways of seeing invisibility, but it's useful at low-mid levels.

[Curmudgeon]

Does HiPS even work against creatures with darkvision (since they ignore shadows)?
What makes you think that?
Darkvision

Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black and white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision. There's no mention of shadows there. If invisible objects or creatures are still invisible, creatures who are visually undetectable because they're hiding are still visually undetectable.

For that matter, a Shadowdancer or Assassin doesn't need to hide in shadows at all. Their Hide in Plain Sight is Supernatural (i.e., magical) and works when they're near (within 10 feet) of any size shadow, even that of a single blade of grass.

[ace rooster]

The good versions of Hide in Plain Sight do; see e.g. the Shadowdancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm) class feature.


Removing the need for concealment to hide is not the core ability of HiPS (there are versions that don't grant it), and there are easier ways to get the concealment required to hide in the open. The question is not about hiding in the open, it is about HiPS, which is the ability to hide while being observed.

Incidently, do you get shadows in the area of a daylight spell? Do you get shadows at all? The definition of a shadow is in the hands of the DM, so the milage of the ability will vary considerably. Many guarded locations will be well lit, so the shadowdancer HiPS would not grant you the ability to sneak past anyway.

[VoxRationis]

Per the SRD, if people are observing you, even casually, you can't hide. So once you're exposed, if you want to re-hide, you need HiPS(however, being totally concealed obviates the need for a hide check since you can't be seen.) Now if things you're dealing with have ways of observing you beyond just looking at you(they will) then you need not only HiPS but Darkstalker as well. Most people just suck it up and buy a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis to get HiPS, among other nice benefits.

Bluff and Improved Diversion work well for re-hiding.

[PraxisVetli]

Can Shadowdancers HiPS in their own shadow?

[VoxRationis]

It explicitly says no.

[Svata]

However, noting says two shadowdancers cannot simultaneously hide in each other's shadows.

[Curmudgeon]

Incidently, do you get shadows in the area of a daylight spell? Do you get shadows at all? The definition of a shadow is in the hands of the DM, so the milage of the ability will vary considerably. Daylight will create very noticeable shadows, because it's a strong point light source.
The object touched sheds light as bright as full daylight in a 60-foot radius, and dim light for an additional 60 feet beyond that.

Many guarded locations will be well lit, so the shadowdancer HiPS would not grant you the ability to sneak past anyway. On the contrary: well lit areas produce lots of shadows, which is exactly what the Shadowdancer needs. It's areas with no light at all that foil their Hide in Plain Sight.

[justiceforall]

Daylight will create very noticeable shadows, because it's a strong point light source.
On the contrary: well lit areas produce lots of shadows, which is exactly what the Shadowdancer needs. It's areas with no light at all that foil their Hide in Plain Sight.

Interesting interaction - the character that is all about darkness needs some light :).

Regarding your comment about darkvision / hide interactions - my thinking was - I can move down a darkened corridor whilst hiding in shadowy illumination (since it provides concealment?) even if there is no cover to hide behind. Darkvision has no concept of "shadowy illumination" so I can't hide in the dimly lit corridor against a creature that has it?

[Curmudgeon]

Regarding your comment about darkvision / hide interactions - my thinking was - I can move down a darkened corridor whilst hiding in shadowy illumination (since it provides concealment?) even if there is no cover to hide behind. Darkvision has no concept of "shadowy illumination" so I can't hide in the dimly lit corridor against a creature that has it?
That's right if (1) you don't have something which removes the need for cover/concealment (Camouflage or Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight), (2) you're up against an enemy using darkvision instead of normal vision, and (3) there's nothing interfering with the darkvision (such as a Ring of the Darkhidden).