anti-anti-mage challenge

[Seppo87]

The anti-mage threads have the potential to be pretty interesting in my opinion, however, it is nearly impossible to reach a conclusion since for every possible strategy that one could employ, there are counters and counter-counters.
It is commonly assumed that a wizard has all the counters ready at any given moment. While this is theoretically true, it can't be true in practice.
How prepared is an actual, adventuring spellcaster with limited prepared spells and wealth by level?
Not a theoretical spellcaster whose abilities are changed on the fly just to answer a user on Giantitp, an actual spellcaster going on with his life who might be faced with the chance of meeting an anti-mage at some point in his life.

So here's the challenge: Build an ECL 20 full arcane character who is
-prepared for a standard adventuring day with his friends Core Fighter, Healbot Cleric, and Skillmonkey Rogue
-playable at a real table with a sane DM (cheese it with moderation)
-you would want to play it, or you actually did

Other users will then describe how they believe they could kill such a mage. You can employ as many of your resources to protect yourself from sudden assaults from angry anti-mages. You can assume your caster considers the chance a reality. Anyway, assume most anti-casters to be mind-blanked somehow.

Refer to Iron Chef Optimization Challenge for character creation rules.

Will your wizard survive?

note: While this might seem unfair, this is exactly the situation currently going on in the anti-mage threads, only backwards.
Also, should you actually demonstrate how your build is effectively invulnerable vs mundanes+WBL this would be, like, the ultimate victory

(optional) hard mode: make your caster core only

shall we begin?

[eggynack]

This isn't the level to do this. The solution at 20 is to just keep up shapechange all day, tossing out free wishes like they're nothing, and backing that up with as many immunities and contingencies as you can get your hands on. You just don't really need anything else, at least not against any sort of mundane opponent. You can have more, whether in the form of ice assassins or astral projections from a private demiplane or whatever else you may imagine, but you don't need more. You should probably toss it down to 13 or so, maybe a little in either direction.

[Seppo87]

Are free wishes considered the norm at the average gaming table?
(I'm not asking ironically, just wondering if I'm just that clueless)

Anyway, your post sounds pretty vague. What contingencies would you set up? What's your gear? What spells do you prepare daily?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Between Uncanny Forethought and Mage of the Arcane Order, you actually can have nearly any perfect counter ready to cast at any given time.

The Ancestral Relic (BoED) Runestaff (MIC p224) trick works for Wizards as well, though it's not as significant a boon as it is for spontaneous casters. It allows him to spontaneously convert prepared spells into the spells on his Runestaff, and he can freely choose whatever spells he wants to put on it since it's his Ancestral Relic. He can also meditate to switch around what spells it contains as though improving it, and if he replaces one spell with another of equal level then the time it takes to do so is multiplied by zero, so he doesn't even need to spend a free action on it. He needs to be in the area of a Hallow or Consecrate spell to do so, which can be accomplished with Incense of Consecration (BoED) or five levels in Sacred Exorcist (CD). Note that if using the latter, he's always in the area of his own consecrate effect so he can freely change one of his Runestaff spells to exactly the right spell for no action, then convert a prepared spell to spontaneously cast it.

With that in mind, Gray Elf, Domain Wizard 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 7/ Sacred Exorcist 5/ Incantatrix 3, Elf Generalist 1 sub level, trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard), Spontaneous Divination, Enchantment prohibited from Incantatrix.

He has Spellpool III from Mage of the Arcane Order and Uncanny Forethought and Consecrated Presence so he can instantly switch his Ancestral Relic Runestaff's spells and Metamagic Effect/Cooperative Metamagic for tons of persistent buffs every day. His Ancestral Relic gets upgraded for free because once they defeat a villain he sits down and meditates to sacrifice the villain's lair including all its traps and fixtures to add its value to the relic.

[Karnith]

I think that if we're going to be restricting cheese, we need to actually define what constitutes cheese. Are the big bad PrCs (e.g. Incantatrix, Spelldancer, Tainted Scholar) off the table? How about minionmancy, Crafted Contingencies, Celerity, Arcane Thesis, Shapechange, Uncanny Forethought, and so on?

Because it would be really annoying for someone to make an actual build (which takes quite a bit of work) and be met with "Oh, that's too cheesy, doesn't count."

I don't have a build of my own on-hand (well, an old Core-only build, but he's probably not what you're looking for), but builds like Cindy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14084622&postcount=50), Akakrin (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=7809), and the Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-%28Archiving%29) group were built for high-op, high-level play.

