Building an apex predator - lots of assistance requested

[Silus]

Ok so I've been meaning to get around to crafting up an apex predator species for my little homebrew setting, but I'm kinda stumped as to how to get started.

I think my big issues are the following:


Figuring out how to do Ability scores. Do I just pick the base stats and modify by things like size or is there more to it?
Balancing out the special abilities in terms of power, usage, etc.
Calculating a rough DR
Sorting out how many Feats and Skills/Skill ranks to give the creature.


I confess I've never made a creature like this before, usually just taking an existing creature and fiddling around with one or two things.



XP 102,400
N Gargantuan Magical Beast
Init +7; Senses Darkvision, Scent; Perception +9
DEFENSE

AC 33, touch 10, flat-footed 28 (+3 dex, +23 natural, -4 size, +1 Dodge)(+4 vs AoO)
hp 265 (23d10+138)
Fort +26, Ref +23, Will +16
Immune Electricity
Weaknesses vulnerability to cold
OFFENSE

Speed 60 ft.
Melee 1 Bite +31 (3d8+12 plus trip), 2 Claws +31 (2d6+12 plus grab), 1 Tail Slap +29 (2d8+12)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 15 ft
Special Attack: Breath Weapon, Electrical Discharge, Pounce, Rake (2 claws +31, 2d6+12), Swallow Whole (2d6+18 plus 3d8 electricity, AC 21, 26 hp), Trample (2d6+18, DC 33)
STATISTICS

Str 34, Dex 17, Con 22, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 9
Base Atk +23; CMB +39; CMD 54 (58 vs trip)
Feats Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility, Wind Stance, Lightning Stance, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Nightstalker, Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Skill Focus (Stealth) (2 Feats left)
Skills Acrobatics +13, Climb +16, Perception +9, Stealth +8 (+20 in darkness), Survival +9; Racial Modifiers +4 Survival when tracking by scent, +4 Stealth
ECOLOGY

Environment The Poisoned Lands
Organization solitary or pair
Treasure None (Hide/chitin)
SPECIAL ABILITIES

Breath Weapon (EX): 120 ft. line, DC 27, 16d8 electricity, every 2d4 rounds
Electrical Discharge (EX):15 ft. burst, DC 27, 16d8 electricity
Lightning Stance: If you take two actions to move or a withdraw action in a turn, you gain 50% concealment for 1 round.
Wind Stance: If you move more than 5 feet this turn, you gain 20% concealment for 1 round against ranged attacks.
Nightstalker: While you are in areas of shadowy illumination or natural darkness, you ignore all size penalties to Stealth checks and instead gain a +2 bonus to Stealth checks.

The creatures known as "Blightning Wolves" are stabilized mutations that have cropped up in the last several hundred years in the section of the world known as The Poisoned Lands. While evolution and genetic mutation does take hundreds of thousands of years, Blightning Wolves have had the benefit of rampant magic and mutagenic radiation to thank for their rapid mutation and evolution.

Sizes range from ~44 ft upwards to ~67ft from the tips of their horned heads to the ends of their spiked, club-like tails, standing between 22-34ft at the shoulder. They only appear to be wolves in the barest of senses, sharing a handful of traits with canines. The rest however seems more akin to dragons and insects. Claws like butcher knives, fangs like daggers and chitinous armor plating covering it's front and hind legs, shoulders, back, tail and head. As tough as it would appear, the Blightning Wolf's main power lies in the cone-shaped protrusions that, when not active, lie flat along its back, covered by whitish-grey fur. These protrusions act as biological capacitors, allowing the Wolf to generate several electrical effects, ranging from lines of lightning to explosive area of effect blasts. These abilities have helped set up the Blightning Wolf as a top tier apex predator in the Poisoned Lands, a land that is rife with robots, mutants and massive vermin.

Typically a solitary creature, Blightning Wolves have been known to travel with a breeding mate from time to time. No nests or dens have ever been found, though not many people have bothered searching for one, as doing so would undoubtably attract unwanted attention. Blightning Wolves are also extreme omnivores, feasting of meat, plant, insect and even varieties of robot they bring down. How they gain sustenance from mechanical constructs is still unknown.

While difficult as hell to kill, due to their speed and durability, they are in fact killable and their hide and chitinous plating makes excellent light weight, electric resistant armor. Finding someone to work the material however is difficult (though not impossible in the right locations).