[eggynack]

Are free wishes considered the norm at the average gaming table?
(I'm not asking ironically, just wondering if I'm just that clueless)
Depends on the table, really, but at some point then, it just becomes a question of how far we can optimize without going over some arbitrary limit, and, of course, there are always other forms.


Anyway, your post sounds pretty vague. What contingencies would you set up? What's your gear? What spells do you prepare daily?

It honestly doesn't matter much, which is the point. Designing a fully kitted out 20th level wizard is fruitless when the answer is usually going to be "I have shapechange on," in just about any situation. For the record, solid contingencies, of the crafted variety, tend to be celerity off of an imaginary word based trigger, and some raise dead effect off of a death trigger, backed up by whatever you can think of off of other word-triggers.

[Seppo87]

I think that if we're going to be restricting cheese, we need to actually define what constitutes cheese. Are the big bad PrCs (e.g. Incantatrix, Spelldancer, Tainted Scholar) off the table? How about minionmancy, Crafted Contingencies, Celerity, Arcane Thesis, Shapechange, Uncanny Forethought, and so on?

Because it would be really annoying for someone to make an actual build (which takes quite a bit of work) and be met with "Oh, that's too cheesy, doesn't count."

I'm not going to set specific restrictions. Instead, anyone can decide wether it counts or not for them, based on their own table restrictions.

Your task as an anti-anti-mage builder is to make your build valid at as many tables as possible.

It is in your interest to convince people of your point of view, after all.

Everyone someone says "this is too cheesey for my table" you lost one supporter.

If you can't clearly show how you achieve your result without excessive amounts of cheese, you win technically but you lose morally.

TL;DR
less cheese will make your build shine more

[eggynack]

I'm not going to set specific restrictions. Instead, anyone can decide wether it counts or not for them, based on their own table restrictions.

Your task as an anti-anti-mage builder is to make your build valid at as many tables as possible.

It is in your interest to convince people of your point of view, after all.

Everyone someone says "this is too cheesey for my table" you lost one supporter.
That just feels like such a different challenge than the one it seems like you want. The ideal question isn't, "How do I cheese out as much as possible without making it look like cheese, and how far can I go before going too far?" but something like, "How does a wizard optimize against anti-mages?" The former just doesn't seem like a particularly interesting game.

[Seppo87]

That just feels like such a different challenge than the one it seems like you want. The ideal question isn't, "How do I cheese out as much as possible without making it look like cheese, and how far can I go before going too far?" but something like, "How does a wizard optimize against anti-mages?" The former just doesn't seem like a particularly interesting game.
I can't decide myself what is acceptable and what not.
I'm just stating the reality of things. Every reader will be his own judge, with arbitrary parameters.
You can say "I build pun-pun" but it would impress no-one because everyone will agree that it's way too easy that way.

If you want my personal opinion, most of the thing Karnith mentioned are quite cheesey. Most would be banned where I play. So I would be much more impressed by a more moderate approach.
Anyway this is not about convincing me.

If you want specific limitations, the optional "hard mode" in Op was limited to core only.

[eggynack]

Eh, the only build I currently have running through my head, particularly along the PO axis, is druid based rather than wizard based. He is a fellow I'm currently referring to as the malcondruid, for it is his drive to use the power of aberrations and maybe undead against those selfsame creatures. The essential idea, therefore, is gatekeeper initiate into aberration wild shape, providing the knowledge (dungeoneering) necessary to reliably have familiarity if that's necessary, and then you surround that with standard druid stuff. The undead mostly comes from daily rather than build resources, as such is their nature. I haven't decided whether the malcondruid uses prestige classes or not, but my current thinking about race is that it'll be anthro bat, to reflect his somewhat aberrant nature. Could be neat.

[iTreeby]

Core only seems like a good parameter for this contest, because I haven't seen this idea sufficiently explored.

[Story]

How prepared is an actual, adventuring spellcaster with limited prepared spells and wealth by level?

In one of the previous anti-mage threads, I once offered to do a fight using a 12th level Anima Mage from an actual campaign I played, though noone took me up on it. It doesn't have every trick, but it has enough tricks to give any mundane character a hard time, and this is despite the fact that it was built to be part of a party and not optimized for PvP at all.

[Gabrosin]

Isn't this basically just "how do you play your wizard"? Doesn't a mage always assume they will be dealing with anti-mages (i.e. everything they encounter) during the course of their adventures?

Even on a day where they're crafting or being social or doing something lacking in obvious danger, a high-level mage is going to have spells which allow them to teleport/plane shift away from an imminent threat, so they have time to prepare the appropriate counter-package.

[thethird]

Core only as a 9th lvl wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm) I've got access to lesser planar binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) which allows me to bind a creature with 6HD or less, such as a nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm). While riding the bound nightmare it can astral project (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) as a supernatural ability. While astral projected any defeat inflicted by the proverbial fighter would just wake me up. Since the astral plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm) is endless, finding me is night impossible. At this level nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) is available, and legend lore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) doesn't give any intel. This means that the wizard can't be defeated, while it might indeed "not win" death (or even resource expenditure) is night impossible.

[Karnith]

Core only seems like a good parameter for this contest, because I haven't seen this idea sufficiently explored.
Are you talking about limiting the whole exercise to Core-only, or just limiting the caster to Core options? Because one is interesting, and the other very much is not.

[eggynack]

Isn't this basically just "how do you play your wizard"? Doesn't a mage always assume they will be dealing with anti-mages (i.e. everything they encounter) during the course of their adventures?

Pretty much, though some special emphasis should probably be placed on bypassing darkstalker. Maybe get more than one way of defeating it, if possible.

[DeAnno]

"Core only" is actually kind of irrelevant if you want to filter cheese, most of the dumbest cheesiest stuff (Astral Projection and Shapechange and Wish exploits) is in Core. The only non-Core things mentioned so far that are on par with that collection are Tainted Scholar and Ice Assassin.

[Karnith]

"Core only" is actually kind of irrelevant if you want to filter cheese, most of the dumbest cheesiest stuff (Astral Projection and Shapechange and Wish exploits) is in Core. The only non-Core things mentioned so far that are on par with that collection are Tainted Scholar and Ice Assassin.
Nah, there are definitely non-core crazy things beyond Tainted Scholar and Ice Assassin, but limiting the exercise to core-only makes things vastly easier on the caster because there are essentially no anti-caster tactics to counter (beyond typical attack methods) in Core that don't rely on casting.

[AMFV]

"Core only" is actually kind of irrelevant if you want to filter cheese, most of the dumbest cheesiest stuff (Astral Projection and Shapechange and Wish exploits) is in Core. The only non-Core things mentioned so far that are on par with that collection are Tainted Scholar and Ice Assassin.

Mind Rape, Consumptive Field, Programmed Amnesia, Maw of Chaos (with the right tricks), Instant Refuge. There are more too, but those are the just the ones I could think off the top of my head.

[thethird]

On a more serious note, than the astral projecting lvl 9 wizard, my last arcane spellcaster that reached ECL 20 was as follows.

Born by the river of life he was tasked by the god of scribes and knowledge to gather a copy of all the spells, his quest was a difficult one, but he wouldn't falter.

Divine Minion (Thoth) Bamboo Spirit Folk (LA bought off at lvl 3)
lvl 1: Transmutation Domain Wizard (Animal Companion ACF; Martial Wizard ACF (gaining Improved Initiative))
lvl 2: Archivist (Scribe Scroll)
lvl 3: Archivist
lvl 4-10: Mystic Theurge
lvl 11-20: Arcane Hierophant

Feats of Note include Sanctum Spell, Alternate Spell source, Natural Spell, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), Echoing Spell, Divine Metamagic (Echoing Spell).

He would expend all its time, in an Ibis form (the favored form of Thoth) while his Baboon companion familiar (again favored animal of Thoth) would go around adventuring and stuff. All his buffs (both arcane and divine) were persisted (and Echoed) using Divine Metamagiced Persistent Echoing Extended Bone Talismans (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a).

Basically any buff spell that you could think of on any divine list or in the sor/wizard list was persisted on his person, and he had the full load out of spells still ready in case anything was dispelled.

[iTreeby]

Core only as a 9th lvl wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm) I've got access to lesser planar binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) which allows me to bind a creature with 6HD or less, such as a nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm). While riding the bound nightmare it can astral project (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) as a supernatural ability. While astral projected any defeat inflicted by the proverbial fighter would just wake me up. Since the astral plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm) is endless, finding me is night impossible. At this level nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) is available, and legend lore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) doesn't give any intel. This means that the wizard can't be defeated, while it might indeed "not win" death (or even resource expenditure) is night impossible.

you just removed yourself from society, have fun on the astral plane, watch out for githyanki and try not to run out of diamond dust.

Does nondetection protect you from legend lore? it's a personal spell that you cast on yourself. every spell that nondetection works on is based on detecting you, legend lore doesn't detect someone at long range or in a Cone-shaped emanation, it just tells you legendary stories.