Blightning Wolf Hide: Technically a combination of hide, fur and chiton, the body of a Blightning Wolf can be used to make both armor and weapons that share its electrical resistances and even some of its electrical output. Armor made of the hide is treated as "Druid friendly", and as such may be turned into items such as Full Plate Mail and other typically metal items. In addition, armor comes with Electric Resistance of 10, 15 and 20 for Light, Medium and Heavy armor, and Shields receive Electric Resistance 5. Weapons made of the chiton receive an innate, non-magical +1d4 Electric damage that stacks with magical effects. All items made of a Blightning Wolf's hide and chiton weight 20% less than average. A typical Blightning Wolf corpse can make roughly (1d4 weapons or 1d6 light weapons) and (3 suits of medium Light armor, 2 suits of medium Medium armor, or 1 suit of medium Heavy armor). As it is hard to obtain, purchasing items made of Blightning Wolf cost 250% the cost of a Masterwork quality item of the same type. Blightning Wolf equipment always counts as Masterwork.


And yes, this thing is based pretty heavily off the Zinogre (http://monsterhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Zinogre) from Monster Hunter.

[gr8artist]

Look in the bestiary. There are some general guidelines there.
You pick your target CR and the creature typetype. That gives you the number of HD and the target stats and bonuses (should have X health, Y bonus on attack rolls,n and Z armor class, etc.)
Target HP and number of hit dice should give you an idea on what Con should be, which determines DCs.
Keep str and con in the same neighborhood, and dex as appropriate by size.

[Silus]

Look in the bestiary. There are some general guidelines there.
You pick your target CR and the creature typetype. That gives you the number of HD and the target stats and bonuses (should have X health, Y bonus on attack rolls,n and Z armor class, etc.)
Target HP and number of hit dice should give you an idea on what Con should be, which determines DCs.
Keep str and con in the same neighborhood, and dex as appropriate by size.

It's really that easy?! :smalleek::smallbiggrin:

Some quick questions though:

How much would special abilities (Like the electric blast + lightning line) affect CR?

Does the Dex need to be appropriate for the size? I was sorta aiming for a sort of "Holy cap how can that thing move that fast?!" type of creature.

Are Skills and Feats just sorta by "This seems about right"?

[Diachronos]

Are Skills and Feats just sorta by "This seems about right"?

Feats are pretty much just 1/2 their HD, rounded down if they have an even number or up if they have an odd number and discounting bonus feats. Usually you'd want it to be something thst makes sense, like Weapon Finesse on something with more Dex than Strength.

Skill points depend on the creature's type and Intelligence, and predators tend to have things like Survival and Perception as their main (or "class") skills, maybe with Stealth if they stalk their prey and Climb/Swim depending on their environment.

[DracoDei]

What edition is this for?

I'm assuming Pathfinder?

[gr8artist]

There's no good rule for special abilities, but decide how often he can use it and factor it in to his damage per round.
For example, at CR Y a creature is supposed to deal about X damage per round (we'll use 20). You decide that lightning blast is usable once every 4 rounds, for 6d6 damage per use. You expect it to hit at least 2 people, and you can expect 1 to make a save. Your 6d6 is 21 on average, or 10 on a save. So, it deals about 30 damage per use. Since you're supposed to average 20 per round, and 1/4 rounds you're averaging 30, you should drop his melee damage to compensate or buff him to the next CR.

[Stellar_Magic]

I tend to like to go with my personal set of rules to give a rough approximation of how many HD and how big a creature of X size and weight should be. I'll probably go into detail on it another time... but I can give you some estimates.

Assuming this creature has the same weight to body length ratio as a Wolf, it will weigh in at 168,000 lbs or around 84 tons... If it was a conventional animal I'd give it an absolutely enormous number of Hit Die. However this information does give me a baseline to give you some stats to use. Basing the mental attributes roughly off those of the Winter Wolf and my calculations for other values gives us these for the attributes.

Str 34, Dex 8, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 9

I'd go with 22 or 23 Hit Die, and make it a CR 17, so here are some of the rest of the stats for a CR 17 version, anyway.