[Karnith]

Mind Rape, Consumptive Field, Programmed Amnesia, Maw of Chaos (with the right tricks), Instant Refuge. There are more too, but those are the just the ones I could think off the top of my head.
Craft Contingent Spell, persistomancy and other metamagic abuse (e.g. through Incantatrix or Spelldancer), and planar silliness (e.g. Genesis) are some other big ones that aren't really available in Core.

[thethird]

you just removed yourself from society, have fun on the astral plane, watch out for githyanki and try not to run out of diamond dust.

Does nondetection protect you from legend lore? it's a personal spell that you cast on yourself. every spell that nondetection works on is based on detecting you, legend lore doesn't detect someone at long range or in a Cone-shaped emanation, it just tells you legendary stories.

Note that since I'm lvl 9 I'm not above lvl 11, and thus not legendary (i.e. that's why legend lore doesn't give information). Why would I need diamond dust?

[Flickerdart]

you just removed yourself from society, have fun on the astral plane, watch out for githyanki and try not to run out of diamond dust.
Silver swords are extremely rare, and githyanki spend absolutely zero time hunting down random people's astral cords. In addition (at least in 3.0, I don't know if this was changed) striking an astral cord with a silver sword gives the owner of the cord a save; failing the save ends the spell and returns him to his body unharmed.

As for hanging out on the Astral...you do know that you can leave the Astral Plane when Astral Projecting and have a duplicate body form for you? That's the entire point of the spell.

[eggynack]

In addition (at least in 3.0, I don't know if this was changed) striking an astral cord with a silver sword gives the owner of the cord a save; failing the save ends the spell and returns him to his body unharmed.
That's odd. I'd originally thought that it kills the caster, but it looks like it doesn't do that at all. You're basically just forcing the wizard to pay 1,000 GP, and taking an enormous risk in order to get him to do so. Also, gotta point out, you can apparently bring along your fellow adventurers for this astral projection, which I was oddly unaware of, so... hard mode complete? I guess you need a safe place for your bodies, which is more difficult without genesis, but that's not an impossible thing to pull off.

Edit: Wait, forgot the part about the nightmare. The wizard pays nothing as a result of his defeat.

[Amphetryon]

I would play this character in a real game, given the opportunity:


Glacier Dwarf Conjuration Specialist Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Master Specialist 5. STR 8 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 18 WIS 14 CHA 6

Variants: Focuses Specialist (CM; lose Illusion as well as Evocation/Enchantment; Incantatrix costs him Transmutation), Rapid Summoning (UA; lose Familar)

Feats (not in order): Scribe Scroll, Iron Will, Snowcasting, Deceptive Spell, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration), Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Augment Summoning, Icy Calling, Imbued Summoning, Craft Contingent Spell, Cloudy Conjuration, Lord of the Uttercold, Piercing Cold, Flash Frost Spell

Relevant Skills: Concentration, K(Arcana), K(Planes), Spellcraft maxed. 5 ranks Decipher Script. Add K(Nature), K(Dungeoneering), and K(Local) to taste. Season as needed

If the play-style of the above character needs more explanation, please say so.

[Flickerdart]

That's odd. I'd originally thought that it kills the caster, but it looks like it doesn't do that at all. You're basically just forcing the wizard to pay 1,000 GP, and taking an enormous risk in order to get him to do so. Also, gotta point out, you can apparently bring along your fellow adventurers for this astral projection, which I was oddly unaware of, so... hard mode complete?
If the cord is actually severed (as in, you opt to not fail the save and pass it, and then they break it) then you die. But until that happens, you get a ticket out of there.



I guess you need a safe place for your bodies, which is more difficult without genesis, but that's not an impossible thing to pull off.
Actually the thing with Astral Projection is that it only has provisions for returning to a body on the Material Plane. Moving your body anywhere else gets kind of dicey because the spell doesn't know what to do.

[Dorian Gray]

you just removed yourself from society, have fun on the astral plane, watch out for githyanki and try not to run out of diamond dust.

Does nondetection protect you from legend lore? it's a personal spell that you cast on yourself. every spell that nondetection works on is based on detecting you, legend lore doesn't detect someone at long range or in a Cone-shaped emanation, it just tells you legendary stories.

Not how it works. Astral Projection lets you leave your body behind and go to the Astral plane. But if your "new" body dies, you wake up in your actual body. So what you do is get to the Astral plane, cast Astral Projection, and then travel back to the material plane. Any time you "die", you just wake up and cast Astral Projection again.

Edit: swordsage'd

[gomipile]

It is commonly assumed that a wizard has all the counters ready at any given moment. While this is theoretically true, it can't be true in practice.