AC 28, touch 5, flat-footed 28 (-1 dex, +23 natural, -4 size)
126 hp (23d10), Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +8

Melee 1 Bite +31 (2d8+12 plus trip), 2 Claws +31 (2d6+12), 1 Tail Slap +26 (2d8+12)
Special Attacks Breath Weapon (120 ft. line, DC 21, 16d8 electricity, every 2d4 rounds), Electrical Discharge (15 ft. burst, DC 21, 16d8 electricity)

BaB +23, CMB +39 (+43 to trip), CMD 48
12 Feats of your choice.
23 Skill Points of your choice.

[Silus]

Oh my God you guys are, like, the best. Like no joke.

*Gets to adding in the information provided by Stellar-Magic*

Edit: Tacking on Pounce, Grab and Rake.

[gr8artist]

The picture you posted looked a little blurry, like there was mist or the energy around the creature distorted it.
For feats, consider wind stance/lightning stance.
Spring attack on a pouncing creature could be... terrifying.
Also, there's ~ something ~ that allows you to turn into lightning when you make a charge or dash. That could be a lot of fun. Or give it a dimension door SLA and give it the dimensional dervish/assault/etc. line for massive battlefield wtf's.
Can't go wrong with power attack and ability focus.
The metamagic SLA line, like quicken spell-like ability, would be awesome and might make sense.

[Silus]

The picture you posted looked a little blurry, like there was mist or the energy around the creature distorted it.
For feats, consider wind stance/lightning stance.
Spring attack on a pouncing creature could be... terrifying.
Also, there's ~ something ~ that allows you to turn into lightning when you make a charge or dash. That could be a lot of fun. Or give it a dimension door SLA and give it the dimensional dervish/assault/etc. line for massive battlefield wtf's.
Can't go wrong with power attack and ability focus.
The metamagic SLA line, like quicken spell-like ability, would be awesome and might make sense.

Improved Initiative is totally on the list, as is a Skill Focus or two (if there's space).

I'll see what I can muster up in terms of shenanigans. The goal for this thing is to have it hunt Annihilator Robots (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/robot/robot-annhiliator) for food, likely as a two-monster team.

As for the mist, in Monster Hunter, a Zinogre actually uses Thunderbugs (Think a firefly mixed with a taser) to generate its electricity. This version uses biological capacitors to generate theirs >.>

Edit: Do monsters need to qualify stat-wise for feats? Like I'm looking at Lightning Stance and it requires a 17 Dex.

[Stellar_Magic]

Glad to be of help, oh and this is the damage for Rake attacks for this guy.

Rake (2 claws +31, 2d6+12)

Also, as something of a house rule I run with anything that's Gargantuan or bigger and a predator, really should have Swallow Whole... To use Swallow Whole, the bite attack should also have the grab special property. I'd have the special ability setup this way.

Swallow Whole (2d6+18 plus 3d8 electricity, AC 21, 26 hp)

A wolf this big merely would have to run over where you are to do damage... Ergo Trample.

Trample (2d6+18, DC 33)

Do monsters need to quality for feats? Well... Normally I'd say yes, but a lot of the monsters in the Bestiary have feats they don't qualify for... so just be careful.

[Silus]

Glad to be of help, oh and this is the damage for Rake attacks for this guy.

Rake (2 claws +31, 2d6+12)

Also, as something of a house rule I run with anything that's Gargantuan or bigger and a predator, really should have Swallow Whole... To use Swallow Whole, the bite attack should also have the grab special property. I'd have the special ability setup this way.

Swallow Whole (2d6+18 plus 3d8 electricity, AC 21, 26 hp)

A wolf this big merely would have to run over where you are to do damage... Ergo Trample.

Trample (2d6+18, DC 33)

Do monsters need to quality for feats? Well... Normally I'd say yes, but a lot of the monsters in the Bestiary have feats they don't qualify for... so just be careful.

Well I may up its Dex to at least +10, give it a bit more oomph and a positive Touch AC.

Also the feats I was thinking of would be:

Improved Initiative
Lightning Stance
Wind Stance
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Ability Focus (Lightning Breath)
Ability Focus (Electric Discharge)
Multiattack
Stealthy
Nightstalker

Can't figure out what to do with the last feat though.

[Stellar_Magic]

Multiattack... It reduces the penalty for the Tail Slap being a secondary weapon to -2 instead of -5.

[Silus]

Multiattack... It reduces the penalty for the Tail Slap being a secondary weapon to -2 instead of -5.

Already picked up Multiattack, though I'm kinda considering switching it out, and using the last feat, for Skill Focus (Stealth) and (Perception).