It doesn't really matter how practical it is. The assumption that the enemy always does what would be worst for you is very useful. It is so useful, in fact, that it has a name in game theory: the minimax decision rule, or just minimax, MinMax, MM, etc.

[Flickerdart]

The point isn't that every wizard will have every ability - it's that a mage slayer, a warrior focused on fighting spellcasters for a living, will sooner or later come across every trick in the book. If his defense against a potential defeat is "well I hope he doesn't do that" then he's already lost.

[thethird]

That's odd. I'd originally thought that it kills the caster, but it looks like it doesn't do that at all. You're basically just forcing the wizard to pay 1,000 GP, and taking an enormous risk in order to get him to do so. Also, gotta point out, you can apparently bring along your fellow adventurers for this astral projection, which I was oddly unaware of, so... hard mode complete? I guess you need a safe place for your bodies, which is more difficult without genesis, but that's not an impossible thing to pull off.

Edit: Wait, forgot the part about the nightmare. The wizard pays nothing as a result of his defeat.

Yep the nightmare not only reduces the cost to 0 it also reduces the necessary lvl from 17 to 9. Note that an artificer (with resource expenditure) can pull the trick at lvl 3.

[Threadnaught]

So here's the challenge: Build an ECL 20 full arcane character who is
-prepared for a standard adventuring day with his friends Core Fighter, Healbot Cleric, and Skillmonkey Rogue
-playable at a real table with a sane DM (cheese it with moderation)
-you would want to play it, or you actually did

Other users will then describe how they believe they could kill such a mage. You can employ as many of your resources to protect yourself from sudden assaults from angry anti-mages. You can assume your caster considers the chance a reality. Anyway, assume most anti-casters to be mind-blanked somehow.

Refer to Iron Chef Optimization Challenge for character creation rules.

Will your wizard survive?

note: While this might seem unfair, this is exactly the situation currently going on in the anti-mage threads, only backwards.
Also, should you actually demonstrate how your build is effectively invulnerable vs mundanes+WBL this would be, like, the ultimate victory

(optional) hard mode: make your caster core only

shall we begin?

Well I'm currently playing Xamnim who uses some of Emperor Win's tricks, along with a Bloodline, something he's outright stated he wouldn't touch.


Will your wizard survive?

Yes.

[Curmudgeon]

Silver swords are extremely rare ...
The exclusivity of Githyanki Silver Swords is described as possibly legend and rumor (Monster Manual, page 128) rather than RAW. So an individual DM is free to treat that as 100% real or 100% hype. If it's hype, the ability to sever an astral silver cord and kill the spellcaster with one blow is just another +1 cost property anyone can benefit from.

[thethird]

The phb has this line


If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically.
Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord (see the Dungeon Master’s Guide for more information).

I haven't been able to find the Dungeon Master's Guide information on the matter.

The monster manual 1, though, says:


High-level githyanki often take the Improved Sunder feat, using their silver swords to attack astral travelers’ silver cords (see the astral projection spell, page 201 of the Player ’s Handbook). The normally insubstantial cord is treated as a tangible object with the owner’s AC, hardness 10, and 20 hit points.

Still the manual of the planes has the following quote:


When the cord is damaged, the astral traveler must succeed
at a Fortitude save (DC 13) or be immediately forced to return to its body—which might be a good
idea anyway if the traveler is not up to fighting githyanki on their home plane. Severing the silver cord destroys both the astral form and the body on the Material Plane.

Note that manual of the planes is 3.0 (I believe). So I guess that the 3.5 PHB is incorrectly referencing the 3.0 DMG in the matter. From this I would conclude that apparently astral travelers do not get a save if their astral cords are attacked, at least in 3.5.

While imho the trick is still strong, it is something to take into account.

[Seffbasilisk]

I actually played a character based for this. It was in the wake of playing a mage-slayer (Changeling Barbarian/Warshaper/Occult Slayer) and while he was 'retired' (petrified, powdered, and scattered on the breeze), he wasn't 'dead' per-se, and I wanted my next character to be able to 'recruit' him, and so partially set the build to handle him.


I ended up with a Raksasha Sorcerer with the LA bought off (many many quests died for this dream) and a dip in Mindbender for the telepathy to fuel Mindsight.

The idea being to overwhelm his resistance by repeating mentally the mantra 'You will be my friend' and spamming detect thoughts while flying and greater invis'd. Once you have him, Mindrape, or even just carefully worded Suggestions to shape his desires into more suitable ones. Failing at that, Wings of Cover will buy time, and Wings of Flurry will smack'm about.