Edit: Also, would appreciate thoughts on the Blightning Wolf Hide special material I just mocked up:

Blightning Wolf Hide: Technically a combination of hide, fur and chiton, the body of a Blightning Wolf can be used to make both armor and weapons that share its electrical resistances and even some of its electrical output. Armor made of the hide is treated as "Druid friendly", and as such may be turned into items such as Full Plate Mail and other typically metal items. In addition, armor comes with Electric Resistance of 10, 15 and 20 for Light, Medium and Heavy armor, and Shields receive Electric Resistance 5. Weapons made of the chiton receive an innate, non-magical +1d4 Electric damage that stacks with magical effects. All items made of a Blightning Wolf's hide and chiton weight 20% less than average. A typical Blightning Wolf corpse can make roughly (1d4 weapons or 1d6 light weapons) and (3 suits of medium Light armor, 2 suits of medium Medium armor, or 1 suit of medium Heavy armor). As it is hard to obtain, purchasing items made of Blightning Wolf cost 250% the cost of a Masterwork quality item of the same type. Blightning Wolf equipment always counts as Masterwork.

[gr8artist]

I think he was saying multiattack was a suboptimal choice. WF (tail slap) is almost as good, and its one of the worst feats in the game. It would work better if you had more than 1 secondary attack.
Give it haste as an SLA or 1d6 electric damage on all attacks, then give it a sub-par feat to compensate.
I still love improved natural attack, especially on really big monsters.

[Stellar_Magic]

Improved Natural Attack really is the best choice for most monsters, as it usually amounts to about +4 or +5 to each damage roll.

Lets see +16 to Stealth, -12 due to being Gargantuan... So average stealth check result is around 14 then? This guy needs a major racial bonus to Stealth checks if you want him to be an ambush fighter.

[Silus]

Improved Natural Attack really is the best choice for most monsters, as it usually amounts to about +4 or +5 to each damage roll.

Lets see +16 to Stealth, -12 due to being Gargantuan... So average stealth check result is around 14 then? This guy needs a major racial bonus to Stealth checks if you want him to be an ambush fighter.

Actually Nightstalker (the feat) negates the size penalty in dim light or darker.

I'll switch out for Imp Natural attack as soon as I am able. Does it only apply to one attack or to all the attacks?

[gr8artist]

Only one, like weapon specialization.

[Silus]

Something someone in another thread mentioned about this creature is that the skills seem to be a bit on the low side. Should I see about upping them at all?

[Stellar_Magic]

Maybe... At CR 17 we should expect it to combat level 16-18 characters. I know a lot of people (with any sense) will put 1 rank in Perception per level, meaning they'll have around a +20 on Perception checks. If you want to have the creature be stealthy (at least in the dark) then you'll need to probably give it a +4 Racial Bonus to Stealth checks.

This would give it around a 50% chance of being able to avoid initial detection by one character of that level. Of course with a party making checks, it probably would still get detected, but this would give it a better chance of being able to spring an ambush.

Also, you should probably mark the Stealth skill +8 (+20 in Darkness) just for clarity that it's dependent on darkness.

Edit: I just noticed, since you went with 22 Con, you need to add a +6 to the DC of the Breath Weapon and Electrical Discharge.

[Silus]

Maybe... At CR 17 we should expect it to combat level 16-18 characters. I know a lot of people (with any sense) will put 1 rank in Perception per level, meaning they'll have around a +20 on Perception checks. If you want to have the creature be stealthy (at least in the dark) then you'll need to probably give it a +4 Racial Bonus to Stealth checks.

This would give it around a 50% chance of being able to avoid initial detection by one character of that level. Of course with a party making checks, it probably would still get detected, but this would give it a better chance of being able to spring an ambush.

Also, you should probably mark the Stealth skill +8 (+20 in Darkness) just for clarity that it's dependent on darkness.

Edit: I just noticed, since you went with 22 Con, you need to add a +6 to the DC of the Breath Weapon and Electrical Discharge.

Righty-o *Goes to make the changes* And since the DC for the abilities has gone up considerably, would it be safe to switch out the Ability Focuses for Improved Natural Attack?

[Stellar_Magic]

Sure, Improved Natural Attack (bite)... Not sure about the second feat to use.

[Silus]

Sure, Improved Natural Attack (bite)... Not sure about the second feat to use.

How about just some old standbys like Toughness and (I can't believe I didn't pick this up) Power Attack?